Spin off question from children in church thread...

[neesek]

I view children's ministries in the church the same way I see co-ops and other classes for homeschoolers - as a supplement. My dh is the pastor of our church and I send all three of my children to their respective classes. I know the material and the teachers and I am comfortable having them in there. In no way am I giving them the responsibility for my children's spiritual education; we have family worship time at home, my dh does daily devotions and catechism questions with them, and we integrate Bible into our hs day. They are very adequately trained spiritually. So, like I said, their church classes allow them interaction with other children, and offer supplemental Bible training.

 

Our church actually has both people who keep their kids with them, but most put them in the children's classes. It is a personal choice with no judgment either way. I will say this though. When my dh is preaching, there have been several times in his sermon when he has paused and very carefully checked the crowd for children before addressing what may be more "mature" topics. If there are younger children present, he may have to be more vague or coded than he would have if there were no children present. Again, we would never "forbid" children from coming in to the service, but sometimes it does make a difference in what is said.

[Kelli in TN]

 

 

And for those of you who would never dream of having an opinion about how others raise their kids....are ya for real? :confused: You are much more righteous than me if that is true. I have opinions all of the time. I don't always express them....but I certainly have opinions. I think it might be human nature.

 

Oh, I have my moments! I just never truly considered it on this issue. I always saw it as a personal preference issue and not a conviction. I never thought twice about parents carrying their kids to church, so I was surprised by how strongly it was expressed that this was right to do. And so I wondered if that is right, does that make me wrong?

 

I was curious.

 

But now I am almost late for my kids' swim lessons! Have a fabulous day, y'all!!

[Sahamamama]

We do take safety very seriously and I would be appalled if toddlers were roaming!! I understand why that bothered you.

 

Wow, it sounds as though you would have no safety-related reasons to NOT send your children to nursery, children's church, etc. Our church really is naive and in the Stone Age of child protection, and it's deeply disturbing. My husband and I are holding our breath, just waiting for something "bad" to happen to a child or teen, because there are no checks and balances. Don't people realize that children are vulnerable and need to be protected? I suppose my training and experience as a social worker -- all the Abuse Prevention Workshops, all the abused children who were REAL -- have clouded my judgment about a little community church.

 

Maybe nothing will happen, but if we keep our girls with us for a time, at least we know where they are! Not roaming around the church alone...

[Jugglin'5]

(Disclaimer: I'm Catholic, and this may not be relevant to all who read it.)

 

Our church has a LifeTeen mass, which is worship geared toward pre-teens and teens. There's a band and it's more charismatic. I object to it on a few levels. First, our liturgical church has so many built-in levels of symbolism that each part is a "teaching" moment, and parents can teach their kids about how to worship best if their children are right beside them (in our church). The parents can bring certain aspects of the worship to their kids attention if they are right beside them, and the worship is so simple on the surface (which is why teens sometimes get bored) but so rich once you understand it.

 

In our LifeTeen masses the kids sit together. They talk all during mass. They are engaged during the singing, but border on irreverent during the rest because their silliness/posing/flirting/texting/apathy/distraction is exacerbated when they get together with less adult supervision. I don't believe that mass should be a social hour, and I don't believe it should be entertainment or a performance. I think that in our church the separate worship for adults and teens encourages a mindset of expecting to be entertained during worship, and I think that's very dangerous. I also think that the great traditions of our liturgical service, a common cultural literacy, is diluted when there is a steady diet of bubblegum worship. When these kids make the transition to "adult" church, it will be difficult and boring, and not comfortable and familiar, when they begin their adult lives. The early 20s are difficult -- or at least they were difficult for my husband and me -- new family, heavy debt, new responsibilities. If teens are treated as adults, the transition from childhood (where kids are sheltered and indulged) to adulthood will be easier and less of a shock, and religion will be a constant in a world that is constantly changing. If they are Christians they should be working toward the same goals that adults are -- to evangelize, to deepen their personal faith, to build up the family, to fight off temptations. If they are not Christians, I think these kids' programs will just seem like entertainment and will encourage only a superficial faith. If kids are struggling with their faith, the family can/should help far more than separate services that remove the kid from his family.

:iagree: I'm not Catholic, but this is my thinking as well. Both Dh's and my experience in youth group was not a preparation for maturity but an artificial extension of immaturity. Maybe many of you have better youth "stuff" going on, but so many of the churches around town have signs advertising their "WildXtremeYouthRampage" group that we have not been the least interested in going to a church where our kids would feel pressured to be a part of that.

[Sarah CB]

I really like the way that my church has things set up. I like having the kids in the service with us for worship and prayer. We recently had a family focus for the last 6 services where there was almost a mini-sermon while the kids were still in the service and it was about families. The kids are dismissed just before the sermon and they go to their Sunday school classes. I like the fact that they are being engaged in an age appropriate way. I think they probably get more out of the teacing in their classes than they would in the main service. My 8 year old, in particular, always comes out of Sunday school talking about the Bible and what he learned. Next Sunday our Pastor is talking about divorce, remarriage, and adultery - not exactly what I need my 6 and 8 year olds learning about. My 12 year old dd would be old enough (imo) to benefit from the main service, but she's really connecting in a positive way to the leader of her class and to the other girls. It's been wonderful to have the opportunity for her to make friends with other girls who share the same faith and values. We're new to the area and I'm more than happy that she's growing in her faith with a solid group who have become an encouragement and inspiration to her. So sure, for her my focus is social but she's still learning and growing in the Lord and I'm purposeful with her training at home so I think we're good.

