When do you start a formal writing program?

[Mom2OandE]

At what age did you start your child in a formal writing program and what program did you use?

 

Thanks.

[kalanamak]

I started at 7.5 with WWE1. We finished WWE3 about halfway thought 4th grade an am working on smoothness, recall, and spelling before restarting WWE 4. HTH.

[Murphy101]

3rd or 4th grade ish

[serendipitous journey]

I'm unhappy with Button's writing -- both handwriting and composition -- compared to his peers with similarly-educated parents and in the sorts of brick-and-mortar schools he'd be in if he weren't homeschooled. He is currently in the summer btw. first and second grades; we have done roughly WTM-style first grade narration and copywork, including WWE1 and part of 2 and also narrations and copywork related to our literature, history and science; but no letter-writing.

 

I've begun using Evan-Moor's Daily 6 Trait Writing for first grade over this summer. I do not esp. like the format, nor the topics for writing (I re-assign the projects with topics of our choosing -- planets, say, instead of their "dog bone") but his mechanics are definitely improving so this seems a fine choice. I plan to use it through the summer since I have it, but for this sort of product if I were buying again I'd try the Zaner Bloser Strategies for Writers program (see below).

 

When we start second I'll be using Wordly Wise 3000 (on grade level) which is a vocabulary program that includes a writing component. I will also be adding an explicit writing component. Zaner-Bloser has a program that's gotten favorable mention on these boards and I considered (there are 2 components, Strategies for Writers and G.U.M. (for Grammar, Usage and Mechanics) which begin in second grade; an earlier version of Strategies, available on the ZB website, has books for K and 1 also) but I prefer a cleaner page layout than the ZB samples and am leaning toward the "Writing Skills" program which targets beginning and reluctant writers.

 

What I have been seeing is that Button is frustrated by his limited writing abilities and also that his sentences, when he writes spontaneously, are erratically punctuated and the capitalization is all over the map. He is temperamental and a perfectionist, and pretty much never voluntarily does "academic" things, so I am going to explicitly teach writing skills to him. We hit something similar with reading, and also with riding a bike, where he was frustrated by his abilities but needed some outside structure in order to move forward. So I don't think every child would benefit from this addition to WTM writing, but I am fairly sure mine will :).

 

For children the age of yours, if you are considering writing, have you looked at Bravewriter? there is a new component for young writers, Jot it Down; and Bravewriter seems quite complementary to WTM, if you're following that, and it is fairy well-loved around these boards. I myself want something more mechanics-focused for second grade ...

Edited July 8, 2012 by serendipitous journey

[Shawna in North CA]

I have to admit, with my oldest I didn't really, "formally" teach writing until age 10, and I think even that can be a little young.

 

We started IEW with ds10.5, and after essentially zero formal writing instruction, he went from very little independent writing ability to writing serious research papers in one year.

 

That said, our early years were certainly not devoid of writing, but writing centered primarily around copywork. I did use English for the Thoughtful Child Book 1. I'm not convinced it made much of a difference, but it made me feel better to be "doing" something in the early years. We also used the copywork books from Queen Homeschool, which I do think are nice.

 

For my current younger children, I just ordered the Primary Arts of Language from IEW. I'm reviewing it now, and so far, I like what I see. The first portion of the Writing manual introduces the letters and how to form them. I don't think you really need a "curriculum" to introduce letters, but if you want one, this curriculum does so nicely, thoroughly, and creatively.

 

The next portion begins copywork, along with narration to summarize stories. It also incorporates All About Spelling, which along with the Primary Arts of Language: Reading component, gives young students a SOLID foundation in phonics.

 

The third portion begins students doing some very guided, structured, re-writing of stories.

 

The IEW primary writing program is unique in that is doesn't expect young students to write independently too early. In my experience, pushing 2nd graders to write a paragraph from scratch is a recipe for creating writing trauma.

 

I like the IEW program. And yet still, I think with a literature rich environment, and a good focus on reading, formal writing instruction can REALLY be delayed until much later than most of us believe. And, waiting until a student is older and ready makes for smoother go of it.

[serendipitous journey]

I have to admit, with my oldest I didn't really, "formally" teach writing until age 10, and I think even that can be a little young.

 

We started IEW with ds10.5, and after essentially zero formal writing instruction, he went from very little independent writing ability to writing serious research papers in one year.

...

I like the IEW program. And yet still, I think with a literature rich environment, and a good focus on reading, formal writing instruction can REALLY be delayed until much later than most of us believe. And, waiting until a student is older and ready makes for smoother go of it.

