Community service as punishment

[annandatje]

Recent discussions here have dealt with what type of punishments are appropriate for certain offenses. Community service is one often mentioned.

 

I do not know what the answer is, but my problem with treating community service as punishment is that, in my opinion, people should perform community service as part of ... well ... being human and living in community.

 

One of the major goals of the justice and imprisonment system is to keep citizens safe from dangerous destructive people. In the case of a pack of adolescent feral bullies, it would follow that they should be isolated from their peers to keep their peers safe. I am aware that isolation and "tomato-staking" are not an option for all families.

 

Is the idea behind community service to teach empathy and to free up prison space for the more violent? Is empathy even teachable? I do believe that the appearance of empathy is teachable.

Edited June 23, 2012 by annandatje
grammatical error

[Slartibartfast]

I believe in community service as punishment and my family already donates time. Atm dd is eleven so most of it isn't very labor intensive.

 

I don't think there is any indication that these kids have hurt anyone. I wouldn't treat them like criminals.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Sis

[swellmomma]

I believe in community service as punishment and my family already donates time. Atm dd is eleven so most of it isn't very labor intensive.

 

I don't think there is any indication that these kids have hurt anyone. I wouldn't treat them like criminals.

 

:iagree:We do community service as a family donation of time, but ds had to do it after screwing up as punishment. The idea beyond the service he did for punishment was that he took from the community so he had to give back. By starting a fire with those other boys he took the resource of the fire fighters time due to their actions. So after they completed a fire safety course he and the other boys had to wash all the fire trucks and serve the pancake breakfast and clean up after it, during fire safety week. He was embarassed to be doing that work because everyone knew why he was there doing it. Whereas he takes great pride in the time he donates elsewhere. Very different feeling for it, and for non violent juveniles giving back to the community after taking from it is very effective for most of them.

[Murphy101]

I don't agree with it either.

 

I wouldn't want to have my kid volunteer with them.

I wouldn't want my invalid loved one at the nursing home cared for by them.

[Desert Rat]

There are many types of community service.

For the bullies in recent headlines, no, I don't think they should go anywhere near human beings as community service.

When a relative was younger and in trouble, his community service was washing police cars, working at the zoo shoveling manure, etc.

A friend worked in thrift stores sorting clothes. My dad used to have people help him around his church to fulfill community service mandated by courts.

I think helping in hospitals, nursing homes, soup kitchens/pantries, etc. should be volunteer basis not community service as a punishment for wrong doing.

[WishboneDawn]

Community service isn't punishment. It's restitution to the community that your actions have harmed. I don't think it's should be the only recourse but I think a lot more people should be sentenced to do it - and face punishment as well.

[swellmomma]

I don't agree with it either.

 

I wouldn't want to have my kid volunteer with them.

I wouldn't want my invalid loved one at the nursing home cared for by them.

 

My experience has been they do not do community service in that sort of environment. There is no willing volunteers for the things they assign, like ds's I wrote about above. Or those assigned to "community beautification" aka picking up trash, cleaning graffitti etc. They generally do not have those assigned to community service working with those from vulnerable sectors (aka kids and elderly)

[Education Explorers]

Our Girl Scout troop was earning its Bronze Award this spring by doing community service at the SPCA. I quickly realized that this was a problem because apparently the SPCA is on the state approved community service list for state court. (At least the girls were only around drunks, druggies and wife beaters as opposed to worse. Eeh gads!) My co-leader and I watched our girls like hawks while we were volunteering. Luckily we had no problems and the girls were unaware of why other people were "volunteering."

 

As a prosecutor, I always included CS as part of my sentences. But I often targeted the CS to picking up trash on the highway etc. My philosophy was that whether they liked it or not, they would be forced to give of themselves to their community for a change. For those brief hours, they were no longer parasites living off their community.

 

I think Community Service needs a name change when it refers to punishment or recompense. Perhaps, Required Community Reparation... That way we could distinguish true Community Service where one willing volunteers their time for the benefit of others because they want to contribute to the betterment of the world and their own community.

[Impish]

I don't think there is any indication that these kids have hurt anyone. I wouldn't treat them like criminals.

