Rigor and the transcript

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'm trying to think this through so bear with me, please! I know that if ds14 went to our local high school he would be getting easy A's. I know this not because "we're homeschooling, so of course it's true." I know this because I've talked to ds's friends who go to the high school that he would be attending here and I've seen their work. (And no, I wasn't quizzing them but it comes up naturally in conversation.) Ds doesn't want easy A's. He likes the rigor and he likes having to really think. Grading has been the biggest "how to homeschool high school" struggle for me. I think I'm learning some fair but honest ways to grade his work. I don't know what his final 9th grade subject grades will be but I think they will be all A's and B's. I'm wondering - does that matter to colleges? I mean would they look at his transcript with some B's in there but a whole lot of rigor and compare that positively against a transcripts of all As that are a whole lot of fluff? Or will his PSAT/SAT/ACT scores trump all?

[WTMCassandra]

Jean, I'm right at the same life stage you are, so I don't have any BTDT answers. Unfortunately, the best answer is the mantra "Ask the College." I recommend polling a few sample colleges that you think your son might be interested in and see what they say.

 

In the meantime, I would recommend the following:

1) Make your course titles brief, clear, and meaningful. You have the right to say "Honors" in the title if you want.

2) Be ready to back this up with course descriptions.

3) Be ready to back this up with deliverables (essays, tests, etc.) if asked, along with texts used. Choose a standard of grading and stick to it all four years. When you write each course description, state ahead of time what the student will be graded on in each course.

4) Be sure that your grades tell a coherent story with the SAT scores. Really high grades with really low SAT scores will cause all of the "mommy grade" demons to rear their ugly heads.

 

I think if you do all four of these, that your student will be favorably looked upon by most colleges.

 

At least that's the assumption I am proceeding under. ; )

 

But I CAN say that keeping all of these records is a real pain in the patootie. I'm sure missing our K-8 days when many things were oral and grades were not on the radar screen.

[Laura Corin]

Would it be possible to make it more like a European record: document each subject with SAT II/AP subject exams so that there are no 'mummy-marks' on the transcript at all? Just for a comparison, Calvin will be applying to university with about ten subjects documented at around a SAT II level and about three or four at around an AP level. Would colleges appreciate these kinds of concrete public-exam-based grades? Calvin will have a few non-examined subjects (RE, PE, social education) but you could just grade those pass/fail.

 

Just an idea..... I would have no idea how to grade if I were in your situation.

 

Laura

[Gwen in VA]

I would try to make the transcript reflect the rigor of your classes.

 

I would think twice before giving out B's in areas he is strong in.

 

1) Mommy grades don't count much, but they need to be there, and they need to be good. (If your MOTHER won't give you an A, who will?)

 

2) Course descriptions describing challenging classes help add "rigor" to the transcript.

 

3) Ultimately in homeschooling, grades from outside classes (CC, local 4-year college) and scores from tests provide "verification" of the rigor of your curriculum.

 

4) Like Laura Corin said, you can try to have an AP exam or SAT-2 in every core subject area. These will give "outside verification" of your child's academic achievements.

 

5) Nowadays straight A's are so standard that I think a 4.0 (or higher if honors and AP classes are scaled) is expected. I told my kids that regardless of the grade I would give them, if they did EXTREMELY well on the relevant test for the subject (SAT-2, AP, etc.) or if they got an A in a college class after they did a preliminary class at home, their transcript would list a grade of "A". I did not want to punish my kids for having a strict mother!

 

6) If your son does well on the standardized tests but has a "B" as a grade, the colleges may think that he passed in work late, missed assignments, or otherwise was a poor worker. (A fair percentage of at least our local high school's grades are based on attendance, participation, and passing in homework, regardless of the quality.)

[Nscribe]

Thank you for asking the question. I am eager to see the responses.

 

For us trying to compare to what local high schools (public or private) is very difficult. The way grades are assigned differs greatly from teacher to teacher, school to school... Some wind up being the results of a curve. Some include allowances for opportunities to earn extra credit. Some include participation/attendance. Some exempt students with a given grade from sitting for final exams.

