Help me think this through....dd5 dicipline issue

[Tap]

DD5 has aspergers and impulse control issues. She is very high functioning, fully verbal, and is generally obedient (abeit with huge tantrums as she stomps away lol ).

 

Friday, she was playing outside. SHe asked to get a friend to play with. A little girl, who was outside, down the street 3-4 houses (close packed neighborhood). I said yes, but they could only play in our yard. 15 minutes later, when I check on her, dd5 is no where to be found. DD13 and I go looking for her and find her inside another kid's house, that we don't know. We found out later, that these neighbors saw the girls outside and invited both of the girls in for a birthday party (age appropriate circumstances).

 

I had dd come immediately inside and she lost all electronics that night as a consequence (an earned treat for good behavior). When we talked about it....she knew she was in the wrong, so this isn't an issue of her misunderstanding the rules. If anything, she is EXTRA obedient on the boundary rules (Aspergers trait). She kept saying "but they were having a party and they invited me!" We talked several times and she understood that next time she needs to talk to me first before changing locations/going into houses.

 

 

Saturday. A 4yo neighbor was playing with dd5 in the yard. The girls disappeared. The father of the 4yo and I went looking for them and found them about a block away on a curved road/culdesac. The boys they were playing with live behind us and they asked them through the fence, to come to their house and play basketball. Without saying a word, they went down the block and into a small flag lot/culdesac.

 

I had dd come inside immediately. When I asked her if she should be in trouble she said "big trouble". She ABSOLUTELY knew it was wrong and that she was going to get into trouble for it. This is not in question,not in the least.

 

Sunday. I had her stay inside the whole day. This is a Huge punishment for her as she is outside many hours each day. She doesn't play with indoor toys. If she is inside, she is on electronics. She has minimal imagination, so toys don't make a lot of sense to her. She sits outside waiting for kids to come play with her in our yard.

 

Monday. She has preschool and gymnastics. We get home at 3pm. I only let her play outside for 30 minutes, and then she had to be inside the rest of the day.

 

 

 

Where do I go from here. With my older kids, I would have baby stepped them back through the boundary guidelines. Lessening the reins a bit each day until they could 'prove' to me that they were going to obey. BUt their boundary issues were just going a bit further than they were supposed to....not a full block away...and not inside someones house!

 

With such blatant disregard for the rules, I don't know if I should keep her inside more....which encourages unhealthy electronics play/TV....or let it go with the one day of consequence.

 

I can't be outside with her every hour she is outside. Half of the time she is out there is isn't even playing, just sitting on the bench....being outside.

 

Our lawn mower is in the repair shop so the grass is too high (hides biting spiders) in the back yard to play, so the front yard is the only choice right now(it was mowed last week before the mower broke).

 

 

As far as neighborhoods go, I feel it is safe. In reality she wasn't in danger, but choices like these could obviously be a problem. I had no idea if I should start checking trunks or looking around the neighborhood!

 

Help me think this through! Please!

[ssavings]

:grouphug:

 

I can't imagine! How scary!

 

No advice, but sympathy. My DD5 (neurotypical) wouldn't do well out front on her own, so we've never tried it (she's a "get distracted and wander off" type, even in stores!), but, yeah, kiddos need to be outside, for sure!

[myfunnybunch]

Do you think she would benefit from some role-play? Lots of role play? What do you do if....(a stranger comes, someone invites you to a birthday party, you see a strange dog in the yard).

 

I think your consequences sound reasonable. And I know that many children on the spectrum struggle with cause and effect and impulse control (great combination, right?) so even if they can identify the behavior and impending consequence afterward, thinking of it in the moment is a challenge. Maybe consequences or outcomes could be emphasized as part of the role play..."You made a good choice! Yes, you can go play at friend's house!" (for pretend, since you're role playing) or "What if you made this choice instead? Is that a safe choice? What happens when we make an unsafe choice?"

 

Cat

[Trilliums]

Maybe a physical boundary that help trigger the rule to ask mom before leaving the yard. Sidewalk chalk? Little yard flags? Before she can cross them she has to ask permission.

[SpecialClassical]

Well, keeping in mind that she is not a neurotypical kid, you are in a difficult spot. I don't know if your daughter has FAS, but it sounds like she has some similar traits. Kids with neuro damage can know the rules inside and out and realize after the fact that they broke the rules. (Or they may not realize they broke the rules, but readily identify others breaking rules.) The problem comes in the moment when the temptation is before them. A nt kid would often think about the consequences and exercise self control. A neuro challenged kid would act *before* the other part of their brain got the message across that they should not. So by the time the message gets there, if it does, the child has already acted on impulse and is now stuck.

