Sigh...community college rant

[G5052]

I'm a long-term community college professor, so I shouldn't take this personally at this point. This summer I'm teaching a hybrid course (limited classroom, mostly online).

 

They were supposed to go take their midterm this week at the college, and I just peeked at the grades because it was due at noon. Only 1/4 of the class took the exam, and the office that supplies the proctors tells me that there were no technical problems. There were no emails from the missing students.

 

So I may be entering failing grades for 3/4 of them? Oh dear.

 

This type of thing always amazes me.

 

I went to an online seminar last night on college with Amy Barr of the Lukeion Project, and she talked about how the majority of academic failure is a breakdown in determination. Sigh. Don't I know it today.

 

Off to my hole to sulk...

[OLG]

:grouphug: You have my sympathies. So many kids lack any personal sense of accountability and seem to expect someone 'else' to remind them of what they need to do and when. Public school fails them as do parents, imho. And, to think that educators and administrators are seeing these hybrid corses as the future for kids! IT's NOT your fault!

[SonshineLearner]

Sorry :( I'm suppose to be taking my exams for the class I'm taking. I think I picked the wrong first class to get back in the swing of college!! :)

[Heatherwith4]

:grouphug:

[Dmmetler]

Does it help to know it happens in non-online, 4 year colleges, too? Until Jan, I was an adjunct in music ed, and one of my responsibilities was to manage observation hours for music ed majors. Now, observation hours are simply a matter of calling one of the teachers on the list, going, sitting in their classroom, and writing up reports. We even had multiple opportunities ON CAMPUS, including the early childhood classes I taught in the community music program and the campus lab school, plus a half dozen schools that were easily accessible without a car. These weren't freshmen, either-these were students who were right before student teaching or graduate internships.

 

And, invariably, less than half of the kids actually got them done and all the paperwork filed on time. Of the rest, about half would try to cram their hours in at the last minute, and complain when teachers weren't at all amenable to having a dozen college students in the back of the room as they tried to prepare for a Winter program or do end of year assessments on band students, where the exams had to be done 1-1. The remainder would wait until AFTER the semester was over, and then act surprised when they were told that they couldn't student teach. Of course, most of them also hadn't completed one of the other requirements for the student teaching program either-they'd dropped a class they needed to finish or hadn't done the paperwork.

 

It was SUCH a relief to go on winter break last year and NOT have constant e-mails and a full voice mail box of sob stories!

 

I figure that if I can manage anything from homeschooling, I want my DD to be the kid who actually gets her assignments in on time and if she makes a mistake, doesn't come up with excuses.

[Dana]

:grouphug:

 

It stinks.

 

Hold the line though if your college lets you. We do these students no favors by saying deadlines aren't deadlines.

 

You can lead the horse to water....

 

On the plus side, grading will be easy :001_huh:

 

Frustrating.

[G5052]

DH just gave me a pep talk too and said we'll do dinner out. I just finished work on a writing contract I had with another college, so a celebration is in order anyway.

 

After last night's seminar, I'm glad that I've always held the line and work for a college that backs me that way. I will call my dean Monday to give her a head's up though. She always wants to know if I have a "downer" class, and this is the worst ever.

 

I'm part-time on a fixed contract, so I get paid the same no matter how many students I have and how many actually do the work.

 

This is a section of adults, with one darling 20 y.o. who actually laughs at my jokes. She took the exam.

 

Thankfully only another month...

[creekland]

 

Hold the line though if your college lets you. We do these students no favors by saying deadlines aren't deadlines.

 

Frustrating.

 

:iagree:

 

I suspect a large part of the problem comes from high schools like mine where a deadline is very rarely a deadline - up until graduation. Our school gives oodles of deadlines for things both academic and not, but kids know if they are late, it really doesn't matter much if at all. Deadlines get extended multiple times.

[G5052]

:iagree:

 

I suspect a large part of the problem comes from high schools like mine where a deadline is very rarely a deadline - up until graduation. Our school gives oodles of deadlines for things both academic and not, but kids know if they are late, it really doesn't matter much if at all. Deadlines get extended multiple times.

 

She noted that when a student asks for an extension from a professor who has made it clear that there are no extensions, it is almost a definite that they've gotten by without hard deadlines in the past. Her point was that teen homeschoolers need hard deadlines because that's how it is in college. We've been told to take that line partially for legal reasons as well because it gets rather hazy figuring out who deserves an extension and who doesn't, and students do file grievances and sue professors over this type of thing.

