Mormons are doing something right; what is it?

[Parrothead]

Released time for religious education is not unique to Utah, nor is it limited to LDS students. The requirements in Utah include that classes be organized by a legally established church, that parental permission be given for students to attend these classes, and that the classes themselves and their teachers are not associated with the public schools. While LDS seminaries make up the majority of the released time programs in Utah, other denominations are increasingly taking advantage of the law.

 

From your account it isn't clear if you and your friends were trying to attend a class organized by a church or if you were trying to set up your own independent study group. I think the two situations would be treated differently, but I'm not an expert on the laws.

 

Here's an article about released time religious instruction programs in Utah and other states.

There was something similar in NY in the mid-70s. I (and other kids) got sent to Catholic school from public school for religious ed. We went once a week for the last hour of school.

[MamaSheep]

...

Mama Sheep, I know this thread is not about Mainstream Christian beliefs, but I just had to stop and respond when I read this. I don't know if this is your understanding of what all or most Protestant Christians believe...

 

Oh no! Not at all! I am aware that there is a very broad variety of belief on these issues among Christian traditions and denominations. It IS an actual belief system I have encountered, but I definitely don't see it as being representative of "all or most" Protestant faiths. In fact, from my observations and experience I'd probably categorize it as a minority sub-segment of the evangelical tradition (...not sure if "tradition" is the right word there...oh well, it's the best I can come up with right now, it's been a long day...). I was trying to pick an attitude that I see as a fairly dramatic contrast to LDS thinking so as to draw an easy comparison in order to illustrate a point. It wasn't in any way intended as a summary of typical Christian belief.

 

Thank you for giving me the chance to clarify that. :)

 

Also just wanted to say that I do love Mormon people, and so much about the culture and values. I have had Mormon

friends all my life. I think there is much to be learned from the organization and culture your church has produced.

 

And I love non-Mormon people. I think there is value and some truth in all religious traditions, and I love it when we can find common ground and work together. I've learned a lot from my non-LDS friends too.

[Maverick_Mom]

Just finding this and coming in late. I don't know that I have much of anything to add (I know...weird for me, huh...lol). We definitely are very much mere mortals with struggles and suffering and sins and weaknesses and room for growth in a lot of areas. And we have our share of people who struggle in areas that affect other people negatively. I do think that both the teachings of the church and the structure of its organization are helpful in promoting peace and stability for individuals, families, and larger communities (though obviously there is room for improvement on all those levels as well).

 

And I hope you know you can always ask me anything. :) I don't promise to have all the answers, and I don't promise that the answers I have will be ones people will like, but you can always ask.

 

Amy, thank you for your post. I'm sorry that anyone has had unpleasant encounters with LDS members -- if it happens enough times, one can (fairly or not) begin to attribute it to the group. And that is certainly not limited to LDS members -- heck, I left a nonsectarian homeschooling group for that reason. I haven't had any of these unplesasant experiences with LDS members (I also have never been west of the Mississippi River, except for an unintended airport layover in Minneapolis :D) -- but as I said before, I've just felt that what I have seen in LDS families is worth emulating. And this might sound heretical for a lifelong Protestant like me (the thought just came to me), but I think that other churches could learn something from those who are LDS. We don't have to adopt everything they believe -- but my goodness, when I look at what is happening in so many families in churches around me, some inspiration from a new source where families seem so strong could be a very good thing.

 

Oh, two more questions:

1. What do LDS members prefer to be called?

2. What do you know of the divorce rate among Mormons?

Edited August 1, 2012 by Maverick_Mom

[ednkirstin]

The requirements in Utah include that classes be organized by a legally established church, that parental permission be given for students to attend these classes, and that the classes themselves and their teachers are not associated with the public schools.

We did meet all of these requirements. We were trying to establish it through our church, but were denied. I'm not sure when these laws came into being, but perhaps they came after my time (I graduated in 1995). Either that, or I was just not well informed enough to really go after it.

 

Also, I was not aware that "release time" for religious instruction was something allowed anywhere else for other religions. So I appreciate the clarification. I'm glad to know that it's not entirely exclusive to the LDS church, but Utah is definitely the only place I've seen it.

[MamaSheep]

Amy, thank you for your post. I'm sorry that anyone has had unpleasant encounters with LDS members -- if it happens enough times, one can (fairly or not) begin to attribute it to the group. And that is certainly not limited to LDS members -- heck, I left a nonsectarian homeschooling group for that reason. I haven't had any of these unplesasant experiences with LDS members (I also have never been west of the Mississippi River, except for an unintended airport layover in Minneapolis :D) -- but as I said before, I've just felt that what I have seen in LDS families is worth emulating. And this might sound heretical for a lifelong Protestant like me (the thought just came to me), but I think that other churches could learn something from those who are LDS. We don't have to adopt everything they believe -- but my goodness, when I look at what is happening in so many families in churches around me, some inspiration from a new source where families seem so strong could be a very good thing.

 

Oh, two more questions:

1. What do LDS members prefer to be called?

2. What do you know of the divorce rate among Mormons?

 

 

Yes, it makes me sad when I hear of times when people have had unpleasant encounters with LDS people who are not living up to the teachings of our church. And I can certainly see how those bad experiences can get generalized to the whole group, and can understand when people feel cautious about us as a result. I wish things could be different, but I suppose as long as we're imperfect human beings it's bound to happen sometimes. My dh had a bad experience with a group of LDS Boy Scouts when he was young that left him with a bad impression of the church. It was the reason he skipped over us during the period of his life he refers to as his "great church search" and didn't learn more about us until several years later. He still carries some resentment toward those kids, whoever they were (he didn't know them, it was at a big scout camp), because of the years he COULD have had what he has now, and didn't because he received such a mistaken impression of what the church is like from their inappropriate actions. But yeah, stuff like that can happen in any group, and it's sad when it does. I'm glad you haven't had negative experiences with LDS people.

