DragonflyAcademy Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 We have been homeschooling since the second part of second grade.. We tried Right Start math but it was too different from what he had learned in public school and unlearning everything was too frustrating.. so we switched to Horizons. Horizons overwhelmed him with the problems per page.. so we started Teaching Textbooks in grade 3.. level 3.. Things were going well! We did level 4 in grade 4 and then did level 5 over this past summer so he could start level 6 in grade 5... I felt, strongly, that it was a year behind level wise.. his end of year testing (CAT) covered material that hadn't been covered in that grade level TT... so I thought going a level ahead was the key.. This year.. he has been struggling.. I am not sure if it is a lack of practice that is just not offered in TT to the degree he needs.. or a lack of understanding the concept.. We are really struggling right now.. multiplication is an area.. we have been trying and trying to memorize those tables for years now.. and it is a source of constant frustration..(flash cards, computer games, rote etc)..But it isn't even that he doesn't know what 9x9 is instantly.. he CAN figure it out.. but he will totally mess up a problem that has 2 digits multiplied by 3 digits.. or a decimal etc.. He will just look at it and freeze.. or make silly mistakes with the columns and get the answer wrong.. Now in decimals and ratios he is just turning off.. and saying he "can't" do it.. Very obviously.. I have failed him in math.. and need to step it back and reteach.. Do I look for another program.. or just try supplementation? I have the Key To books and he has done those..not the entire ones.. page here.. page there.. Math Mammoth is an option but again.. a lot of what is taught seems counter intuitive to both of us.. how she presents certain topics are different from how we both learned..Is unlearning and reteaching an issue for this as much as it was for RS? My middle child is in Singapore.. and doing well... should I consider it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaHappy Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I personally wouldn't go with Singapore for a child who is weak on math facts and is struggling. Singapore is strong on conceptual teaching, but there is no real drill to speak of and not enough review, IMO. Have you looked into Rod & Staff? If there's a program that can teach kids math facts, Rod & Staff is it. :) It offers lots of practice and review and the TM's are WONDERFUL! I've heard of many math-strugglers do great with Rod & Staff. Just a thought..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLittleBears Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) It could be that most of the problems is not knowing his multiplication facts. It may be slowing down his progression with higher level math, since it all builds on previously learned material. If he has trouble memorizing, it may be that the info has not been transfered from his left brain hemisphere (which is responsible for short term memory) into his right hemisphere for permanent storage. Usually the best way to do this is to make learning more visual by making it stick with color and humor. Dianne Craft has a lot of good ideas on this. http://www.diannecraft.org You don't have to use her mult. cards in particular. There are lots of other options available. (times tales, etc.) Just something to consider. Edited March 8, 2012 by MyLittleBears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellers Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 My DS11 has working memory issues, and struggles to learn multiplication facts. It takes tons and tons of repetition to get facts into his long term memory. I have him fill out a blank multiplication chart every day. This is helping him to very slowly learn the facts, and helps him get his answers right. He's in 5th grade and just started TT6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 This year.. he has been struggling.. I am not sure if it is a lack of practice that is just not offered in TT to the degree he needs.. or a lack of understanding the concept..... Math Mammoth is an option but again.. a lot of what is taught seems counter intuitive to both of us.. how she presents certain topics are different from how we both learned..Is unlearning and reteaching an issue for this as much as it was for RS? MM and RS both involve conceptual teaching, probably much moreso than math programs that focus more on the procedure, such as TT. That might be the difference you are sensing (I don't know why unlearning would be involved though). Certainly, for some kids, understanding the concept very well, or from a different angle, can make a big difference in remembering how to do the procedure. With multi-digit multiplication, I'd focus on place value. It sounds like you might already own MM. If not, consider buying one of the inexpensive Blue topic books on multiplication (maybe this one for $4.25, or you can find the same lessons in the grade 4 Light Blue version). Lessons about multiplying in parts and multiplying the "easy way" might be especially helpful, though from the TOC it looks like you could use the whole thing. It's worth taking the time to back up and cement this understanding, and MM topic books are so inexpensive that you don't have much to lose by trying. Also, to help avoid mistakes with columns, try using lined paper turned sideways (or use graph paper). I have him fill out a blank multiplication chart every day. This is helping him to very slowly learn the facts, and helps him get his answers right. I think this is a great idea. It can also help right-brained, VSL-type kids see the patterns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momling Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Very obviously.. I have failed him in math.. and need to step it back and reteach.. It sounds like you do need to go back and work with him on some areas -- but you haven't failed him at math! This whole thing is a