Wrong, at least for some of them. Sorry.

 

Uttering death threats, and threatening physical harm IS illegal, and they should be charged, convicted, and treated like the criminal they are.

[Farrar]

I don't think it always works and obviously there have to be checks on it when the people are charged with hurting or abusing others. However, it surprises me that anyone would be against the idea of a child who had done something to harm the community being asked to give back to the community as part of the consequences of their actions.

 

We do this in our home. You're mean, you help the person you hurt by cleaning up or doing a chore for them. This is the same thing on a grander scale. It's a logical consequence. Whether the child can be made to see that, I don't know all the time. But I don't think that's a reason not to try.

[Slartibartfast]

I don't agree with it either.

 

I wouldn't want to have my kid volunteer with them.

I wouldn't want my invalid loved one at the nursing home cared for by them.

 

When things like that are assigned it isn't tucking in grandmothers at the nursing home. They are picking up trash and things like that in the heat.

 

I might come across as hippie lovey dovey permissive but my family is not far removed from the farm and I grew up with an old fashioned attitude. You pull crap like that and you are going to be outside sweating your rear off. I know plenty of farmer's who could use help. They wouldn't be having fun and there would not be air conditioning.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Sis

[Slartibartfast]

Wrong, at least for some of them. Sorry.

 

Uttering death threats, and threatening physical harm IS illegal, and they should be charged, convicted, and treated like the criminal they are.

 

I really disagree, they may be behaving in an appalling manner but they are still kids. If one treats someone like criminals and puts them among criminals then they will grow up to be criminals. They need to be removed from that situation, not placed in a worse one.

 

This is NOT uncommon behavior for teen boys. When they are bored, in groups, a lot of them act like thugs. I have always had the opinion that kids need to be kept busy and tired.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Sis

[Denise in Florida]

:iagree:We do community service as a family donation of time, but ds had to do it after screwing up as punishment. The idea beyond the service he did for punishment was that he took from the community so he had to give back. By starting a fire with those other boys he took the resource of the fire fighters time due to their actions. So after they completed a fire safety course he and the other boys had to wash all the fire trucks and serve the pancake breakfast and clean up after it, during fire safety week. He was embarassed to be doing that work because everyone knew why he was there doing it. Whereas he takes great pride in the time he donates elsewhere. Very different feeling for it, and for non violent juveniles giving back to the community after taking from it is very effective for most of them.

 

That was a very logical consequence and the punishment fit the situation. Do you feel that it was effective for your son?

[Impish]

I really disagree, they may be behaving in an appalling manner but they are still kids. If one treats someone like criminals and puts them among criminals then they will grow up to be criminals. They need to be removed from that situation, not placed in a worse one.

 

This is NOT uncommon behavior for teen boys. When they are bored, in groups, a lot of them act like thugs. I have always had the opinion that kids need to be kept busy and tired.

I can agree w/your last statement, but threatening to stab someone simply isn't a 'kid' or 'teen' thing. It's criminal, and they should be held responsible.

[Denise in Florida]

I don't agree with it either.

 

I wouldn't want to have my kid volunteer with them.

I wouldn't want my invalid loved one at the nursing home cared for by them.

 

My dd18 is an active volunteer in our county's teen court system. Real crimes, real teens, teens as lawyers/jury/clerks; only adult is the judge.

 

Most defendants receive various punishments including community service. It is very difficult for them to find agencies willing to take them on so they can earn their hours. Most places that use volunteers won't permit these kids in. They end up doing a lot of 'clean up' work.

[Juniper]

I was assigned community service in my early teen years. It was during a phase of "tough love" with my mother that I think actually backfired. Anyhow, by the time it went to the sentencing she felt horrible, the person I had "wronged" felt horrible, so I was granted my choice of community service projects. I chose to do my community service at the horse barn I was a student at. I mucked stalls and did various other chores. Not exactly torture. ;)

 

There is a certain plasticity in the Juvenile system. I am grateful that I benefited from that (that they were able to take into account that this was a nonsense, parental power trip), that I had a Grandfather who was a district attorney and went to bat for me while taking his grown daughter to task.