 

Utah does have a little bit of a "reputation" even within the church for having a greater number of people who don't know how to handle themselves gracefully in mixed company, and people who tend to belong to the church more out of habit or for social reasons than because they really believe (or have even really thought about it). My sister once jokingly pointed out that when Brigham Young was calling people to go start settlements all over the West, and to go on foreign missions and such, the ones who lacked the faith, or the commitment, or the courage to go stayed in Utah. Snide snicker. Honestly, I was a little hesitant to raise my kids here--Utah was number 3 on my list of places never to live because I'd met too many people from Utah who were very self-righteous about their Mormonism, but at the same time extremely under-educated in the doctrines of the church (because they were apathetic about it), and that's a combination that aggravates me, and which I would not want to find in my own kids. (For pity's sake, don't be condescending toward other people because they don't believe things you haven't bothered to understand yourself.) But I must say that having lived here for a few years has helped me see that while there are definitely problems here that are specific to having a high population density of LDS, there are benefits as well, and most of the people I've met here are very sincere, genuine, kind, and gracious individuals. And I think with the specific kids God sent us, He was wise to bring us here for this season of our lives. I have been humbled and have appreciated the opportunity to overcome some prejudices I can see I was harboring about Utahns. There are good people everywhere, and there are jerks everywhere. And some of both are LDS. :) But honestly and truly, it's safe to cross the Mississippi. It's even safe to enter Utah. And stay a while. (Though I can understand people's discomfort at finding themselves in a minority when they're not accustomed to it. Where I grew up some people didn't let their kids play with our family because we were Mormon, my mother was pointedly un-invited from a women's group, and a local pastor's boys beat up my little brother with their father's blessing. Sometimes it stinks to be in a minority because even if most of the "majority" people are really, really nice, it seems like there's always a bad apple or two out there that want to make your life miserable just because they can.)

 

But I'm with you, I think it's a good idea to learn from other people.

 

And to (finally) answer your other questions (:)):

 

1) We usually prefer to be called Latter-day Saints, or LDS. We call ourselves "saints" in the same "dedicated to God" sense that Christ's followers in the early church used it, not in the more formal, canonized, "person of exceptional holiness" sense in which it has come to be used in some churches, btw--it doesn't mean we think we're any better than other people, it's just a term that means we've made a commitment to God.

 

Generally speaking we're not "offended" by being called Mormons, and we even refer to ourselves that way sometimes. "Mormon" is a nickname that was originally applied to us by outsiders because we accept the Book of Mormon as scripture. We believe that Mormon was a prophet in the ancient Americas--he was a wise and brave man, and it's no shame to be associated with him, but we don't worship Mormon, and it's not Mormon's church, it's the Church of Jesus Christ.

 

On a more practical level, there are other groups that use the term Mormon to refer to themselves that are not affiliated with the LDS church, and using "LDS" instead of "Mormon" helps make the distinction between groups a little more clear to outsiders. For example, because a lot of people in the media have referred to the FLDS people and leaders as "Mormons" in various news reports and talk shows, I have occasionally been accused of being dishonest and deceitful when I have insisted that the LDS church does not allow polygamy, and that I do not believe that Warren Jeffs is a prophet. The problem was that the accusers really had no idea that the FLDS "Mormons" belong to a completely different church than the one I belong to, and that FLDS is not just a sub-set of LDS.

 

I do have a couple of personal pet peeves--one is when people spell it "Morman" as if it were similar in construction to "mailman" or "policeman", which bugs me because it's a guy's name, not a type of occupation. Another is when media reporters refer to the church as "The Church of the Latter-day Saints". I understand their desire to shorten the name--"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" IS sort of long and unwieldy, even if it is appropriately descriptive--and I understand that there are lots of churches with "Jesus Christ" in their names, but it irritates me that in abbreviating it they leave out the most important part of the name. It's like abbreviating "The Well-Trained Mind" by referring to it as "The Well". Kind of misses the point. But those are personal petty gripes, and I wouldn't worry about them too much. I can be nice to people who call me a Morman (though I confess I might not be able to resist a private eye-roll and a wee bit of speculation as to a non-gender-specific construction like "Morperson"; call it a weakness). :)

 

2) I think the last statistics I heard about the divorce rate among Latter-day Saints showed that the divorce rate for couples married in the LDS church but outside of the temple was slightly lower than the national average, but not to a particularly statistically significant point. The divorce rate among LDS couples married in the temple was significantly lower than the national average, but I don't recall specific numbers. The study I read attributed the lower divorce rate among LDS members with temple marriages to the fact that those married in the temple have a higher rate of similarity of belief between the two spouses, as well as previously established patterns of behavior that they would have in common. The high level of commonality of belief and lifestyle was said to contribute to stability in the marriages. I think there's some truth to that.

Edited August 2, 2012 by MamaSheep

[garddwr]

We did meet all of these requirements. We were trying to establish it through our church, but were denied. I'm not sure when these laws came into being, but perhaps they came after my time (I graduated in 1995). Either that, or I was just not well informed enough to really go after it.

 

Also, I was not aware that "release time" for religious instruction was something allowed anywhere else for other religions. So I appreciate the clarification. I'm glad to know that it's not entirely exclusive to the LDS church, but Utah is definitely the only place I've seen it.

 

I don't think the laws have changed since the early 1980's, but I can easily believe that you were dealing with school administrators who were uninformed and unwilling to make the effort to think beyond established programs and procedures. It sounds like you should have been able to do what you were trying to do, and I can certainly understand your frustration in being denied unfairly.

There's actually an organization devoted to helping churches set up released time programs throughout the country. Their website outlines the rules and regulations in various states, if you're interested. I think it is a model that many families and religious organizations would like to be able to take advantage of.

Here's the website: http://www.releasedtime.org/sitert/

[Elizabeth in MN]

We are taught that Lucifer was cast out for wanting the ultimate nanny state. ;) So to speak.

 

Uh, again - no. Lucifer was cast out for wanting to take away free will from people. Don't try and muddy the religious waters with political posturing.

 

Callings aren't necessary mandatory, and you CAN turn them down. BUT, there is a lot involved in that.

 

Firstly, Joseph Smith said, "When the Lord commands, do it." For me, that means a calling as well. If God is omniscient, then he would not call me to do something that I can not do.

 

Secondly, we have been taught "Whom the Lord calls, the Lord qualifies." If I turn down that calling I lose the opportunity to grow and be blessed.

 

Thirdly, we are taught to "magnify our callings," which means we shouldn't be doing them halfheartedly. Rather, we should think about it, pray about it, prepare for it, etc. This serves me well in other forms of service. It is easy to apply the same model to other service I perform.

 

And, discussing structure, turning down a calling leaves other people in a lurch. Accepting a calling helps MANY, not just those you are directly called to serve. For example, I am primary president (I guess basically in charge of children's church and cub scouts). It is a BIG calling. I typically commit at least 10 hours a week to this calling physically and a LOT of prayer and thought. Recently, we have had some issues filling callings...especially people turning down callings. When I don't have teachers or cub leaders, I have to take more time to fill that spot (or someone else does), the kids don't get the consistency they deserve, and it's stressful constantly finding someone to sub. I'm actually speaking about this in church in a few weeks because it has become that much of a problem. :(

 

See, this is the attitude that makes me inactive. I was called to be the social director for the church. I'm an Agorophobe with extreem Soical Anxiety, which the branch president knew at the time. I believed in the calling and did it. When putting together a potluck I called every member, as I was told to do. I'd call and be perky and give the information. I could get about three calls done before I had a panic attack and spent an hour vomiting in the toilet from stress. I managed to call every member in a week. It was said to be the best potluck the branch ever had. Me? I couldn't leave the house for a month afterwards. The phone would ring and I would shake and cry. No one can tell me G-d had anything to do with that calling.