 

Giving logical consequences for this type of behavior doesn't work for many kids. In my experience, setting the child up for success is the best option. That way, every time the child encounters the temptation and is able to resist (with help), the neuropathway of self-control is strengthened. Well, that is the theory. Now, I know this is tricky because in my experience the child in my life with FAS has a mild case and actually gets cause/effect sometimes and is able to learn from consequences in some circumstances. The key is identifying those times. And it is so very hard and it is so very exhausting.

 

I think in your case your daughter needs more supervision or a gated fence. With my kiddo a physical boundary was very helpful. It sounds like she lives in the moment without regard to consequences because consequences come later and have no bearing on the present circumstances.

 

Also, many normal five year olds would have trouble with wandering and following the rules if they have too much freedom.

 

I hope this helps. I have followed your story for a while and admire your committment to your daughter.

[didadeewiththree]

I've had to pull the reins in on my 6 yr old son and 7 yr old daughter for going in and out of people's yards when I didn't give them permission to do so. I make it a rule to say outside, no going inside people's houses, and that I must know which yard they are in so that I can find them quickly.

 

I would think that she would have learned her lesson and maybe you could establish a few base rules of your own and let her know that the consequence will be the same if it happens again. I wouldn't permenatly take away the great outdoors from her, but at five it's hard for them to be upheld to the rules unless there are several reminders.

[Gingerbread Mama]

Do you know a neighbor well enough to explain the situation and ask to borrow their mower this once? If the back is fenced and/or she would be more rule compliant in the back I'd do that. As the mom of one who doesn't often do toys and relies on electronics in doors, I'd be inclined to try to keep her out if at all possible.

[Rosie_0801]

Sounds like she needs to be coached to say "Sure! I just have to tell my mum!"

 

Of course she should be *asking* not *telling* but it is stronger language to use to her playmates.

 

Rosie

[Tap]

:grouphug:

 

I can't imagine! How scary!

 

No advice, but sympathy. My DD5 (neurotypical) wouldn't do well out front on her own, so we've never tried it (she's a "get distracted and wander off" type, even in stores!), but, yeah, kiddos need to be outside, for sure!

 

She has been allowed outside for about a year. We have large picture windows on the front and back so I can see her from almost anywhere in the house. This is the first time she has had this issue. :( We 'baby stepped' to this point because she always wants to be outside.

[Tap]

Do you think she would benefit from some role-play? Lots of role play? What do you do if....(a stranger comes, someone invites you to a birthday party, you see a strange dog in the yard).

 

I think your consequences sound reasonable. And I know that many children on the spectrum struggle with cause and effect and impulse control (great combination, right?) so even if they can identify the behavior and impending consequence afterward, thinking of it in the moment is a challenge. Maybe consequences or outcomes could be emphasized as part of the role play..."You made a good choice! Yes, you can go play at friend's house!" (for pretend, since you're role playing) or "What if you made this choice instead? Is that a safe choice? What happens when we make an unsafe choice?"

 

Cat

 

:iagree:We did some role play tonight. We use that tool a lot around here. LOL

 

I agree about the cause and effect issue. It is hard to have consequences for her, because they really don't do much good. We do more good here, practicing what is right instead of punishing what is wrong. In this case, I just really need to cover my bases!

[Tap]

Maybe a physical boundary that help trigger the rule to ask mom before leaving the yard. Sidewalk chalk? Little yard flags? Before she can cross them she has to ask permission.

 

Our yard is clearly marked, so while that is great idea...it would be redundant. Our rule is that she is allowed in the grass and our porches. If she goes on the sidewalk, she has to ask (offers a safe buffer zone before the street). There are sidewalks/fences on all the edges.

[ktgrok]

Maybe a physical boundary that help trigger the rule to ask mom before leaving the yard. Sidewalk chalk? Little yard flags? Before she can cross them she has to ask permission.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

If nothing else I would walk the edge of the yard with her the next few times she goes out, and say that she can't cross that line without asking permission first. See if that helps.

[ktgrok]

:iagree:We did some role play tonight. We use that tool a lot around here. LOL

 

I agree about the cause and effect issue. It is hard to have consequences for her, because they really don't do much good. We do more good here, practicing what is right instead of punishing what is wrong. In this case, I just really need to cover my bases!

 

Oh yes, the total lack of ability to understand cause and effect. I remember those days well! I can say that my preteen Aspie is finally starting to get that. It didn't happen until recently though, I'm afraid.

 

I agree that role playing is the best idea. Maybe switch it up so you are the kid, and she tells you what to say, to make it more fun?

