Khan Academy in Los Altos

[Roadrunner]

http://www.mercurynews.com/peninsula-news/ci_19454417

 

So Los Altos schools apparently now rely on Khan Academy for grades 5-8 and report good results. I don't know what I am missing here, but I am not impressed with Khan Academy. I think it's a wonderful place to go for extra, but I just don't see the depth in this program that we find in SM (that's the only one I have used). I wouldn't be happy if this was the primary program in my kids' school. Am I missing something? Would you be happy with this change?

[wapiti]

It depends on what it was replacing. It's quite possible - likely, even - that Khan Academy is superior to whatever they were using before :tongue_smilie:. Even if they were using SM before, there may have been issues with the teaching, which a curriculum cannot always control for (e.g., a lack of understanding on the part of teachers; SM was tried and unfortunately nixed in my district for this reason).

 

On the plus side, my understanding is that in a classroom setting, Khan allows for differentiation in a way that even ability grouping does not. There are advantages and disadvantages to everything, particularly in a PS setting.

[TranquilMind]

http://www.mercurynews.com/peninsula-news/ci_19454417

 

So Los Altos schools apparently now rely on Khan Academy for grades 5-8 and report good results. I don't know what I am missing here, but I am not impressed with Khan Academy. I think it's a wonderful place to go for extra, but I just don't see the depth in this program that we find in SM (that's the only one I have used). I wouldn't be happy if this was the primary program in my kids' school. Am I missing something? Would you be happy with this change?

Wow. Why go to school just to do an online program you can do at home?

[wapiti]

Wow. Why go to school just to do an online program you can do at home?

 

I don't know if this is the same district as the one in the TV segment I saw not long ago, but in the TV segment, the teachers liked it because they had more one-on-one time with the kids to go over things in class. In other words, I don't believe the plan is quite the same as simply taking an on-line class (though I would not be surprised if it turned out that there were some teachers who treated it as such). Advantages, disadvantages...

[Roadrunner]

I get it, but my problem is Khan Academy appears to me largely procedural and an inch deep. Again, I have a very limited experience with it. What I am trying to get to is with SM you start out with the simplest problem and the difficulty (depth) of the topic increases as you progress through the chapter and culminates in Challenges (IP books). Khan appears to be just the simple stuff. Again, I could be wrong here. Our school uses EnVision. It's a new thing and I do have some reservations about it. However, in my limited experience I will take EnVision over Khan any day. I will visit Khan for remedial work though.

I am not a teacher, yet I am having no difficulty grasping SM way of teaching. If you can't train a teacher how to do it, maybe he/she shouldn't be in the classroom? O.K., maybe a little harsh, but....

I am using SM as an example, since this is the only program we used at home.

[wapiti]

I get it, but my problem is Khan Academy appears to me largely procedural and an inch deep.

 

I don't have much experience with it either. I'd have to guess that it's probably heavier on procedure than on concept, but I don't really know. However, my gut guess is that I'd probably choose Khan over something fuzzy like Everyday Math.

 

What I am trying to get to is with SM you start out with the simplest problem and the difficulty (depth) of the topic increases as you progress through the chapter and culminates in Challenges (IP books). Khan appears to be just the simple stuff.

 

I haven't looked at it in a very long time, since they added exercises.

 

I am not a teacher, yet I am having no difficulty grasping SM way of teaching. If you can't train a teacher how to do it, maybe he/she shouldn't be in the classroom? O.K., maybe a little harsh, but....

 

No, I don't think that's being harsh. Our charter school is in the process of choosing some elementary math curricula (and believe me, I'm making my voice heard, LOL), and it has come to light that not all the teachers have a sufficient understanding of math for teaching certain conceptual programs. It's a long story, but I've been feeling bitter about it. I don't understand why they don't understand, but I'm trying to accept that their brains work differently, and I'd bet that many of those teachers had an elementary math education that was light on concepts or otherwise deficient. So, the cycle repeats itself. What I really don't understand is why they can't spend a little time learning the concepts now - there have been lots of moms on these boards who do just that.

 

The biggest problem I see for the school is choosing a curriculum when there is no such thing as one-size-fits-all - there will always be someone who gets the short end of the stick if there's only one curriculum. As a parent, there are certain short-ends-of-the-stick I can live with, and certain ones I can't.

