Saved: You are because of how you think/believe or You are because of what you do?

[hmschooling]

Originally Posted by transientChris

I voted for number one but really it is because God chose me to be saved and the Holy Spirit brought the desire for God into me and therefore I believed. I chose 1 because it really has nothing to do with my actions or with anyone else's actions. Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

 

:iagree:

[LMD]

Oh no, I'm bugged again. Does this mean she will go to hell for her view?

 

You don't go to hell because of a particular view (or not), or a particular sin. Salvation describes the state of the soul - joined with God through Jesus - or not. Particular actions/thoughts come because of the state of the soul, joined with God = God's spirit works though us, seperated from God = God's spirit not working in us. Beliefs/Actions don't cause the state of the soul to change, I believe that only God can do that...

So I am saved because of God alone - and His Spirit then determines (if I let it) what I'll believe and/or do.

 

Some people may profess salvation but it's not real, therefore the actions don't follow. For some it may be real but they are obstructing the work of God in them. I cannot judge the state of another's soul - only God can, He doesn't put labels on us!

[mcconnellboys]

I can't really vote, either. I don't believe that I'm saved because of anything that I have done (except believe in Jesus as my saviour) or anything that I will ever do. I believe that we are saved by grace alone. It is a gift of God to us, in spite of our inperfection, because of his Son....

 

Because I am saved, I should want to try to follow Christ and do good works, but I do not believe that those works affect my salvation....

 

I do not know that any one person on earth possess "the" true and correct view of either salvation or God. We are all fallible. Even the disciples were fallible and they were living with Christ.... His ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts; all we can hope for is to muddle along, dying to sin daily and trying again to follow Him....

 

Since I can't hope to truly "know" God's perspective, I can't know that everything I do is good, right, or necessary. I can only pray for Him to lead me in what I do and guide me toward doing what He wants, what is right, etc....

[chepyl]

My belief is that good works do not produce salvation but salvation will produce good works.

 

:iagree:

 

I voted for the first, but only because the second choice is not mu view at all. The first does not fit well, but it is closer.

[8circles]

:confused:

Neither.

 

Eta: just read the whole thread. No, I don't think the doctrine of "faith/grace alone" is dangerous. All doctrine are able to be distorted or misunderstood. I do don't believe there is any good to come from trying to determine who will be saved or not & for what reason. That is for God to know, not me. I believe he wants us all to be saved & im confident in my own salvation.

Edited December 16, 2011 by momoflaw

[MrsMe]

C, None of the above.

I am saved because God out of his own free grace pardons all my sins and accepts me as righteous in his sight because of the finished work of Jesus Christ, which God has enabled me to receive by faith alone.

 

Ephesians 2:1-10

 

2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved athrough faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

 

The poll question poses a false dichotomy. True faith and growth in sanctification cannot be separated.

 

Ditto!

[3Blessings]

James 2:20-24

You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,â€[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Romans 3:27- 31

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

It is helpful to look at the entire passage of James, not just the one sentence. Scripture is interpreted in the light of other scripture.

The commonality of the two passages in James and Romans is that it has to do with works that are ACCOMPLISHED THROUGH AND PRECEDED BY FAITH. It was faith that Abraham demonstrated by believing and following God. That was the “work†Abraham did: he believed and followed in what God had instructed him.

Paul addresses this, too. We do not need the “ works†of the Law (the Torah) to be justified or saved. We have someone who has fulfilled that old law for us. We are saved by faith in Jesus. Faith in Jesus only.

Further, people get this “faith without works is dead†passage confused. It isn’t a HAVE TO, it is a WANT TO. When we recognize the huge gift of salvation and are sanctified through Christ on a daily basis then our RESPONSE, like Abraham's (to believe and follow) are the good deeds that we do. We are called to care for the orphan, the widow, and those in need, but those particular works don’t save us, the faith that precedes them saves us.

[MamaSheep]

I can't answer this poll either. I am saved "because of" what Jesus believed and did, not because of what I believe and do. But I think we access that gift of Jesus based on what we are in the process of becoming, which involves both what we believe and what we do about that belief, as well as how we interact with God and whatever changes he is bringing about in who we are (and what we think and feel, and how we act on it). Faith without works is dead. Works without faith are dead. It's not an either this or that kind of thing. Leaving out, or placing undue emphasis on either one will not bring you to Christ IMO.

