Plucky Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 My son's best friend is taking a math class with him. Today he had to retake a test because his instructor said that he and another student had the same answers on the test and it wasn't the first time. During the first test they weren't sitting anywhere next to each other. The second test they were sitting together, but my son knows both of these guys and he said they would never cheat. On the first test his friend got a higher score. I'm confused. When she was told they weren't sitting next to each other for the first test she didn't care and just walked away. I know this teacher has a bad rep and bad ratings on rate your professor. I'm just gobsmacked though. Do these boys have any rights or are they at the mercy of the instructor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The college should have a procedure which must be followed in case academic dishonesty is suspected. Typically, it is very difficult for a professor to prove that cheating has occurred. Normally, there are procedures such as formal hearings in place. I would first of all tell them to make sure that protocol has been followed. Then, if they feel they have grounds for appeal, they should go up the chain in command. The professor is probably required to list in her syllabus whom the students need to contact in case of an unresolved complaint. This said, being given the opportunity to retake a test is actually very lenient for a professor who thinks that cheating has occurred. Normally, the penalty would be at least a grade of zero on the assignment in questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 The college should have a procedure which must be followed in case academic dishonesty is suspected. Typically, it is very difficult for a professor to prove that cheating has occurred. Normally, there are procedures such as formal hearings in place.I would first of all tell them to make sure that protocol has been followed. Then, if they feel they have grounds for appeal, they should go up the chain in command. The professor is probably required to list in her syllabus whom the students need to contact in case of an unresolved complaint. This said, being given the opportunity to retake a test is actually very lenient for a professor who thinks that cheating has occurred. Normally, the penalty would be at least a grade of zero on the assignment in questions. But how can she say that they cheated when one had a higher score, and also didn't sit next to each other. I think this teacher is hyper vigilant about cheating. I believe she is wrong in this case, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 So how did he do on the retake? If his friend is a good student, it's possible that the other person glanced at his paper or that the answers were coincidentally the same. Unless the retake score caused a drop in grade, I wouldn't worry. It is quite possible, btw, for one to have a higher score than the other even if cheating has occured due to only cheating on one page, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 A number of these students took the same class last quarter with the same instructor. They would have been taught how to solve math equations in the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 So how did he do on the retake? If his friend is a good student, it's possible that the other person glanced at his paper or that the answers were coincidentally the same. Unless the retake score caused a drop in grade, I wouldn't worry. It is quite possible, btw, for one to have a higher score than the other even if cheating has occured due to only cheating on one page, etc. We will know tomorrow. But part of her evidence was the first test, and they were not sitting near each other for that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 But how can she say that they cheated when one had a higher score, and also didn't sit next to each other. I think this teacher is hyper vigilant about cheating. I believe she is wrong in this case, too. Obviously I do not know how she came to the conclusion. Having different scores, btw, does not rule out cheating at all; students may cheat on one page of the test but not on another, or on a single problem. Not sitting next to each other does not preclude cheating; thanks to modern technology you could even cheat with a person taking the test in a different room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest submarines Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Retaking the test as a penalty for cheating? This doesn't sound right. I'd wonder whether the professor lost the test paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Obviously I do not know how she came to the conclusion. Having different scores, btw, does not rule out cheating at all; students may cheat on one page of the test but not on another, or on a single problem. Not sitting next to each other does not preclude cheating; thanks to modern technology you could even cheat with a person taking the test in a different room. I'm sure this is possible, but that doesn't make it true in this case. There needs to be concrete evidence. It isn't fair to these boys. They are running start students and not the cheating type. I know people will argue about that, but we do know them. If anything the rep of this instructor can be called into question. She used to work at a big university and now teaches at community colleges. None of the students like her or think she's a good teacher. :001_unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 A number of these students took the same class last quarter with the same instructor. They would have been taught how to solve math equations in the same way. It would be rare (although certainly not impossible -- it IS possible that the professor is just nuts) for someone to be called out for cheating simply for solving an equation in the same way -- what has usually tipped me off is two students making the same unusual error or using the same unusual notation. e.g. One of my students miscopied 140 as 110 due to being unable to read his own handwriting. The student who was copying off him had a perfectly correctly written 140, and in the next line was using 110, with no explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 It would be rare (although certainly not impossible) for someone to be called out for cheating simply for solving an equation in the same way -- what has usually tipped me off is two students making the same unusual error or using the same unusual notation. e.g. One of my students miscopied 140 as 110 due to being unable to read his own handwriting. The student who was copying off him had a perfectly correctly written 140, and in the next line was using 110, with no explanation. Ok, what if one boy is cheating off the other, and that one does not know it. Then what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Retaking