[Maverick_Mom]

Uh, again - no. Lucifer was cast out for wanting to take away free will from people.

 

 

I was taught that Satan's sin was seeing himself as God's equal and rebelling against Him.

[Maverick_Mom]

MamaSheep, thanks for your explanations. And what you said about commonality of beliefs being a possible stabilizing factor in marriages makes a lot of sense.

[LittleIzumi]

I was taught that Satan's sin was seeing himself as God's equal and rebelling against Him.

 

That's a huge part of it too, definitely.

[2squared]

Also, I was not aware that "release time" for religious instruction was something allowed anywhere else for other religions. So I appreciate the clarification. I'm glad to know that it's not entirely exclusive to the LDS church, but Utah is definitely the only place I've seen it.

 

We have it in our county. Our Catholic parish has elementary religious education Wednesday afternoons during the school day. The kids are released 30-60 minutes early. I don't know if other churches in town use early release too.

 

Our school district also keeps Wednesday evenings free for older kid religious education. All the churches in town hold religious instruction for junior high - high school kids on Wed nights.

[MamaSheep]

MamaSheep, thanks for your explanations. And what you said about commonality of beliefs being a possible stabilizing factor in marriages makes a lot of sense.

 

You're welcome. :) I do think that having similar expectations and pulling in the same direction make a difference in family stability. If the spouses are pulling off in different directions, toward incompatible goals, or are having important expectations unmet because the other partner is unaware of them, or unwilling to meet them, it tends to destabilize things. Of course there's no guarantee that someone's not going to make a shift in belief or direction after being married in the temple, or that a person who was married in the temple was unsincere in his/her professions of belief at the time of the marriage, but I do think that if both people are clear about things up front and are in agreement about where they want to "go" with the marriage, the chances of success are improved.

 

 

I was taught that Satan's sin was seeing himself as God's equal and rebelling against Him.

 

We understand the rebellion to be along the lines of seeing himself as knowing better than God, and attempting to take God's place. And we believe a major point of contention was whether or not free will should be allowed during mankind's mortal existence. We believe a war ensued over the matter, which Satan lost, and he along with those who followed him were cast out, permanently.

Edited August 2, 2012 by MamaSheep

[readinmom]

The ones that I have had in class have been amazing. They are respectful, smart, reflective, etc. They are very open about their faith, also. Earlier in the year we were analyzing some text, and a young man stayed after to talk. He said he felt the scripture classes he had taken had helped him with his analysis skills.

 

I don't know what it is, but I wish I could have more students like this! My favorite student just finished his first year at BYU and will start his mission in the fall. All of his brothers were top 5 students, accomplished athletes, and just all around great kids.

[gardenmom5]

I was taught that Satan's sin was seeing himself as God's equal and rebelling against Him.

 

actually, it was worse than that. He rebelled, yes, but he rebelled because he wouldn't accept "no" for an answer after his plan was rejected. so, he tried to force his will on everyone else. (we believe one of our greatest gifts is agency - satan wanted to take it away by force.) His goal - was in the end to DEthrone God. (and basically take over and "have the glory for himself.")

 

quote from President Benson's april '89 conference talk "Beware of Pride" -

"In the pre-earthly council, Lucifer placed his proposal in competition with the Father’s plan as advocated by Jesus

Christ. (See Moses 4:1–3.) He wished to be honored above all others. (See 2 Ne. 24:13.) In short, his prideful desire was to dethrone God. (See D&C 29:36; D&C 76:28.)"

[Esperella]

My experiences in Utah County have been horrible, I've already posted them so I don't need to do it again. I love a lot of people in the LDS church, almost my entire family is LDS. I have a lot of issues with the church itself, though.

 

I find it strange that it's surprising that people who aren't LDS are treated differently or poorly in Utah, because it's been the experience of most of the people I know here. I have definitely met a lot of nice LDS people here. I've found on an individual level the people here are very sweet. If I meet someone at the park, they're friendly and surprised we have a lot in common, they often open up to me about very personal things, which at first surprised me, but I know now they know I wont gossip back to their ward. But as far as hanging out in a group situation, or being close friends, it's not going to happen. In all fairness, I think this may have a lot to do with me being an ex member.

 

In my experiences in the church, you DO get shunned if you dont accept your calling. All the time spent at church has caused people I know to burn out. Or they are put in callings they have no qualifications for (my aunt was supposed to council troubled first nations girls and had no idea how to) can be very stressful.

 

I've learned that though the image of the LDS is squeaky clean, in my experiences the good people are equal to the "bad". There are extremely high rates of pornography addictions, prescription drug addictions, bankruptcy, high debt to income ratios, one of the highest uses of anti depressants and of anorexia. Also for being so anti LBGT, I know a lot of closet gay men, who are married and have children, and boyfriends on the side. You'd be surprised. There is a reason SLC was the gay capital of the US. What is most heartbreaking to me is looking at the suicide rates or attempted suicide rates of LBGT college students here.

 

The LDS people I grew up with wore homemade clothes, canned everything from a huge garden, had 0 debt, tons of kids, the more typical "mainstream" mormon. Here in Utah, everyone wears designer clothes, TONS of make up, tons of plastic surgery, everyone drives escalades or suburbans (new). There is such a pressure to be perfect (to uphold this image you're talking about!) that women are expected to have tons of babies, maintain their size 2 jeans, putting in all their time at the church, living in a 4000+ square foot house that is spotless, drive a brand new car, tithe their 10% and have perfect children. I talk to a lot of women who share these pressures with me. It really breaks my heart. Their husbands are also very stressed trying to provide all of this on 1 income.

 

Oh, and I call bullcrap on the LDS church not supporting candidates. While that may be what they say to keep their tax exempt status, its obvious they're supporting Romney. DH talks about how people at his work get so upset when you talk about voting for Obama. I can only imagine how hard it would be to be an Obama dem. in this election.

 

*disclaimer: I am in no way saying that this is all LDS, all LDS in Utah, or based on/caused by church teachings. These are simply my observations and experiences. I know there are "bad" catholics, protestants, muslims, bad apples of every religion. I promise I'm not trying to insult or hurt anyone's feelings.

[Sara in AZ]

I find it strange that it's surprising that people who aren't LDS are treated differently or poorly in Utah, because it's been the experience of most of the people I know here. I have definitely met a lot of nice LDS people here. I've found on an individual level the people here are very sweet. If I meet someone at the park, they're friendly and surprised we have a lot in common, they often open up to me about very personal things, which at first surprised me, but I know now they know I wont gossip back to their ward. But as far as hanging out in a group situation, or being close friends, it's not going to happen. In all fairness, I think this may have a lot to do with me being an ex .