[Heather in Neverland]

Oh no, I'm bugged again. Does this mean she will go to hell for her view?

 

No. :D

 

It just means she has an opinion. I believe skiing is a dangerous, ridiculous activity. It's just my opinion.

 

There are spine issues and there are rib issues. Issues such as NOT believing that Jesus is God's son will affect your salvation. They are the very foundations of the Christian faith. Rib issues are more personal convictions but they do NOT affect your salvation. For instance, some women feel convicted to wear a head covering. There is nothing sinful or not sinful about that. It is a personal conviction.

 

The woman who thinks that celebrating CHristmas will send you to hell has really just taken a personal conviction (a rib issue) and turned it into a spine issue.

 

HTH

Edited December 16, 2011 by Heather in NC

[Spy Car]

Here is all of James 2 in the King James. I am surprised at the obvious bias inthe NIV translation.

 

 

James 2

 

My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

 

For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

 

And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

 

Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

 

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

 

But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

 

Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

 

If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

 

But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

 

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

 

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

 

For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

 

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

 

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

 

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

 

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

 

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Xuzi]

So according to the poll there are 23 LDS people on this board ;)

 

The LDS belief as many people know is that faith without works is dead. That is why it is so important to have a body - you can't actually DO anything without one. You have to prove your faith by backing it up with action. It is not enough to believe that we should be kind to other's -we have to ACT kind not just agree with it KWIM.

 

Secondly we don't believe that after you die that is it -game over. We believe in progression after death - it is going to take a very long time - longer then this earth life to become perfect like God has asked us too.

 

I have a few friends who believe you just have to accept Jesus into your heart (whatever that means :confused:) and then you can pretty much still do what you want and gain salvation through God's mercy and grace.

 

If you love God then you should act like it and DO the things he has said to do.

 

Now in saying this we don't believe that we can save ourselves by merely doing good deeds. That is where God's grace comes into it. We believe we are saved "by God's grace after ALL we can do". So basically - we work as hard as we can doing the things God has asked of us (which will never be enough because we all fall short of perfection) and after that God makes up the rest through his grace and mercy. In the end God is the only one who can save us through his grace -BUT we need to do all we can do to show God we have faith in him.

 

In LDS culture Faith is an action word ;)

 

Another LDS person jumping in here. I want to clarify that that verse does NOT mean that there's some invisible threashold of Good Works we have to do to qualify for Grace. Grace is free and accessible to ANYONE, from the vilest human being you can imagine, to the saintliest saint. It means that "after all we can do" it's God's Grace that saves us, or, we can do everything we can, and it will still be woefully short, so His Grace is always, and will always, be necessary, no matter how much good we do.

 

Or to put it another way "It is by God we are Saved, after all the medical intervention we can do". We can take pills, go to hospitals, have surgeries, etc., and I believe He would want me to, but the ultimate Power that heals us from succumbing to illness is God. Infact, there wouldn't even be those life-saving pills or surgeries or whathaveyou, if it weren't for His Blessing in giving man wisdom and knowledge to know how to invent that stuff, just as my "works", meager as they often are, would be much more difficult to accomplish on my own without the help of the Holy Spirit working within me.

 

I see Faith and Works as being two sides of the same coin. I can say I love my husband until I'm blue in the face, but if I consistantly ignore him and give greater favor to other people and things in my life, I doubt anybody would believe my claim. It's my belief that it's the same when it comes to Christ. When you have Faith, just as when you have love for a fellow human being, that love can't NOT influence the choices you make and the things you do. Just as my love for my children and my husband influences so many of my day-to-day choices, so too does my love and faith in God.

[ma23peas]

But what about where it also clearly states that faith without works is dead? James 2: 14.26 clearly states just how meaningless faith is without works.

 

At least that's my $0.2 ;)

 

Anyone can take a scripture and infer a different perspective, that is what I mean by a living Bible....I never said that works were not valuable but works without faith will not secure salvation.

The thief on the cross was saved, his works did not go against him. In the same light a self proclaimed believer whose life does not reflect the fruits of the spirit and/or their works speak against the spirit (habitual sin without remorse or desire for God to lead them and submit to His authority) will be found wanting...only God knows if they were sincere believers. God knows we are imperfect but we must accept it as well and desire to be transformed by the Holy spirit.