process... a journey. You've recognized he's having difficulty and are trying to figure out a way to help -- good job! 5th grade is a great time to solidify arithmetic skills -- before he gets into algebra. He's not "behind" and you're not a "failure". :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonflyAcademy Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 Thanks momling.. I will try not to feel like I failed him...but it hard to see him struggle and know that I didn' t hit on what he needed.. Re Unlearning.. in Right Start, when we used it.. HOW to do problems was very different than he'd been taught in school.. and the process of getting the answer was very different.. and it frustrated him to the point where he shut down.. With MM, there are some concepts that are taught in ways that are very different from what he has learned.. some of her multiplication strategies come to mind. I'll have to dig out the CD and print off those pages.. because at the start of the year I was using MM to supplement TT and he just about went batty when he'd get to those pages..I will revisit it again though..and see if I can decipher exactly what he stumbled over in how she does the problems... I ordered R&S math..and we will work through it at a good pace to make sure he gets his gaps filled in before end of year testing..*gulp* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 We began using Learn Math Fast System this Jan. We had a house fire 2 years ago and it's like the math stuffing fell out of my ds12 head. He is FINALLY memorizing multiplication tables, GETS decimals, etc. You can read my review here (and sign up for the whole K-8th grade program give-away March 16!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Re Unlearning.. in Right Start, when we used it.. HOW to do problems was very different than he'd been taught in school.. and the process of getting the answer was very different.. and it frustrated him to the point where he shut down.. With MM, there are some concepts that are taught in ways that are very different from what he has learned.. some of her multiplication strategies come to mind. I'll have to dig out the CD and print off those pages.. because at the start of the year I was using MM to supplement TT and he just about went batty when he'd get to those pages..I will revisit it again though..and see if I can decipher exactly what he stumbled over in how she does the problems... (eta, this is a PSA ;)) It is very important to understand this about MM: most of the time, it is NOT simply that she is showing additional, different strategies for doing things (though I can think of a few spots where that is the case). Many times, and definitely in the area of multiplication, those strategies are part of the teaching of the concept, and are important to understand. A series of lessons on a topic in MM always teaches the concept thoroughly first and then follows with teaching the procedural algorithm. The procedural algorithm is almost by definition a shortcut/shorter to use than what the conceptual lessons on the topic teach. Now, once the concept is understood, then one can move on to the procedural algorithm - I'm not sure if what you mean by "driving him batty" is that he was annoyed because he already understood the conceptual lessons, or he was annoyed because he didn't quite get it/was a tad uncomfortable. If your CD is of the Light Blue, the multiplication lessons would be ch 3, in 4A. Edited March 8, 2012 by wapiti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
................... Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 This sounds like the perfect case for Saxon math. Start in 5/4. And you should drill the facts every day including weekends and holidays, but only do about 20 per day otherwise it'll be overwhelming. I put fact drill on my ds' morning routines do that it'll get done every day of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 DS has a processing speed disorder so we are no longer trying to memorize the math facts, but are moving forward with concepts. I let DS look up individual facts as needed otherwise he can never get through an entire long multiplication problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 If you use the multiplication chart every day, let him use it when he does his work. (The rule is, you have to fill it out THAT DAY to use it with your math work THAT DAY.) My eight yr old still uses skip counting with many of her multiplication/division facts. She has made it to the next step of instant recall for some of them, but not enough to please her Mean Old Mom! :tongue_smilie: You still have time! Step back, reteach, solidify! Hope R&S holds the key! :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonflyAcademy Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 If you use the multiplication chart every day, let him use it when he does his work. (The rule is, you have to fill it out THAT DAY to use it with your math work THAT DAY.): good idea!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 With the things you're describing, it's time to get some testing done. What you want is a neuropsych eval. That's what the other responders were hinting at when they said their kids turned out to have processing speed problems, etc. etc. You have about 14 red flags for it in your post. (No I didn't count, but you get my idea.) When you have a child who is in 5th grade and struggling with basic things that you've taught repeatedly, years on end, when you have a child who *shuts down* when instruction pushes him, when you have the level of frustration you're showing, THERE'S SOMETHING GOING ON. Plain enough? A whole bunch of people who responded to you in this thread can see it. A neuropsychologist is the one who does the testing. Get it and get your answers. No, MM isn't what you need. BTDT. I like MM a *lot* btw. I'm just saying it won't solve your problem. And you can't solve the problem till you know what it IS. Sometimes homeschooling puts this undue burden on us, like we ought to be able to figure everything out if