 

I've learned that though the image of the LDS is squeaky clean, in my experiences the good people are equal to the "bad". There are extremely high rates of pornography addictions, prescription drug addictions, bankruptcy, high debt to income ratios, one of the highest uses of anti depressants and of anorexia. Also for being so anti LBGT, I know a lot of closet gay men, who are married and have children, and boyfriends on the side. You'd be surprised. There is a reason SLC was the gay capital of the US. What is most heartbreaking to me is looking at the suicide rates or attempted suicide rates of LBGT college students here.

 

The LDS people I grew up with wore homemade clothes, canned everything from a huge garden, had 0 debt, tons of kids, the more typical "mainstream" mormon. Here in Utah, everyone wears designer clothes, TONS of make up, tons of plastic surgery, everyone drives escalades or suburbans (new). There is such a pressure to be perfect (to uphold this image you're talking about!) that women are expected to have tons of babies, maintain their size 2 jeans, putting in all their time at the church, living in a 4000+ square foot house that is spotless, drive a brand new car, tithe their 10% and have perfect children. I talk to a lot of women who share these pressures with me. It really breaks my heart. Their husbands are also very stressed trying to provide all of this on 1 income.

 

Esperella, I grew up in a less affluent family in an affluent part of Salt Lake. I have lived away for 13 years and it's taken me a while to detox from that environment where everyone seems so perfect on the outside and it mattered what car you drove and what you wore to church. We are debating moving back, and I really want to be near my family, but I am nervous about coming back to that pressure to conform and present a perfect portrait to the world. I absolutely think this is the culture, not the religion. But as members of the religion we do place high expectations on ourselves. (and I don't want to make it sound like there weren't many, many wonderful, sincere, and nurturing people in my life growing up because there were.)

 

But, I do cringe a little when I hear such glowing reviews of LDS church members (although I think they are valid and deserved), coupled with explanations of why we are so wonderful and successful and amazing, without the balancing viewpoint that we are also human like everyone else, and that most of us don't do all those things perfectly all the time. I believe that we should be constantly striving (that is an important word for me) to do our best to live up to the teachings we espouse, and that in the end all of that is between ourselves and the Lord. We shouldn't be wasting time comparing ourselves to anyone else or judging anyone else's choices or weaknesses because goodness knows it's a full time job dealing with the cards each of us have been dealt.

[Xuzi]

Oh, and I call bullcrap on the LDS church not supporting candidates. While that may be what they say to keep their tax exempt status, its obvious they're supporting Romney. DH talks about how people at his work get so upset when you talk about voting for Obama. I can only imagine how hard it would be to be an Obama dem. in this election.

 

 

 

While yes, most LDS MEMBERS are supporting Romney, I'm not sure how you can extend that to say that the CHURCH, as an organization, is supporting him. I haven't heard Pres. Monson, or any of the other General Authorities say "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints endorses Mitt Romney for President". He has many *individual members* endorsement, yes, and there's no question he'll win Utah's delegates in November, but it's not because the Church organization has told them to do so. (although I'll admit there's a lot of cultural pressure, and Mormons more often than not lean to the Right, but it's not against Church teachings to lean to the Left, despite what some overly-zelous political members might think).

[garddwr]

While yes, most LDS MEMBERS are supporting Romney, I'm not sure how you can extend that to say that the CHURCH, as an organization, is supporting him. I haven't heard Pres. Monson, or any of the other General Authorities say "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints endorses Mitt Romney for President". He has many *individual members* endorsement, yes, and there's no question he'll win Utah's delegates in November, but it's not because the Church organization has told them to do so. (although I'll admit there's a lot of cultural pressure, and Mormons more often than not lean to the Right, but it's not against Church teachings to lean to the Left, despite what some overly-zelous political members might think).

 

:iagree: It seems I have heard that the church tells General Authorities not to contribute to or endorse political candidates even in their capacity of private citizens, because they don't want to accidentally send the message that the church is endorsing someone. Members are free to support, endorse, contribute to whomever they want, just as every free citizen can do. And while there is a general trend towards conservativism among members of the LDS church (as among practicing members of many other churches) it is far from universal.

[DianeW88]

Here in Utah, everyone wears designer clothes, TONS of make up, tons of plastic surgery, everyone drives escalades or suburbans (new). There is such a pressure to be perfect (to uphold this image you're talking about!) that women are expected to have tons of babies, maintain their size 2 jeans, putting in all their time at the church, living in a 4000+ square foot house that is spotless, drive a brand new car, tithe their 10% and have perfect children. I talk to a lot of women who share these pressures with me. It really breaks my heart. Their husbands are also very stressed trying to provide all of this on 1 income.

 

:lol::lol::lol:I only wish this were true, because if it were, then someone clearly owes me a brand new Escalade. Oh, and a size 2 body. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[MamaSheep]

:lol::lol::lol:I only wish this were true, because if it were, then someone clearly owes me a brand new Escalade. Oh, and a size 2 body. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Me too. Not to mention a designer wardrobe, a much bigger home with a housekeeper, and several more children.

 

I don't think anyone here has claimed that every member of the LDS church is perfect. In fact I think we've all pointed out that we have our share of people with problems. The church isn't a country club where we sit around congratulating each other on how amazingly perfect we are (although yes, there is a small segment of people who kind of treat it that way), it's a place we can go for help and support in dealing with the various challenges life throws at us, including our own moral struggles. I do like that the church has established programs that help people with the kinds of challenges Esperella listed, and even helps people pay for counseling if they need it. But yeah, we have our share of people with problems, sometimes even big problems. (Although I would guess that even Esperella would agree that "everyone" was a bit of hyperbole on her part.)

 

I have to say it bothers me a bit when people harp on antidepressant use as if it were a "bad" thing on the level of pornography addiction, and evidence of moral deficiency of some kind. One of my kids is on an SSRI medication that helps immensely with his anxiety disorder and OCD, and it hurts my heart that some people out there stigmatize him for needing medication. Having a chemical imbalance is not a moral problem, even if it happens to be in your brain instead of your pancreas. He's a great kid and shouldn't be shamed for seeking help.

[LittleIzumi]

The LDS people I grew up with wore homemade clothes, canned everything from a huge garden, had 0 debt, tons of kids, the more typical "mainstream" mormon. Here in Utah, everyone wears designer clothes, TONS of make up, tons of plastic surgery, everyone drives escalades or suburbans (new). There is such a pressure to be perfect (to uphold this image you're talking about!) that women are expected to have tons of babies, maintain their size 2 jeans, putting in all their time at the church, living in a 4000+ square foot house that is spotless, drive a brand new car, tithe their 10% and have perfect children. I talk to a lot of women who share these pressures with me. It really breaks my heart. Their husbands are also very stressed trying to provide all of this on 1 income.