[Lovedtodeath]

Yes! No "other" option. I know it's hard to post a poll without an "other" option, but I just HAD to. I really want to know what everyone thinks about this subject: if what you think/believe is more significant or what you do/participate in is more significant to salvation. Of course both are important and present in the Christian life, well hopefully, but what is the catalyst, what distinguishes a person from being either saved or not saved?

The Spirit.

 

Romans 8:8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Carmen, a slave of Christ.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[Colleen in NS]

Also, is it dangerous for society or for Christian communities to have a "faith alone" "grace alone" stance on salvation? If so, have you seen the dangers of this view play out before your very eyes in your Christian community?

 

When I was a teen, my family was involved in a "prayer community," as was another particular family. One day, my mother informed me that if the father of that family ever came knocking on our door, I was not to let him in or speak to him under any circumstances. He recently had been arrested for molesting his daughter (who was my friend), and was living in some sort of halfway house near our house. It boggled my mind to hear this info. because the family had been a part of the community for years (nevermind how sickened I was for my friend!).

 

I don't think the "faith alone" or "grace alone" stance is an excuse for allowing criminal behaviour in a Christian community. But I also don't think it's an excuse to allow non-criminal but relationship-damaging behaviour nonetheless to go on, either. I've seen the "grace alone" mentality played out as manipulation meant to make other people believe they couldn't ever question the person's questionable behaviour that was affecting the community. Because, you know, they are "covered by grace," and they emphatically let questioners know that. I guess it's so they don't have to take responsibility for their questionable behaviour.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[justamouse]

Go Bill. Perfect verses.

[Lovedtodeath]

what is the catalyst, what distinguishes a person from being either saved or not saved?

 

The guarantee of that salvation is the mark of the Spirit:

you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.-- Ephesians 1:14 compare 2 Corinthians 5:5

 

In Romans 8 One must have the Spirit of God/Christ and walk in that Spirit or one is not saved.

 

 

10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

And the fruit of the Spirit are things that the Spirit causes us to have, and by their fruits you will know them. The scripture does not say to work on these things. On the contrary these things are fruit, and the works of the flesh are opposed to this fruit. Galatians 5:22-23

 

 

So we see that simply saying that we believe or thinking we are saved is not enough. Our baptism symbolizes the death of our former life. Romans 6:4; John 3:5 (I am sure there are more that are appropriate)

We are to pick up our torture stake and continually follow him. Christ if our life. Phil. 1:21 I cannot do anything on my own. I cannot lean on my own understanding, or those of any man. Psalm 146:3; Jeremiah 10:23; Proverbs 3:5,6

 

 

How do we follow Christ? Letting Him teach us and lead us in everything with the Spirit. 1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Carmen, a slave of Christ.

[8circles]

The Spirit.

 

Romans 8:8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Carmen, a slave of Christ.

 

Carmen, you rock.

[justamouse]

Oh yes!!! Discuss, discuss... :D

 

Also, is it dangerous for society or for Christian communities to have a "faith alone" "grace alone" stance on salvation? If so, have you seen the dangers of this view play out before your very eyes in your Christian community?

 

I just want to say again, stupid poll :banghead: - it did not accomplish what I wanted it to! Yet...there's still hope, the thread is not dead yet.

 

I do think that one without the other is lopsided. You can't walk on one leg. One oar in the water spins you in circles.

 

Ora et Labora.

[Lovedtodeath]

James 2:20-24

You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,â€[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Romans 3:27- 31

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

 

It is helpful to look at the entire passage of James, not just the one sentence. Scripture is interpreted in the light of other scripture.

The commonality of the two passages in James and Romans is that it has to do with works that are ACCOMPLISHED THROUGH AND PRECEDED BY FAITH. It was faith that Abraham demonstrated by believing and following God. That was the “work†Abraham did: he believed and followed in what God had instructed him.

Paul addresses this, too. We do not need the “ works†of the Law (the Torah) to be justified or saved. We have someone who has fulfilled that old law for us. We are saved by faith in Jesus. Faith in Jesus only.

Further, people get this “faith without works is dead†passage confused. It isn’t a HAVE TO, it is a WANT TO. When we recognize the huge gift of salvation and are sanctified through Christ on a daily basis then our RESPONSE, like Abraham's (to believe and follow) are the good deeds that we do. We are called to care for the orphan, the widow, and those in need, but those particular works don’t save us, the faith that precedes them saves us.

