Considering dropping the whole mess....

[Supertechmom]

Yep, I'm really hating homeschooling high school . For years I've waited to HOmeschool high school. It was supposed to be fun, interesting, getting to know the soon to be adult I've invested all this time in.

 

Instead, it's one continual did you get this done, where's this paper, where's this assignment.......nag nag nag. The idea to just drop everything is gaining quite a bit of ground in my mind. Doing classes to look good for college has taken over our whole mindset, not something we ever wanted.

 

 

So I asked the freshman what he would do if I said just do the things you would like to do. Don't worry about anything, about getting into MIT(his goal) just do want you want.

 

He thought it over and came back with this:

Continue the following:

Chang's chemistry with study for the AP test and the SAT subject test

NASA Inspire project and do all the challenges and the team contests

Latin 2 as he loves Latin

his bible book

Read the great books, read HOAW, but drop all the paper writing

Programming

Pre-cal

Stop testing/grades and just let him master the material and test with the major overall test in the spring

 

Pick up fun logic/puzzle stuff just to do

Build computer junk

 

Drop the following:

Spanish

Paper writing/English

Everything related to history and English but the readings

 

How could I do this and still give a competitive transcript for college? His writing stinks and does need work but I could let it revolve completely around science instead of writing in lit or history. But I have to show for the state that he had subjects in lit and composition. He does his math and science and latin without an issue but fights the writing assignments.

 

The thought of letting him unschool high school is really at the top of my mind but I'm stuck with the mindset of we have to show all these classes to get into college. But we are really hating the current set up. If he loves the subject, he'll do the work and do it well without any issues. So part of me feels he should do work he doesn't like. Then the other part of me says that's exactly why I despised high school and everything connected to it. I hated most of it and was bored to tears. I wanted the high school years to be full of delight and doing what they were interested in. But we're here now and the act of getting them into college is worrisome if we go off the typical tract. Any thoughts???

[regentrude]

He thought it over and came back with this:

Continue the following:

Chang's chemistry with study for the AP test and the SAT subject test

NASA Inspire project and do all the challenges and the team contests

Latin 2 as he loves Latin

his bible book

Read the great books, read HOAW, but drop all the paper writing

Programming

Pre-cal

Stop testing/grades and just let him master the material and test with the major overall test in the spring

 

 

 

The bolded is an excellent suggestion. It's what I do with my kids. One comprehensive semester exam in math. No need for daily grades. I give monthly tests in science.

 

Drop the following:

Spanish

Paper writing/English

Everything related to history and English but the readings

 

Does he need Spanish if he has Latin? Have you asked MIT? I think they only require two years of a language anyway.

 

With English, you have to put your foot down. Explain to him that there are requirements. He needs to be able to express himself in writing.

This said, I don't see why he should not be writing about scientific topics instead of historical ones.

 

Discuss the history requirement with him. How would he prefer to fulfill the requirement for your state (and the social science requirement for college admission)? Can you fold the history into his great Books study or just read history non-fiction books? Would he like to focus on history of science? Would he want to use TC lectures (audio or video)? Could he do a history of science related research project, give a presentation or make a video or a poster if he does not want to write?

 

the only issue I really see is that he does not want to write papers. He must. but I do not see why you should have to make him write on topics he is not interested in - my kids to their best writing on subjects they have chosen themselves.

 

ETA: One basic thought: does he hate being micromanaged? How much freedom does he have? There is a far gap between giving the student freedom and complete unschooling. My kids choose each day how they want to spend their time on which subject; I mandate a total amount of time that must be spent on school using "approved" resources (though they can negotiate if they have found educational sources other than what we had picked together). I just remind them when it gets too lopsided.

Could it be your DS reacts negatively to being told too much what to do when? Could you experiment with HIM choosing his schedule and not doing daily lesson plans and assignments?