 

Oh, and I call bullcrap on the LDS church not supporting candidates. While that may be what they say to keep their tax exempt status, its obvious they're supporting Romney. DH talks about how people at his work get so upset when you talk about voting for Obama. I can only imagine how hard it would be to be an Obama dem. in this election.

 

*disclaimer: I am in no way saying that this is all LDS, all LDS in Utah, or based on/caused by church teachings. These are simply my observations and experiences. I know there are "bad" catholics, protestants, muslims, bad apples of every religion. I promise I'm not trying to insult or hurt anyone's feelings.

 

Now that first paragraph I absolutely see every day out here. However, I choose to hang out with my hippie friends instead of that sort of crowd--I wouldn't fit in there and would be miserable to even try. I live in a mobile home, dress my kids in thrift store finds, and don't even know where my old makeup ended up, lol. And I voted for Obama. In Utah (like there was a point to that vote. Sigh). But there are plenty of like-minded people out here, LDS and not. No one in LDS churches is supposed to be talking about politics from any sort of leadership position, at all, ever. However, it is sometimes talked about in individual congregations. I pass the bean dip & then complain about it with my hippie friends later. :tongue_smilie: But "the church" itself does NOT support any candidate. I assume if I lived in a liberal state, there would be a lot more individual chatter about Obama, but living in a conservative state it's the opposite. Although I actually haven't heard ANYTHING about Romney at all in any church setting since he became a candidate. All that was said was make sure to go to the primaries and make your voice heard, and go to the meetings beforehand to learn about the candidates. That sounds right to me.

[Denisemomof4]

I only know one mormon. She is NOT a good person at all. She fights with all her neighbors and is a troublemaker anytime she can be one. She has four grown kids and I never, ever see them visit her and her dh, ever.

 

When we went on vacation seven years ago, my neighbor, another trouble maker, told me this woman dug up all my flowers. Since said neighbor is also a trouble maker, I didn't believe her. Well, every summer I get P!SSED OFF as I drive by her house and see all her lush flowers. They are all the same flowers I used to grow.

 

She is also a lunch cook at an elementary school. She is NASTY to the kids.

 

I wish I could get over my anger but every summer I am livid. I have no choice but to drive by her house to get out of here. Every stinking summer I am livid. I mo longer have lush gardens. I am afraid to spend money now.

[mommaduck]

 

I have to say it bothers me a bit when people harp on antidepressant use as if it were a "bad" thing on the level of pornography addiction, and evidence of moral deficiency of some kind. One of my kids is on an SSRI medication that helps immensely with his anxiety disorder and OCD, and it hurts my heart that some people out there stigmatize him for needing medication. Having a chemical imbalance is not a moral problem, even if it happens to be in your brain instead of your pancreas. He's a great kid and shouldn't be shamed for seeking help.

That is not what is being said. When a large portion of a sub-culture is on anti-depressants, then there is a problem that needs to be looked at. I experienced the exact same thing in a particular Mennonite community. EVERY. WOMAN. was on anti-depressants. There was the same struggle to be the perfect (or "worthy") wife and mother. You had to do it all with a smile. You were judged on every little thing. Gossip was rampant. There was little to no privacy. I confronted the minister and his wife on the gossip issue. The response was, "you should consider going on anti-depressants to help you conform to the community." Yes, those EXACT words!

[LittleIzumi]

That is not what is being said. When a large portion of a sub-culture is on anti-depressants, then there is a problem that needs to be looked at. I experienced the exact same thing in a particular Mennonite community. EVERY. WOMAN. was on anti-depressants. There was the same struggle to be the perfect (or "worthy") wife and mother. You had to do it all with a smile. You were judged on every little thing. Gossip was rampant. There was little to no privacy. I confronted the minister and his wife on the gossip issue. The response was, "you should consider going on anti-depressants to help you conform to the community." Yes, those EXACT words!

 

:ack2: No anti-depressants needed here (and I don't frankly care if someone else has an Escalade, lol) but hubby has finally, after over 30 years of struggle, gone on medication for adult ADD like his brother who lives in Canada. And he'll still be on it when we move after he graduates.

[Maverick_Mom]

it's extremely narrow minded to categorize how a certain religion is "doing something right." So then, what's to stop us from stereotyping certain ones as doing something wrong? I find the whole thing mind boggling. What's the difference in saying they tend to be "bad" because of the Mountain Meadows massacre?

 

I respectfully disagree. I think it's the essence of open-mindedness to give credit where credit is due, even if you do not agree with everything a group stands for.

 

A pattern may be mere coincidence -- or it may signify something that deserves closer examination. If I notice that the LDS homeschoolers I have had contact with seem to demonstrate certain qualities that I admire, more so than homeschoolers in my own faith, then I want to know if they have something in common with one another that is cultivating those qualities.

 

In terms of the Mountain Meadows massacre, I don't think that works as an analogy. That is one incident. My interactions with LDS homeschoolers consist of more than one person and ongoing observations of behaviors that I admire. If there were multiple incidents like the Mountain Meadows massacre, and if they occurred within the mainstream LDS community, then yes, I would say that the LDS community must be doing something wrong.

[Bluegoat]

That is not what is being said. When a large portion of a sub-culture is on anti-depressants, then there is a problem that needs to be looked at. I experienced the exact same thing in a particular Mennonite community. EVERY. WOMAN. was on anti-depressants. There was the same struggle to be the perfect (or "worthy") wife and mother. You had to do it all with a smile. You were judged on every little thing. Gossip was rampant. There was little to no privacy. I confronted the minister and his wife on the gossip issue. The response was, "you should consider going on anti-depressants to help you conform to the community." Yes, those EXACT words!

 

 

I think that this sort of thing can be one of the reasons for the kind of high level of participation the OP mentioned. It isn't the only one by any means, but it can be a real factor IMO.

 

I haven't seen it really with Mormons because I'm not that involved in Mormon culture, but I have seen it in the JW community and the Mennonite community here.

 

There is a real commitment to the beliefs of the church, there is a real desire to serve, but it seems to me like it can also be related to a real pressure to conform within the community as the only way to really belong to the community, and sometimes a lot of emphasis put on outward appearances.

 

Group identification can be a powerful tool, and it has some truth behind it I think, but it can be abused or get out of control as well.

[MamaSheep]

That is not what is being said. When a large portion of a sub-culture is on anti-depressants, then there is a problem that needs to be looked at. I experienced the exact same thing in a particular Mennonite community. EVERY. WOMAN. was on anti-depressants. There was the same struggle to be the perfect (or "worthy") wife and mother. You had to do it all with a smile. You were judged on every little thing. Gossip was rampant. There was little to no privacy. I confronted the minister and his wife on the gossip issue. The response was, "you should consider going on anti-depressants to help you conform to the community." Yes, those EXACT words!