the test as a penalty for cheating? This doesn't sound right. I'd wonder whether the professor lost the test paper. Well, she doesn't have any evidence, so this is all she can do I guess. What if both boys end up with the same results? Then what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Ok, what if one boy is cheating off the other, and that one does not know it. Then what? Well, that's what a retake would show -- the one who wasn't cheating ought to do the same as before, whereas the one who was cheating would be expected to do far worse. But really, this depends on the policies of the college -- they vary so much by college. However, anyone bringing this up should definitely be one of the two students affected. If they WERE cheating (you never know), it is very, very much to their advantage to get a test retake instead of formal charges of academic dishonesty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink Fairy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 If she didn't actually suspect cheating, what motive would she have for her accusation? It seems like a strange thing to do otherwise. I think having them retake the test seems like a fair way to check out her suspicion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 If she didn't actually suspect cheating, what motive would she have for her accusation? It seems like a strange thing to do otherwise. I think having them retake the test seems like a fair way to check out her suspicion. I told my son I wouldn't believe the boys' story either if I didn't know them personally, and know about the teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The college should have a procedure which must be followed in case academic dishonesty is suspected. Typically, it is very difficult for a professor to prove that cheating has occurred. Normally, there are procedures such as formal hearings in place.I would first of all tell them to make sure that protocol has been followed. Then, if they feel they have grounds for appeal, they should go up the chain in command. The professor is probably required to list in her syllabus whom the students need to contact in case of an unresolved complaint. :iagree: I doubt if making accusation outside of the "process" and forcing them to retake tests is part of it. I also doubt if having the same answer is grounds for an accusation of cheating. Doesn't everyone with the correct answer have the same answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm sure this is possible, but that doesn't make it true in this case. There needs to be concrete evidence. It isn't fair to these boys. They are running start students and not the cheating type. I know people will argue about that, but we do know them. If anything the rep of this instructor can be called into question. She used to work at a big university and now teaches at community colleges. None of the students like her or think she's a good teacher. :001_unsure: Whether she is a good teacher or liked by the students should have absolutely no bearing on the issue of following proper protocol of the school. The students affected by this should bring this up with the faculty advisor, or chair of the department. I simply do not believe there is a college that has a policy on academic dishonesty that rules "a teacher shall give a retake test based on suspicion of cheating". Neither the suspicion part nor the consequence seem right to me. The students should look up the school's policies and insist that they are followed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I think having them retake the test seems like a fair way to check out her suspicion. Actually, I think making them take a retest because she thought they were cheating is a PUNISHMENT and not at all fair. Either she has enough "proof" to prosecute or she doesn't. If she does, she should prosecute. If she doesn't, she needs to drop it. Anything else in unfair, either to the two boys (if they didn't cheat ) or to everyone else (if they did cheat.) That's why colleges have POLICIES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Whether she is a good teacher or liked by the students should have absolutely no bearing on the issue of following proper protocol of the school. The students affected by this should bring this up with the faculty advisor, or chair of the department. I simply do not believe there is a college that has a policy on academic dishonesty that rules "a teacher shall give a retake test based on suspicion of cheating". Neither the suspicion part nor the consequence seem right to me. The students should look up the school's policies and insist that they are followed. You are right. Although I am annoyed a little because I told the boys not to take her class based on the reviews. Oh, well nothing we can do now. If it isn't a policy why would she do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootsie Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Cheating CAN occur when students are not sitting next to each other. Also, I have had situations in which cheating was evident even though students had different test scores. I will often give identical problems, except for differences in the numbers. For example, one version of the exam will have (4 X 3) + 2 and another version will have (4 X 2) + 3. Two students willl have the same answer of 14, but one has the question correct and the other has the question incorrect. When a student has correct answers for another student's exam rather than his own, cheating is highly probable. The college should have detailed procedures of how these types of issues are handled. Where I teach now, I must fill out paperwork for any student I suspect of cheating which must be sent up the chain of command before I can assess any penalty. I have taught at other schools where the professor could assess a penalty, but the student could initiate a process to appeal that penalty. Be aware that the professor probably has facts which you do not know. Because of privacy laws, there may be many facts (including the actual scores the students received on the exams) which you don't know. Also, a professor who is vigilant about cheating may very well get poor ratings on RateMyProfessor because students who are caught are the most likely to post things there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 That's unfortunate. My first thought was that these boys might have studied together. If I don't know how to work a problem, I'm going to ask someone to show me how they did it. Then I repeat that procedure on similar problems. If we both work the problems out the same way on a test, I guess it would look like cheating. What kind of math class is this? I'm used to straightforward 'this is how to apply the formula to this type of problem' situation. I do not do well with creative math problems! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Update: She sent them emails saying everything was fine with their tests. No apology. Apparently it was just a coincidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 That's unfortunate. My first thought was that these boys might have studied together. If I don't know how to work a problem, I'm going to ask someone to show me how they did it. Then I repeat that procedure on similar problems. If we both work the problems out the same way on a test, I guess it would look like cheating. What kind of math class is this? I'm used to straightforward 'this is how to apply the formula to this type of problem' situation. I do not do well with creative math problems! A calculus class. These boys have no reason to cheat, they have many, many more math classes to go in their field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Cheating CAN occur when students are not sitting next to each other. Also, I have had situations in which cheating was evident even though students had different test scores. I will often give identical problems, except for differences in the numbers. For example, one version of the exam will have (4 X 3) + 2 and another version will have (4 X 2) + 3. Two students willl have the same answer of 14, but one has the question correct and the other has the question incorrect. When a student has correct answers for another student's exam rather than his own, cheating is highly probable. The college should have detailed procedures of how these types of issues are handled. Where I teach now, I must fill out paperwork for any student I suspect of cheating which must be sent up the chain of command before I can assess any penalty. I have taught at other schools where the professor could assess a penalty, but the student could initiate a process to appeal that penalty. Be aware that the professor probably has facts which you do not know. Because of privacy laws, there may be many facts (including the actual scores the students received on the exams) which you don't know. Also, a professor who is vigilant about cheating may very well get poor ratings on RateMyProfessor because students who are caught are the most likely to post things there. Nope not the case in this situation. I would have waited until the next test and had someone come in and specifically watch the two. I think the way it has been handled is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scholarly Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I just wanted to say that the teacher may have thought she was doing the boys a kindness by just having them retake a test and to try to sort it out herself rather than report her suspicions to the Academic Dean or Dean of Student Affairs. As it happens, her suspicions were unfounded and no other professors or administrators even know there was a suspicion, keeping the boys' reputations spotless. The less official paperwork concerning cheating in a student's file, the better! Just thinking about it from another perspective (which could be totally wrong...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 I just wanted to say that the teacher may have thought she was doing the boys a kindness by just having them retake a test and to try to sort it out herself rather than report her suspicions to the Academic Dean or Dean of Student Affairs. As it happens, her suspicions were unfounded and no other professors or administrators even know there was a suspicion, keeping the boys' reputations spotless. The less official paperwork concerning cheating in a student's file, the better! Just thinking about it from another perspective (which could be totally wrong...) I'm not ready to be generous to her. Pretty much the whole class now knows they were suspected of cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endurancerider Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I would be asking for Extra Credit for having to come in and retake the test! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 I would be asking for Extra Credit for having to come in and retake the test! Yeah really. They had to miss class & the next lecture and take the test instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Update: She sent them emails saying everything was fine with their tests. No apology. Apparently it was just a coincidence. I'd forward that email to her boss with a complaint if I was your son. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 I'd forward that email to her boss with a complaint if I was your son. This is the time for the boys to show her how much character and class they have and forgive her. Move on and ask her how to prevent it from happening to them again. I told them to start sitting in the front of the classroom where they can be seen. I still feel sad about the accusation. What is scarier is it could have affected their lives long term if she had stuck to her guns. It probably is a good thing she had them retake the test in separate rooms. She could've avoided all this by watching them closely or having someone else watch them. These kind of accusations should be concrete and not just a guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 She could've avoided all this by watching them closely or having someone else watch them.. How much experience do you have in proctoring in-class exams? It is practically impossible to watch everybody closely and avoid all cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 How much experience do you have in proctoring in-class exams? It is practically impossible to watch everybody closely and avoid all cheating. None, but if she had any thought they were cheating she could've had someone watching them specifically. She made accusations that have been proven wrong, and humiliated innocent students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReader Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 This is the time for the boys to show her how much character and class they have and forgive her.. Yes, it is. maybe time for you to do so, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cin Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Retaking the test as a penalty for cheating? This doesn't sound right. I'd wonder whether the professor lost the test paper. Good Point. bad rep because she's wildly disorganized? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBeth Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Yes, it is. maybe time for you to do so, too. :iagree: Especially considering you really have zero firsthand knowledge of how things went down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Quote: Originally Posted by True Blue This is the time for the boys to show her how much character and class they have and forgive her.. Yes, it is. maybe time for you to do so, too. __________________ If everyone "shows how much character and class they have and forgives her" she will never be reported or stop harassing innocent students. "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Yes, it is. maybe time for you to do so, too. I think people's biases are very telling here. One isn't allowed to be upset at a teacher being wrong and humiliating students? They entire class could go over her head with the way she has treated her students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 :iagree: Especially considering you really have zero firsthand knowledge of how things went down. I have more than you know. Much, much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 If everyone "shows how much character and class they have and forgives her" she will never be reported or stop harassing innocent students. "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." The problem is she has the power. The power to mess with students heads, and give them bad grades. In essence she has the power to mess with good students' records. Yeah, both boys have 3.8s, are 16 & 17, in running start, and were homeschooled. They are good kids. They didn't cheat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterflymommy Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 You should absolutely report it. She may also have singled about the boys because they were homeschooled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 You should absolutely report it. She may also have singled about the boys because they were homeschooled. No, I don't believe she knows. She has 5 or 6 homeschoolers in her class and doesn't know it. They are all very nice, scholarly kids. They don't look any different from the other kids. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I really don't understand what there is to report. The had the same answers so she made them redo the test. How is that unreasonable? As pp stated she let them off easy as she didn't report it. There is no credence to the claim that they weren't sitting by each other, cheating is rampant in a variety of ways. It isn't just the looking over each others shoulders these days. In real life sometimes you are accused unfairly. They were given a chance to prove themselves and did. In college and real life not everyone is just going to *know* that your kids are innocent and pure. You cannot expect them to make that assumption and it would be wrong if they did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 I really don't understand what there is to report. The had the same answers so she made them redo the test. How is that unreasonable? As pp stated she let them off easy as she didn't report it. There is no credence to the claim that they weren't sitting by each other, cheating is rampant in a variety of ways. It isn't just the looking over each others shoulders these days. In real life sometimes you are accused unfairly. They were given a chance to prove themselves and did. In college and real life not everyone is just going to *know* that your kids are innocent and pure. You cannot expect them to make that assumption and it would be wrong if they did. There are 15 kids in her class, she could have had someone in to watch the next test. All the other students know about the accusation. She was very rude and didn't listen to them when they were asking her questions about what was going on and were confused. I don't know about you, but I don't make accusation against people unless I can prove them. I would hate to be wrong about something like that. I am hoping the boys have her show them exactly what it was on their tests that made her question them. They deserve to know why they were accused and on what basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Where is this person coming in to watch the test? My professors never had assistants right there and were generally overworked as it was. Tthis is College. There are sometimes rude professors, just like some bosses are jerks. I'd want to know why exactly I was accused and would be indignant but with the information so far I don't think she was out of line. If she cannot show them why then I'd pursue it. I think one has the right to know the cause for accusation but really it seems more a lesson in life isn't fair to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leav97 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 There are 15 kids in her class, she could have had someone in to watch the next test. All the other students know about the accusation. She was very rude and didn't listen to them when they were asking her questions about what was going on and were confused. I don't know about you, but I don't make accusation against people unless I can prove them. I would hate to be wrong about something like that. I am hoping the boys have her show them exactly what it was on their tests that made her question them. They deserve to know why they were accused and on what basis. How do all of the other kids know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 How do all of the other kids know? She accused them in the front of the class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest submarines Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 She accused them in the front of the class. That's vindictive and unprofessional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DusksAngel Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 She accused them in the front of the class. The boys need to put in a complaint. What she did was unprofessional and could lead to others in the class treating them differently based on the allegation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leav97 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 She accused them in the front of the class. They need to file a complaint about that. Well they are filing the complaint they should also ask for any proof of her accusation. And get a copy of the school policy for cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'smom Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I really don't understand what there is to report. The had the same answers so she made them redo the test. How is that unreasonable? As pp stated she let them off easy as she didn't report it. There is no credence to the claim that they weren't sitting by each other, cheating is rampant in a variety of ways. It isn't just the looking over each others shoulders these days. In real life sometimes you are accused unfairly. They were given a chance to prove themselves and did. In college and real life not everyone is just going to *know* that your kids are innocent and pure. You cannot expect them to make that assumption and it would be wrong if they did. :iagree::iagree::iagree: I also agree with the PP that said she let them off easy. Yes, I realize they were innocent, but if she suspected them and filed a formal thing about it- it would have been MUCH harder to get rid of than simply taking a retest. 2 years from now, no one will remember this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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