 

But it is the same in the professional world too. I remember well the nights and long weekends with work deadlines that were fixed in stone. In fact I remember being told that when layoffs came around that those who didn't meet deadlines would be gone. And they were indeed first ones out the door. You can't run a competitive organization with people who don't believe deadlines.;)

Edited June 29, 2012 by GVA

[Miss Marple]

Honestly one would think that they would be interested in getting their money's worth. How can they justify the expense of a college course without completing it?!?

 

My boys have seen a lot of this in their dual enrollment courses, particularly at the CC level. They are amazed because they don't find the work difficult.

 

On the flip side, though, I have also had a couple of instances where the kids were discouraged by the teacher's lack of engagement - either not attending the laboratory sessions and telling the students to call her on her cell phone if they have questions or to not grading assigned homework. My son's online foreign language course was an example of the latter. Toward the end he just gave up on doing the homework (knowing he would dual enroll the next semester for foreign language) because the teacher simply quit grading it and there was no feedback other than "keep working hard". He felt that if the teacher didn't want to put in the effort, why should he? :confused1: He got discouraged. Unfortunately the teacher left a rather nasty comment on his final evaluation that "he is always sad when a student doesn't give the course his best effort" (ds had an A until the last quarter and dropped to a B). I wanted to tell the teacher that HE should have done what he was requiring of his students :angry:

 

They have had a few excellent instructors and most would be considered fine, but we've had 2 who were bad. Those stats aren't too bad considering how many courses my sons have taken :)

 

It's hard for the teacher when the students aren't trying...but it's not your fault. Hopefully their failing grades will be a wake-up call. :grouphug:

[Tammyla]

What a waste of time and money. I can't imagine that many people not at least trying to pass the test...Crazy!

[OLG]

Adults! Lord help us. Sorry I 'assumed' they were kids-sounds like you 20y/o student is great! Enjoy your dinner out with dh-you earned it.

[Miss Marple]

Adults! Lord help us. Sorry I 'assumed' they were kids-sounds like you 20y/o student is great! Enjoy your dinner out with dh-you earned it.

 

:iagree: Hope they aren't being role models for their own kids :tongue_smilie:

[Dana]

 

After last night's seminar, I'm glad that I've always held the line and work for a college that backs me that way. I will call my dean Monday to give her a head's up though. She always wants to know if I have a "downer" class, and this is the worst ever.

 

I've got you beat. I once taught a college algebra class that was dual enrollment so most of my students were high school students taking the class on campus during school time. 15 students. Final course grades were 3Fs and 12 W's.

 

I'd tell them they'd have a quiz the next class when I'd ask them to state the quadratic formula and then derive it. They came in not even having memorized the formula.

 

It was my most miserable teaching experience.

 

It's great that you're at a supportive school.

Have a drink with dinner :001_smile:

 

And advice I've gotten on CHE forums is, "You can't care more than they do," and "You are just recording the results of their choices."

You've got a group making poor choices. That's on them.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I've got you beat. I once taught a college algebra class that was dual enrollment so most of my students were high school students taking the class on campus during school time. 15 students. Final course grades were 3Fs and 12 W's.

 

I'd tell them they'd have a quiz the next class when I'd ask them to state the quadratic formula and then derive it. They came in not even having memorized the formula.

 

It was my most miserable teaching experience.

 

It's great that you're at a supportive school.

Have a drink with dinner :001_smile:

 

And advice I've gotten on CHE forums is, "You can't care more than they do," and "You are just recording the results of their choices."

You've got a group making poor choices. That's on them.

 

I did training for swim officials last fall. One of the topics of conversation was if it was mean to disqualify swimmers. The response from the senior judges was that it did no benefit to a swimmer to let them slide when they were little and cute and still could correct their bad habits, only to have them be surprised when they were older and were being DQ'd in important races.

 

The mantra was that you were not disqualifying them, they were swimming a disqualifying stroke and the judge was noting it down in fairness to the other swimmers.

 

 

It can be hard to hold to deadlines as the homeschool mom, but I agree that it is a lesson that must be mastered.

[PhotoGal]

I was shocked when I took an online community college class and only a few people submitted their assignments on time. :confused: It seems to be the norm around here as well.

[Wildcat]

.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Wildcat

[Greta Lea]

The class is all adults!?! Wow. Sad.