 

If you're correct about Khan, that it's too procedural and not enough concept, it would be interesting if the concept side were beefed up.

[quark]

http://www.mercurynews.com/peninsula-news/ci_19454417

 

So Los Altos schools apparently now rely on Khan Academy for grades 5-8 and report good results. I don't know what I am missing here, but I am not impressed with Khan Academy. I think it's a wonderful place to go for extra, but I just don't see the depth in this program that we find in SM (that's the only one I have used). I wouldn't be happy if this was the primary program in my kids' school. Am I missing something? Would you be happy with this change?

 

A similar article I read a few months ago mentioned how teachers in Los Altos are able to differentiate for brighter students using Khan. The kids watch the videos and try the online problems at home. The teacher discusses the problems with them in school. For kids who like math, it reduces time spent on mundane, repetitive homework and allows more time for discussion.

 

A good idea I think. I don't believe it's the sole program used in class.

 

ETA: We use Khan randomly at home (at high school level). It's not as simple as I thought it would be. It's also not as challenging as AoPS of course (I should say my son just started with Geometry and hasn't encountered problems of AoPS' level of difficulty yet). So Los Altos may be on to something.

Edited December 3, 2011 by quark

[jenbrdsly]

As I recall, Los Altos and Menlo Park are both using SM at the elementary level. Palo Alto chose Every Day Math and there was a big uproar about it. Am I remembering this right?

We use to live in the Los Altos District. Every single school was scoring in the 90% or above.

[jennynd]

So... why the school need the teacher anymore?

So... why the school need the teacher anymore?

It is actually a very interesting approach to education. Ignore the particular benefits or philosophy of the Khan Academy lectures for the moment.

 

The idea is that instead of having the teacher deliver a canned lecture during class, and students doing homework at home, the situation is reversed. The kids can watch the canned lecture online at home, and do their problem sets in class, asking for help from the teacher when they get stuck or don't understand something, when they are actually working on the problems.

[Roadrunner]

Let's hope everybody gets individual attention and not just those struggling.

[jhschool]

Hi

 

We tried Khan for Algebra and it is great!

 

I have an engineering degree from MIT and

the way he explains it is the way I understand math.

 

Maybe it's good for some kids with a certain

kind of brain (not better, not worse, just different), but not for others.

DS loves it. His mathy friend loves it too. Other people

don't necessarily like it.

 

I think it's a matter of taste and style. We checked out

the online courses offered through the local high school (GenSys)

and the Algebra was terrible! (The material seemed artificially

presented, you had to drag and click the mouse to put

different parts of the quadratic equation together, kind of

like preschool "match the pieces"==it wasn't "mathy.")

 

Hopefully I am making at least a little sense. Khan is

straightforward and thorough. Gives the basics simply.

And they are solid basics.

 

That school is probably doing it so the teacher doesn't have to

teach the same material to everyone and they can each go at

their own pace? Who knows?

[Roadrunner]

Hi

 

We tried Khan for Algebra and it is great!

 

 

Hopefully I am making at least a little sense. Khan is

straightforward and thorough. Gives the basics simply.

And they are solid basics.

 

That school is probably doing it so the teacher doesn't have to

teach the same material to everyone and they can each go at

their own pace? Who knows?

 

I agree. I am a little bit worried that basics is all it does. Hopefully not.

[PhotoGal]

From what I've heard from parents in Palo Alto and Los Altos - the parents (or tutors or afterschool facilitators) are doing most of the teaching, anyway. The parents I spoke with said the kids come home with homework that is new material and the parents have to teach them everything.

 

Similarly, now the kids come home and watch the Kahn videos as homework, then they can ask the teacher the next day about anything they didn't understand. They are actually not taught at school. :confused:

 

Most kids in these cities are going to score well regardless of what the school does. The parents will sign them up for tutoring, etc. even if they are at grade level - so they can get ahead.

[crazyforlatin]

As I recall, Los Altos and Menlo Park are both using SM at the elementary level. Palo Alto chose Every Day Math and there was a big uproar about it. Am I remembering this right?

 

We use to live in the Los Altos District. Every single school was scoring in the 90% or above.