:iagree:Romans 4: 1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.†4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,

AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.

8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.â€

9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.†10How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

[Heidi]

Yes! No "other" option. I know it's hard to post a poll without an "other" option, but I just HAD to. I really want to know what everyone thinks about this subject: if what you think/believe is more significant or what you do/participate in is more significant to salvation. Of course both are important and present in the Christian life, well hopefully, but what is the catalyst, what distinguishes a person from being either saved or not saved?

 

I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and I believe you have to have both. I believe the catalyst to being saved, to answer this specific question, would be faith in Jesus Christ and repentance. I believe "having faith" encompasses repentance.

 

To me, "having faith in Jesus Christ" is NOT the same as thinking in your head that you believe in Jesus, and feeling affection for Him in your heart. I think this definition of faith is shallow and has no saving power whatsoever.

 

I also believe that going through the motions of one that believes in Christ without conviction in your heart is just as shallow and likewise has no saving power.

 

Faith is action. If I have faith in Jesus Christ I am repentant, I am dedicated to keeping His commandments, and I am actively trying to be like Him in all I say, do, and think. I mess up constantly, so I repent daily and renew my promise weekly to keep His commandments and always remember Him. Because I have made this covenant (through baptism) with Him and I actively have faith in Him (which encompasses repentance), I have His promise that I am saved.

[3Blessings]

Lest there be some confusion, I am not saying that works are not needed. Jesus, too, says that any branch not bearing fruit will be cut off.

 

I believe that the James and the Romans passage should be seen TOGETHER, not separately, for a full picture of salvation in Christ. It isn't just one way or the other. To believers, that is the dynamic and rich nature of scripture. We are to work AND rest in our faith. It is for nothing without both.

 

To the op, I pray that you find some comfort in your concerns by fellowship with other believers. Maybe you have a pastor or elder that you can talk to?

[Tree House Academy]

I didn't read the other replies, so I apologize in advance if this is redundant.

 

I believe that the one way to the Father is through faith and belief in Jesus Christ. To believe that he died on a cross for our sins, and that he rose again and ascended into heaven.

 

However, it doesn't stop with the confession of faith. Once you believe in Jesus and accept him as your savior...they Holy Spirit comes to live in you and because of His holy spirit, you repent of your sins and turn from them. You begin to CHOOSE to live a life that is pleasing to the Lord. So, while salvation is based upon simply believing, being a Christian goes far beyond that.

[aggieamy]

Another Catholic unable to answer so I'll just add my own write in answer - BOTH. :001_smile:

[Avila]

Anyone can take a scripture and infer a different perspective, that is what I mean by a living Bible....I never said that works were not valuable but works without faith will not secure salvation.

The thief on the cross was saved, his works did not go against him. In the same light a self proclaimed believer whose life does not reflect the fruits of the spirit and/or their works speak against the spirit (habitual sin without remorse or desire for God to lead them and submit to His authority) will be found wanting...only God knows if they were sincere believers. God knows we are imperfect but we must accept it as well and desire to be transformed by the Holy spirit.

 

Just to clarify, nobody I know of is saying that works alone produces salvation. Just wanted to make that clear.

 

I see it like this: I am in New York and want to go to California, but I have no car and no money and no way to make this happen on my own. God, in his mercy and goodness, chooses to give me a ticket to California. Now I have to take a step out in faith and get on that bus. If I don't take that leap of faith, no matter what I believe about that ticket, I will still be in New York. After I get on the bus, I have to stay on the bus or I won't get to California. If I choose to get off the bus, it would be my choice, my rejecting that free gift. But I would still be stuck in the place I got off the bus. The ticket would still be good. California would still be there, but I am no longer going if I am not on the bus. So I have to stay in the grace of God and on that bus until I reach my destination. I have to endure to the end to be saved (Mat. 10:22). There is no time in there where God withdraws that gift or that ticket, but at any time, I can choose to reject his grace and reject his gift of salvation. If I do so, I will not be saved. I am not meriting my own salvation, but I can merit my demise by choosing to reject God and choosing not to follow him.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Asenik

[ma23peas]

A nice site if you have the time to read it from many of the original translations

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Glossary/Word_of_the_Week/Archived/Emet/emet.html

 

Enjoy!

[Heidi]

The guarantee of that salvation is the mark of the Spirit:

you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.-- Ephesians 1:14 compare 2 Corinthians 5:5

 

In Romans 8 One must have the Spirit of God/Christ and walk in that Spirit or one is not saved.