 

It often seems like the only universal thresholds are things like SAT/ACT, SAT Subject Exams, AP's and so forth.

 

A great deal of what we do will not likely even be included in the final grade as it is responding to meeting areas where either greater remediation or acceleration is meeting needs particular to this one student.

 

Thank you for asking. Wish I could add to the answer, but we are trying to figure it out too.

[Nscribe]

I would try to make the transcript reflect the rigor of your classes.

 

I would think twice before giving out B's in areas he is strong in.

 

1) Mommy grades don't count much, but they need to be there, and they need to be good. (If your MOTHER won't give you an A, who will?)

 

5) Nowadays straight A's are so standard that I think a 4.0 (or higher if honors and AP classes are scaled) is expected. I told my kids that regardless of the grade I would give them, if they did EXTREMELY well on the relevant test for the subject (SAT-2, AP, etc.) or if they got an A in a college class after they did a preliminary class at home, their transcript would list a grade of "A". I did not want to punish my kids for having a strict mother!

 

6) If your son does well on the standardized tests but has a "B" as a grade, the colleges may think that he passed in work late, missed assignments, or otherwise was a poor worker. (A fair percentage of at least our local high school's grades are based on attendance, participation, and passing in homework, regardless of the quality.)

 

I must have been typing as you were posting. You stated the struggle so well. Our ultimate goal is mastery and/or competency and yet our goal may be assessed and reached in a manner that doesn't compare with in school peers.

[snowbeltmom]

For us trying to compare to what local high schools (public or private) is very difficult. The way grades are assigned differs greatly from teacher to teacher, school to school... Some wind up being the results of a curve. Some include allowances for opportunities to earn extra credit. Some include participation/attendance. Some exempt students with a given grade from sitting for final exams.

 

It often seems like the only universal thresholds are things like SAT/ACT, SAT Subject Exams, AP's and so forth.

:iagree:

 

I also think the universal thresholds are the outside standardized tests - that is why the colleges need that data.

 

Imo, grades are only relevant in a classroom setting, and even then, the grade received can only be compared to other students in that class. An "A" received in chemistry from school district X will not represent the same level of knowledge as an "A" received from school district Y. I believe this is why college adcoms say that they look at a student's transcript and determine level of rigor based on the available courses at that particular school and then compare how that student performed grade-wise relative to the other students in that particular school.

 

Unless a college specifically requests it, I am not assigning grades to home studied classes. I have a paragraph addressing this in my home school profile which basically states that my kids do not advance in a topic until complete mastery is obtained at the current level.

 

I have asked a couple of colleges about this approach and they are fine with it. I also know of others whose children have successfully been accepted to colleges without "mommy grades" on the transcript.

 

The NCAA does not share my philosophy, so the transcript I send to them will have "mommy grades."

[Jean in Newcastle]

OK - forgive my ignorance but I looked up the SAT and AP subject tests. The lists I see show stuff like World History or English Literature. I don't see something specifically comparable to the year of Ancient Literature and History that we are doing this year. Now ds will be doing the Medusa Mythology Exam this month. But it's theme (Malicious Monsters and Monstrous Mortals) isn't a complete match to what we've studied either. I have no idea how ds will do. This is a core area of study and I don't want to make it only pass/fail. Thoughts?

[Ester Maria]

Our children have always had two sets of grades:

 

1) The official, "adjusted for inflation" set of grades, in terms of results of external evaluations and formal examinations where they were judged by the same standard as their peers;

2) The unofficial set of "mommy grades", strictly for our private use.

 

Separating the official from the unofficial has always been highly beneficial for us. It has allowed us to focus on our own standards and do our own thing, but it has also made sure that our (atypical) standards would not handicap our children or misrepresent their accomplishment.

 

My children have never had an equivalent of a 4.0 GPA in my book despite being some of the most advanced and accomplished children I have encountered. I measure them against the standards reasonable for them, and without the context of grade inflation.