 

 

I think examining the reasons is a great idea. I don't like the jumping to conclusions I see, though. For example, it could be a matter of a higher percentage of people in Utah seeking appropriate medical treatment for an illness instead of self-medicating with alcohol and other substances, as is known to happen in the general population. Or, as I'm told by medical professionals that depression is thought to have a genetic component, it could be that there was a genetic "bottleneck" during the pioneer days that has produced, over time, a population in Utah with a higher genetic probability of developing depression. (If that's the case, condemning the culture for producing higher rates of depression is a little like condemning a culture for producing higher rates of sickle cell anemia.) We won't know without further research. It would be interesting to see, for example, how anti-depressant use by actual LDS members, both in and out of Utah shakes out, as opposed to taking stats from a Utah population that includes native Utahns and imports, both LDS and non-LDS.

[mommaduck]

I think examining the reasons is a great idea. I don't like the jumping to conclusions I see, though. For example, it could be a matter of a higher percentage of people in Utah seeking appropriate medical treatment for an illness instead of self-medicating with alcohol and other substances, as is known to happen in the general population. Or, as I'm told by medical professionals that depression is thought to have a genetic component, it could be that there was a genetic "bottleneck" during the pioneer days that has produced, over time, a population in Utah with a higher genetic probability of developing depression. (If that's the case, condemning the culture for producing higher rates of depression is a little like condemning a culture for producing higher rates of sickle cell anemia.) We won't know without further research. It would be interesting to see, for example, how anti-depressant use by actual LDS members, both in and out of Utah shakes out, as opposed to taking stats from a Utah population that includes native Utahns and imports, both LDS and non-LDS.

You can compare it to other similar groups and to see if there is a connection other than genetics as well. Genetics will typically be only up a certain percentage. Greater percentages tend to indicate and outside force. There are commonalities, culturally or socially aka expectations, that the LDS do share with JW's and particular Anabaptist groups (also noted in certain other sub-sects, various IFB, Reformed, and "bible" churches).

Edited August 2, 2012 by mommaduck

[MamaSheep]

You can compare it to other similar groups and to see if there is a connection other than genetics as well. Genetics will typically be only up a certain percentage. Greater percentages tend to indicate and outside force. There are commonalities, culturally or socially aka expectations, that the LDS do share with JW's and particular Anabaptist groups (also noted in certain other sub-sects, various IFB, Reformed, and "bible" churches).

 

Yes, there are a lot of interesting angles that could be explored if we refrain from leaping to conclusions.

[mommaduck]

Yes, there are a lot of interesting angles that could be explored if we refrain from leaping to conclusions.

I didn't see any conclusion assumed. What conclusion assumed did you read? Or are you presuming an implication? I was stating what I did from a sociological perspective.

 

ftr: I have not had this experience with Mormons (at least not any knowledge of it). I will state that it would not surprise me if it IS the case in certain areas of Utah.

[Lisbeth]

Meh, a little late, but in my ward, "Lucifer was cast out for socialism" is said in unofficial capacities ALL of the time. In fact, I get the very strong sense that many feel it is the Adversary's trickery that would convince people to turn over their agency to the gov. I have heard the sentiment 'Jesus said give to the poor, not give to the Roman government to give to the poor." As a former Lub, yes, I would've seen red over that at one time, myself.Lub=Lib, ph won't let me correct...As for candidate support...Romney is huge of course. But not officially. Harry Reid is barely tolerated. The Consitution is seen as a sacred document.

Perhaps at some future date we will see a Conservative and Reform version. It would be sad, but, fascinating sociologically speaking. Ie, how interesting to watch how each did after that with their differing values on diff measures of success.

[Elizabeth in MN]

I can only imagine how hard it would be to be an Obama dem. in this election.

 

It really does make you rethink the whole "no alcohol" issue. :lol:

 

Legally no church with a tax-exempt status can endorse any political candidate. If they did they would loose their tax-exempt status. My branch is *very* clear that there can be no talk of political issues at church. We Mid-Western LDS tend to be a bit different. IMO there is some sort of internal mark on is because we're not in Utah. I haven't been able to totally figure it out just yet.

[LittleIzumi]

:lol::lol::lol:I only wish this were true, because if it were, then someone clearly owes me a brand new Escalade. Oh, and a size 2 body. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

And then again, we also see moms out here right in the trenches with the rest who you would have no idea have a big house or a fancy car. So it does go both ways.

 

(And I think it's ridiculous to say socialism is evil because it involves giving the government money to feed the poor, when we're expected to donate fast offerings to fund the bishop's storehouse to feed the poor anyway. IMHO. I'm sure others might feel differently. )

Edited August 2, 2012 by LittleIzumi

[Heidi]

And then again, we also see moms out here right in the trenches with the rest who you would have no idea have a big house or a fancy car. So it does go both ways.

 

(And I think it's ridiculous to say socialism is evil because it involves giving the government money to feed the poor, when we're expected to donate fast offerings to fund the bishop's storehouse to feed the poor anyway. IMHO. I'm sure others might feel differently. )

 

The govt takes our money by force. That is what LAW is, force. I give my money voluntarily to the bishops storehouse, by my own free will. There is a huge difference.

[Esperella]

MamaSheep, I'm saying this with love and kindness. I have no interest in arguing with you, and I understand if you take everything I say as an offense or attack on your church/state. My first interactions here, with you, I was a very angry bitter person about the way my family and I were treated in Utah. It is very frustrating that when people complain about it, instead of just saying, "I know it happens, it shouldn't, and I'm sorry", it turns into a discussion of all the other bad people in the world who don't represent their religion. Anyway, I'm sorry if I've stepped on your toes. I'm just being honest about my experiences. I used to be so angry at everything about Utah, but as I've had more and more women open up to me about how much they're struggling with trying to keep up and be "perfect", my anger is (mostly) gone and I'm more heartbroken for the pain these people are going through.

 

Obviously I meant the "everyone here" as hyperbole. I live in a house where the floors are falling in with no air conditioning, in a mostly LDS neighborhood of similar houses. Growing up in Idaho I'd heard of the Utah "fancy Mormons", but had no clue until I got here and saw it first hand. Feel free to disagree that is a huge part of the culture here. Your experiences may be entirely different, and that's fine. I'm not trying to change your mind about anything. I even added a disclaimer saying that I knew this was not every mormon. I'm so not at a point in my life right now where I want to bicker and have to be defensive.

 

I never said anything negative about antidepressants. I was on wellbutrin for years, have encouraged my friends to take it, and am on adderall right now for ADHD. I have horribly anxiety that I used to take xanex for, but I'm now trying to combat it with prayer (which works sometimes haha). Nothing I said was meant to be an attack on your son. If you wanted to take what I said as comparing it to porn addiction, fine, but that's not what I meant and I apologize if that's how it came across. It was late last night and I'd had some wine, so, yeah.