[lv2sing]

I think that I am not looking at others at all. I am looking to God and my dh to make great decisions for us. If I cared about what people at church thought, I would be lost for sure. I know that however my kids are theologically educated, dh and I are responsible. No different than the hs decision, but I think more serious. My very humble thoughts. You all are wonderfully thought provoking. Have a great day!

[Kim in Appalachia]

with me. I've never thought badly of parents who send their kids to the nursery or if they keep their kids with them.

 

I do get annoyed if parents want to use the nursery but don't help. I would get frustrated if there were parents sending "big" kids (over 5) to the nursery. It's for infants and toddlers. (we have a small nursery, and we don't have children's church for bigger kids, they are expected to stay in the service.) The only reason it frustrates me is because I don't want to miss church to babysit big kids. I understand that some parents would prefer not to try and keep babies or toddlers quiet for over an hour, but kids that can sit through school should be able to sit through church. Just my opinion. :001_smile:

[Jill- OK]

What do you *really* think of families who willingly, nay, happily, send their children to classes/worship time for kids...

 

This part, I have absolutely no problem with. (The happily sending their children). This is what the majority of folks do, and it's more the societal norm, so...I've got to accept that I'm the 'weirdo', lol. (At least, in the majority of churches we've attended). I honestly just make the choice to *mostly* keep our kids with us, and I'm thinking about myself and my family when I do so. It makes me not one whit of difference that other folks don't want to do that. It is frustrating that so much of church culture is guided towards that (children in CC), and I feel like there's a pressure to be like everyone else (again, just in the majority of the places we've been, not so much in our current church, though).

 

But the part where you say, "...and want to worship with only adults and teens in the sanctuary" is where you lose me. In my mind, that's imposing a cultural expectation on a spiritual practice (congregating as Christians), and doing it to the exclusion of certain members.

 

I've never really thought of it in terms of folks not wanting kids in general in the sanctuary, just them not wanting their particular children in the sanctuary. There's a difference, KWIM? If I knew that there was a sentiment like that in our church...I'm inclined to think I'd feel unwelcome, and compelled to go elsewhere. :-(

 

I've never really wanted to attend a church of people exactly like me, although we did seek out a church that did not have CC expressly to avoid fighting a losing battle against folks encouraging us to send our kids. It was a disaster; not everyone believes in keeping children in the service for the same reasons, and the principle behind it is as important to us as the practice. Maybe more so, since we send our kids to CC occasionally.

 

In short...I don't mind if folks send their kids, as long as they don't mind me not sending mine, and don't want to make the church more one way or the other. An ideal, to me, is a church that has that sort of thing available, for those who want it, but doesn't feel obligated to make a huge operation out of it, that then needs to be continually fed and kept up (hence, the pressure to participate).

 

Anyway, I'm not sure if that's the kind of feedback you were looking for, but those are my thoughts.

[Tess in the Burbs]

I grew up only going to SS. my mom would not let us go to service until we were capable of sitting there quietly the entire time. we wanted to go! but if we tried and we weren't behaving then we didn't go back for months. I think churches today cater more to keeping kids with you. We have been church hunting over the last year and all have little bags with crayons/papers to color that are related to the sermon. Our current church has a few rows of seats but the rest of the area is tables! so kids can sit and color and be in the service with the family.

 

I would love for my kids to sit with us but they are squirmy kids and I think they learn a lot from their SS class. if it were all play then they would come with us. but since they come home telling me the lesson I am ok with them doing SS and not hating church. If with us it would be a constant discipline activity for me to keep them still/quiet.

 

I don't think there is any right answer and I hope no one would judge others for their choices.

[sandellie4]

I think it's okay for children to stay, as long as they aren't allowed to take over the service. Parents see their children differently than others, as they are sometimes inclined to let them disrupt others' experiences at church, and I think that is really thoughtless. We keep our children with us, but some of the older people are really frustrated when children are allowed to run up and down the aisles during hymns, etc. It is indeed developmental for young children to need to be active, but it's annoying when parents assume that everyone is up for that in all situations. It's just plain selfish of the parents to think only of their child and themselves -- unless, of course, the church is a very relaxed one and this kind of behavior is okay.

 

Sandy

[Erica in PA]

Sarah, ours is the same way, and I love it too! To me, it's the ideal balance, of having the children participate in worship with their families, and then learning from the Bible on their level. My young children would not benefit from sitting through the entire sermon, eating goldfish and looking at books quietly, the way they benefit from going and hearing a Bible lesson they can internalize. Other children and families may be different, but mine are very well served with this arrangement.