 

 

10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

And the fruit of the Spirit are things that the Spirit causes us to have, and by their fruits you will know them. The scripture does not say to work on these things. On the contrary these things are fruit, and the works of the flesh are opposed to this fruit. Galatians 5:22-23

 

 

So we see that simply saying that we believe or thinking we are saved is not enough. Our baptism symbolizes the death of our former life. Romans 6:4; John 3:5 (I am sure there are more that are appropriate)

We are to pick up our torture stake and continually follow him. Christ if our life. Phil. 1:21 I cannot do anything on my own. I cannot lean on my own understanding, or those of any man. Psalm 146:3; Jeremiah 10:23; Proverbs 3:5,6

 

 

How do we follow Christ? Letting Him teach us and lead us in everything with the Spirit. 1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Carmen, a slave of Christ.

 

Just to clarify out of curiosity, how do you receive the Spirit? Does God choose to give the spirit to chosen ones for some unknown reason? Or do you only receive the Spirit if you truly believe? What is the reason one recieves the Spirit?

 

I also believe that if you have faith in Jesus Christ (as defined in my previous post), you are granted His Spirit to always be with you. However, it is a result of faith and repentance.

[Lovedtodeath]

I believe the catalyst to being saved, to answer this specific question, would be faith in Jesus Christ and repentance. I believe "having faith" encompasses repentance.

 

To me, "having faith in Jesus Christ" is NOT the same as thinking in your head that you believe in Jesus, and feeling affection for Him in your heart. I think this definition of faith is shallow and has no saving power whatsoever.

:iagree:

 

I didn't read the other replies, so I apologize in advance if this is redundant.

 

I believe that the one way to the Father is through faith and belief in Jesus Christ. To believe that he died on a cross for our sins, and that he rose again and ascended into heaven.

 

However, it doesn't stop with the confession of faith. Once you believe in Jesus and accept him as your savior...they Holy Spirit comes to live in you and because of His holy spirit,

:iagree:You are transformed, being made new each day. Colossians 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.Titus 3: 3For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

 

Just to clarify out of curiosity, how do you receive the Spirit? Does God choose to give the spirit to chosen ones for some unknown reason? Or do you only receive the Spirit if you truly believe? What is the reason one recieves the Spirit?

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[f] 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

 

John 4:1010 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

 

see also John 3:14,15; 7:37-39,

 

John 8:24, 1 John 5:1; 1 Peter 3:15 The conversation with the samaritan woman, 1 Tim. 2:5 along with these last 3 verses tell me that it is very important to understand the meaning of the words Christ and Lord and know that Jesus is unique in this position.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Lovedtodeath
forgot the I agree smileys. I agree. lol

[Lovedtodeath]

Just to clarify out of curiosity, how do you receive the Spirit? Does God choose to give the spirit to chosen ones for some unknown reason? Or do you only receive the Spirit if you truly believe? What is the reason one recieves the Spirit?

I personally received the Holy Spirit when I realized that men said that they communicated spiritual food from God, and thus the men were taking Christ's role as mediator. I immediately accepted Christ as my one and only mediator and trusted Him, not just to save me, but with everything. My heart began to sing. My life changed. I trusted Him with everything. And I still do.

 

1 Timothy 2:5, 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Proverbs 3:5,6

 

5Trust in the LORD with all your heart

And do not lean on your own understanding.

6In all your ways acknowledge Him,

And He will make your paths straight.

[JenniferB]

Just to clarify out of curiosity, how do you receive the Spirit?

 

I like this question. It's a good question.

[Paintedlady]

I'm Reformed. I didn't answer your poll because both options put man in the driver's seat. This is my viewpoint.

 

Bolded emphasis my own. We are passive...UNTIL

 

Westminster Confession of Faith X, 1,2

 

All those whom God has predestined to life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving to them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being made alive and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.

 

:iagree: Exactly my view as well, and I also didn't answer the poll.

[Lovedtodeath]

I like this question. It's a good question.

Yes it is. The whole thread is a good question.:)

 

Each and every day I am obviously filled with the Spirit and led by the Spirit when I submit to Him and I pray, talk about Christ, read scriptures, etc. There have been some days when I miss Him... and I grieve because I don't feel His presence. This is when I am doing something/ not doing something and His absence is teaching me.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[Avila]

I like this question. It's a good question.