On the other hand, their official records, according to the examinations conducted and signed by somebody else in a more formal fashion, have always been impeccable. They have not been harmed for having a strict mother. If we were to continue to homeschool through graduation - which does not seem like a probable route for us now, but all options are still open - we would simply continue with that.

 

There are also certain things which are completely absent from the official records. We are fine with that.

 

If I were in your shoes, I would do exactly that: have our own compass of where we are and where we want to be, but leave the formalities to APs, SATIIs, private external evaluations by experts, or other modality of testing that provides a more "tangible" score that you are comfortable with.

 

[...]

 

 

YMMV, just my $.02.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Ester Maria
edited personal info

[Jane in NC]

1) Make your course titles brief, clear, and meaningful. You have the right to say "Honors" in the title if you want.

2) Be ready to back this up with course descriptions.

3) Be ready to back this up with deliverables (essays, tests, etc.) if asked, along with texts used. Choose a standard of grading and stick to it all four years. When you write each course description, state ahead of time what the student will be graded on in each course.

4) Be sure that your grades tell a coherent story with the SAT scores. Really high grades with really low SAT scores will cause all of the "mommy grade" demons to rear their ugly heads.

 

 

A couple of comments. While "you have the right to say "Honors"", I wonder how meaningful it is to use this word on a homeschool transcript. In a brick and mortar school, the term applies to a class that is more challenging than the basic version of that class. My homeschool did not offer "Honors" courses but I expected "Honors" work.

 

My son's single page transcript was backed up with an eight page document describing courses, books, Teaching Company lectures, outside courses, projects, etc.

 

You can use the search function to find previous discussions on both of these issues: the use of the honors label and course descriptions. Some with argue that the latter is completely unnecessary--that colleges only want a transcript and standardized test scores. I have a different view. Even if the college does not specifically ask for course descriptions, I provided the document. I was thanked by several College Admissions Counselors for this. They want to learn who their applicants are. If they don't know the school, whether that be your homeschool or the Podunk high school down the road, it helps for them to see supporting materials.

 

Start keeping records in 9th! Otherwise you will be hard pressed to remember which translation was used when the stress of finalizing the transcript, writing the counselor letter, etc. come upon you.

[lllll]

..

Edited December 23, 2012 by ksva

[elegantlion]

A couple of comments. While "you have the right to say "Honors"", I wonder how meaningful it is to use this word on a homeschool transcript. In a brick and mortar school, the term applies to a class that is more challenging than the basic version of that class. My homeschool did not offer "Honors" courses but I expected "Honors" work.

 

My son's single page transcript was backed up with an eight page document describing courses, books, Teaching Company lectures, outside courses, projects, etc.

 

You can use the search function to find previous discussions on both of these issues: the use of the honors label and course descriptions. Some with argue that the latter is completely unnecessary--that colleges only want a transcript and standardized test scores. I have a different view. Even if the college does not specifically ask for course descriptions, I provided the document. I was thanked by several College Admissions Counselors for this. They want to learn who their applicants are. If they don't know the school, whether that be your homeschool or the Podunk high school down the road, it helps for them to see supporting materials.

 

Start keeping records in 9th! Otherwise you will be hard pressed to remember which translation was used when the stress of finalizing the transcript, writing the counselor letter, etc. come upon you.

 

Thank you for sharing this. We'll be doing a lot of Great Books in school, and I'd like a way to reflect that reading, among other things.

 

 

Great question, Jean.

[Lori D.]

How wonderful to have an academically motivated DS! :)

 

If AP and SAT II tests don't fit, at least for the Math/Reading portions, you might consider doing a PSAT in 9th grade, or even the ACT or SAT, which would give confirmation to your grades in the Math and English credits. Do consider doing the ACT/SAT carefully, as some schools DO insist on seeing ALL scores if the tests are taken multiple times. Even a standardized test such as the Iowa Basic, Standford, CAT, etc. could be of some confirmation...