 

Other things that our church does that I really appreciate: The first Sunday of the month all children stay in the service, and our pastor often refers to the children, and uses illustrations that they can relate to. Occasionally he tells the children that if they listen carefully and take notes, they can bring them to his wife after the service for a prize from the prize box. I think that's an excellent way to begin to train children to listen and learn from the sermon. Our church also has some families who participate in jr. church, and some who don't, so it's up to each family and there's no pressure either way. In our church, it's available up to age 8, which I think is a good point to begin staying in the adult service, because that seems to be when my children are capable of fully listening and understanding the sermon, and there's no need for drawing, books, and goldfish at that point. :)

 

Erica

[Rebecca in GA]

Wow. We have video games at our church, but they are turned off as soon as the official church start time rolls around. They are part of the fellowship time before and after church, but never during. The teaching can be pretty in depth at times.

 

Our kids program runs like grownup church. They have praise and worship followed by a "sermon", but it is all at their level.

 

On Wednesday nights the kids are divided up by age and have classes. We don't have Sunday school.

 

6th grade and up are in the sanctuary on Sunday, but have youth groups on Wednesday.

 

If my kids were not learning in church they might be in the service with me, or more likely we would be church shopping because I would have serious reservations about the church's commitment to the next generation.

 

Your church sounds very much like ours, Kelli. I have absolutely no qualms about worshiping apart from my children once a week and studying separately from them once a week. I need to refill my well so I can have something to pour into them.

[Jill- OK]

Frankly, (and there is no malice in my tone here) I am surprised that so many of you who homeschool send your kids to someone else for/during spiritual instruction. Seems a little odd to me that you (the collective you) go to such great personal sacrifice to homeschool because you don't want others to teach your kids academics....but don't mind sending them to someone else for religious training. Shrug.

 

You're making quite a few assumptions. (No malice in my tone, either, honestly.)

 

I homeschool, but I don't necessarily have a problem with others teaching my kids, academically; I want control over the whole of the operation, and if that means outsourcing some things to credible, qualified sources, then I'll do that.

 

And as far as 'spiritual instruction'...an hour on Sunday morning does not equal a child's religious education as a whole, to me. I *like* the idea of kids attending Sunday School, and hearing the same stories and principles that I've been sharing during the rest of their days echoed by someone else. Church is community, to me. And I believe community to be important. I wouldn't be attending church with folks who believed something radically different than what I did, but even if they do differ slightly, I want my kids to encounter different Christian perspectives, too. We can discuss it, agree, and even disagree without totally breaking relationship. I believe that's an invaluable skill, in any walk of life...but I believe it's crucial to a good, healthy, communally lived Christian walk.

 

And as I mentioned...we're talking one or two hours, up against my multitude of hours spent giving them their primary spiritual instruction, at home.

 

That said...I don't like the idea of Children's Church, and for the most part, our kids don't go. I keep them with us for some very specific reasons, that I believe make good, practical sense, and will yield good things spiritually, but I also know that others who have chosen differently have thought about their decision as well, and I'm comfortable with the fact that good people can sometimes make very different choices, and still be doing a decent job of parenting.

 

I guess I said all that to say that there are issues that I believe are black and white, and clearly good and bad, but I don't believe every choice is like that. And I don't personally believe that this issue is one of them.

 

(Please, no one read anything other than an appreciation for a good, adult conversation into my tone or choice of words. :001_smile:)

[Jugglin'5]

I would agree that letting your children run wild during the service is being very inconsiderate of others! We have some families who let their children make more noise than I would let my own children make, but I have never heard of letting them run around during the service! That seems very disrespectful to me. One of the reasons we keep our kids in service is to help them learn self-control.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I think it is up to each parent to make what decisions they feel are best. I might not personally agree, or might do things differently, but I try to respect people's differences as best I can.

 

That being said- there is a mother who drops her two girls off at our church for breakfast. The girls are too big to go into the nursery, but one still does anyway. The other goes to children's church, and my daughter says she acts like she's two. The mother GOES TO ANOTHER CHURCH and then picks up her kids from ours. That bothers me.

[Jugglin'5]

 

I homeschool, but I don't necessarily have a problem with others teaching my kids, academically; I want control over the whole of the operation, and if that means outsourcing some things to credible, qualified sources, then I'll do that.

 

And as far as 'spiritual instruction'...an hour on Sunday morning does not equal a child's religious education as a whole, to me. I *like* the idea of kids attending Sunday School, and hearing the same stories and principles that I've been sharing during the rest of their days echoed by someone else. Church is community, to me. And I believe community to be important. I wouldn't be attending church with folks who believed something radically different than what I did, but even if they do differ slightly, I want my kids to encounter different Christian perspectives, too. We can discuss it, agree, and even disagree without totally breaking relationship. I believe that's an invaluable skill, in any walk of life...but I believe it's crucial to a good, healthy, communally lived Christian walk.

 

And as I mentioned...we're talking one or two hours, up against my multitude of hours spent giving them their primary spiritual instruction, at home.