 

I am glad community service is there for young people like myself whose parents want to turn the court into their disciplinarian, whether on purpose or through neglect. I am not a huge fan of community service for juveniles who are beyond their first offense or who have cause injury to another person or animal, unless it involves working within a juvenile/adult detention facility.

[Slartibartfast]

I can agree w/your last statement, but threatening to stab someone simply isn't a 'kid' or 'teen' thing. It's criminal, and they should be held responsible.

 

 

http://news.yahoo.com/bullying-teachers-more-damaging-online-era-131037020.html

 

It is common. I don't think a blind eye should be turned to it but I don't think they should be treated like criminals either

Edited June 23, 2012 by Sis

[tex-mex]

Community service isn't punishment. It's restitution to the community that your actions have harmed. I don't think it's should be the only recourse but I think a lot more people should be sentenced to do it - and face punishment as well.

:iagree:

And many groups who select volunteers do not want those who have COURT-APPOINTED community service volunteers. The group I work with do not and background check all applicants.

[tex-mex]

 

Most defendants receive various punishments including community service. It is very difficult for them to find agencies willing to take them on so they can earn their hours. Most places that use volunteers won't permit these kids in. They end up doing a lot of 'clean up' work.

:iagree:

[Impish]

http://news.yahoo.com/bullying-teachers-more-damaging-online-era-131037020.html

I'm not sure what your link is meant to demonstrate. Previous articles did mention that there were threats of stabbing and bodily harm.

[myfunnybunch]

Community service isn't punishment. It's restitution to the community that your actions have harmed. I don't think it's should be the only recourse but I think a lot more people should be sentenced to do it - and face punishment as well.

 

:iagree:

 

It's good for young people to have hard work to do.

 

Cat

[Juniper]

I really disagree, they may be behaving in an appalling manner but they are still kids. If one treats someone like criminals and puts them among criminals then they will grow up to be criminals. They need to be removed from that situation, not placed in a worse one.

 

This is NOT uncommon behavior for teen boys. When they are bored, in groups, a lot of them act like thugs. I have always had the opinion that kids need to be kept busy and tired.

The nature of what they did crosses a line in my mind. My grandfather would tell me stories about his cases as a public defender. There were some juvenile cases. He would take these kids to a detention facility with him. He WANTED them to get a really good look at where they were heading. Sometimes they went to an adult prison. I think it also went far with the judge that they had taken proactive steps to get the young people back on the right track.

[Slartibartfast]

The nature of what they did crosses a line in my mind. My grandfather would tell me stories about his cases as a public defender. There were some juvenile cases. He would take these kids to a detention facility with him. He WANTED them to get a really good look at where they were heading. Sometimes they went to an adult prison. I think it also went far with the judge that they had taken proactive steps to get the young people back on the right track.

 

I am not arguing against that sort of thing.

[Impish]

Specifically mentions she was threatened w/'stab in the belly'

 

http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_hillsborough/a-bus-monitor-wont-press-charges-against-kids-who-called-her-fat-and-threatened-to-stab-her-belly

[Slartibartfast]

I'm not sure what your link is meant to demonstrate. Previous articles did mention that there were threats of stabbing and bodily harm.

 

It states that in the article I linked.

 

The most recent school safety report from the National Center for Education Statistics, the data branch of the U.S. Department of Education, found that 5 percent of public schools reported students verbally abused teachers on a daily or weekly basis. Also, 8 percent of secondary school teachers reported being threatened with injury by a student, as did 7 percent of elementary teachers.

 

One of the new ways that students are harassing teachers has become known as "cyberbaiting." Students irritate a teacher to the point that the teacher breaks down; that reaction then is captured in photos or video to post online. A Norton Online Family Report published last year found that 21 percent of teachers had experienced or knew another teacher who had experienced "cyberbaiting."

 

I am stating it most certainly is a "teen" thing. I am not being dismissive by stating that but stating it is a growing problem that needs something done. I don't think tossing a bunch of teenagers into an overcrowded and overworked system is going to solve it.

[Education Explorers]

I really disagree, they may be behaving in an appalling manner but they are still kids. If one treats someone like criminals and puts them among criminals then they will grow up to be criminals. They need to be removed from that situation, not placed in a worse one.