 

Catholics believe we receive the Holy Spirit at Confirmation. The Sacrament of Confirmation "gives the Holy Spirit in order to root us more deeply in the divine filiation, incorporate us more firmly into Christ, strengthen our bond with the Church, associate us more closely with her mission, and help us bear witness to the Christian faith in words accompanied by deeds (CCC 1316). We are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit at Confirmation.

[enviromommy]

 

The Jews have a much better, much more authentic encompassing cultural theology.

 

Thank you! :001_smile:

[ma23peas]

Just to clarify, nobody I know of is saying that works alone produces salvation. Just wanted to make that clear.

 

I see it like this: I am in New York and want to go to California, but I have no car and no money and no way to make this happen on my own. God, in his mercy and goodness, chooses to give me a ticket to California. Now I have to take a step out in faith and get on that bus. If I don't take that leap of faith, no matter what I believe about that ticket, I will still be in New York. After I get on the bus, I have to stay on the bus or I won't get to California. If I choose to get off the bus, it would be my choice, my rejecting that free gift. But I would still be stuck in the place I got off the bus. The ticket would still be good. California would still be there, but I am no longer going if I am not on the bus. So I have to stay in the grace of God and on that bus until I reach my destination. I have to endure to the end to be saved (Mat. 10:22). There is no time in there where God withdraws that gift or that ticket, but at any time, I can choose to reject his grace and reject his gift of salvation. If I do so, I will not be saved. I am not meriting my own salvation, but I can merit my demise by choosing to reject God and choosing not to follow him.

 

This is where our theological roads diverge...i do not believe in loss of salvation, once saved always saved...that whoever believes will be saved, it does not say that man will jump off the faith train, it does however state that when you see a brother falling in his works, that you are commanded to help him turn his eyes back to God's path. I believe that man who has accepted the gift of grace by faith never leaves the bus but often may close their eyes or go to the back of the bus to avoid following God's plan for them, but He never forsakes them or leaves. You look at someone like Judas, one would assume that He must have been a believer, but he was not in my interpretation, in yours he simply got off he bus possibly...I just do not believe as you do.

[ma23peas]

Yes it is. The whole thread is a good question.:)

 

Each and every day I am obviously filled with the Spirit and led by the Spirit when I submit to Him and I pray, talk about Christ, read scriptures, etc. There have been some days when I miss Him... and I grieve because I don't feel His presence. This is when I am doing something/ not doing something and His absence is teaching me.

 

Lovely!

[Avila]

This is where our theological roads diverge...i do not believe in loss of salvation, once saved always saved...that whoever believes will be saved, it does not say that man will jump off the faith train, it does however state that when you see a brother falling in his works, that you are commanded to help him turn his eyes back to God's path. I believe that man who has accepted the gift of grace by faith never leaves the bus but often may close their eyes or go to the back of the bus to avoid following God's plan for them, but He never forsakes them or leaves. You look at someone like Judas, one would assume that He must have been a believer, but he was not in my interpretation, in yours he simply got off he bus possibly...I just do not believe as you do.

 

So if someone who appeared to be a believer, did all the things you see believers doing, professed to be a believer, suddenly turned away from God and started calling himself an atheist, what would you say happened?

 

Would you say he was never a believer in the first place, even though he thought he was and the people around him all thought he was?

 

This is where I get confused on this issue and don't get the logic behind it. We see people all the time who at one time were professed Christian and are no longer. What explains that, in your interpretation? I am honestly curious and have never had it explained, except to say that the person was deceived and was never really a Christian. But since he thought he was, then how would anyone have the assurance that someday they too might find out that they were not really a Christian either? Because until they die still professing and believing, isn't there always that chance that they too will turn away and turn out to never have really believed either?

[JenniferB]

Several responded with statements that salvation is a *free* gift. Where does this idea of a *free* gift come from? When I read the Gospels it seems like its not free, but just the opposite, it costs us everything.

Matthew Ch.16:24-27 Whoever loses his life for my sake, take up your cross, rewarded for your works, etc...

[Avila]

Several responded with statements that salvation is a *free* gift. Where does this idea of a *free* gift come from? When I read the Gospels it seems like its not free, but just the opposite, it costs us everything.

Matthew Ch.16:24-27 Whoever loses his life for my sake, take up your cross, rewarded for your works, etc...