 

This sort of experience is one I've seen often on the boards, and makes me wonder if my own focus on writing skill for primary years might be misplaced.

 

In my case, I have a niggling worry about Button's writing. He is quite accelerated generally and extremely temperamental, and it seems to me that while many children have the experience of quickly learning to write in upper elementary some do not: I suspect I have one of the latter.

 

Also, there are particular resources (from Junior Great Books, and from William and Mary's Center for Gifted Education) that I'd like to use with Button that involve a higher level of writing. At any rate, even with the not-ideal :D Evan Moor book, I'm getting some delightful writing and he's learning to have fun with it!

[duckens]

We're starting this fall for dd5 using IEW's PAL-Writing.

 

It is very gentle, and starts out with just copywork letters (section 1), moves into copywork words/sentences (section 2), and finally into writing paragraphs by summarizing stories (section 3).

 

I am, however, quite aware that dd is only 5, and I am hoping to tailor the paragraph writing to the amount she can do. Perhaps, since she will be 6 by then, I will have her write the first 6 words, and she will dictate the rest to me.

 

We are in no hurry.

[Elfknitter.#]

I just started using Check the Deck with dd. It's to supplement her use of MCTLA. I got mine used in half.com. Dd is going to be 9 next month.

[Closeacademy]

We do copywork until grade 5 or so. Then I start on a writing program. This year I am using Writing Strands with both of my dds. I really like the program. But my oldest will also be spending time with Jensen's format writing which seems to be very good as well.

 

:001_smile:

[Dinsfamily]

I wasn't planning to start formal writing until 3rd grade, but I ended up starting WWE 1 halfway through first grade. I was fearful that my reluctant writer would be behind developing what might be natural skills for other dc. I'm glad I did. He's now halfway through WWE2 and going into 3rd grade. I've really seen his writing and narration skills grow this year exceeding my expectations. I'll be starting future dc in WWE 1 at the beginning of 1st (depending on readiness) from now on.

[Shawna in North CA]

@ Ana....

 

We have to remember that every child is different, and your mama-intuition needs to be your guide. If you believe your little guy is benefitting from your approach, he probably is! And no one knows that better than you.

[redsquirrel]

I started my youngest in WWE 1 in his first year. It is just copywork, narration, and dictation.

 

My older did all of the WWE series and started in WWS1 in 6th grade. I have been very happy with this approach.

[chepyl]

We are doing dictation for spelling. We do a little copywork. I believe that R&S starts with some.paragraph writing this year. DS hates to write, so I let him do most of his writing on his own. He writes notes and letters to friends and family. He also writes some stories. He is one that of I did a formal program, his creative fun writing would stop. The less I push him, the more he wants to do, of everything!! You have to know your child. Mine would not benefit from a structured program at 7, but others.might.

[acablue]

I'm still debating starting formal writing with my oldest this fall, when he turns 7 and starts 2nd grade, but I think we'll leave it for at least another year. We tried WWE1 last year, but it wasn't challenging for him at all and he just didn't like it, so I let it drop. He's a natural writer and I think he is one of those kids who could start formal writing at 9 or 10 and be writing essays within a few months. Right now, he loves to write stories that we edit together and turn into books, so we'll stick with that for a while.

[serendipitous journey]

@ Ana....

 

We have to remember that every child is different, and your mama-intuition needs to be your guide. If you believe your little guy is benefitting from your approach, he probably is! And no one knows that better than you.

 

:) thank you for those kind words! and for your perspective ... it helps to see these experiences, and I'll be keeping your words in mind as we move forward. Perhaps it will turn out that he thrives with a gentler start, after all ...

 

I'm still debating starting formal writing with my oldest this fall, when he turns 7 and starts 2nd grade, but I think we'll leave it for at least another year. We tried WWE1 last year, but it wasn't challenging for him at all and he just didn't like it, so I let it drop. He's a natural writer and I think he is one of those kids who could start formal writing at 9 or 10 and be writing essays within a few months. Right now, he loves to write stories that we edit together and turn into books, so we'll stick with that for a while.

 

hurrah for natural writers! it is such a treat to read what these little ones write.

[boscopup]

We did WWE for first and second grade. It's gentle in the writing department (not so gentle in the comprehension question department, but that's oral :D). The dictation gets very much not gentle at all in 3 and 4.