 

I must respectfully disagree with you. In my experience the arbitrary label of "kids" does not distinguish whether or not one is a "criminal." As a prosecutor in both Juvenile Court and Superior Court, I had 20 year old "felons" who were really just kids who had a brain fart and 14 year old "kids" were were hard-core, cold, seriously dangerous criminals. The vast majority of kids that I saw in Juvenile Court were just biding time until they were 17 and hit Superior Court (for criminal law in GA, you are considered an "adult" at 17). I am not talking about "pranks" or typical "bullying." I am talking about Aggravated Assault, Rape, Robbery, Child Molestation, Arson, Felony Cruelty to Animals-- truly bad stuff. These "children" would laugh at the judge because they knew the worst thing they could be sentenced to was 90 days in Boot Camp. They had been there, done that and were not afraid to go back.

 

I'm not trying to pick apart your statement, but you can't "put them with criminals" unless you acknowledge that they are indeed "criminals." Kids are held in detention with kids--Thuglettes among thuglettes.

 

We had genuine serial-killer-in-the-making sociopaths in Juvenile Court. They would have mental evaluations by psychologists. The psychologists would explain when questioned that the child met every criteria for the diagnostic label of "sociopath" but was not old enough under their criteria to be labeled a "sociopath." So did that make the kid any less dangerous? Would there be a magic transformation on his birthday that would turn him into a "sociopath" now that he was old enough to be officially labeled one?

 

Obviously this is just my opinion, but I firmly believe that there are indeed "kids" who get in trouble. They are the ones that juvenile court was originally set up to help. But there are also "criminals" who just happen to still be juveniles. For them, the system is wholly inadequate.

[Impish]

http://news.yahoo.com/bullying-teachers-more-damaging-online-era-131037020.html

 

It is common. I don't think a blind eye should be turned to it but I don't think they should be treated like criminals either

I'm honestly missing something.

 

Threatening someone w/bodily harm IS criminal. That's not a debate, it's in criminal law.

 

You break the law, threatening someone w/bodily harm, then you *should* be treated accordingly.

 

I honestly don't understand how their age makes it less criminal to threaten and harass someone.

[mommaduck]

I'm for community service, but not one that places them in the presence of more elderly. They can clean the school grounds, scrub buses, pick up along the highways.

[Slartibartfast]

I'm honestly missing something.

 

Threatening someone w/bodily harm IS criminal. That's not a debate, it's in criminal law.

 

You break the law, threatening someone w/bodily harm, then you *should* be treated accordingly.

 

I honestly don't understand how their age makes it less criminal to threaten and harass someone.

 

What punishment would you recommend? I don't understand what YOU are trying to say. What would you do to these kids if you were a judge and they were standing in front of you? Would you lock them away? What are you disagreeing about?

 

What would YOU do.

[Impish]

It states that in the article I linked.

 

 

 

 

 

I am stating it most certainly is a "teen" thing. I am not being dismissive by stating that but stating it is a growing problem that needs something done. I don't think tossing a bunch of teenagers into an overcrowded and overworked system is going to solve it.

Ah, ok, gotcha.

 

I suggest that NOT being prosecuted, legally, makes them feel emboldened and enabled, like they can do what they please and not reap serious consequences for their actions.

 

In your article, the student SUED for her freedom of speech and won, for pity sakes! B/c she was suspended for having a website dedicated to hating a teacher, and encouraging others to join in.

[swellmomma]

That was a very logical consequence and the punishment fit the situation. Do you feel that it was effective for your son?

 

I do. It has been 2 years since those fires and while we have continued issues with other behaviours he has not had issues with fires since then. Since then we have spoken on random occasions about the consequences he had to face from that. At first he was indignant because he didn't actively set the fires, so he thought he should be fine, BUT I spent a lot of time focusing on guilt by association and being more careful in picking your friends. It really had a positive impact on him in changing that behaviour. The one thing though is that I don't think it was the CS by itself that made the difference it was the fact that I would not let him off the hook, I wouldn't let him say it was all the other boy's fault etc. I supported the fire department in the terms they asked for restitution and that had as much impact on him as the CS did kwim. If a child is assigned to CS but at the end of their hours each day they go home and their family joins them in griping about it and trying to play the victim it doesn't matter kwim

[Slartibartfast]

Ah, ok, gotcha.