 

Again, just my opinion. The gift is free. We can't earn it or deserve it. But responding to that gift is, like you said, very costly. Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man (CCC 162), but acting on that faith and using it to follow Christ is more than just believing. We are sacrificing ourselves to follow him and be disciples.

[Lovedtodeath]

But since he thought he was, then how would anyone have the assurance that someday they too might find out that they were not really a Christian either?

This is a very deep subject that is, for me, an unspoken understanding that I cannot put into words. Many people have debated about the once saved always saved doctrine. I do think that it can be dangerous. I know people who think that they were saved due to some spiritual experience so they therefore don't have to worry, even as they turn their back on God's word and don't even believe in Him at all (agnostic).

 

This scripture comes to mind:

 

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

I also found that a spiritual experience does not mean one is saved. Acts chapter 10 is an example of a man who was given a vision by God. He was being drawn, but yet still was not saved.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[Spy Car]

Wouldn't we live in a far better world if people felt they'd be judged by the rightness (or wrongness) of their actions, rather than by how fervently they believe?

 

It would certainly appear to be a more just situation, no?

 

 

Bill

[mommyrooch]

Just to clarify, nobody I know of is saying that works alone produces salvation. Just wanted to make that clear.

 

Exactly!! I think it was my post that she quoted. I never said that works alone produces salvation. Quite the opposite in fact. I said that it WAS faith that produced salvation. I just believe (as others have stated as well) that the kind of faith that is required for salvation is a faith that is inclusive of works. Works alone are not enough. On the other hand though, a faith void of works is not a true biblical faith as described by Christ. It is THAT kind of faith that is required for salvation.

 

I think the problem often lies with how we as Christians define faith. I think that it's important to look at the whole picture when trying to figure out what a Christ like faith looks like or resembles. The question is not "Are we saved by faith or by works?" The question should be "If we agree that we are saved by faith alone, how does God define "faith?" We must first understand Christ's definition of "faith" before we can hope to achieve it.

 

I agree 100% that it is faith and faith alone that "saves" us. My stand on the issue arises when people claim to be Christians yet have no outward reflection of that transformation. Being saved produces a HUGE transformation in the lives and hearts of Christ's children. If one truly has the kind of faith Jesus describes and explains is required for salvation then they will have an outward transformation that is just as consuming and powerful as the inward transformation. That outward transformation will manifest itself as a life lived for Christ. If we accept that as true, then we must accept that a life lived for Christ requires action. He makes that clear over and over again. As people saved by faith our lives will be dedicated to doing HIS works which include feeding the poor, clothing the naked, helping the widows and the orphans, etc. etc... Heck, not only is it recorded what God's works look like, we have a human representation of it. All we have to do is examine and study what kind of life Christ was living while on this earth. God has already given us our answer to what a biblical faith looks like. It was Christ and the life he lived. While here, Jesus was not just praying and worshiping God. His faith in his father was brought to life by not only his words but by his actions.

[Avila]

This is a very deep subject that is, for me, an unspoken understanding that I cannot put into words. Many people have debated about the once saved always saved doctrine. I do think that it can be dangerous. I know people who think that they were saved so they therefore don't have to worry, even as they turn their back on God's word and don't even believe in Him at all (agnostic).

 

This scripture comes to mind:

 

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

Thanks, Carmen. But I think maybe this is still the part I don't understand. The sheep listen to his voice and they follow him. No one snatches them, but what happens if they are no longer following the shepherd of their own accord? Nothing from the outside can change their salvation, but what about from the inside? This is where the whole idea loses me, I think. Because I do believe in free will, and if I have the free will to choose God, then I should also have the free will to be able to walk away from him. Do people who believe in once saved, always saved not believe in free will? Or how does that work?

 

I am fascinated by this conversation, and I do appreciate the different POVs. Maybe especially the different ones. ;)

[Avila]

Wouldn't we live in a far better world if people felt they'd be judged by the rightness (or wrongness) of their actions, rather than by how fervently they believe?

 

It would certainly appear to be a more just situation, no?

 

 

Bill

 

Justice and mercy, Bill. It is always a fine line.

[Lovedtodeath]

Wouldn't we live in a far better world if people felt they'd be judged by the rightness (or wrongness) of their actions, rather than by how fervently they believe?

 

It would certainly appear to be a more just situation, no?