Edited October 21, 2011 by regentrude

[EKS]

nm

Edited October 23, 2011 by EKS

[Mom22ns]

 

He thought it over and came back with this:

Continue the following:

Chang's chemistry with study for the AP test and the SAT subject test

NASA Inspire project and do all the challenges and the team contests

Latin 2 as he loves Latin

his bible book

Read the great books, read HOAW, but drop all the paper writing

Programming

Pre-cal

Stop testing/grades and just let him master the material and test with the major overall test in the spring

 

Pick up fun logic/puzzle stuff just to do

Build computer junk

 

 

I think he's close.

 

Drop the following:

Spanish

Paper writing/English

Everything related to history and English but the readings

 

 

I think if he loves Latin, one language should be enough. Double check that MIT accepts Latin and if so drop Spanish.

 

I think he could learn all the history he needs to by reading. Get him a spine and some appropriate historical fiction or literature from the time period and call it done. He is not interested in a history major. Let this be one of his lightest classes.

 

English can be "English Lit" this year. I would hesitate to let him do no writing because even and math and science guy headed to MIT will need to be able to put his thoughts into writing. You could cut it way back though at least for the year and let him focus on the reading and have him write one paper in each subject at different times in the year. Let the topics be things that interest him.

 

I'm still new at high school, but I don't see any need for it to be about busy work and tests. It should still be about learning. As long as he is learning and especially if he will prove that with some standardized tests once a year, I don't think you have a problem.

[Tullia]

Your son might benefit from advice from someone other than you on the writing. My dh is an engineer, and has to do a LOT of writing. We have been pleased to see that there are more English requirements today for STEM majors than when we were in college.

 

ETA: That was clumsily worded ...what I meant was that if he resists doing writing assignments for you having someone else tell him might get through. When my son was in high school a lot of what I told him didn't make it from his ears to his brain. I guess I've gotten a lot smarter in the past few years--he's more willing to listen now. ;)

Edited October 21, 2011 by Martha in NM
clarity

[Oakblossoms]

What are using for Writing? My guy is doing Oak Meadow. It is child led.

 

How about CC classes for English? He really does need to be able to write.

[Guest Mamalion]

I absolutely could have written this post. We had a delightful time homeschooling in the lower grades, (not unschooling, but heavily Lit based), and I was soooo frustrated when we got to high school, and now we had to march to a different drummer. One thing I have learned in this whole process, and it sounds like you are right there- the bucket of facts that they are 'supposed' to learn is mostly irrelevant to the skills they need to know to function in the grown up world. We need to teach them how to read well, write well, research well, and present things well. If they can do these skills, it doesn't matter what they do or don't know, they have the skills to fill in the gaps. We can never come close to knowing what set of facts they're going to need in their lives. We just need to teach them how to process the information when they need it.

 

So yes, your son needs writing. What about a less-intensive program like Wordsmith Craftsman, or one of Bravewriter's online classes? And by all means, give him more control over his choices. He'll be much more motivated if it was his choice to study the topic in the first place.

[Jenny in Florida]

Continue the following:

Chang's chemistry with study for the AP test and the SAT subject test

NASA Inspire project and do all the challenges and the team contests

Latin 2 as he loves Latin

his bible book

Read the great books, read HOAW, but drop all the paper writing

Programming

Pre-cal

Stop testing/grades and just let him master the material and test with the major overall test in the spring

 

Pick up fun logic/puzzle stuff just to do

Build computer junk

 

 

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I did just drop a lot of stuff. And my kid is not willing to suggest doing anywhere near as much as yours did.

 

Of course, this one is also not aiming at a selective school.

 

But, yes, the constant nagging and negotiating got to me, too. And I couldn't help being aware that mine didn't seem to be learning much of anything from any of the stuff I had to force him to do.

 

For us, the final straw was the realization that he's really serious about doing community college at 16 and then transferring somewhere in-state. And, realistically, if that's his plan, then not much of anything we do for the next couple of years "matters" in terms of college admission. Yes, I still have to make sure he can write and do enough math to be successful in college. But all of my worry about creating that impressive, competitive transcript is pretty much useless under those circumstances.

 

Of course I don't want him to close any doors with a decision made at the age of 13. So, I'm keeping records of everything he does and will be prepared to assemble the nicest transcript I can if the need arises. But, honestly, he's a year ahead of his age peers, anyway. So, we have some time to play with, if need be.