 

Yes, Palo Alto uses Everyday Math, and I think it's been about 2 years, but many parents wanted SM. It doesn't even matter what the schools use in Palo Alto since most parents living there are highly educated and probably supplement, hire tutors, or send the kids to tutoring services.

[kalanamak]

So... why the school need the teacher anymore?

 

The idea is to have the lecture an excellent, canned one that the student can go back through at his/her own pace until they "get" it, then have the teacher in the classroom be the tutor for working through problems and exercises, or going over small sticking points in more detail.

 

I've only used Khan for back up or intro, but have really appreciated the fact kiddo can view it 2 or 3 times, including once with me next to him pointing out important parts. But I'm sure I'm biased. I think most in-class lectures are less than stellar, and that one cannot expect every school to have excellent lecturers in every subject; and that poor lectures confuse or put people to sleep. I'd much rather learn from a book in quiet than sit in a class with a mediocre lecturer.

[Crimson Wife]

As I recall, Los Altos and Menlo Park are both using SM at the elementary level. Palo Alto chose Every Day Math and there was a big uproar about it. Am I remembering this right?

 

We use to live in the Los Altos District. Every single school was scoring in the 90% or above.

 

Both Los Altos' and Menlo Park's SARCs list Every Day Mathematics as the math curriculum being used at the elementary level. I don't know of any Bay Area public schools that use Singapore.

[PenKase]

FWIW-I am using Khan Academy with my 6th grader. This is our second year homeschooling and before that my dd was in public school since Pre-K. She was doing ok on math at school and only understood how to apply it using rote methods. I wanted her to learn how to think mathematically. Enter SM . It didn't really work for her as it made too many logical leaps for her to understand so we canned it and turned to Math Mammoth. MM worked well for a while but she was making waaaayyyy to many calculation errors. This year, factoring in that dd is a highly auditory learner, we turned to Khan Academy as a place holder until I could evaluate some other math programs.

 

Khan Academy has been a miracle worker. Since switching, dd expresses a love for math she's never admitted to before. She watches/listens to a video and does twenty problem sets for each video (self imposed). Her attention to detail has increased exponentially because she is motivated to get the problem sets right the first time. Otherwise, she knows she will be set back and will have to do more. Her calculation errors have almost vanished seemingly overnight. In my book, full focus and attention to detail doing twenty problems beats 30 or 40 problems done with inattention (as she'd been doing with MM before). She considers Khan a challenge and I was floored the other day when she told me that "math is a lot of fun now." For this child, nothing could have been sweeter sounding.

 

One thing I've come to realize is that I am ok with a broad sweep/introduction of math concepts. What's more important to me for dd is that she enjoy what was once laborious subject. She is steadily gaining confidence in her abilities and deems herself good at math now.....something she has never thought before. For a child with strong creative leanings, a healthy attitude towards math makes a big difference!

[EmilyK]

I'm something of a convert to Khan for afterschooling. Both of my kids like it so much more if I will do it with them -- in the sense of watching the video together, sitting there while they plug in answers. They don't like being sent off to work on it and can get quite frustrated that way. That said, it seems easier to face than a workbook, and keeps track of the student's progress easily. I think the feature of recommending review problems is good as well. I'm trying to have my older son do some every day, and I think it could be a great, easy way to afterschool math.

 

That said, my middle schooler's school was requiring Khan at the beginning of the school year and most of the kids really disliked it -- my son included. The pressure of your progress being reset when you make even a tiny error really overwhelmed some of the kids. I think the plan was to use it as described above -- for pre-algebra, let the lectures be the direct instruction in areas the kid didn't yet grasp, and to use class time to do one-on-one tutoring and troubleshooting, while other kids worked on their modules. The thought is that it got the teacher to focus on the issues the particular student has. This is a private middle school that gets kids with different math backgrounds so it could be a good way to get them all to the same level.

 

There was such an outcry from the other parents that it got tabled for now.

[kalanamak]

Basically the classroom has been turned into a tutoring session. Khan Academy has replaced the need to learn to read a textbook. Since the speed can't be increased in the video, those that would advance faster with a book are retarded.

 

But you can work ahead. They are not PAINFULLY slow, and he is a heck of a lot better than the lame-o algebra teacher I had in 8th grade. A bright kid can watch once. We are "working ahead", but kiddo has to watch 2-3 times AND get my instruction. However, compared to the local ps, we are a year ahead in math, at least.