 

For 3rd grade, we're using IEW SWI-A. We'll start Lesson 3 tomorrow. It's going very well. I don't think this has to be done in 3rd grade necessarily, but DS1 is accelerated in all other areas, so I didn't really want to wait too long to get his writing up to speed, as output could be an issue later on. IEW seems to be more effective for him right now than copywork/dictation alone.

 

Not sure what I'll do for DS2 when the time comes. We'll try WWE1 in first grade, but I'm thinking it may be a no-go. He may need something else. We'll see. I think DS3 will do well going on the same route that DS1 took.

 

I plan to use WWS in 5th grade for DS1, if he's ready for it.

[Ruby Rose]

We are starting WWE1 with my 7 yo for 2ND grade.

[serendipitous journey]

We did WWE for first and second grade. It's gentle in the writing department (not so gentle in the comprehension question department, but that's oral :D). The dictation gets very much not gentle at all in 3 and 4.

 

... this is good to know; also thanks for the reminder about how challenging WWE is (for us, too, at least) comprehension-wise: in my flurry of finalizing plans, I'd been in danger of dropping it for 2nd but we should keep it. Also glad to hear you liked IEW for the eldest: if you have time to say how you might figure if a child is a good IEW-fit, I'd be :bigear:! am considering it for Button for third.

[Momling]

I like to think of the writing focus over the years to be cumulative... something like this...

 

Kindergarten and up: Letters (aka handwriting, cursive or typing)

First and up: Words (aka Spelling)

Second and up: Sentences (i.e. mechanics -- capitalizing/punctuation)

Older elementary and up: Paragraphs (particularly organization)

Middle school and up: Essays (particularly rhetoric -- argumentation)

 

So right now, my younger daughter (starting third) is really working on creating sentences with good punctuation, but she's also working on spelling and handwriting.

 

My older daughter has mastered spelling and handwriting, so we don't work on those any more much. Right now she is focusing on paragraphs, but she's also still working on creating strong, complex sentence with good punctuation. She's not yet started a focus on essays, but we might start later on in the year.

[Coffeemama]

For my oldest, we used Writing Strands in 4th grade....didn't work for us. We used IEW this past year for 5th and will continue with it. My son did copy work, narrations and WWW for grades 2&3 and will start IEW this year in 4th. Youngest will continue narrations and Winning with Writing and will start IEW in 3rd. Hopefully the IEW method will work as well for them as it has for my oldest. I really LOVE the program. We will be using the new Narnia theme book in our co-op this year for the 5th to 7th graders.

[Shawna in North CA]

I like to think of the writing focus over the years to be cumulative... something like this...

 

Kindergarten and up: Letters (aka handwriting, cursive or typing)

First and up: Words (aka Spelling)

Second and up: Sentences (i.e. mechanics -- capitalizing/punctuation)

Older elementary and up: Paragraphs (particularly organization)

Middle school and up: Essays (particularly rhetoric -- argumentation)

 

 

 

Yep. This is a great framework. Of course, there will be some who are ready earlier or later, but I think this reflects the sequence pretty well.

[SilverMoon]

Third or fourth grade, depending on how ready the kid seemed. Mine have mostly started with Classical Writing: Aesop A. Before that I worked on their writing using the suggestions in TWTM, focusing on copywork, narration and dictation.

[...................]

4th grade.

 

Before that we used journaling, Copywork/dictation, and just basic sentences in their handwriting workbooks.

[serendipitous journey]

I started Third and Fourth with WWE 1 in April. But I am thinking they do not need it with all the rest we do. It feels redundant. I am not sure I want to continue with it, but I am too nervous NOT to use something. What I am thinking is waiting until late 3rd or 4th grade then starting IEW SWI-A. Before that, I am thinking maybe delving a bit into Writing Skills Book A by epsbooks.com. I used it with First and Second years ago with good results. I have the TM to go with WS so I might start trying some of it now. I had also considered Winning with Writing and Games for Writing.

 

I agree that beyond copywork and EASY dictation, most little people do not need a structured program until about 3rd-4th grade.

 

Just wondering ... have you considered trying WWE2 or WWE3? The Peace Hill site has a page with a sort of placement test (don't have time to link it right now ...)

[QTMom]

This will be our first year of doing a formal writing program. We are going to be using WWE. We have been doing journals, copywork, and learning how to write a correct sentence, etc. But, this will be our first year with an actual writing curriculum. My kids are in 2nd and 3rd grades.