 

Here's what we've agreed to keep for the rest of this year:

 

- The Art of Problem Solving text and unit study on crytology.

- The Greek-mythology-themed English.

- The FLVS Spanish class.

- Choir and voice lessons, for which I had planned to give him a partial credit.

- Lego robotics team.

 

What we're dropping:

 

- History

- Science

- Geography

- World Religions

 

I had already turned over lots of control regarding those four subjects to him, but as of the beginning of this week, I have stopped requiring anything.

 

Instead, I want to have the time and freedom to really take advantage of the resources and opportunities in our community. I want to be able to take the morning off to go to a classical music concert or the art museum or the cool exhibit about communist-era art and not worry about the boxes on my lesson plans that aren't being checked off while we're out learning.

 

We've taken to calling Spanish, English and math his "core" subjects. Once he's done with those for the day, he's free to do his own thing. The only rules are that he has to be doing something "productive" (which can be reading or drawing a picture of the costume he wants to make for the Renaissance faire or watching a documentary or whatever) and that he may not turn on the TV for fluff or play computer games until after 4:00.

 

So far, he's spending most of his post-core subject time researching Renaissance clothing and weapons in preparation for making that costume. He's making noises about wanting to join the Society for Creative Anachronism, too.

 

I don't really know how this will play out for us. We've agreed to give it a try until the end of the semester and then decide whether to keep going for the second half of the year. I know it's not "classical," but it just might turn out to be a better path for this particular kid.

 

So, compared to mine, yours would be carrying an impressive academic load!

[Corraleno]

The thought of letting him unschool high school is really at the top of my mind but I'm stuck with the mindset of we have to show all these classes to get into college. But we are really hating the current set up. If he loves the subject, he'll do the work and do it well without any issues. So part of me feels he should do work he doesn't like. Then the other part of me says that's exactly why I despised high school and everything connected to it. I hated most of it and was bored to tears. I wanted the high school years to be full of delight and doing what they were interested in. But we're here now and the act of getting them into college is worrisome if we go off the typical tract. Any thoughts???

Tailoring a student's education to his interests doesn't have to equal a lightweight, noncompetetive transcript! Just because the standard Social Studies credits at the local PS may be World History, US History, and Geography (or whatever), that doesn't mean that your son can't have credits like History of Science, or History of Weapons & Warfare, or something closer to his interests. Even something like Media and Technology in American Culture can count as a Social Studies credit. English credits don't have to be English 1, 2, 3, (or American Lit, Brit Lit, etc.) either, they can be things like The Hero Quest in World Literature, or Utopia & Dystopia in Science Fiction, or any other topic of your son's interest. In fact, I looked at the course offerings at several of the top private schools around here, as well as nationally recognized schools like Philips Exeter, and those are exactly the type of courses they offer — not the generic World History or English I.

 

IMO, if you really want your DS to stand out when he applies to MIT, having a more unique transcript that shows his interests will be much more effective than a generic course list that looks just like every other public-schooled kid. I'm on several other homeschooling lists where kids have gotten into top colleges with very nontraditional transcripts. In fact one person said that when she interviewed at Yale, the interviewer told her that "people think we're looking for well-rounded kids, but actually we're looking for a well-rounded class of jagged kids."

 

As for writing.... Could you use a less structured program, like Bravewriter? Or even something creative like the One Year Adventure Novel (which could be a complete English credit as well). Or could you drop writing for now and do it as a separate "summer intensive" program, when he doesn't have so many other courses on his plate? He might find it less painful to focus on nothing but writing for a shorter period of time, like pulling a bandaid off quickly instead of millimeter by millimeter. As long as he learns to write at some point, in the meantime you can use oral discussions as "assessments" in subjects like history & literature in lieu of essays and tests.

 

Jackie

[Lori D.]