[G5052]

The youngest is 20. I know that because they call her the "baby" of the class. All are working and going to school.

 

Now I'm getting the "I didn't plan my time, so can you give me more time..." emails. Nope. That isn't fair to those who did plan their time, and it isn't right for me to that.

 

I've had classes before that didn't do at all well, but never one like this.

 

Oh well.

[AngieW in Texas]

The time to send those emails is BEFORE you miss the test (unless it turns out that you have ended up in the ER and then after is ok).

 

I didn't have any problems with the cc class I taught that was all adults. I was actually younger than all of my students since I had just graduated. I did NOT like the summer class I taught that was high school students and college students taking physics over the summer at the cc so it wouldn't count on their GPA for their university. I had lots of problems with students neglecting to turn in assignments and lab reports in my summer class. I didn't have any problems with the tests, but that was because they were given during class time and I was required to take attendance and drop anybody who missed more than 3 classes without a doctor's note.

[FloridaLisa]

Honestly one would think that they would be interested in getting their money's worth. How can they justify the expense of a college course without completing it?!?

 

Cynthia, maybe because it's student loan money? I know at least one adult who seems to stay in school to get that elusive degree, only to change majors partway through. In that case, it's loan money.

 

Lisa

[Miss Marple]

Cynthia, maybe because it's student loan money? I know at least one adult who seems to stay in school to get that elusive degree, only to change majors partway through. In that case, it's loan money.

 

Lisa

 

I think there is probably something to that. I know several parents who have taken their graduates (some have been out of school for a couple of years) to the local university and enrolled them in courses. These kids had no motivation to do it on their own. But they were living at home, consuming resources, not working, and the parents have had enough of it.

 

And these same parents complain that their kids aren't doing well in their courses. But the kids have invested nothing...other than their free time in the courses.

[G5052]

I was the only one that attended class last night. Yup.

 

I got everything ready to go. I sat there for 30 minutes going through old emails, and updating a few things. Then I went home. At least I returned library books and bought gas on the way back, or it would have been a wasted trip.

 

And I emailed my boss again about this section. I was there, really.

[momteel]

One downfall of homeschooling is not hitting deadlines that are not flexible and will not move for you. I have a son who cannot get things done unless he has the high stimulation from a deadline- ADD. He needs to have very firm deadlines, but does not feel like Mom's deadlines mean anything....

 

It has gone better for High School boys to have a class with my husband who is very inflexible and also a university professor. they work very hard for him, and he is firm but fair and good with them.

 

Laura

[Dana]

I was the only one that attended class last night. Yup.

 

I got everything ready to go. I sat there for 30 minutes going through old emails, and updating a few things. Then I went home. At least I returned library books and bought gas on the way back, or it would have been a wasted trip.

 

And I emailed my boss again about this section. I was there, really.

 

Oh man...that's bad.

 

:grouphug:

[Tullia]

I was the only one that attended class last night. Yup.

 

I got everything ready to go. I sat there for 30 minutes going through old emails, and updating a few things. Then I went home. At least I returned library books and bought gas on the way back, or it would have been a wasted trip.

 

And I emailed my boss again about this section. I was there, really.

 

 

Oh my, that's so discouraging.:( I stopped by to update an earlier post about my son's experiences transferring from CC, but want to thank you for sharing your insights here on the boards. You've helped my son prepare for, and then take advantage of, some wonderful opportunities at our local CC.

 

About the cost and motivations of students...what ds has seen is that a lot of people in NM enroll at the CC because "someone else" is footing the bill but they don't follow through and it can be for a variety of reasons. I don't believe it's the CC's fault either; there are all kinds of resources for academic remediation, tutorials, and even classes to teach "college culture" to those students who don't have the family/community support they need. I also get the sense that a lot of people enter college without a clear sense of what they expect from the process.

[Clear Creek]

:grouphug: I'm sorry.

 

I just recently earned my BA (through a combination of traditional and online courses) and I noticed that the majority of the students in my classes would stop submitting their coursework and participating in (online) discussions halfway through the course. And it wasn't just in community college...the same issue was there in the four-year college I graduated from. It completely boggled my mind.

 

I never thought about it from the perspective of the instructor, though. I would feel very discouraged if I put in that kind of effort and the students just slacked off and eventually quit. :grouphug:

[AngieW in Texas]

That's awful!