 

That said...I don't like the idea of Children's Church, and for the most part, our kids don't go. I keep them with us for some very specific reasons, that I believe make good, practical sense, and will yield good things spiritually, but I also know that others who have chosen differently have thought about their decision as well, and I'm comfortable with the fact that good people can sometimes make very different choices, and still be doing a decent job of parenting.

 

 

:iagree: My thoughts are very close to yours. We keep ours in church because we believe strongly in the corporate nature of worship and Christian community. At the same time, if we had age-segregated Sunday School I wouldn't necessarily be against it, depending on the way it was taught. I also understand while others feel differently.

[Scarlett]

You're making quite a few assumptions. (No malice in my tone, either, honestly.)

 

Really it was just a thought that ran through my head that I should have kept to myself. *I* don't worship apart from my son. I do have strong convictions about it for myself, but I certainly dont' sit around all day judging others who do it differently. Really.

[Kelli in TN]

But the part where you say, "...and want to worship with only adults and teens in the sanctuary" is where you lose me. In my mind, that's imposing a cultural expectation on a spiritual practice (congregating as Christians), and doing it to the exclusion of certain members.

 

I've never really thought of it in terms of folks not wanting kids in general in the sanctuary, just them not wanting their particular children in the sanctuary. There's a difference, KWIM? If I knew that there was a sentiment like that in our church...I'm inclined to think I'd feel unwelcome, and compelled to go elsewhere. :-(

 

.

 

 

I did word that just dreadfully, didn't I?

 

How about I want to worship with only the responsibility of our adults, teens, and back in the day, little babies. I never really notice who brings their children in to the sanctuary. I want to shake loose of MY little people during worship.

 

That's at least the second time I have stepped on my tongue in this thread. Sorry folks.

[Kelli in TN]

Wow, it sounds as though you would have no safety-related reasons to NOT send your children to nursery, children's church, etc. Our church really is naive and in the Stone Age of child protection, and it's deeply disturbing. My husband and I are holding our breath, just waiting for something "bad" to happen to a child or teen, because there are no checks and balances. Don't people realize that children are vulnerable and need to be protected? I suppose my training and experience as a social worker -- all the Abuse Prevention Workshops, all the abused children who were REAL -- have clouded my judgment about a little community church.

 

Maybe nothing will happen, but if we keep our girls with us for a time, at least we know where they are! Not roaming around the church alone...

 

I think alot of it has to do with that fact that our church is young, just over 5 years old and growing very fast, we have about 700-800 regular attenders I think. So we have to stay on top of things like this. Our children's director networks with many other churches and keeps up with current trends in children's ministry to see to it that we run a tight ship.

 

You just can't fool around with things like that in a growing church where you have new people coming in all the time. You can't put people in classrooms with kids just because they seem nice or they volunteered. If they can't pass a background check they don't need to come down that hallway except to pick up and drop off their own kids.

 

We also have men who do nothing but patrol the hallway in our children's area so if someone came in during service and headed that way, he or she would be met and questioned (politely of course).

[Kelli in TN]

 

Your church sounds very much like ours, Kelli. I have absolutely no qualms about worshiping apart from my children once a week and studying separately from them once a week. I need to refill my well so I can have something to pour into them.

 

I have gathered from a number of threads that you and I are drawn to the same sort of worship! If you are ever in West Tennessee please come to church with me!!!

[Jugglin'5]

How about I want to worship with only the responsibility of our adults, teens, and back in the day, little babies. I never really notice who brings their children in to the sanctuary. I want to shake loose of MY little people during worship.

 

Let me add a thought here. Please understand that I am not one of those moms who never needs "time off" from the kids. I am very introverted by nature and value my time alone. Why did I choose to have 5 kids, you ask?:D

 

However, Jesus did say some very strong things to his disciples who didn't think that Jesus should be bothered with them. I just don't like the idea of shooing them away so that they don't bother us big people while worshiping God. Does that make any sense? Please read this understanding that I am NOT judging you. I am just trying to explain why I think the modern church may have made a mistake taking this direction, IYKWIM.

[Rebecca in GA]

 

I have gathered from a number of threads that you and I are drawn to the same sort of worship! If you are ever in West Tennessee please come to church with me!!!

 

I absolutely will. :D

[Kelli in TN]

Let me add a thought here. Please understand that I am not one of those moms who never needs "time off" from the kids. I am very introverted by nature and value my time alone. Why did I choose to have 5 kids' date=' you ask?:D

 

However, Jesus did say some very strong things to his disciples who didn't think that Jesus should be bothered with them. I just don't like the idea of shooing them away so that they don't bother us big people while worshiping God. Does that make any sense? Please read this understanding that I am NOT judging you. I am just trying to explain why I think the modern church may have made a mistake taking this direction, IYKWIM.[/quote']

 

That makes sense, but we think that Jesus is working through the teachers in our children's ministry too. We would use the same Biblical principle of Jesus blessing the children to help us decide to place them in the care of those brothers and sisters who minister to them.

 

And having been a member of that team until this last Friday when I had my last day of it, I know how serious we are about this work. So entrenched are we as a team that I have been near to grieving over the need to obey God's direction in my life to take the year off.