we just TRY hard enough. Some things you can't figure out. Some things you really need to get help on. So get the eval and don't even be bashful about it. You deserve the information. You need the information in order to be able to teach him. Yes it will cost money. Maybe you can get insurance to help you or call around and find an affordable option. The main thing is to get the info and get the testing done. It's been a couple years since we did the CAT. What were his scores? There's a computation and a conceptual score, right? Was there a disparity between them, or were they both low? I'm not saying you have to tell us the numbers. I'm just saying there's a reading of the tea leaves you can do there. If his conceptual is good but not his computation score, that's different from if they're both low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonflyAcademy Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 I wish that neuropsych testing would give us answers.. we did $12K worth three years ago.. over 3 months..and it didn't shed any more light on things than we had...It showed us he is scary intelligent (their words) with low frustration tolerance and anxiety.. His CAT scores have been 90% and above every year.. this year I am going to use the full CAT/5 instead of the Survey edition that has been used in the coop every year...I am curious to see if there is a difference.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 What did the testing show on his attention, working memory, and executive function? PS. That's a horrible price you paid. What did they do, have you go through a whole bunch of professionals??? Around here it's $1500. Onelmichele on the boards is in NY and did hers for a FRACTION of that cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonflyAcademy Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 PS. That's a horrible price you paid. What did they do, have you go through a whole bunch of professionals??? Around here it's $1500. Onelmichele on the boards is in NY and did hers for a FRACTION of that cost. We used one person..supposedly a specialist..she was $1000 for each session... it was a waste of time and money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 We used one person..supposedly a specialist..she was $1000 for each session... it was a waste of time and money... Wow, that's horrible. Don't even know what to say. Just horrible. Well you might look through your scores and see if there was anything about working memory or attention or executive function in there. If there was, there are things you can do about it. I guess go with a really cheap one next time. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I wish that neuropsych testing would give us answers.. we did $12K worth three years ago.. over 3 months..and it didn't shed any more light on things than we had...It showed us he is scary intelligent (their words) with low frustration tolerance and anxiety.. His CAT scores have been 90% and above every year.. this year I am going to use the full CAT/5 instead of the Survey edition that has been used in the coop every year...I am curious to see if there is a difference.. Wow, I'm with Elizabeth. That is practically criminal. I also agree with her that you are looking at some processing issues of some kind. Look back through your results and see if there are clues even if she didn't point them out to you. I don't think the problem is curriculum. I would change the way he works. Consider using a white board for math, one problem at a time (less visually distracting, easier to write). Another option is graph paper. You can print it out yourself and size it to his handwriting. That way his numbers will line up and there will be far fewer mistakes, less frustration. My ds (also scary smart) had major problems of this nature. We did have to slow down. We used MUS to review fractions and decimals (it sounds like you would need to start with multiplication if you were going to review). We made sure things were not overwhelming visually and that there was constant review. We did multiplication flash cards every day for 3 years AFTER he already knew them. That was how long it took for them to be memorized forever. Most of all, don't panic. This is something you can work through and you have plenty of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NittanyJen Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 My older is scary smart, and grasps math concepts way beyond his years. However he was convinced he could not do math, and consistently got multi-digit multiplication, decimals, and long division wrong until I had him start working on graph paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclopez Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 My 4th grader has working memory issues from "benign" seizures - dyslexia too. He uses charts all the time - classwork and tests. I've seen these facts begin to get rooted in memory. I do make him do Math reflex which he hates just to practice speed. Get on line and find mnumonics (sp) that will help with remembering steps. Dirty Monkeys Smell Bad saved us for Division. He puts this on his paper everytime. REgarding word problems - I ask him to write down the number sentence. If it's correct, he can use a calculator to find the answer. I have to think of life skills for him and tell myself - he will be able to use a calculator, tip calculator app, etc in life. For him, I want him to move ahead and not let the memorizing of facts keep him from progressing. Even telling time was very hard for him - but I figure there is digital. We use Math U See which has been very good for him - I just have to let go that on Standardized test this year he won't be able to do percents and decimals as the program hasn't covered this yet. But, as someone else said, it's a journey... we'll get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Alright, you all are convincing me to let my dyslexic ds use charts during math while we work on the mnemonics and memorizing. Have you all seen citycreek.com? We are going to