 

LittleIzumi, you seem much more like the LDS people I grew up with, my great grandma was a total hippy.

[Crimson Wife]

I'm told by medical professionals that depression is thought to have a genetic component, it could be that there was a genetic "bottleneck" during the pioneer days that has produced, over time, a population in Utah with a higher genetic probability of developing depression. (If that's the case, condemning the culture for producing higher rates of depression is a little like condemning a culture for producing higher rates of sickle cell anemia.) We won't know without further research. It would be interesting to see, for example, how anti-depressant use by actual LDS members, both in and out of Utah shakes out, as opposed to taking stats from a Utah population that includes native Utahns and imports, both LDS and non-LDS.

 

Aren't a lot of LDS families (especially in Utah) of Scandinavian descent? There is a stereotype that Scandinavians are prone to depression so there may be something to the idea that many have a genetic predisposition towards developing the condition.

[Esperella]

Aren't a lot of LDS families (especially in Utah) of Scandinavian descent? There is a stereotype that Scandinavians are prone to depression so there may be something to the idea that many have a genetic predisposition towards developing the condition.

 

yes, definitely! That's a very interesting point.

[Lisbeth]

"Satan argued that men given their freedom would not choose correctly therefore he would compel them to do right and save us all. Today Satan argues that men given their freedom do not choose wisely; therefore a so-called brilliant, benevolent few must establish the welfare government and force us into a greater socialistic society. We are assured of being led into the promised land as long as we let them put a golden ring in our nose. In the end we lose our freedom and the promised land also. No matter what you call it--communism, socialism, or the welfare state--our freedom is sacrificed. We believe the gospel is the greatest thing in the world; why then do we not force people to join the Church if they are not smart enough to see it on their own? Because this is Satan's way not the Lord's plan. The Lord uses persuasion and love."

 

(Elder Ezra Taft Benson, former President

 

This view is still a dominant one.

From D&C, also ..."Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer. "

[Elizabeth in MN]

"Satan argued that men given their freedom would not choose correctly therefore he would compel them to do right and save us all. Today Satan argues that men given their freedom do not choose wisely; therefore a so-called brilliant, benevolent few must establish the welfare government and force us into a greater socialistic society. We are assured of being led into the promised land as long as we let them put a golden ring in our nose. In the end we lose our freedom and the promised land also. No matter what you call it--communism, socialism, or the welfare state--our freedom is sacrificed. We believe the gospel is the greatest thing in the world; why then do we not force people to join the Church if they are not smart enough to see it on their own? Because this is Satan's way not the Lord's plan. The Lord uses persuasion and love."

 

(Elder Ezra Taft Benson, former President)

 

This view is still a dominant one.

 

From D&C, also ..."Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer. "

 

I don't like ETB. His talks are full of hate mongering, prejudice and unjustified judgement IMO. He also worked for Eisenhower, who many view as the worse president in US history.

 

In addition to my view I'd like to point out some facts - the Doctrine and Covenants are SCRIPTURE, but ETB talks are not. He was not a prophet of the church, so his words do not carry that extra weight.

[MamaSheep]

I didn't see any conclusion assumed. What conclusion assumed did you read? Or are you presuming an implication? I was stating what I did from a sociological perspective.

 

ftr: I have not had this experience with Mormons (at least not any knowledge of it). I will state that it would not surprise me if it IS the case in certain areas of Utah.

 

I see several assumed conclusions.

 

One assumed conclusion is that higher antidepressant sales in an area means there is a higher rate of depression in that area.

 

Another explanation might be that there is a fairly typical rate of depression, but that more of the people with depression are receiving antidepressants for treatment rather than going untreated, or seeking other kinds of treatment.

 

Also, since the comparison data that shows a higher consumption of antidepressants tends to be drawn from private insurance claims filed, and doesn't include medications provided through Medicare, Medicaid, or individuals purchasing medications without insurance, it could just mean that the area in question has a greater level of private insurance coverage for mental health problems.

 

Another assumed conclusion is that because Utah has a relatively high LDS population, and a high rate of antidepressant consumption, LDS people must consume more antidepressants than other people. However, as I'm sure you'll agree, correlation does not necessarily indicate causation.

 

Nearly half of the population of Utah is non-LDS, and not all people who identify as LDS have a high level of religious participation. There is no reason to "assume" that it's the staunchly religious LDS people in the state who are consuming most of the antidepressants. Furthermore, other states that have a relatively large LDS population, such as Arizona and Idaho, have a significantly lower consumption of antidepressants.

 

In the same initial study that revealed Utah as number one in consumption of antidepressants, Utah also ranked in the top three for thyroid medications, anti-rheumatics, anti-convulsants, and narcotic pain killers. Yet people don't generally argue that Mormonism is bad for your thyroid and gives you arthritis.

 

Another assumption is that if LDS people really do consume more antidepressants, and if this is because they have a higher rate of depression (both of which are assumptions), then the presumed higher rate of depression among LDS "must" be due to cultural pressure to conform within the group, particularly for LDS women, since antidepressant consumption is higher among women in Utah than among men (which is hardly surprising since depression, in general, seems to be more prevalent in women than in men).

 

But research shows that Mormon women are actually LESS likely to be depressed than the general population. http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-04-02-mormon-depression_x.htm

Edited August 2, 2012 by MamaSheep

[Heidi]

Esperella, I agree with most of your post on utah mormons. I saw what you saw. There is a lot of materialism and a mormon culture that has nothing to do with the actual gospel. I have family that lives in huge homes and have the nicest cars and clothing and certainly seem to only go through the motions of living the gospel, but imo don't actually live it (fron utah). Where I grew up (ga), it is not cool to be mormon, so you only do so if you truly believe and want that lifestyle. You either lived your religion or you didn't., you know? None of my lds peers went through the motions.

I moved to utah after highschool and really struggled with the culture. I did t like the fakeness of it all. However, the culture of the church and the gospel of Jesus Christ are two seperate things. The gospel of Jesus Christ moves those who live it to become better people. Those who are trying to keep up the image of righteousness or try to keep up with the joneses.. yeah, they are going to struggle because they are not living the gospel. Being materialistic is not living the gospel.

[LittleIzumi]

Aren't a lot of LDS families (especially in Utah) of Scandinavian descent? There is a stereotype that Scandinavians are prone to depression so there may be something to the idea that many have a genetic predisposition towards developing the condition.

 

There are a lot of blondes in Utah, certainly. :lol: That's an interesting possibility. I don't have pioneer heritage so I've never looked into that.

 

From D&C, also ..."Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer. "

 

And technically you have to either be employed 30+ hours a week or be looking for a job 30+ hours a week or have children below school age to receive typical government assistance in Utah. That doesn't sound idle to me. ;) I'm going to bow out on the political conversation now though--I didn't mean to derail the thread in this way. My apologies.