 

My 16yo was very disappointed by the lack of participation by the other students in her English I class at the cc. Most of the discussion was between her and the teacher because very few of the other students seemed to do the readings before class like they were supposed to and the few who did weren't willing to participate in a discussion.

 

Her English II class had more participation, but most of the discussion was still between her and the teacher. She often talked with the teacher after class for another 20-30 minutes because she enjoyed the discussions so much. That teacher really wanted her to join the honors program, but the honors classes are only at the downtown campus and that just isn't feasible for us.

 

I would have been very disheartened by having nobody show up for my class. You definitely got a bad group of students. You'd think at least one would have bothered to come.

[creekland]

I was the only one that attended class last night. Yup.

 

I got everything ready to go. I sat there for 30 minutes going through old emails, and updating a few things. Then I went home. At least I returned library books and bought gas on the way back, or it would have been a wasted trip.

 

And I emailed my boss again about this section. I was there, really.

 

Wow! Is there any chance they thought they didn't have class due to the 4th coming up? (I'm grasping at straws.) Otherwise, WOW!

 

 

About the cost and motivations of students...what ds has seen is that a lot of people in NM enroll at the CC because "someone else" is footing the bill but they don't follow through and it can be for a variety of reasons. I don't believe it's the CC's fault either; there are all kinds of resources for academic remediation, tutorials, and even classes to teach "college culture" to those students who don't have the family/community support they need. I also get the sense that a lot of people enter college without a clear sense of what they expect from the process.

 

:iagree: And their behavior goes back to what was accepted at high school.

 

 

My 16yo was very disappointed by the lack of participation by the other students in her English I class at the cc. Most of the discussion was between her and the teacher because very few of the other students seemed to do the readings before class like they were supposed to and the few who did weren't willing to participate in a discussion.

 

 

 

This is eerily similar to what my guys experienced. It really seems like kids feel they just expect the grades for having signed up. Since that works in high school (we rarely fail anyone even with multiple absences without a cause), why shouldn't it work for all of life? :glare:

[AngieW in Texas]

She doesn't participate much in her chemistry class, which is unusual for her, but it's because it's all a repeat of what we already did at home. We were expecting a higher level class, especially when we saw the textbook for it, but the text isn't used at all. It does cover the material, but the Chemistry I for science majors class she is in seems to be the same level as what I already taught her at home using Tro's Introductory Chemistry. The labs are a lot more involved, which is good, but the material from lecture isn't any more difficult aside from having to actually memorize the polyatomic ions and naming conventions for the tests as opposed to having the chart available all the time.

 

The teacher hands out the homework at the beginning of class (always a set of worksheets), so she does the homework during class just to have something to do. She did talk to the teacher about it and that's what the teacher recommended. The first 4 classes were all significant digits and unit conversions, so she would have been bored out of her mind if she hadn't had something to actually do during the class.

 

She does think the teacher is very good at teaching. It's just that she isn't teaching anything she doesn't already know.

 

In retrospect, having her take Chemistry I right after finishing Introductory Chemistry at home was not a good idea. We thought it was going to be a much more difficult class though.

[G5052]

I was the only one (besides the prof) several times at my comp sci class this winter, and this is a 4 year university.

 

I actually pulled some my attendance and grade sheets from 10+ years ago, and I didn't see more than a few cases where more than 25% of the class was absent. I also didn't fail more than a handful back then after the drop dates had passed.

 

In recent years the percent present has gone down, and of course the number failing has gone up although I've failed some who attended faithfully (all homeschoolers BTW).

 

So I see a definite trend here. Sad, isn't it? Don't bother attending, don't bother doing the work.

 

We'll see how next week goes, but it is a definite possibility that the majority of this section will fail, perhaps nearly all :confused:.

[Dana]

Sometimes you also just get a bad group.

 

My course where no one passed was in 1999.

 

The cc I'm at now has attendance policies that allow me to drop students after they've missed a certain number of classes. That does help some.

[AngieW in Texas]

My dd's chemistry teacher has a drop policy in place. If you miss more than three of her classes without an excuse, she will drop you from the class. It's in her syllabus and she goes over it the first day, so everybody ought to know about it.

[Miss Marple]

That's how our local university deals with it as well.

[G5052]

My dd's chemistry teacher has a drop policy in place. If you miss more than three of her classes without an excuse, she will drop you from the class. It's in her syllabus and she goes over it the first day, so everybody ought to know about it.