use narrative stories to help retain facts too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 We have been homeschooling since the second part of second grade.. We tried Right Start math but it was too different from what he had learned in public school and unlearning everything was too frustrating.. so we switched to Horizons. Horizons overwhelmed him with the problems per page.. so we started Teaching Textbooks in grade 3.. level 3.. Things were going well! We did level 4 in grade 4 and then did level 5 over this past summer so he could start level 6 in grade 5... I felt, strongly, that it was a year behind level wise.. his end of year testing (CAT) covered material that hadn't been covered in that grade level TT... so I thought going a level ahead was the key.. This year.. he has been struggling.. I am not sure if it is a lack of practice that is just not offered in TT to the degree he needs.. or a lack of understanding the concept.. We are really struggling right now.. multiplication is an area.. we have been trying and trying to memorize those tables for years now.. and it is a source of constant frustration..(flash cards, computer games, rote etc)..But it isn't even that he doesn't know what 9x9 is instantly.. he CAN figure it out.. but he will totally mess up a problem that has 2 digits multiplied by 3 digits.. or a decimal etc.. He will just look at it and freeze.. or make silly mistakes with the columns and get the answer wrong.. Now in decimals and ratios he is just turning off.. and saying he "can't" do it.. Very obviously.. I have failed him in math.. and need to step it back and reteach.. Do I look for another program.. or just try supplementation? I have the Key To books and he has done those..not the entire ones.. page here.. page there.. Math Mammoth is an option but again.. a lot of what is taught seems counter intuitive to both of us.. how she presents certain topics are different from how we both learned..Is unlearning and reteaching an issue for this as much as it was for RS? My middle child is in Singapore.. and doing well... should I consider it? . My ds seems a bit like what you describe for yours. Many programs were way too "busy" visually speaking. We use MUS because, among other reasons, the lay-out of the pages worked well for him. (If you decide to use it, you do not have to use its unusual method of multidigit multiplication regrouping --where numbers are carried down and all added up at the end--unless that would help your son. btw, My ds tested out the TT online intro and found them fun, but he didn't seem to learn much from it, mainly, I think, because he did not have the patience to really listen to the explanations.) We also use extra plain white paper and graph paper as needed, to keep things lined up in ways that do not lead to confusion. It is a struggle to be neat and orderly. And dealing with anxiety and frustration tolerance seem like their own areas for work, for many of us. I have been finding going through Life of Fred a useful review that does not seem too boring. I don't know much about the CAT test, and I too think TT seems "behind" its stated grade level, but in general I believe that the standardized tests tend to have problems that many children will not have learned yet. At my son's most recent testing he scored very well in math concepts even though he had not yet covered all the subjects that appeared on the test. To me the bigger issues you bring up seem to be the problems of anxiety, freezing up, and trouble with memorization that you mention. All of these may well improve with just a lot more practice in a program that does not seem overwhelming. Sometimes "overlearning" is needed to get past anxiety. And anxiety itself can cause memory not to function well. One thing I did at one point that seemed helpful in multidigit mulitplication was to let my son make out a bunch of problems on graph paper for me to solve. They, of course, had to be neat enough that I could read them, and he had to have an answer key ready to check my work against. I think it made if more fun. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonflyAcademy Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) Thanks everyone.. Today went much better.. I have him sitting with me at the table.. and we are going through basic review..He KNOWS the concepts.. It seems to me that it is an anxiety issue.. He sees all the problems or he sees a complex problem or a word problem and he just freezes.. So we are going to work on this slowly. he DOES have anxiety issues..but they have been so much better that I had thought things were ok.. However I think the more complicated math got.. it was triggering his fight or flight response.. I think that the visual distraction of all the problems as well as anxiety AND his poor handwriting (he is Dysghrapic..) contribute to it...The suggestions of graph paper etc are great.. and I do think it is OK for him to use charts.. but I get a bit anxious when I think about the testing..where he cannot use them...maybe I need to see if he can get permission or something to use them... Edited March 9, 2012 by ChantyD3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonflyAcademy Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 Wow, that's horrible. Don't even know what to say. Just horrible. Well you might look through your scores and see if there was anything about working memory or attention or executive function in there. If there was, there are things you can do about it. I guess go with a really cheap one next time. :( Hind sight is 20/20 right.. we know better now.. but then.. we were struggling for answers, listening to the school district and hoping that someone could help us.. hahaha.. such naiveté.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Math U See yet. DS is diagnosed dyscalculia/dyslexia/dysgraphia and gifted. He is highly visual/kinesthetic learner. I homeschooled 2nd semester, 5th grade and taught him the times tables by doing the following: 1. We sat down and he looked at domino cards to verify he could subitize to 5. He can... 2. Then we practiced basic math facts, adding and subtracting to 20, using a Slavonic abacus. He knows those facts backwards and forwards. 