 

For our church, to work with children is a very serious mission and we are held to a high standard. We really don't see ourselves shooing them away.

[Karenciavo]

Not from me.

 

My question, after reading through the responses and seeing the majority of them are supportive of folks keeping their children with them in worship is this:

 

What do you *really* think of families who willingly, nay, happily, send their children to classes/worship time for kids and want to sit in the sanctuary with only grownups and teens? (Well, that and wee bairns who are not yet ready for the nursery)

 

Are we being judged and found wanting in the area of developing our children spiritually? Are we found to be negligent in the area of training our children to behave in God's house? Are our choices considered divisive to the family unit?

[Kanga]

My question, after reading through the responses and seeing the majority of them are supportive of folks keeping their children with them in worship is this:

 

What do you *really* think of families who willingly, nay, happily, send their children to classes/worship time for kids and want to sit in the sanctuary with only grownups and teens? (Well, that and wee bairns who are not yet ready for the nursery)

 

Are we being judged and found wanting in the area of developing our children spiritually? Are we found to be negligent in the area of training our children to behave in God's house? Are our choices considered divisive to the family unit?

 

I do not mind if others prefer to send their children out of the sanctuary during worship time. I do mind when they expect me to do the same. We sit by the door and I take my dc out at the first wigggle or whisper then I sit with them in the foyer until they are ready to go back in. So I feel that since my dc are making less noise than the old lady riffling through her purse for a cough drop or the teens who are sitting together rather than with their parents and talking through prayers that my dc's presence should not annoy anyone!

[Kelli in TN]

I do not mind if others prefer to send their children out of the sanctuary during worship time. I do mind when they expect me to do the same. We sit by the door and I take my dc out at the first wigggle or whisper then I sit with them in the foyer until they are ready to go back in. So I feel that since my dc are making less noise than the old lady riffling through her purse for a cough drop or the teens who are sitting together rather than with their parents and talking through prayers that my dc's presence should not annoy anyone!

 

Yeah, I worded that original post really badly and Jill kindly pointed that out to me. I meant that I want to be free of MY little people, but I never notice anyone else's little people.

[Jill- OK]

How about I want to worship with only the responsibility of our adults, teens, and back in the day, little babies. I never really notice who brings their children in to the sanctuary. I want to shake loose of MY little people during worship.

 

That's at least the second time I have stepped on my tongue in this thread. Sorry folks.

 

You didn't word it dreadfully...sometimes it's hard to get it all out there in one message, concisely and absolutely representative of all that you're really trying to say.

 

As I said...more power to you, if you're just talking about your kids. :D I'm not going to sweat everyone's decision in that area, just mine.

 

I should have tried to clarify before assuming what you meant, but I am getting the feeling from some of these threads that some folks, while not necessarily wanting to bar all children from the main service, really do want it tightly controlled ("As long as they're quiet", "As long as they don't ______").

 

While I don't necessarily want a church full of people who do things exactly the same way I do...I would like to think that we're all in it together, and considering each other, equally. (Parents with kids in the service being considerate of those who want quiet and calm, and those who don't bring their children in accepting that conditions will be less than perfectly quiet with kids there).

[Rhondabee]

Our children have formed good, godly relationships with their teachers at church, and with other children, and I know that Sunday school has been a wonderful help in raising our children for the Lord.

 

Yes! Not belonging to a liturgical church, "worship" is really something *I* do privately between myself and God. Worship is me sacrificing myself in my private "prayer closet", in thankfulness for his sacrifice on my behalf. Church is for teaching (somewhat), and fellowship.

 

My church family, and the needs that are presented by them (& to them), is what pulls me away from my cocoon of a life as a homeschooling mom! It is what keeps me aware of my tendency to self-service, and my-own-family service, and my troubling sin of self-righteousness. I suppose if I were a better person, I wouldn't need to go to church for that, but this is my honest assessment of myself.

 

I really don't care where children are. However, I will never go to a church that refuses to offer services/classes for young children after being told by church leaders in one such church that I should spank my younger ds (then 12-18mo) into learning how to whisper. I felt they wanted me to do something along the lines of Colleen's former post, and I refused. They said awful, *awful* things about our parenting, and made not very well-concealed implications about our spiritual states as well. (But, this was a church that didn't even have a nursury, so obviously kids w/parents was expected.)

 

Since I was tired of dressing up in my best just to walk around outside with a my toddler every Sunday, we found another church. Now people come and tell me they will be *so* surprised if that same ds (now 10yo) isn't a minister one day.

 

=)

Rhonda

[Niffercoo]

I didn't respond in the other thread because this is something that's really been complicated for our family over the years. So complicated that I've only been to church once this entire year (on Easter) and my husband works part-time at our church! We've had one set of problems this past school year, and now we're getting ready to add a new problem for this coming school year!