 

You might also compare DS's curriculum and abilities with a local rigorous private school's (esp. if they are classical!) curriculum -- even ask how they handle the "comparison" with public schools aspect. Sounds like you might be able to call yourself a "college prep" academy, which runs with a more rigorous program.

 

Along with any transcript you send out, you'll also want to send a document listing your course descriptions, where you will be able to much more accurately reflect the rigor of DS's coursework, and which will help add meaning to his grades. Plus, be sure to include a cover letter of explanation as DS's administrator/school counselor.

 

BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

[Pegasus]

I do not think grades are meaningful for home or self study so I would rather not use grades at all. I used pass/fail in the early grades but my umbrella school requires the standard A-F grades for high school.

 

For most uses, I do not think "mommy" grades are given much weight and, as everyone else has been saying, outside grades and test scores will be much more closely evaluated. It is in all our best interests to be sure our students have some outside verification of their academic preparation.

 

Pegasus

[justamouse]

A couple of comments. While "you have the right to say "Honors"", I wonder how meaningful it is to use this word on a homeschool transcript. In a brick and mortar school, the term applies to a class that is more challenging than the basic version of that class. My homeschool did not offer "Honors" courses but I expected "Honors" work.

 

My son's single page transcript was backed up with an eight page document describing courses, books, Teaching Company lectures, outside courses, projects, etc.

 

You can use the search function to find previous discussions on both of these issues: the use of the honors label and course descriptions. Some with argue that the latter is completely unnecessary--that colleges only want a transcript and standardized test scores. I have a different view. Even if the college does not specifically ask for course descriptions, I provided the document. I was thanked by several College Admissions Counselors for this. They want to learn who their applicants are. If they don't know the school, whether that be your homeschool or the Podunk high school down the road, it helps for them to see supporting materials.

 

Start keeping records in 9th! Otherwise you will be hard pressed to remember which translation was used when the stress of finalizing the transcript, writing the counselor letter, etc. come upon you.

 

Thank you! I've been doing the same, but to know that it works is a weight off. I've talked to a few admissions officers and they said to keep detailed records.

[J-rap]

I'm on my last two in high school, and I STILL struggle with this. In the end, I DO believe we have taught our children to think well and when they take on a project, they do it thoroughly.

Do I think they are 4.0 students as far as pure retained knowledge from textbooks? No, even though our goal is to have a pretty thorough understanding of a topic before moving on. (So in math, for example, I always made sure they really understood the lesson before giving them the exam.) But to me, their writing was never perfect, their scientific knowledge was inadequate, etc. Yet most years in high school, my children opted to take a class or two at the local PS (higher sciences, foreign language, some AP courses, etc.), and they ALWAYS got an A or A+, and they never seemed to work very hard.

So, I usually did what Ester Maria did, giving them a grade which was by local PS standards (as well as I could discern), but also a home evaluation.

So, getting back to where I started... Even though they may have ended up with A's that according to my husband's and my high expectations we weren't completely comfortable with, we ARE very comfortable with their ability to think -- broadly, quite thoroughly, and outside of the box.

Hopefully that comes through in other areas besides homeschool grades. I believe it does.

Come to think of it, I don't think I answered your question very well at all!

[Laura Corin]

OK - forgive my ignorance but I looked up the SAT and AP subject tests. The lists I see show stuff like World History or English Literature. I don't see something specifically comparable to the year of Ancient Literature and History that we are doing this year. Now ds will be doing the Medusa Mythology Exam this month. But it's theme (Malicious Monsters and Monstrous Mortals) isn't a complete match to what we've studied either. I have no idea how ds will do. This is a core area of study and I don't want to make it only pass/fail. Thoughts?

 

Could you make part of each course chime with the public exams? Then you will still have the official grades. Calvin has read a lot more literature than his exams require, for example, but the exam results show that he is working at a measurable standard level.