[MamaSheep]

MamaSheep, I'm saying this with love and kindness. I have no interest in arguing with you, and I understand if you take everything I say as an offense or attack on your church/state. My first interactions here, with you, I was a very angry bitter person about the way my family and I were treated in Utah. It is very frustrating that when people complain about it, instead of just saying, "I know it happens, it shouldn't, and I'm sorry", it turns into a discussion of all the other bad people in the world who don't represent their religion. Anyway, I'm sorry if I've stepped on your toes. I'm just being honest about my experiences. I used to be so angry at everything about Utah, but as I've had more and more women open up to me about how much they're struggling with trying to keep up and be "perfect", my anger is (mostly) gone and I'm more heartbroken for the pain these people are going through.

 

Obviously I meant the "everyone here" as hyperbole. I live in a house where the floors are falling in with no air conditioning, in a mostly LDS neighborhood of similar houses. Growing up in Idaho I'd heard of the Utah "fancy Mormons", but had no clue until I got here and saw it first hand. Feel free to disagree that is a huge part of the culture here. Your experiences may be entirely different, and that's fine. I'm not trying to change your mind about anything. I even added a disclaimer saying that I knew this was not every mormon. I'm so not at a point in my life right now where I want to bicker and have to be defensive.

 

I never said anything negative about antidepressants. I was on wellbutrin for years, have encouraged my friends to take it, and am on adderall right now for ADHD. I have horribly anxiety that I used to take xanex for, but I'm now trying to combat it with prayer (which works sometimes haha). Nothing I said was meant to be an attack on your son. If you wanted to take what I said as comparing it to porn addiction, fine, but that's not what I meant and I apologize if that's how it came across. It was late last night and I'd had some wine, so, yeah.

 

LittleIzumi, you seem much more like the LDS people I grew up with, my great grandma was a total hippy.

 

I have no interest in bickering either. Your inclusion of antidepressant use in a list of "bad" things about LDS people in Utah seemed negative to me, but if you say it was not intended that way, I'll believe you and leave it at that. I do agree that perfectionistic materialism is part of a segment of the culture here, but I suspect that how "huge" it seems depends on who you hang with. But that has seemed to be part of "affluent" segments of the culture everywhere I've lived, and I guess I don't see it as specifically LDS just because the people who live like that in Utah happen to be LDS, whereas the people I've observed doing the same things elsewhere were not. I think it's cultural, but more of an affluence culture than an LDS culture. So I don't agree that it's "caused" by the LDS church. But I'm happy to agree to disagree about that and move on. :) (Although I will just quickly add that it ANNOYS me more when it's LDS people because I think they should know better. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming)

Edited August 2, 2012 by MamaSheep

[MamaSheep]

Aren't a lot of LDS families (especially in Utah) of Scandinavian descent? There is a stereotype that Scandinavians are prone to depression so there may be something to the idea that many have a genetic predisposition towards developing the condition.

 

I did not know that about Scandinavians being stereotypically prone to depression. Huh. Yes, Utah is crawling with tall, skinny, blonde, athletic Viking types. The town we live in was founded by Icelandic immigrants, and still has enough ties that the president of Iceland came a few years back to participate in the town's rededication of its Icelandic settler monument, which was very well attended. (I tend to run more in the short, plump, dark-haired, pasty-skinned Scottish genetic vein, myself.)

Edited August 2, 2012 by MamaSheep

[Galatea]

I don't like ETB. His talks are full of hate mongering, prejudice and unjustified judgement IMO. He also worked for Eisenhower, who many view as the worse president in US history.

 

In addition to my view I'd like to point out some facts - the Doctrine and Covenants are SCRIPTURE, but ETB talks are not. He was not a prophet of the church, so his words do not carry that extra weight.

 

I was definitely taught my whole life, and it was certainly taught throughout the Church in Utah that the President was indeed a prophet. That is the one of the founding, core tenets of the Mormon Church -- that it is led by a prophet actively speaking to God.

[Elizabeth in MN]

(I tend to run more in the short, plump, dark-haired, pasty-skinned Scottish genetic vein, myself.)

 

You can come sit on the couch with me, too. Though I'm 5' 7" with a bit of Danish in me. I'm a convert, though ; )

[Xuzi]

I was definitely taught my whole life, and it was certainly taught throughout the Church in Utah that the President was indeed a prophet. That is the one of the founding, core tenets of the Mormon Church -- that it is led by a prophet actively speaking to God.

 

And you're right. :) A distinction some people point out, is that the most fiery of Pres. Benson's talks (such as the one quoted in this thread) were given while he was an *Elder*, and his rhetoric toned down significantly when he began to carry the mantel of Prophet, when his words began to take on significantly more weight. I was born shortly before he became the Prophet, and he was the Prophet during my childhood, and by the time I was old enough to understand who he was, he had the reputation of being the "Book of Mormon Prophet" because he spent a considerable amount of time encouraging the membership to read it and understand it. It wasn't until I was into adulthood that I learned how fiery he used to be. All the talks of his that I have memories of were very mellow, and Gospel focused.

[Elizabeth in MN]

I was definitely taught my whole life, and it was certainly taught throughout the Church in Utah that the President was indeed a prophet. That is the one of the founding, core tenets of the Mormon Church -- that it is led by a prophet actively speaking to God.

 

Oh wait, I stand corrected. He was a prophet. That'll teach me to click down rather than scroll down on a Wikipedia article.

 

That correction made, ETB as a prophet still does not overrule scripture.

[MamaSheep]

You can come sit on the couch with me, too. Though I'm 5' 7" with a bit of Danish in me. I'm a convert, though ; )

 

Hey cool! I would be happy to sit on the couch with you. Even though you are taller than I am. And I love converts. I married one. :)

[MamaSheep]

And you're right. :) A distinction some people point out, is that the most fiery of Pres. Benson's talks (such as the one quoted in this thread) were given while he was an *Elder*, and his rhetoric toned down significantly when he began to carry the mantel of Prophet, when his words began to take on significantly more weight. I was born shortly before he became the Prophet, and he was the Prophet during my childhood, and by the time I was old enough to understand who he was, he had the reputation of being the "Book of Mormon Prophet" because he spent a considerable amount of time encouraging the membership to read it and understand it. It wasn't until I was into adulthood that I learned how fiery he used to be. All the talks of his that I have memories of were very mellow, and Gospel focused.

 

Something else that it's important to understand is that while a prophet's comments on gospel-related topics do carry extra weight, their personal opinions on things like their favorite sports teams, restaurants, or political parties are not considered prophetic utterances. And it's entirely possible to have a different opinion on things like that and still support the man as a prophet.