 

Our church does 2 different children's churches, one for K-2, and one for 3-5. Reece would be by herself in K-2. There are huge screens that play Veggie Tales and the "lesson" on video. There are 2 X-box game systems. It is loud and crowd-control is non-existent. A couple of years ago, Riley left the children's church and came to find me in the worship center, and nobody even noticed she was gone! The worship center is 2 buildings over from the children's church! I knew then that Reece would not be able to go to children's church without help.

 

I asked for help from the children's pastor all last summer, and was told that there was nothing they could do. Meanwhile, there is a girl who has Down's that gets help, but since Reece's autism isn't 'visible' they wouldn't help me. I decided to put Austin in the older children's church. and I would attend younger children's church with Reece. Austin hasn't gone since he was little because of the noise factor. He is very quiet and attentive during the service, but we were told by the other staff that he has to sit with an adult if he won't go to children's church. Since dh is on stage for more than half the service, that wouldn't work. So I begged Austin to go to the older children's church, and he obliged me, and I took Reece to younger children's church. She didn't speak for 3 days afterward. She retreated into herself. She was totally overwhelmed and to this day she will not watch Veggie Tales because of them being "big" on the screens.

 

So I just took her to my SS class with me (a ladies class) but I didn't get anything out of it because I was trying to keep her quiet and entertained. Then I took her to the service with me (which is during the children's church time), and I spent all my time trying to keep her quiet because nobody in our church has any patience for children in the service.

 

Now for this coming school year, Austin will be youth group age, which for our church is 6th-12th!!! There is no way I can put him in there with 17-18 year olds. He is socially immature and naive, and the youth group at our church is very cliquish.

 

So I don't go to church. The kids and I stay home, and my husband helps to lead worship for hundreds while his family's needs are not met. We need his income from the church or he probably wouldn't stay at all. It is very hurtful that nobody wants to help us out. One Sunday I had to be gone, and he had to work, so he sent Riley to children's church to help with Reece. Reece hid under the stairs the entire time because it was too loud and chaotic. Riley just sat with her so she wouldn't be alone. Nobody cared.

 

I guess I went through all of this to tell you that if I saw you in the service with your kids or without your kids, I wouldn't judge you. I have long since stopped judging other parents. I've been on the receiving end of the judgment for too long. I understand that families are doing what works best for their family! I'm glad you're at church one way or another! :)

 

I'm looking for a church for the me and the kids right now. There is a mega-church near us that has a special needs ministry and they are wonderful. We know lots of people there from baseball and choir, so we might go there. I would prefer a smaller church, but then I don't know what I would do with Reece. This church has a middle school ministry for Austin but it's huge, and again I worry about how he would manage socially. I keep meaning to call to ask if they have a special needs ministry for the older kids or if it's just for the little ones.

[Kelli in TN]

I'm looking for a church for the me and the kids right now. There is a mega-church near us that has a special needs ministry and they are wonderful. We know lots of people there from baseball and choir, so we might go there. I would prefer a smaller church, but then I don't know what I would do with Reece. This church has a middle school ministry for Austin but it's huge, and again I worry about how he would manage socially. I keep meaning to call to ask if they have a special needs ministry for the older kids or if it's just for the little ones.

 

 

We are working on this at our church as well. It is hard from a ministry standpoint. In one special needs class we have children who are profoundly mentally retarded in with children who are of average or above average intelligence but are autistic and cannot stand the noise of our children's classes. It's a start, but I know as we grow we are going to have to become better at this. My special needs son is in the regular classes right now. Parents choose where they want their children and children can switch back and forth with their parents' permission. I just know we are going to need to develop this ministry further and I think some children's ministry team members will probably need training for it at some point. I think all churches need to look at how they are serving their special populations.

 

The volunteers in that class are some of the sweetest people I know.

[johnandtinagilbert]

No judgment on anyone who sends their kids to CC, just thought I'd share why I no longer would . Kelli, I thought you might appreciate the honest opinion.

 

I am being plainly honest, and don't tend to soften things, I just put them out there, so here goes the reasons:

 

There is a place in the body of Christ whereby we (believers) should fill the needs of others. That need may be to relieve a parent so they can take time to spiritually rejuvenate or spend a quiet moment with the Lord, seek prayer, etc., i.e. need time away from children. I have found that many are willing to fill that need by volunteering at church in the nursery or children's church type classes. That can be a blessing...I have also found it to be a curse. Indulge me to explain, please.

 

Personal experience as a)church leader b)church worker c)person receiving that blessing has taught me this:

 

1. In the churches I have attended, there are never enough workers b/c either the church wants a bigger ministry than they have staff for, or the same sweet people volunteer all the time and don't get fed, therefore, they're burnt out, or resentful. Both of which, negate the original intent, church members serving the church family. Most people, outside of their circle of close friends, would never admit this, but I've seen and heard it many, many times. Many churches believe by faith that the positions will be filled, but are not willing to look at the chance that those "positions" aren't what God has for their church, so they keep trying to fill them.