[Tap]

Well, keeping in mind that she is not a neurotypical kid, you are in a difficult spot. I don't know if your daughter has FAS, but it sounds like she has some similar traits. Kids with neuro damage can know the rules inside and out and realize after the fact that they broke the rules. (Or they may not realize they broke the rules, but readily identify others breaking rules.) The problem comes in the moment when the temptation is before them. A nt kid would often think about the consequences and exercise self control. A neuro challenged kid would act *before* the other part of their brain got the message across that they should not. So by the time the message gets there, if it does, the child has already acted on impulse and is now stuck.

 

Giving logical consequences for this type of behavior doesn't work for many kids. In my experience, setting the child up for success is the best option. That way, every time the child encounters the temptation and is able to resist (with help), the neuropathway of self-control is strengthened. Well, that is the theory. Now, I know this is tricky because in my experience the child in my life with FAS has a mild case and actually gets cause/effect sometimes and is able to learn from consequences in some circumstances. The key is identifying those times. And it is so very hard and it is so very exhausting.

 

I think in your case your daughter needs more supervision or a gated fence. With my kiddo a physical boundary was very helpful. It sounds like she lives in the moment without regard to consequences because consequences come later and have no bearing on the present circumstances.

 

Also, many normal five year olds would have trouble with wandering and following the rules if they have too much freedom.

 

I hope this helps. I have followed your story for a while and admire your commitment to your daughter.

 

We do suspect some FAS, but we are not certain to what extent. Her bio-mom tested positive to alcohol/marijuana during pregnancy. The cause/effect is a problem for her, in that she can tell me the consequences for her actions...but will still give in to temptation. :banghead: It doesn't seem to matter how big of a consequence either. Like your child, she lives 100% in the moment. This was one rule that we worked really, really hard on establishing the boundaries for, and she had been successful for a full year! I think this is one of the first times she had kids invite her somewhere though. I think the temptation was just too much. If she had 'wandered' away, I would suspect that the freedom was too much....but I don't really think that is the issue. I probably do need to supervise her more, but honestly that is going to end up meaning she is inside more. Our yard is very, very clearly marked. I hate to put up a fence because our yard is open for the kids to play in. We keep it nice and don't have pets. We like that the kids can run and play without obstacles.

[Tap]

Sounds like she needs to be coached to say "Sure! I just have to tell my mum!"

 

Of course she should be *asking* not *telling* but it is stronger language to use to her playmates.

 

Rosie

 

I think we do too. She requires us to teach her so many things that NT kids just pick up from being around other kids. It is so hard to think about Every. Little. Thing. That she needs to know. :svengo: No wonder kids are so tired at night....it is hard work to learn all the ways of the world!

[Tap]

Do you know a neighbor well enough to explain the situation and ask to borrow their mower this once? If the back is fenced and/or she would be more rule compliant in the back I'd do that. As the mom of one who doesn't often do toys and relies on electronics in doors, I'd be inclined to try to keep her out if at all possible.

 

The mower will be back in a couple of days and the weather won't be nice enough to mow before then anyways. :(

 

I also finally thought through the idea that the back yard may not work anyways......she was in the back yard when the boys invited her to play basketbal and then she took off with the 4yo. OY! :001_rolleyes:

[Jean in Newcastle]

Get two timers. Put both on for 30 min. (or whatever time seems appropriate to you). She has one timer outside with her - you have one timer in with you. When her timer goes off, she has to come in and check in with you. Your timer is so that you know that you can expect to see her for a check in. Perhaps having to check in at regular, not too long intervals will keep her at home, or at least alert you to a problem quickly.

[Tap]

Get two timers. Put both on for 30 min. (or whatever time seems appropriate to you). She has one timer outside with her - you have one timer in with you. When her timer goes off, she has to come in and check in with you. Your timer is so that you know that you can expect to see her for a check in. Perhaps having to check in at regular, not too long intervals will keep her at home, or at least alert you to a problem quickly.

 

I may need to do that, but it will be less than 30. :D I check on her visually every 5-10 minutes and talk to her every 10-15. We have large windows so this is very easy to do. I actually see her more often than every 5, (I usually sit in the window with my computer-she is just 15-20 feet in front of me most of the time) but I make sure to actually check on her regularly (more than just seeing her run by out of the corner of my eye), due to her age. The reason she was gone for 15 minutes the first time, was that she was supposed to ask the girl to play and then come back. I know that it can take a few minutes for kids to pick up, decided if they want to play and then ask parents. When she wasn't back in 15, I went looking for her.

[WTMCassandra]

Okay, I don't have any experience with Aspie or FAS kids, but I did have this wild idea.

 

Since she is into electronics and also lives 100% in the moment, could you give her a really basic cell phone (that can only call you) or a walkie-talkie? You might be checking on her every 5 minutes through the window, but she doesn't realize you are supervising. I think it adds to the disconnect.