 

Plus, the Academy is growing. They could have a "fast track", they could have a "slow track", a track for ESL students, a track for in trouble with the law and a stinky homelife track. Etc.

 

Personally, having been a "bright" kid in a decent but very lackluster school system (and there was even a teacher's college in town), I would have LOVED this.

 

In college you have a brief lecture, and then are sent home to chew through your text. The "tutoring sessions" (homework help) done in the evenings with grad students was where I REALLY got the teaching I needed.

 

And again, you cannot expect every dinky school to have a superb lecturer in American History (my high school did). Why not tape the best of the best and share it with the world?

I'd rather the classroom teacher go back to teaching, instead of presenting or tutoring.

 

Forgive my confusion, but what activities do you consider "teaching" that aren't presenting new materials or tutoring to verify that the students understand what was presented?

 

I don't expect superb lecturing in high school.

 

I wouldn't expect every single one of the hundreds of thousands of teachers (homeschooling parents included) to be superb lecturers, but because of newer technology, I certainly do expect superb lectures to be available at a very modest cost.

Edited December 5, 2011 by GGardner

[PhotoGal]

I guess I'm a little disturbed by the absence of hands-on, real-life manipulatives and discussion. Watching a video may work for some students, but not for others. Just like only reading a textbook might work for some, but not others. I wouldn't be happy if my child was in elementary school and the teacher just told them to read the textbook and let her know if they have any questions.

[jenbrdsly]

I guess I'm a little disturbed by the absence of hands-on, real-life manipulatives and discussion. Watching a video may work for some students, but not for others. Just like only reading a textbook might work for some, but not others. I wouldn't be happy if my child was in elementary school and the teacher just told them to read the textbook and let her know if they have any questions.

 

 

:iagree: I haven't seen Khan though, so I can't comment.

 

It was Menlo Park Academy that was using Singapore. Sorry for my confusion.

[Beth in SW WA]

:iagree: I haven't seen Khan though,

 

We need to fix that. :)

[Guest jmay]

I am a parent in Los Altos. My children are not at the schools that are using Khan Academy, but I am familiar with the program.

 

The primary math program in the school district is Envision Math, adopted two years ago for grades K-5. My understanding is that Khan Academy is currently only in use in 5th grade: after piloting in two classrooms in the district last year, they have expanded to include all the 5th grade classes. I don't believe that the Khan videos have replaced the entire programs, possibly they are only being used one or two days a week.

 

As far as I am aware, the Khan program has been well-received by the kids, parents, teachers & district administration.

 

Everyday Math has never been used in Los Altos (nor Singapore Math). Everyday Math was adopted last year in Palo Alto. Everyday Math is also used by the high-scoring Bullis Charter School in Los Altos - but heavily supplemented with additional materials by individual classroom teachers.

 

There is also a high level of at-home supplementation going on in Los Altos. Families using Khan at home, EPGY, Kumon, Singapore Math, etc.

 

It's probably impossible to separate the effects of curriculum vs teacher vs family here. Standardized test scores are the highest in the state.

Edited December 8, 2011 by jmay

[Beth in SW WA]

I am a parent in Los Altos.

 

Welcome, Jmay. Thanks for chiming in. :)

[Bang!Zoom!]

Here's a lecture on the Los Altos idea, I liked using Khan.

 

 

http://www.khanacademy.org/video/salman-khan-talk-at-ted-2011--from-ted-com?playlist=Khan+Academy-Related+Talks+and+Interviews

[momsquared]

The teachers in my school use it occasionally to supplement. It's great for skill isolation. I know for struggling learners it has been nice for teachers to use to help them get additional support as well. Sometimes hearing an explanation from a different person can click for a student. That is why reciprocal teaching and other methods can be so valuable.

 

I even recommend it to my students who are struggling with certain skills in math. They say it is nice to use when they have questions when they are at home and a teacher may it be able to return an email right away.

 

If this school is using it 100% it seems a little limiting, but again, who knows what was in place before.

[Roadrunner]

There is an interesting discussion on high school boards about teachers no longer teaching in the classroom. Just made me think of this thread.