 

I suggest that NOT being prosecuted, legally, makes them feel emboldened and enabled, like they can do what they please and not reap serious consequences for their actions.

 

In your article, the student SUED for her freedom of speech and won, for pity sakes! B/c she was suspended for having a website dedicated to hating a teacher, and encouraging others to join in.

 

 

I am not saying they shouldn't be prosecuted, I am saying I don't think they should be sent to Juvie.

[Impish]

What punishment would you recommend? I don't understand what YOU are trying to say. What would you do to these kids if you were a judge and they were standing in front of you? Would you lock them away? What are you disagreeing about?

 

What would YOU do.

First, I don't know what the limits/guidelines are for juvenile court, but they'd absolutely be convicted for threatening bodily harm, b/c it's a criminal act.

 

I'm disagreeing w/your premise that they aren't criminals, or didn't commit a criminal act. They absolutely DID.

[Slartibartfast]

First, I don't know what the limits/guidelines are for juvenile court, but they'd absolutely be convicted for threatening bodily harm, b/c it's a criminal act.

 

I'm disagreeing w/your premise that they aren't criminals, or didn't commit a criminal act. They absolutely DID.

I didn't ask you what the limits were, I asked you what you would do. I was asking why you felt I was wrong in feeling community service was adequate when that is likely what a judge would recommend.

 

I wasn't saying I don't think they should be prosecuted.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Sis

[Slartibartfast]

I must respectfully disagree with you. In my experience the arbitrary label of "kids" does not distinguish whether or not one is a "criminal." As a prosecutor in both Juvenile Court and Superior Court, I had 20 year old "felons" who were really just kids who had a brain fart and 14 year old "kids" were were hard-core, cold, seriously dangerous criminals. The vast majority of kids that I saw in Juvenile Court were just biding time until they were 17 and hit Superior Court (for criminal law in GA, you are considered an "adult" at 17). I am not talking about "pranks" or typical "bullying." I am talking about Aggravated Assault, Rape, Robbery, Child Molestation, Arson, Felony Cruelty to Animals-- truly bad stuff. These "children" would laugh at the judge because they knew the worst thing they could be sentenced to was 90 days in Boot Camp. They had been there, done that and were not afraid to go back.

 

I'm not trying to pick apart your statement, but you can't "put them with criminals" unless you acknowledge that they are indeed "criminals." Kids are held in detention with kids--Thuglettes among thuglettes.

 

We had genuine serial-killer-in-the-making sociopaths in Juvenile Court. They would have mental evaluations by psychologists. The psychologists would explain when questioned that the child met every criteria for the diagnostic label of "sociopath" but was not old enough under their criteria to be labeled a "sociopath." So did that make the kid any less dangerous? Would there be a magic transformation on his birthday that would turn him into a "sociopath" now that he was old enough to be officially labeled one?

 

Obviously this is just my opinion, but I firmly believe that there are indeed "kids" who get in trouble. They are the ones that juvenile court was originally set up to help. But there are also "criminals" who just happen to still be juveniles. For them, the system is wholly inadequate.

 

I do not think "kids" distinguishes whether or not someone is a criminal.

 

I am saying, I don't think they should be placed among the rapists, felons, animal abusers, molesters. I think that makes things worse.

[swellmomma]

I thought that some of you pondering these things might enjoy the book "They did the crime you be the judge" with your teens. EAch chapter focuses on a real juvie case in front of the judge. It goes through prior history, the teen's reactions etc and then gives a list of what decisions you can make as the judge and discuss the whys of that choice. Then it tells how the real judge sentenced the teen and how the teen was doing at the time of writing. My kids really enjoy this book, and have been learning a lot about things they thought was just kid stuff but actually counts as an illegal activity (such as the case of an out of control young teen charged with assualt after beating up his younger sibling 1 too many times etc) It goes through all sorts of cases, from drug charges, to bullying, to assault to shoplifting etc.