 

So what if every 15 minutes you call her (on phone or walkie-talkie) and ask her where she is and what she is doing (even if you can see HER and know)? I mean you do this is a really nice way not a punitive way. This engages her in the process of checking in with you and knowing she is supervised. At minimum, she will have to stop and think about where she is every 15 minutes to respond to you, which should build awareness, I would think.

 

So I'm saying that perhaps you should use her strength (technology) to help coach her through her weakness (impulsivity).

 

Of course, YMMV because I haven't been in your shoes.

[5LittleMonkeys]

The walkie talkies are a great idea and I have used them since we moved into a neighborhood. Ds5 gets such a kick out of using it that he always calls to report that he is going into so and so's yard now, or asking if he can have a snack at this ones house, or play in that one's house. It also gives me peace of mind.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I love walkie talkies! Mine use them when thry go to the end of the block and i cant see them. Ds is now able to ride his scooter to the end without dd because of the walkie talkies.

 

I would not take away something that was earned for good behavior.

 

Aspie or fas, 5 is just young fir any of this to stick. It sounds like the only option is to increase supervision.

[JudoMom]

I may need to do that, but it will be less than 30. :D I check on her visually every 5-10 minutes and talk to her every 10-15. We have large windows so this is very easy to do. I actually see her more often than every 5, (I usually sit in the window with my computer-she is just 15-20 feet in front of me most of the time) but I make sure to actually check on her regularly (more than just seeing her run by out of the corner of my eye), due to her age. The reason she was gone for 15 minutes the first time, was that she was supposed to ask the girl to play and then come back. I know that it can take a few minutes for kids to pick up, decided if they want to play and then ask parents. When she wasn't back in 15, I went looking for her.

 

Could you tell her that she's not allowed to go ask kids to play without you? I can't tell if she's successfully done this before (asked a kid to play and come back immediately), but it seems like that might provide too much temptation for her.

 

While she's in the front yard, could you make her boundary smaller? Put up flags as someone suggested, so that it gave her more time to think as she was leaving the approved area?

[Lisa in Jax]

I think we do too. She requires us to teach her so many things that NT kids just pick up from being around other kids. It is so hard to think about Every. Little. Thing. That she needs to know. :svengo: No wonder kids are so tired at night....it is hard work to learn all the ways of the world!

 

Boy oh boy, do I empathize with this. Our ds 13, (adopted from India at age 4.5), has nonverbal learning challenges and he sounds a LOT like your dd. It's so tiring for *us* to pre-think every situation and try to give him a plan or rules for each situation. He cannot generalize rules, so I find myself making up absurdly specific rules or ridiculously broad ones. <sigh>

 

Even with rules for every conceivable situation, we're constantly dealing with "act first, think later." He knows the rules, but it doesn't matter -- he often does what he wants to do anyway. It just does not make sense to him to think about the rule before doing/acting.

 

And in typical teen fashion, he does not yet think logically and cannot easily see others' points of view, so he's shocked and/or angry when we remind him of the known rule and expect him to follow it. ACK.

 

I love him, but his nonverbal learning challenges can make him SO exhausting to parent sometimes.

 

Lisa

[NanceXToo]

It sounds like you've handled it well. Maybe just more roleplaying and more reminders.

 

Each time she's heading outside, give her a specific reminder about not leaving the yard or going anywhere else without permission (even though you've told her a bunch of times before) so it's fresh in her mind right as she's walking out. Remind her that she doesn't want to have to sit inside a whole day again as a punishment for not listening.

 

Continue the conversational/roleplaying games frequently.

 

The walkie talkies are a good idea!

[swellmomma]

I have not read all the posts yet but at 5 years old she should not be outside without an adult at all imo. After the very first incident you should have said no more outside time without a big person to supervise period. I would not punish further than you already did because I believe you hold some responsibility in this. You failed to properly supervise and she made a poor judgement call. That is not the aspergers. That is being 5. If anyone should be punished in this situation it is you as the parent.

 

What to do from here. Child does not go outside without a parent or older sibling that can supervise her while she plays. That would prevent the wandering away.

[Barbara H]

You've gotten a lot of great advice - love the creative ideas with the timer and the walkie talkie.

 

My main thought would be to try to remember that punishment tends to not be a particularly good teacher, particularly for kids with special needs. So, I'd try first when you hit a situation to consider "what doesn't she understand?" "what do we need to teach."

 

Kids with Asperger's tend to have difficulty generalizing from one situation to the next and difficulty sorting out conflicting rules. So, while the connection may be obvious to us or to a neurotypical kid, the birthday party may seem really different than boys playing basketball.

 

Social stories might be worth exploring. I am concerned if she can't remember boundaries with leaving the yard that she is vulnerable and that's not a good situation. So, maybe it needs to be boiled down to the very simplest rule possible. You must always ask Mom or Dad before you leave the yard.