 

2. Churches are eager to get help, so people who have attended for very short periods of time have been thrown into leadership, or teaching positions, simply b/c they were willing. It's dangerous when you haven't seen the fruit of a person's life, to accept them into leadership. Amongst many reasons, willingness, and capability, are two very different things. In the end, I have volunteered with and witnessed people in Children's Church/Kid's Sunday School positions that had no order in their classrooms and honestly "loved kids" but just weren't cut our for teaching roles. As a result, Kid's church was not taken seriously by the children. Perhaps, with time, these volunteers could be great at it, but to throw them into the Lion's den, imo, not the best first step and didn't fulfill the goals of Children's Church.

 

3. Allowing young adults, or adult singles, to be in charge of groups of teens (who are facing issues like sexual purity, dating, peer pressure, drugs, etc.) that require wisdom, not just some cool person, to really navigate through is dangerous. For example, 23 year old male, nice guy, leading worship for teens, dates and breaks up with 4 girls in the congregation, very public with affection, also very public with break up. I don't think these are bad things, necessarily, but not what I believe a person in leadership should be modeling for impressionable teens.

 

4. I have seen a lot of parents that really don't teach spiritual matters at home. They walk a good looking life, but they don't get in the word or teach God's word at home b/c they believe Sunday School is enough. Don't get me wrong, Pastors always preach "teach at home", but when the opportunity is so easy for parents, a Sunday morning drop off is enough, so some don't bother. It always amazed me when teachers would comment on how well my children know bible stories...I'd think, "Um, shouldn't they know them? Aren't I supposed to be teaching them God's word as a part of our daily life? Why are people so surprised by this?" Those comments do not reflect well on the body as a whole, in particular to a Sunday School class.

 

5. The programs I have witnessed are more fun focused than bible focused. Fun is okay, but when they are memorizing verses for candy, not to really get the word in them, I don't agree. (Fundamental philosophy, I know, but this is my opinion here, right?)

 

6. I am particular about with whom my kids spend time and the truth is, just b/c a child goes to church, does not mean he/she reflects godliness.

 

7. I have a fundamental objection to Sunday as The day to serve. If there is someone in the body that needs a break, needs advice, needs nurturing, needs to learn to operate in their gifting, then I think it should be a real world learning experience (much like home schooling), not one that is on a certain day of the week (like ps) If there is a mom that needs some quiet time, give it to her like the Good Samaritan...when she needs it....not just b/c it's Sunday morning.

 

So, although I have spoken in a way that may be received harshly, and judgmental, I have no judgment on individuals who put their children in Kid's Church, I simply see the system as faulty. Much in the same way I see the public school system as faulty and therefore choose to home school. I choose to keep my children with me so I am certain they are getting what dh and I believe to be best, in the best environment we can offer. When I need a break, God has graciously provided a Good Samaritan to clothe me, feed me, and pay for my time in the inn.

 

Truly, truly don't judge regarding this. Just laying out what I have learned over time and what works best for us.

[Colleen]

What do you *really* think of families who willingly, nay, happily, send their children to classes/worship time for kids and want to sit in the sanctuary with only grownups and teens? (Well, that and wee bairns who are not yet ready for the nursery)

 

Are we being judged and found wanting in the area of developing our children spiritually? Are we found to be negligent in the area of training our children to behave in God's house? Are our choices considered divisive to the family unit?

 

I haven't read the other replies yet. Has anyone actually said, "Yes, I'm judging you." or "Yes, you're being judged."? I guess...I'm wondering why you ask. If you're comfortable with what you're doing, why would it matter what those of us who make a different choice think? Particularly given that we don't attend your church. I'm not trying to be snippy; I don't know if I'm doing a very good job of expressing myself. I'm just hoping that you aren't asking a question, only to feel hurt by some of the answers.

 

Having said that, I mentioned in the other thread that our church doesn't have Sunday School during worship. We don't have "children's church", either. I am very glad of this, our chapel's intentional desire not to take children away from corporate worship. We do offer a nursery for younger children, and I'm glad of that, too. I'm one who has always taken advantage of the nursery; others haven't. To each his/her own.

 

I actually would be very, very hesitant to attend a church that offered children's classes or worship during the worship service because I strongly believe in the value of corporate worship. It has been an incredible blessing to us, having our boys be present during the service. I believe it's a significant factor in our children's spiritual development, something they'll look back on with appreciation. Our pastor's expositional preaching style is very accessible and my four older boys all take notes during the sermon. An added bonus, since I don't specifically teach note-taking at home.;)

[Kanga]

Yeah, I worded that original post really badly and Jill kindly pointed that out to me. I meant that I want to be free of MY little people, but I never notice anyone else's little people.

 

I started to respond to your post and ended up responding more to my current situation. I should have pointed that out before I posted.

 

When we moved to our current location a couple of years ago we found a church that met the needs of our family; we really enjoyed the pastor's sermons, the youth group was fantastic, and the learning groups studies were deep and meaningful. Then the baby came along. It turns out that most of the congregation do not just believe that children should not be heard, but that they should also not be seen. We really have tried to make it work because there is so much we like about the church, but I have been made to feel so unwelcome (even when holding a sleeping baby on my shoulder) that I have stayed home with the baby since he started getting wiggley. Leaving him in the nursery is not an option, so our family has decided to start searching for a new church this summer.