3. Used a Singapore Mental Math grade 2 book and practiced mental math. 4. We reviewed number bonds ie, 32= 30 + 2; 104=100 + 4; 9=10-1 5. Heavily reviewed place value. 6. Practiced adding and subtracting big numbers using base 10 cubes and number lines. 7. Practiced skip counting by 2s, 5s, and 10s. 8. Ultimately used Cuisenaire rods and the area model of multiplication to review the commutative and distributive property of multiplication. DS drilled the times tables using a simple computer program nearly everyday for 10 minutes for about 2.5 months. Whenever I remember, I randomly ask him times questions. Which reminds me, he needs to practice some more.... 9. No flash cards and we limited instruction to about 30 minutes at a sitting. I read two books by Ronit Bird and a book titled "How the Brain Learns Mathematics" by Sousa. DS is presently sitting a 6th grade classroom and will start pre-algebra in the Fall, at home with me. ETA: Area model of multiplication is a great way to break down multi-digit multiplication. Lattice multiplication is helpful for some and eliminates the problems associated with carrying. We also use cm sized metric graph paper for just about everything. Edited March 9, 2012 by Heathermomster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I think that the visual distraction of all the problems as well as anxiety AND his poor handwriting (he is Dysghrapic..) contribute to it...The suggestions of graph paper etc are great.. and I do think it is OK for him to use charts.. but I get a bit anxious when I think about the testing..where he cannot use them...maybe I need to see if he can get permission or something to use them... If he learns how to write his own charts and fill them out, he should be able to use anything he has made himself on a test, he can just write out a chart on his scratch paper for a test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Math U See yet. . Several of us did, but perhaps made the mistake of writing "MUS". Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 For the anxiety, I have to only give DS a few problems at a time. Our doctor suggested covering the rest of the page with a sheet of paper, but just knowing the extra problems are their waiting for DS is an issue. I tend to seek quality over quantity now. We work the problems to make sure he understands the concepts but don't try to do an entire page. The dsygraphia issue would make doing more than a few very trying for your DS I would think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Several of us did, but perhaps made the mistake of writing "MUS". Thanks! I see it now. Thank-you..:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonflyAcademy Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 Several of us did, but perhaps made the mistake of writing "MUS". Thanks! We did try MUS.. and I liked it.. DS hated it.. he thought the man was "the most boring thing on earth" and just hated listening to the DVDs... lol.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 If he learns how to write his own charts and fill them out, he should be able to use anything he has made himself on a test, he can just write out a chart on his scratch paper for a test. :iagree:I was just thinking this as well. I'm going to teach ds to draw charts everyday prior to math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonflyAcademy Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 :iagree:I was just thinking this as well. I'm going to teach ds to draw charts everyday prior to math. that is a very good point, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I disagree with having a dysgraphic child fill out the multi chart, especially when used just prior to math study. The very act of writing is difficult. Mental processes are devoted to the actual formation of letters, not conveying head knowledge. Good luck whatever you decide... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonflyAcademy Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 I disagree with having a dysgraphic child fill out the multi chart, especially when used just prior to math study. The very act of writing is difficult. Mental processes are devoted to the actual formation of letters, not conveying head knowledge. Good luck whatever you decide... I completely agree that making a dysgraphic child write to fill out a chart is counter intuitive.. and for most.. would probably send them over the edge.. for DS.. a chart is ok.. it is a defined area.. he doesn't mind.. writing a paragraph.. another matter entirely.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) I disagree with having a dysgraphic child fill out the multi chart, especially when used just prior to math study. The very act of writing is difficult. Mental processes are devoted to the actual formation of letters, not conveying head knowledge. Good luck whatever you decide... I think the key for us will be teaching ds to write out charts that give the biggest bang for your buck. We are not at multiplication yet, but having ds draw a quick numberline to 12, and 5s and 10s columns will get him around some skip counting, and addition/subtraction math fact memorization issues that plague him due to the dyslexia. And in our case at least, I think the processes eaten up by trying to recall facts are greater than those used when writing, but we shall see. I may be singing a different tune after we actually try it. Edited March 9, 2012 by FairProspects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueTaelon Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Could your son simply be a right brain/visual-spatial learner? Drill and kill is not what these kids need, a few problems showing they understand it and MOVE ON. Its common that they don't memorize multiplication until after Algebra 1 where they use it a lot. Give the kid a chart and MOVE ON. If they know how it works but just can't remember 9x9=81 