Lang Syne Boardie Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 according to research concerning 16- to 65yo's. I'm linking the Telegraph article here, desperately hoping that someone knowledgeable among us will be able to read between the lines and prove that it's all hyperbole, agenda, ****ed lies, and statistics (H/T Disraeli). They only studied 7000 people. Is that really enough? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/maths-reform/9115665/Numeracy-Campaign-17m-adults-struggle-with-primary-school-maths.html What happens to a nation when half of it handles math like a fifth-grader? And what kind of fifth-grader are we talking about here, a TERC Investigations C-student fifth-grader, a Singapore curriculum A+ fifth-grader, or what? The person quoted in the article said the adults are unable to make change. By the end of my fifth grade math curriculum, my students are competent at making change. What is the curriculum like over there? The commentary at the Telegraph isn't Nice. "Britain is a Nation of Mathematical Morons." The comments are interesting, though. :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 UK: 49% have the math skills of an 11yo A really smart 11yo, or a dimwitted one? Because I think that matters. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 I know! We need to become better acquainted with this 11yo before we can really sit in judgment on a whole nation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I know! We need to become better acquainted with this 11yo before we can really sit in judgment on a whole nation! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: It's pretty amazing how this one kid is representing an entire nation of people. I wonder if he's a good speller, too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carpe Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I know! We need to become better acquainted with this 11yo before we can really sit in judgment on a whole nation! :iagree: This 11 year old could be the (imaginary) child of Marilyn von Savant and Stephen Hawking, or could be the helmet boy on the short bus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 LOL. Which 11yo? What's his name? I'm sensing some skepticism on your part, Catwoman! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Interesting articles and comments. It sounds like they are as plagued by the "new math" as the US is. I don't know if I feel better knowing we aren't "alone" or worse. Personally, the numbers don't surprise me if they are as into the new math as the US is. The comments were very interesting to read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lailasmum Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) I think it is mostly true however older people do seems to have better maths skills than say the under 50s. I know a lot of people who can't do simple maths. My mum works in a primary school where parents send in their kids dinner money once a week, you should see some of the things she gets sent, and that is for a fixed meal price that hasn't changed in years. Many parents are obviously unable to do simple addition and multiplication. I know when I was at school it was deeply uncool to be academically successful and a lot of people succumbed to the peer pressure and didn't do the work, that might have something to do with it too. It also reminds me of when my friend was redoing her mortgage and the bank had real trouble working out the paperwork for the mortgage. She had to make them redo the paperwork three times because they kept adding things up incorrectly and working out various things wrong ending up with miscalculations in the payment. The staff doing her paperwork seemed to really struggle with what they were actually needing to work out which seems odd for people doing it as their job. Edited March 3, 2012 by lailasmum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oak Knoll Mom Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 It also reminds me of when my friend was redoing her mortgage and the bank had real trouble working out the paperwork for the mortgage. She had to make them redo the paperwork three times because they kept adding things up incorrectly and working out various things wrong ending up with miscalculations in the payment. The staff doing her paperwork seemed to really struggle with what they were actually needing to work out which seems odd for people doing it as their job. Yikes, that sounds scary! It reminds me of Idiocracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 All too often I have witnessed innumeracy worn as a "badge of honour", in real life and here in the virtual world. Consider the number of parents who claim that their young children are "not mathy". They wear this label despite not having seen any mathematics--only basic arithmetic! From the editorial: Personally, I blame it on a long-standing (and artificial) division between those who do the numbers and those who do the words – with the former being privileged and promoted over the latter in the professions and the corridors of power. I completely agree with the person who quoted the above and commented Which would explain the astoundingly poor grasp of science and economics displayed by journalists, politicians and bureaucrats. I have great admiration for all of the self educators here on the boards who, after realizing their deficiencies, set to work on correcting them. Let me give you a rousing round of applause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 All too often I have witnessed innumeracy worn as a "badge of honour", in real life and here in the virtual world. Even colloquially, even when people are not really that bad at math, this kind of attitude has crept into general culture. A few days ago I was in one agency dealing with some money. After having been perplexed over some rather simple mental math, the young lady takes out a calculator, giggling how she is an idiot at math, and then points at her colleague, who had meanwhile started teasing her about not being able to calculate it mentally, saying: "He is an idiot for math too [more giggling], that is why we went to [name of faculty they graduated from]", and more giggling both of them together. They were both very young (and very cultured, which I gathered from a few casual conversations we had!), so obviously math is not cool even in this generation... not even if a part of your job includes some simple math. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lolly Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 My thoughts. The math of a 5th grader is probably what the average person would be using in daily life. What we don't use we lose. This study doesn't mean that at one point the adults tested were not able to do higher level math. It means that they currently aren't able to do it. It is my experience that if you are not using math skills your brain just forgets them. In the real world, we have a calculator on our phones and computer programs to do the math for us at most jobs. Unless a person takes the incentive to do the math themselves, they will eventually lose the skill. It is faster and more accurate to use the computer program, so people do. The author of the article drew the conclusion that this means that people are not able to do the math associated with their jobs. I find that to be a faulty conclusion because they would be using the math necessary for their jobs/therefore they would not forget how to do it. If one moved onto another job, the math could be relearned very quickly. (At least, that has been my experience as my children have gotten older. Math is learned much faster the second/third/fourth time around! I surely did not remember high school math processes that, quite frankly, just are not needed in regular old life.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 My thoughts. The math of a 5th grader is probably what the average person would be using in daily life. What we don't use we lose. This study doesn't mean that at one point the adults tested were not able to do higher level math. It means that they currently aren't able to do it. It is my experience that if you are not using math skills your brain just forgets them. In the real world, we have a calculator on our phones and computer programs to do the math for us at most jobs. Unless a person takes the incentive to do the math themselves, they will eventually lose the skill. It is faster and more accurate to use the computer program, so people do. The author of the article drew the conclusion that this means that people are not able to do the math associated with their jobs. I find that to be a faulty conclusion because they would be using the math necessary for their jobs/therefore they would not forget how to do it. If one moved onto another job, the math could be relearned very quickly. (At least, that has been my experience as my children have gotten older. Math is learned much faster the second/third/fourth time around! I surely did not remember high school math processes that, quite frankly, just are not needed in regular old life.) I do agree with this post, but I also think the level of active math knowledge that should remain with a person as their general education (i.e. if they are not professionally into something which requires higher math) is closer to an 8th grade math than to a 5th grade math. In everyday life you do not only deal with simple mental calculations, but also with basic financial math (by estimating which banking opportunities are better for you in terms of loans, interests, savings, currency exchange, etc.), then there are things like Pythagoraean theorem which is just plain general education which you will have to explain to your child one day, or to be able to help your child with basic school math up to that point... basically, I believe that what should remain with a person in terms of general education is a strong 8th grade education in major skill areas like math (or foreign language which they stopped using, but can still pull that A2-ish level of 8th grade for common day to day situations and general reading skills, etc.). So, in *that* aspect, I would be a bit dissatisfied. Of course that people are going to forget the derivations, but the level of general math that remains with you should still be higher than elementary school arithemtic, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) This doesn't surprise me at all. It's essentially the same in the US. An adult at the 50th percentile knows some basic prealgebra and nothing more. Edited March 3, 2012 by EKS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReneTL Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Yikes, that sounds scary! It reminds me of Idiocracy. :iagree: I LOVE that movie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 I would like to know more about what life is like when you can't make change, manage your checkbook, or prepare your taxes. I've seen documentaries on living with various disabilities but I've never seen one on living without basic math skills. Does anyone know of resources to learn more about this? I saw what I'm talking about concerning literacy on youtube; a teacher was going to do a reality show with illiterate adults with the goals of exposing the problem and helping those particular adults learn to read. But I was never able to find a place online to view the finished show if it ever happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 I can't find the clip on youtube! It was in the UK. The teacher doing it was their version of John Taylor Gatto. He'd won lots of awards, and then turned to confront the real problems in schools. He was focusing on a certain demographic that has struggled for decades, hampered by attitudes and dialects both... argh. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoneyFernDotOrg Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I would like to know more about what life is like when you can't make change, manage your checkbook, or prepare your taxes. My 11-year old can do all of these things. I, myself, am more of a humanities girl but have grown to appreciate the puzzle qualities of higher math as I re-learn it to assist my students. Let's put this in perspective, though. Just as most adults will never use their uncanny ability to parse symbolism in Joyce, most adults will also not have to solve proofs (prove proofs? Math terms?). The headline is alarmist, but, in reality, people who can capably add, subtract, multiply and divide whole numbers, decimals, fractions and percents can function just fine their entire lives, in just the same way as people who can read a newspaper or a weekly news magazine will be fine. Both of these skillsets can be acquired by the end of age 11. Aiming low, but I think the headline is more to sell papers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 My 11-year old can do all of these things. I, myself, am more of a humanities girl but have grown to appreciate the puzzle qualities of higher math as I re-learn it to assist my students. Let's put this in perspective, though. Just as most adults will never use their uncanny ability to parse symbolism in Joyce, most adults will also not have to solve proofs (prove proofs? Math terms?). The headline is alarmist, but, in reality, people who can capably add, subtract, multiply and divide whole numbers, decimals, fractions and percents can function just fine their entire lives, in just the same way as people who can read a newspaper or a weekly news magazine will be fine. Both of these skillsets can be acquired by the end of age 11. Aiming low, but I think the headline is more to sell papers. Except the article specifically mentioned not being able to make change or balance a checkbook. My 11yo's could do those things, too, but the research supposedly proved very basic skills as being lacking in half the adult population. The point was arithmetic, not beyond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassy Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Here's a link from a BBC article on the same issue (along with a math quiz :tongue_smilie:) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17224600. I think the conclusion