[Denise in Florida]

I do. It has been 2 years since those fires and while we have continued issues with other behaviours he has not had issues with fires since then. Since then we have spoken on random occasions about the consequences he had to face from that. At first he was indignant because he didn't actively set the fires, so he thought he should be fine, BUT I spent a lot of time focusing on guilt by association and being more careful in picking your friends. It really had a positive impact on him in changing that behaviour. The one thing though is that I don't think it was the CS by itself that made the difference it was the fact that I would not let him off the hook, I wouldn't let him say it was all the other boy's fault etc. I supported the fire department in the terms they asked for restitution and that had as much impact on him as the CS did kwim. If a child is assigned to CS but at the end of their hours each day they go home and their family joins them in griping about it and trying to play the victim it doesn't matter kwim

 

:iagree: It is very human to try to shift the blame but one of the hardest lessons to teach our kids is that some times it really is your fault.

 

One of my dd's was in a car accident (no injuries, fairly minimal damages). She had not been driving dangerously (not speeding, not tailgating) but the accident was her fault in that she was the only driver that could have prevented it. She received a ticket. She complained endlessly :lol:. I did not allow her to blame the other drivers, the cop, the cruel cruel world. :glare: She had to take the driver's class and she lost car privledges.

[Impish]

I didn't ask you what the limits were, I asked you what you would do. I was asking why you felt I was wrong in feeling community service was adequate when that is likely what a judge would recommend.

 

I wasn't saying I don't think they should be prosecuted.

OK, I think we're misunderstanding ea other, and it's from a response I read that stated they weren't criminals. *That* is where the disagreement stems from.

 

To me, 'criminal' does not automatically = juvie.

 

I have no problem w/community service as punishment. I think a fine would be apropos as well...a hefty one that goes towards an organization for elder abuse. And something that ensures that Mommy and Daddy are NOT allowed to pay for it on behalf of Jr. (Not that I know how that would be accomplished).

 

And honestly, I don't think a short stint in juvie would be the end of the world either. (I'm thinking wknds, for a cpl of mths?) Maybe, it would seriously drill into these kids that what they did was criminal, not amusing, not ok, not acceptable.

 

What worries me, is that it seems young offenders are not being held legally liable for their actions. So really, what is there that is going to have it through their heads that it is criminal, before they hit the magic age of adulthood? Do we really think that their 18th birthday (or whatever the legal age for criminal prosecution is) is going to flip a switch, and they're suddenly going to discontinue such behaviours?

 

And if that's true...that says a LOT for the malice and cunning of the teens involved, doesn't it?

[Slartibartfast]

OK, I think we're misunderstanding ea other, and it's from a response I read that stated they weren't criminals. *That* is where the disagreement stems from.

 

To me, 'criminal' does not automatically = juvie.

 

I have no problem w/community service as punishment. I think a fine would be apropos as well...a hefty one that goes towards an organization for elder abuse. And something that ensures that Mommy and Daddy are NOT allowed to pay for it on behalf of Jr. (Not that I know how that would be accomplished).

 

And honestly, I don't think a short stint in juvie would be the end of the world either. (I'm thinking wknds, for a cpl of mths?) Maybe, it would seriously drill into these kids that what they did was criminal, not amusing, not ok, not acceptable.

 

What worries me, is that it seems young offenders are not being held legally liable for their actions. So really, what is there that is going to have it through their heads that it is criminal, before they hit the magic age of adulthood? Do we really think that their 18th birthday (or whatever the legal age for criminal prosecution is) is going to flip a switch, and they're suddenly going to discontinue such behaviours?

 

And if that's true...that says a LOT for the malice and cunning of the teens involved, doesn't it?

 

My problem with Juvie was what Education Explorers was describing. One would basically be locking up kids who had been stupid with rapists, people who HAD stabbed people, child molesters and others who do have real issues.

 

Juvenile courts were set up for stupid kid stuff but that isn't what is happening there.

 

http://www.childrensdefense.org/programs-campaigns/cradle-to-prison-pipeline/

 

I don't think a fine would necessarily work since many in the juvenile system are impoverished. But I can see community service working to pay off a fine.