Actually, it sounds like your DS is giving you some very helpful, specific feedback. :) How about:

 

1. Together, come up with an organizational system that works for both of you. I suggest something that will also carry him into college years. Maybe a pda or i-pod or cell phone with a scheduling/planning app on it for helping him keep scheduled and know when things are due (sounds like right now, he is letting YOU be his calendar and reminder). A single box or plastic crate to hold all materials -- practice staying organized: one item out at a time as he works on it, immediately back in the crate and then take out the next thing. A binder with all supplies. Whatever is going to work for HIM that he will take ownership of.

 

2. Continuing with the programs he listed as working for him, and continue with the science emphasis.

 

3. Compromise with him on the tests -- REDUCE the amount, but still do some regular tests, for the following reasons:

a. so you have something to base grades on

b. to practice for college, which usually has 2 midterms, a paper/project, lab reports, and a final

c. to help him keep "fresh" with past learned material, and to stay in good test-taking practice for the spring test

 

4. Drop the Spanish.

(since he's already doing Latin and enjoying it, and many (not all) colleges will accept it as the foreign language)

 

5. For History, discuss and come to an agreement on what type of output and how much is reasonable for both of you; ideas:

- a weekly narration of 1 page

- 2 longer research papers, 1 per semester

- a project or hands-on -- such as have him engineer/build/recreate something from the time period (life size or scale model) WITH written support documentation

 

6. outsource the writing -- which sounds like the thing he hates the most and is going to fight the most about; not writing is not an option, but perhaps doing it for someone else will allow the two of you to be on the same "team" and allow an outside teacher be the "bad guy"

a. online writing course (Brave Writer; Write At Home; Time 4 Writing; Brown University Pre-College Online Writing Class for High School Students;

b. online tutorial (Tapestry of Grace tutorial for writing; Bandusia Tutorials;

b. local public school/private school high school class

c. local homeschool co-op

d. local tutor

e. dual enrollment at the local community college

 

7. Allow time in the week for building and tinkering with science and projects; perhaps even look for a FIRST Robotics or other science/engineering group for him to join.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Lori D.

[Corraleno]

Another thought about English — if your DS enjoys Latin and is interested in programming & programming languages, he might like to do Linguistics as one of his English credits. My DS, like yours, is definitely headed for a STEM career, he loves Greek, and he has minimal interest in formal literary analysis, so I'm planning for one of his HS credits to be Linguistics & Language, focusing on the science and history of human languages. We'll use 3 Teaching Company courses, an online course with G3, and some interesting books like In the Land of Invented Languages and The Language Construction Kit. The Construction Kit book teaches you how to invent a "conlang," complete with alphabet, grammar, lexicon, etc. DS's "output" for that course will consist of an invented language that follows linguistic rules and operates like a proper language; a techier kid could focus more on computational linguistics instead of inventing a language (the G3 course actually includes prep for the Computational Linguistics Olympiad). Spending a year studying language from a scientific perspective instead of a literary one might be a fun change of pace for your DS.

 

Jackie

Edited October 22, 2011 by Corraleno

[Guest]

Another thought about English — if your DS enjoys Latin and is interested in programming & programming languages, he might like to do Linguistics as one of his English credits. My DS, like yours, is definitely headed for a STEM career, he loves Greek, and he has minimal interest in formal literary analysis, so I'm planning for one of his HS credits to be Linguistics & Language, focusing on the science and history of human languages. We'll use 3 Teaching Company courses, an online course with G3, and some interesting books like In the Land of Invented Languages and The Language Construction Kit. The Construction Kit book teaches you how to invent a "conlang," complete with alphabet, grammar, lexicon, etc. DS's "output" for that course will consist of an invented language that follows linguistics rules and operates like a proper language. Spending a year studying language from a scientific perspective instead of a literary one might be a fun change of pace for your DS.

 

Jackie

 

Jackie and OP: both of your sons may possibly be interested in the book about the computer/robot built to compete on Jeopardy (Final Jeopardy by Stephen Baker). There's a lot of information about language in the book as well as programming and computers; the team of programmers had to analyze the linguistic structure of the typical clue, figure out ways for the computer to recognize key words that would provide the correct category of answer (such as a country, a person, an era, etc.), words that could be safely disregarded, ways to build up an appropriate data bank for answers, etc. It's really fascinating.