[Heidi]

I plan on waiting until 4th, maybe 5th grade for a formal writing program. I'm not sure yet what I will use. WWS and Classical Composition are currently in the running.

 

Until then we do narration, copywork, and dictation in our everyday work.

[mazakaal]

I wasn't planning to start formal writing until 3rd grade, but I ended up starting WWE 1 halfway through first grade. I was fearful that my reluctant writer would be behind developing what might be natural skills for other dc. I'm glad I did. He's now halfway through WWE2 and going into 3rd grade. I've really seen his writing and narration skills grow this year exceeding my expectations. I'll be starting future dc in WWE 1 at the beginning of 1st (depending on readiness) from now on.

 

Me too! I always started writing in 3rd with Writing Strands. I didn't like it for my older boys, but still wanted to try it with dd hoping it would work for her. When it didn't, I got WWE3 for her in the middle of 3rd grade. Youngest was in 1st and I thought I'd give WWE1 a try for him. He's now finishing 2nd grade (and in lesson 29 of WWE2) and I've been very happy with his progress.

 

I really like WWE as a very gentle introduction to writing using copywork, narration, and dictation.

[Momof3littles]

WWE2 in 2nd grade, and we're starting WWE3 in third. DS1 is almost 8.5, a perfectionist, and does not enjoy any type of creative writing. He did very well with WWE2, but "creative" or more open-ended assignments are stressful for him. I"m going to try to nudge him toward some of that this year (entering 3rd).

[laughing lioness]

ages 6-7 with WWE I or around 3rd grade with IEW.

IEW's poetry memorization program around ages 3-4

[Pen]

3rd/4th. We have tried several. Writing Strands was a bad fit. Some may be good in future, but too hard right now. Currently using Writing Skills. (not what is says in sig right now, it is hard to stay caught up) But he got interested in news and so we may try Wordsmith Apprentice.

[Sahamamama]

Pre-K = Manuscript handwriting (formation of letters, simple copywork)

K = Manuscript copywork + very simple narration/picture narration (they are girls, they talk about everything!)

First grade = WWE 1 + Narration in subjects

Second grade = WWE 2 + WWW 2 + Narration in subjects (maybe ;))

Third grade = ? I hope by then to be able to do WWE 3 as our "meat & potatoes," but go a little more freelance with other ideas and methods. HTH.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Sahamamama

[Mélie]

I'm not comfortable at all with teaching writing, so we started WWE 1 this week. My boys are 4.5 and 5.5.

 

I have a very vague plan of doing WWE 1, WWE 2, then alternating between MCT, WWE and IEW until they're ready for WWS.

[boscopup]

I'm not comfortable at all with teaching writing, so we started WWE 1 this week. My boys are 4.5 and 5.5.

 

Be careful. Most kids are not ready for it at those ages (some kids aren't ready for WWE1 until age 7 even). The language gets difficult in some of the passages, and that makes the questions hard.

 

Are your boys reading well? Are they able to comfortably copy a decent length sentence?

 

Don't let your discomfort cause you to start something before your kids are developmentally ready (and maybe your kids are... it's just super rare for a 4.5 year old to be ready for WWE1, and still pretty unusual at 5.5). There is a reason why SWB recommends not starting oral narrations until age 6, and even Charlotte Mason recommended the same. Some kids can do it earlier, and your kids might be that type, but many just aren't ready.

 

Now if your kids are both reading chapter books and writing long stories, ignore my comments. :D

[Mélie]

Be careful. Most kids are not ready for it at those ages (some kids aren't ready for WWE1 until age 7 even). The language gets difficult in some of the passages, and that makes the questions hard.

 

Are your boys reading well? Are they able to comfortably copy a decent length sentence?

 

Don't let your discomfort cause you to start something before your kids are developmentally ready (and maybe your kids are... it's just super rare for a 4.5 year old to be ready for WWE1, and still pretty unusual at 5.5). There is a reason why SWB recommends not starting oral narrations until age 6, and even Charlotte Mason recommended the same. Some kids can do it earlier, and your kids might be that type, but many just aren't ready.

 

Now if your kids are both reading chapter books and writing long stories, ignore my comments. :D

Thanks, I think they're okay to start out with it, but I'm completely willing to drop it if it gets to hard, or even if they just don't want to do it. They're both reading well and don't have trouble with the copywork so far. Of course, we've only done three lessons, so I'll keep your warning in mind.

 

It's possible that I'm not understanding oral narrations perfectly. I'll figure that out tomorrow. :D