[Kelli in TN]

 

I haven't read the other replies yet. Has anyone actually said, "Yes, I'm judging you." or "Yes, you're being judged."? I guess...I'm wondering why you ask. [/color]

 

Because I was curious and because I thought it would be an interesting conversation and an interesting way to find out how people think. I am interested in how people think.

[Niffercoo]

We are working on this at our church as well. It is hard from a ministry standpoint. In one special needs class we have children who are profoundly mentally retarded in with children who are of average or above average intelligence but are autistic and cannot stand the noise of our children's classes. It's a start, but I know as we grow we are going to have to become better at this. My special needs son is in the regular classes right now. Parents choose where they want their children and children can switch back and forth with their parents' permission. I just know we are going to need to develop this ministry further and I think some children's ministry team members will probably need training for it at some point. I think all churches need to look at how they are serving their special populations.

 

The volunteers in that class are some of the sweetest people I know.

 

I think that, especially when it comes to children on the autism spectrum, churches have a huge opportunity to minister to families. I know it's hard to find volunteers, and I appreciate every single person who has worked with my children (especially my special needs children!). Just last week, the kids attended VBS at the mega-church I mentioned in my other post. Reece got placed into a regular class by mistake. There were 2100 children in this VBS, and 25 children in her particular class, with 2 adults. They were very flexible in trying first to have a teenager attend the regular class with her. But the noise and transitions were just more than she could bear. So she spent the last 4 days in the special needs class. She loved it, the people loved her (she knew the teacher and helpers from the monthly respite program this church offers). I appreciated the flexibility to try her in the regular class. Austin managed the regular class with little trouble (which gives me hope for the potential for youth group in the fall). The noise was terrible for him,too, but he has much better coping mechanisms in place than Reece does.

 

Also, I think people need to take into consideration that if they see a parent at church without their child, there might be a very good reason that the child cannot handle the worship service. And on the other hand, folks could be more understanding with the parent who needs to bring their child to the service because they can't handle the programming offered for children. Otherwise, they will just end up staying home, like I have.

[Carol in Cal.]

I would not ever judge you.

 

But I guess I have to say that there are some people who I would judge, a bit, while trying not to. They are the people who don't seem to want to teach their children much of anything, including how to behave. When being glad to drop off their children elsewhere during church falls on top of that tendency, I have to work really hard not to be judgmental.

 

But in general, I go to a liturgical Lutheran church, and for us worship is very different from instruction, although it does have instructive elements. We believe that worship is God serving us, with Word and Sacrament, and that everyone benefits from this, youngest to oldest. So I didn't even use our nursery for kids through age 4 very much when DD was little, because I thought that the sooner we established the principle that worship is not optional, the better, and also because worship is so special to me that I wanted to share it with her from the beginning.

 

But, from a practical standpoint, our church supports that point of view in several ways. We have a Sunday school where age-appropriate and age-segregated instruction is done. We have lots and lots of music--3-4 hymns, many verses of each, and lots of sung liturgy and even a choir. So realistically babies can be making a fair amount of noise during about half of the service and no one will really notice. (I did reserve major nursing for the sermon, as well as judicious applications of goldfish crackers, one at a time, during DD's younger years, however.) The sermon doesn't usually contain material that is too 'adult' for children to be exposed to--although they don't understand everything that is said, the subjects are drawn straight from the Bible readings and usually the pastor reserves topics that are more private for adult Bible class. (Our current pastor was slow to come around to that point of view, but I could always tell when he was about to bring up abortion or homos*xuality and start whispering something into DD's ear that would override whatever reference he made that I didn't want her to hear at age 5 or whatever.) So I would say that our church is set up to focus on and support family worship, and further, that we go out of our way to welcome babies and very young children, and to make their parents feel at home even if their children make a little noise, because we think it is so important that they worship from the earliest age.

 

I would also say that if I attended a church where children could only relate to each other if they left worship to do so, that would not be acceptable to me for very long. I imagine that a church like that, though, would also have a very different theology of worship that I do, and so we would be incompatible on a much more fundamental level than the issue of separate worship.

 

But, there are many Christian denominations who love Christ and are right with Him, who have different views in several ways than mine; and I may disagree, sometimes vehemently, with them without considering them outside of Christianity. And, frankly, there are parents with whom I disagree, sometimes vehemently, about all kinds of aspect of their parenting; from discipline to education to character training to priorities. That doesn't exactly mean I judge them. Grandma always said that you can disagree without being disagreeable, and I try to stick to that, not always successfully.

 

I don't judge you. I respect and like you! We agree far more than we disagree.

[Harriet Vane]

The only time I have ever gotten upset about this issue was when a know-it-all INSISTED that having kids leave the service is best for kids and best for parents. Obviously there I am not reacting to the presence (or lack thereof) of this person's children in service, but rather, their blanket judgment.

 

I have always thought--it's NOT a sin issue one way or the other. Therefore, it's a matter of what fits your family best. It's a matter of personal preference. As such, it's none of my business what others choose to do.