[Corraleno]

I've added it to my booklist — we watched the episodes of Jeopardy with "Watson," and DS was fascinated with the whole idea. Thanks!

 

Jackie

Edited October 22, 2011 by Corraleno

[Emerald Stoker]

nm

Edited November 21, 2012 by Honoria Glossop

[foxbridgeacademy]

I like your son's idea. Could he do History of Science for History with some basic "here are the high points" of world/american history? Writing well is very important for college. But maybe you could limit it to a few really well written/researched papers. I remember in Eng 103 (@IU) we wrote 2 three page papers, 2 five page papers, and 1 seven page paper (in 1 semester). As a freshman in High School I would think that plus a couple 1-2 pagers would be good enough for the whole year. He could write papers comparing scientists, how to do something step by step in computer programming, ect... At some point in time he will be responsible for his own educational choices, when he studies, what he "blows off". It might be a good idea for him to start learning now the kind of self discipline he'll need at MIT.

[at the beach]

Since you asked, I'll suggest that you go for it. Let your son do things his way. He sounds quite motivated. His keeper list is formidable.

 

As for documenting history/lit, I'm betting many here could give you amazing suggestions for your son to show he's doing these subjects. PowerPoint? Oral presentations? A drawing of some kind? A model of something? I'd definitely have him tracking time spent reading and discussing lit/history, too. As for writing, have you looked at Bravewriter for High School? It's really gentle. Maybe he'd like something like that. I'd also sit down and try to figure out what your goal is for him with re: to writing by the end of high school. You said his writing is lacking. In what way?

 

And with worries about college--honestly, having lower standards here for what sort of college will suffice has pretty much removed the worry factor and increased the homeschool happiness. It's very liberating to not be worried about the end result of homeschooling and instead be more focused on enjoying the journey.

 

Really, there's no one sure path into a place like MIT. You can do everything right and the odds are still pretty much not good it seems. If it's meant to be, it'll be. There's no one right school for a kid anyway IMO. There are just lots of possibilities.:001_smile:

 

Let us know what you decide to do.

[Guest Barb B]

First, LEt me say - I love his list! Really great that he is honest and motivated to do that! 2nd, he does need history in high school - but it doesn't have to be 4 years worth. Most schools like US History, World History, Government/economics (and some want geography - but we integrate that with so much I gave him the credit for it without it being a formal class). That said - I would look at some curriculum choice with him and decide with him what to do for history. He seems not to mind reading right - then don't go with actual textbook choices for history - pick which history you want to do for a particular year - and do it with books. I know there are some resource out there that help you do this to (don't know them offhand as my elect ds is not a reader!). Also, I seem to remember some sort of web site that had a list of movies to do for history!

 

For literature - reading and discussing is fine! Just be aware - he will most likely (even at MIT) be required to take English in college and be able to write a paper for that is part of it. That said - he is a freshman in high school right? Get there one step at a time. For instance - this year read and discuss - but good in depth discussions that will be great "thinking" preparations for writing later. One has to be able to discuss literary analysis before one can sit and write it! So this year - have him write whatever interests him - it could be writing about: hobbies, science, current events - anything.

 

Also, in my experience (ok - only one kid out of the nest and in college right now) this is sooo normal at the freshman age (especially boys). I would go with his ideas - while sticking in history in there, but in a way he will like. And add papers of topics of his choosing.

 

Barb

[Kathy in Richmond]

I'd like to comment first about the writing. Your son sounds a lot like my son in that regard; mine would have been ecstatic if I'd have allowed him to pursue STEM subjects and Latin all year long & dropped all humanities outside of reading.

 

But I'm glad I didn't drop those requirements when he wanted me to; in fact, if i have any regrets, I wish that I'd have pumped up the writing and output requirements while he was still at home. Writing and communication skills are absolute necessities in any field these days. And he'll have to write in college regardless of where he attends or what he chooses as a major. And if it's MIT and he's majoring in engineering or computer science, he'll be required to complete eight or so HASS (humanities, arts, social sciences) courses for graduation. They're not super easy classes, either - lots of reading and lots of writing involved. My kid found them challenging (more so than his engineering classes); the saving grace is that they have flexibility in choosing HASS courses that interest them. So he took linguistics, music theory, Spanish, the economic history of the Middle Ages, archaeology, etc.