[Education Explorers]

My problem with Juvie was what Education Explorers was describing. One would basically be locking up kids who had been stupid with rapists, people who HAD stabbed people, child molesters and others who do have real issues.

 

Juvenile courts were set up for stupid kid stuff but that isn't what is happening there.

 

http://www.childrensdefense.org/programs-campaigns/cradle-to-prison-pipeline/

 

I don't think a fine would necessarily work since many in the juvenile system are impoverished. But I can see community service working to pay off a fine.

 

I think you may misunderstand my point. Judges try to be very careful not to put kids who have brain farts with the thuglette criminals. They bend over backwards and try to be creative to avoid doing just that. (I may be generalizing, but I find it hard to imagine that our county is the only one with conscientious judges.) They even try to keep them segregated in holding cells while waiting for court if they can.

 

Our judges do tended to lock up brain fart, bad-attitude kids in holding cells at the courthouse in the morning and then hold the kid's hearing after lunch. It was amazing the transformation. It was like a mini-courthouse version of "Scared Straight."

 

These kids were the vast MINORITY. The MAJORITY of kids in the Juvenile system are on the fast track to nowhere, except prison.

 

The girl in the other post who was cutting a 3 year olds hair, also was making terroristic threats and it also sounded like she was stalking another child. That is not a simply case of kids pulling pranks. That kind of behavior should be waving a red flag---manipulative, controlling, lack of empathy, sadism perhaps... That kid is majorly headed in the wrong direction and clearly will not be straightened out with her mother's guidance (based on her comments).

[Tarreymere]

My daughter is now an adult and is a sociopath.

 

When she was a teen, my daughter wouldn't learn empathy from community service that involved being around people. She learned to feign empathy and remorse from doing some community service work she found unpleasant, like picking up trash in the sun. It wasn't much of a punishment, since she was also pretty and charming and was able to talk her way out of a lot of it.

 

What worked better was being incaercerated and that has been the best deterrent of all in her case. I'm not talking just about boot camp or a stint in an adolescent residential facility with tv and cupcakes. REAL incarceration messed with her comfort level for months at a time. :D That is the only thing that ever made her think twice about doing something.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Rainefox

[Education Explorers]

My daughter is now an adult and is a sociopath.

 

When she was a teen, my daughter wouldn't learn empathy from community service that involved being around people. She learned to feign empathy and remorse from doing some community service work she found unpleasant, like picking up trash in the sun. It wasn't much of a punishment, since she was also pretty and charming and was able to talk her way out of a lot of it.

 

What worked better was being incaercerated and that has been the best deterrent of all in her case. I'm not talking just about boot camp or a stint in an adolescent residential facility with tv and cupcakes. REAL incarceration messed with her comfort level for months at a time. :D That is the only thing that ever made her think twice about doing something.

 

I am so sorry! I cannot even imagine how difficult things have been and are for your family.

 

I have never forgotten the anguish of a mother who begged the court and the psychologists for help for her child. For the her own safety, she slept behind a dead-bolted door with a cell phone in her hand-- her child was that dangerous. If only there was a magic fix...

[jujsky]

Community service can be a park clean-up, picking up trash on the side of the road, painting over graffiti. It doesn't have to involve working with other people who are donating their time. I think it can be appropriate, depending on the infraction and the type of community service.

[kalanamak]

Luckily we had no problems and the girls were unaware of why other people were "volunteering."

 

 

I would certainly tell my son afterwards. I grew up in an innocent world and had no idea how "normal" criminals could appear. I want him to know.

 

Around here, there are road clean up crews. I'm terribly pleased to see them.

[kalanamak]

 

The girl in the other post who was cutting a 3 year olds hair, also was making terroristic threats and it also sounded like she was stalking another child. That is not a simply case of kids pulling pranks. That kind of behavior should be waving a red flag---manipulative, controlling, lack of empathy, sadism perhaps... That kid is majorly headed in the wrong direction and clearly will not be straightened out with her mother's guidance (based on her comments).

 

:iagree:. I don't see kids, but I see a lot of 18-22 year olds, and I read the records. Like bad melodramas, painful to read, and at the same time unbelievably extreme.