 

They've talked about it here and there, but we still hang on to them until the very end whether they attend or not. We do have to give a "last contact" date if they get an "F" to show if they stopped coming.

[Dana]

They've talked about it here and there, but we still hang on to them until the very end whether they attend or not. We do have to give a "last contact" date if they get an "F" to show if they stopped coming.

 

I think having a drop policy makes a huge difference.

I can't see having one unless it is college policy though.

I know ours has the drop policy for financial aid. It sounds like before there was the drop policy, students would attend until they got their excess money (Pell grants generally, released towards midterm) and then they'd be gone until the next semester.

 

The changes in financial aid should be making this less likely though. Sounds like "satisfactory academic progress" is being defined a lot tighter.

 

I'd be sure to put material from the day everyone was absent on the next test :)

 

At least you should be halfway through this semester. Hang in there!

[Mom0012]

I actually pulled some my attendance and grade sheets from 10+ years ago, and I didn't see more than a few cases where more than 25% of the class was absent. I also didn't fail more than a handful back then after the drop dates had passed.

 

In recent years the percent present has gone down, and of course the number failing has gone up although I've failed some who attended faithfully (all homeschoolers BTW).

 

So I see a definite trend here. Sad, isn't it? Don't bother attending, don't bother doing the work.

 

We'll see how next week goes, but it is a definite possibility that the majority of this section will fail, perhaps nearly all :confused:.

 

Sorry you are having such trouble with your class.

 

What was the reason the homeschoolers failed even though attendance was good? Did they miss deadlines or were they just not ready for college-level work?

 

Lisa

[SwallowTail]

It seems to me that it is possible that many students (whatever their age) are enrolled in CC or college simply because it is a checklist item in their lives. People who don't have specific goals, clear academic objectives, and the necessary drive and determination to meet those objectives often just flounder about aimlessly and seem easily thwarted by challenges. I just don't think everyone should go to college.

 

There are cases where the student simply doesn't yet have the tools required to be successful at that level of academia, but they usually demonstrate a desire to gain them and will attempt to work with the teacher or a tutor to come up to speed.

[G5052]

What was the reason the homeschoolers failed even though attendance was good? Did they miss deadlines or were they just not ready for college-level work?

 

Lisa

 

Every year I fail a few of dual enrollment homeschoolers who are faithfully dropped off for class by an adult, but then they don't much homework. This always strikes me odd, but it happens. I've had some with perfect attendance who turned in absolutely nothing all semester. The only thing I can think of is that it is a passive-aggressive thing against the parent.

 

I alway tell people who want to do dual enrollment that monitoring your high school student is not optional. Technically you're still responsible for their education, and you need to be there to help them plan their time and get things done.

Edited July 6, 2012 by GVA

[G5052]

It seems to me that it is possible that many students (whatever their age) are enrolled in CC or college simply because it is a checklist item in their lives. People who don't have specific goals, clear academic objectives, and the necessary drive and determination to meet those objectives often just flounder about aimlessly and seem easily thwarted by challenges. I just don't think everyone should go to college.

 

There are cases where the student simply doesn't yet have the tools required to be successful at that level of academia, but they usually demonstrate a desire to gain them and will attempt to work with the teacher or a tutor to come up to speed.

 

"Going to college" is a common goal, but actually doing it is a different matter. It is of course a sad thing when someone over-reaches their abilities and determination. I'm guessing that this is the case with my current section. From what they've said and my general impressions, I think that the majority of them have taken this class before. When that happens, it can be tough for them to push on to the end if they start missing assignments. They've given up before, and they tend to do it again.

 

We'll see what happens on Monday. They have a 4-part project due, and I peeked earlier today and none of them had even downloaded the files yet. I may be sitting there again alone Monday night...

[Mom0012]

Every year I fail a few of dual enrollment homeschoolers who are faithfully dropped off for class by an adult, but then they don't much homework. This always strikes me odd, but it happens. I've had some with perfect attendance who turned in absolutely nothing all semester. The only thing I can think of is that it is a passive-aggressive thing against the parent.

 

I alway tell people who want to do dual enrollment that monitoring your high school student is not optional. Technically you're still responsible for their education, and you need to be there to help them plan their time and get things done.

 

Thanks for the info! My kids will likely dual enroll at the CC in 11th grade, so I was dying to know.

 

Lisa