 

 

Bill

Um, no. One sign of a cult is that they believe in a works based salvation.

[Heidi]

Several responded with statements that salvation is a *free* gift. Where does this idea of a *free* gift come from? When I read the Gospels it seems like its not free, but just the opposite, it costs us everything.

Matthew Ch.16:24-27 Whoever loses his life for my sake, take up your cross, rewarded for your works, etc...

 

I think "free gift" means that all are invited to come unto Christ and be saved, not that it doesn't require any effort on our part. Like you said, salvation costs us everything.

 

"..for he loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life that he may draw all men unto him. Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation.

"..he hath given it free for all men; and hath commanded his people that they should persuade all men to repentance.

"..all men are priviledged the one like unto the other, and none are forbidden.

"...and he inviteth all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." 2 Nephi 26:24,27,28,33 from The Book of Mormon: Another testament of Jesus Christ.

[Lovedtodeath]

I think the problem often lies with how we as Christians define faith. I think that it's important to look at the whole picture when trying to figure out what a Christ like faith looks like or resembles. The question is not "Are we saved by faith or by works?" The question should be "If we agree that we are saved by faith alone, how does God define "faith?" We must first understand Christ's definition of "faith" before we can hope to achieve it.

:iagree:Preach it sister!

I agree 100% that it is faith and faith alone that "saves" us. My stand on the issue arises when people claim to be Christians yet have no outward reflection of that transformation. Being saved produces a HUGE transformation in the lives and hearts of Christ's children. If one truly has the kind of faith Jesus describes and explains is required for salvation then they will have an outward transformation that is just as consuming and powerful as the inward transformation. That outward transformation will manifest itself as a life lived for Christ.

:iagree:I am not so sure that I agree with the rest, because it makes me feel the need to clarify that I can try to imitate Christ and give to the poor and still not be saved.

 

Also, when Christ speaks of fruit, it is about the inner person, not about works. kwim? Splitting hairs...

 

Thanks, Carmen. But I think maybe this is still the part I don't understand. The sheep listen to his voice and they follow him. No one snatches them, but what happens if they are no longer following the shepherd of their own accord? Nothing from the outside can change their salvation, but what about from the inside? This is where the whole idea loses me, I think. Because I do believe in free will, and if I have the free will to choose God, then I should also have the free will to be able to walk away from him. Do people who believe in once saved, always saved not believe in free will? Or how does that work?

:iagree:Actually, I agree with you. ;) Edited December 16, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[Spy Car]

Justice and mercy, Bill. It is always a fine line.

 

Sure. But isn't it advantageous for us as a society (and that extends globally to mankind in general) that good and decent behavior towards our fellow man would be something those who believe in a creator-judge would be rewarded for (understanding no one is "perfect") and that people who behave poorly towards ones fellows (while perhaps convinced of his or her deep convictions of faith) would be found wanting for not behaving well?

 

James gets that. Paul IMO set Christianity off on the wrong path.

 

Bill

[Heidi]

Wouldn't we live in a far better world if people felt they'd be judged by the rightness (or wrongness) of their actions, rather than by how fervently they believe?

 

It would certainly appear to be a more just situation, no?

 

 

Bill

 

Yes, it would be a better world if more people felt they would be judged by their actions and feel accountable to a greater Being than themselves. God will judge our hearts and our works.

 

"Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

"For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Eccl.12: 13-14.

[JenniferB]

Wouldn't we live in a far better world if people felt they'd be judged by the rightness (or wrongness) of their actions, rather than by how fervently they believe?

 

It would certainly appear to be a more just situation, no?

 

 

Bill

 

I would rather live in a community where people practiced good works.

[Lovedtodeath]

Sure. But isn't it advantageous for us as a society (and that extends globally to mankind in general) that good and decent behavior towards our fellow man would be something those who believe in a creator-judge would be rewarded for (understanding no one is "perfect") and that people who behave poorly towards ones fellows (while perhaps convinced of his or her deep convictions of faith) would be found wanting for not behaving well?

 

James gets that. Paul IMO set Christianity off on the wrong path.

 

Bill

People who read scriptures and only see what they want to see set Christianity off on the wrong path. Those who have Christ within them automatically imitate His behavior and follow His teachings. Colossians 1:27; Galatians 5:22,23; Matthew 7:15-23; Matthew 25:35; Luke 3:11;

 

1 John 3:17,18 But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.