your doing more damage then anything to keep up drill and kill. I had a really hard time understanding this concept but after having it pounded into my head so to speak by other hs'ing families with VSL kids I realized they were right on the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucyfan70 Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 It must be a 5th grade thing because that's when my daughter started having issues. I just repeated her Saxon 6/5 math book all over again. Yes, from the beginning. She is now in the 7/6 book and she is in 6th grade. We didn't start it until around Christmas. That was the best decision I ever made. She is doing so much better. No more crying and being frustrated over math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Ok, I'll throw out something, just to make sure you know about it. One of the things that is pretty common in kids with these problems is developmental vision problems. For instance, if you have a child whose ability to work improves because of graph paper, I'd get his eyes checked. There are lots of reasons to get the eyes checked, and to me it's a win-win. What I suggest is just a regular old eye exam, but getting it done by a good *developmental optometrist* instead of a regular optometrist. Won't cost particularly more (ours run $60-100), but the developmental optometrist will screen for some extra things that affect school work. Then if they find more, then you can do the full developmental exam where they'll test all his focusing, accommodation, convergence, tracking, visual processing, blah blah. Sometimes what happens when you hand them a big sheet of work to do is that their visual processing gets overwhelmed. Then it's a vision problem. It might manifest as anxiety, fright/flight (my dd did that too), but it could be caused by another reason. So I just suggest it as one of those things to check. If there's nothing there, that basic exam, when done by a good developmental optometrist, can rule it out. My dd turned out to have surprisingly poor visual processing skills for her age, and it explained why certain things like math facts, etc. weren't going well. You had the brain differences (how they learn, mini-columns, needing context, that sort of thing), but you also had this vision problem in the way. We improved that and a LOT came together. It's just a good thing to check. And it won't cost you $12K to do it. COVD is where you find a developmental optometrist. Get a good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 It must be a 5th grade thing because that's when my daughter started having issues. I just repeated her Saxon 6/5 math book all over again. Yes, from the beginning. She is now in the 7/6 book and she is in 6th grade. We didn't start it until around Christmas. That was the best decision I ever made. She is doing so much better. No more crying and being frustrated over math. Yeah actually it is. It's an age where the work piles up and the compensating measures they've been using to that point are no longer adequate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonflyAcademy Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 Ok, I'll throw out something, just to make sure you know about it. we had a OT therapist come and do an eval.. she suggested an eval by an developmental optometrist... I was waiting for her report.. she never sent it!! it has been 6 months since she came..and nothing! We have a regular eye Dr...but I guess we should look into someone else.. My son is like an onion.. so many layers.. and so many opinions... to us.. he is just.. our son.....but to others.. such a puzzle.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 We did try MUS.. and I liked it.. DS hated it.. he thought the man was "the most boring thing on earth" and just hated listening to the DVDs... lol.. They don't have to listen to the DVD's that is part of the parent/teacher material...optional for the children to listen. That said, maybe TT was good for him, but you just tried to go a lot faster than he is able to go. In that case, maybe you can just back up and go back over the TT that has not been understood. Or is it that he liked, and seemed to sail along in TT, but in retrospect you now realize he didn't really learn the material? At some point, children do have to actually buckle down and work on learning things themselves. We can try to help, to teach, to find good curriculum, to find tutors, to evaluate learning disability...to try to get help for the children for their special needs. But we cannot learn for the child. It sounds a little like ds may not be actively working on learning for himself, as well as anxiety issues and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 we had a OT therapist come and do an eval.. she suggested an eval by an developmental optometrist... I was waiting for her report.. she never sent it!! it has been 6 months since she came..and nothing! We have a regular eye Dr...but I guess we should look into someone else.. My son is like an onion.. so many layers.. and so many opinions... to us.. he is just.. our son.....but to others.. such a puzzle.. Well there you go. COVD. Find a good developmental optometrist and see what they find. Sounds like you should go ahead and do the full developmental eval. BTW, have you seen the Executive Function Training workbooks from Linguisystems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 we had a OT therapist come and do an eval.. she suggested an eval by an developmental optometrist... I was waiting for her report.. she never sent it!! it has been 6 months since she came..and nothing! Sometimes you have to call & remind, then call again & ask, then call again & pester. (We had a COVD doc do an eval on our second daughter this year. We had to call once per week for three weeks (after waiting how long they said it would take to get the report together) in order to finally get the report sent to us. DH & I took turns calling.) Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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