 

This is a downside to going the exams route - the danger of ending up trammeled by the college board requirements. Many British schools end up doing exactly that - teaching to the test. You'll have to weigh up that danger against having documentary proof of the rigour of your studies.

 

Laura

[katilac]

A couple of comments. While "you have the right to say "Honors"", I wonder how meaningful it is to use this word on a homeschool transcript. In a brick and mortar school, the term applies to a class that is more challenging than the basic version of that class. My homeschool did not offer "Honors" courses but I expected "Honors" work.

 

This is not completely accurate - the term "honors" does have some generally accepted meaning on its own, it is not completely open to interpretation or useful only when compared to a different class in the same school. High school credits can be evauluated using time, materials, and assignments.

 

Time-wise, SWB says in her high school lecture that regular courses are 120 hours, honors are 180. Of course, a high school credit specifically refers to 120 classroom hours, but it's a starting point.

 

Materials: many texts are clearly designated for use in either regular, honors, or intervention classes, so that's a very obvious distinction. Even if you don't use a text, the college knows the difference between reading classics as opposed to reading young adult fiction, or between a lab-intensive science and one based on filling in bubbles. If you don't think the title of your materials makes it clear that they are challenging, include a brief clarification.

 

Assignments: again, colleges know the difference between a class that is read-and-answer and a class that requires, say, a semester-long independent project.

 

As far as grades go, SWB states that the most important thing (to the college) is that grades roughly correspond to test scores. If the student has an A in honors chemistry, but rotten science scores, how much weight will they give your grades?

 

So, yes, I most certainly intend to both offer and document honors classes when dd officially begins high school next year. We do not plan to use "report cards" in high school, because for us that would interfere with keeping an emphasis on learning instead of grade-earning, but the records I keep will let me go back and give grades if a school requires them. We will also use subject tests and AP tests for documentation.

[Jane in NC]

This is not completely accurate - the term "honors" does have some generally accepted meaning on its own, it is not completely open to interpretation or useful only when compared to a different class in the same school. High school credits can be evauluated using time, materials, and assignments.

 

Time-wise, SWB says in her high school lecture that regular courses are 120 hours, honors are 180. Of course, a high school credit specifically refers to 120 classroom hours, but it's a starting point.

 

The number of hours determining a high school credit seems to vary from state to state. Here in NC, 180 contact "hours" (where an "hour" equates to 50 minutes, I believe) define a credit, regular or honors. Obviously some courses (like AP Biology) take many, many more hours than 180 but only a single credit is awarded.

 

But that is the public school system here. Obviously homeschoolers have the flexibility to determine their own parameters. I think my only concern is how this might translate to Admissions Counselors at State Universities who are accustomed to the definitions determined by that particular state. Just a word of caution.

[Mama Lynx]

OK - forgive my ignorance but I looked up the SAT and AP subject tests. The lists I see show stuff like World History or English Literature. I don't see something specifically comparable to the year of Ancient Literature and History that we are doing this year. Now ds will be doing the Medusa Mythology Exam this month. But it's theme (Malicious Monsters and Monstrous Mortals) isn't a complete match to what we've studied either. I have no idea how ds will do. This is a core area of study and I don't want to make it only pass/fail. Thoughts?

 

I'm in the same boat, Jean. Ancient Great Books, Medieval Great Books ... ? I've been advised to just put something like "English 9" and "World History - Ancients" on the transcript.

 

For 9th and 10th grades my son took a Great Books class, which covered both history and literature; he also took a Humanities class, which covered history, philosophy, and art appreciation. So how on earth do I put those on a transcript? To add to that, most of the assessments *are* oral. I know that in high school we're supposed to test and grade papers, but no, we're not really doing that. Does that mean that what we're doing is not rigorous? No way. But it does mean that we don't have much of a paper trail.

 

Still, he took the SAT II exam for World History and got a score equivalent to an A - so I feel that the history portion of Great Books and Humanities is validated. He takes the National Latin Exam to validate the Latin grade. And I suppose one SAT II literature exam will somehow validate the Great Books reading and analysis.