is that a lot of adults don't even have the math skills expected of an 11 year old. I can actually believe this. One of the reasons we started homeschooling was because of a primary teacher, supposedly with a math degree, who regularly sent home math homework with very basic mistakes in it. The same teacher also sent home an English assignment which made it very clear that she didn't know the difference between an adjective and an adverb. Scary. Cassy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoneyFernDotOrg Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Except the article specifically mentioned not being able to make change or balance a checkbook. My 11yo's could do those things, too, but the research supposedly proved very basic skills as being lacking in half the adult population. The point was arithmetic, not beyond. Yarg. To my mind, this is the dumbed-down approach to schooling these days, as well as proof positive of its utter abstraction. Why not teach addition and subtraction with money and a checkbook? Banks will come to the classroom with check registers (and other goodies) and lead the class for you. This is the reason we have been giving DD an allowance since she was five (just four quarters a week to start). #1: so when she asked for stuff (like the junk by every cash register in creation) we could say, "Did you bring your money?" and #2: so she could learn what it meant to save and count in a real way. No reason why classes can't do this, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychmom Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I think the conclusion is that a lot of adults don't even have the math skills expected of an 11 year old. Cassy I hate to say it, but I think this might be true. I've done quite a bit of testing of adults over the years (all with at least a high school education) and I'm always a little shocked by how many of them have no idea how to add or subtract fractions or decimals, calculate a percentage, etc. They sometimes confess that they have forgotten how to do it and rely on calculators. I am by no means a math whiz, but I feel like those basics were drummed into me. I can't remember much about algebra and beyond, but I can at least work with fractions and decimals! I think a lot of adults memorized the methods as kids, but didn't really learn the concepts. Another reason to homeschool... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Hm, well I assume (not sure though) that by 11 most are taught the basics and anything beyond that gets into things like Algebra and more abstract math. I think that sounds about right in terms of the math skills possessed by many people. My math skills are as good as my 10 year olds right now because we pretty much got there together. I handle all the family's finances, was able to buy the correct amount of flooring and install it measuring properly for odd shaped floors, and know if I'm getting ripped off or not. I believe my 10 year old could do that. So either he is special, or it's not as bad as it sounds. I did take higher math than my son is currently working on, but I can't say that I remember it (nor ever use it). I'm having fun learning it, but again, cannot imagine ever using it. Until Calvin needed teaching beyond that level, I think I was working at about the level of the 11yo curriculum: all my basic arithmetic was fine and I could understand the graphs in the newspaper. Dealing with bills and mortgages was no problem and I could calculate the areas of squares, but not triangles or circles. Now, the fact that many people are not even at that level is a problem, as is the 'badge of honour' attitude to being bad at maths, but I think most adults manage just fine with the knowledge that an 11yo should have. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 (edited) Here's a link from a BBC article on the same issue (along with a math quiz :tongue_smilie:) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17224600. I think the conclusion is that a lot of adults don't even have the math skills expected of an 11 year old. There's also a little quiz available: http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9701000/9701303.stm I can actually believe this. One of the reasons we started homeschooling was because of a primary teacher, supposedly with a math degree, who regularly sent home math homework with very basic mistakes in it. The same teacher also sent home an English assignment which made it very clear that she didn't know the difference between an adjective and an adverb. Scary. Would be teachers are required to have maths and English GCSEs at grade C or above. That's not setting the bar very high. Channel 4 made a 2-part documentary about maths teaching in primary schools. http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/episode-guide/series-53/episode-1 Here's a shortened version of the test they gave to the teachers: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/articles/maths-quiz I'd need to watch it again to check, but I think they tested about 150 teachers, of whom only one scored full marks. If I recall correctly, the average score was 45%. On the other hand, our standards for maths are high in some respects. Calculus is part of the regular maths curriculum for 11th and 12th grades here. But, because maths is optional after 10th grade, there's a sharper division between the maths people and the non-maths people. Those who take maths for A-level get a pretty decent grounding in the subject. Edited March 4, 2012 by Xander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Personally, the numbers don't surprise me if they are as into the new math as the US is. :iagree: When my oldest dd was in first grade (ps) and I was first exposed to TERC math, I was horrified and began talking to teachers and administrators. The assistant superintendent told me that he believed the reason we had such a problem with math education in the US is that the average elementary school is only competent through 5th grade math. At the time I dismissed it as ridiculous hyperbole, but I gradually came to realize he was right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 :iagree: This 11 year old could be the (imaginary) child of Marilyn von Savant and Stephen Hawking, or could be the helmet boy on the short bus. That just made me :lol:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Personally, the numbers don't surprise me if they are as into the new math as the US is. It's not reform math that is the issue. It's understanding what it means to be average and below average. In the US, the *average* adult, the adult at the 50th percentile, can manage math through the prealgebra level, meaning that they've mastered it (at least at a procedural level) and internalized it enough to answer questions on a test years after taking it in school. What this means is that half of adults are at this level or lower, and I'd wager that it's been like this *for years*, not just since reform math came around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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