 

My advice then, like others have said above, is not to drop them, but to allow your son flexibility in studying subjects in the humanities and social sciences that he finds interesting. At that age, my son enjoyed economics and government classes much more than straight history. He used a combo of textbooks, primary source readings, picking a bill in the State Legislature to follow & going downtown to sit in on committee meetings, working on relevant Boy Scout merit badges, etc. He dabbled in linguistics: NACLO has links to lots of resources that appeal to that kind of kid (you don't have to do the contests to use the materials). You get the idea: make it fun or at least tolerable for him.:)

 

And do make sure that he's writing almost every day. I approached writing holistically with my son. He didn't write many literary analysis essays (pure torture!), but he was writing in some subject every day. He did do a bit of Format Writing and most of Wordsmith Craftsman for the basics. But outside of that, on a given day writing might look like this: working on a write up of a good & concise mathematical proof, working on a research paper on the history of cryptography, completing some writing for a Boy Scout merit badge requirement, writing up notes from a BSA committee meeting, finishing a writing assignment from our TOG years on a book we'd read and discussed, a lab report write-up, or a Write@home assignment. So your son needn't write about every novel he reads as long as he is writing in some fashion!

 

The funny thing is that MIT's freshman writing class approached writing in an interdisciplinary fashion, too. I sat in on my son's writing class during freshman year Family Weekend. The teacher's assignment was to work on writing grant proposals that week. That day he had them doing short physics experiments in groups and writing up their results and recommendations for future work. Very interesting to the kids and relevant to their future careers.:D

 

Also, you might want to think about outsourcing some of the writing if it becomes a source of contention between the two of you. It's common to find high school boys giving Mom a hard time about their work. I think it stems partially from their need to get out there in the real world. Having an audience, if only a writing coach, made writing a little more relevant for my son. We found Write@Home to be particularly well-suited to these kids, but there are lots of other choices as well for outsourcing writing.

 

Your son's list of stuff he'd like to continue studying is terrific! He doesn't need encouragement there.

 

You say he doesn't want to be tested regularly? My caution there is it would be OK to drop as long as he's not working entirely alone. I didn't always test frequently, but in those subjects I was checking their work and conversing with them, so I knew what they did and didn't understand. The problem is that even smartest kids don't always approach problems in the best way, or they may miss important points. Also, at MIT, their problem sets will be checked weekly in great detail; it's good to get used to constructive criticism before you get there.:tongue_smilie:

 

So your son enjoys programming and tinkering? Has he looked at all at Carnegie Mellon, RPI, or Olin College of Engineering? Olin is also in the Boston area, and has a very hands-on engineering curriculum. We toured there a few years ago, and I was impressed with what they're accomplishing (lots of industry ties for projects & research, a great, trusting environment, & they draw from the top academic kids), AND they offer free half-tuition scholarships to all of their students. Just a thought. As much as I like MIT, I think it's wise to look around at lots of choices.

 

As far as Spanish goes, I'd vote to let him drop it. Most schools will accept Latin for entrance requirements. MIT does for sure - personal experience speaking here; my son went on to study Spanish when he got there. No need to double up on languages unless it's his wish.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Kathy in Richmond

[Kristin in Hawaii]

You are getting great responses so far. I signed my 10th grader up with MyWriteGuide.com 2 months ago and he gets his own writing tutor. I see real progress and it has been very important for the instruction to be coming from someone else. I asked him to complete essays based on topics he is covering in history. Just a thought ;)

 

Good luck! Definitely let him direct much of his learning and don't drive him away from his enthusiasm for learning.

 

Aloha,

 

Kristin in Hawaii

[Supertechmom]

Thank you guys! I'll respond in detail later when time opens up but I wanted to let you know I was reading the replies when I can pop in and appreciate it.

[J-rap]

As what others have said, I think most of his suggestions are doable, except of course he must learn to write. I had years of writing myself, and have used many different writing programs with my own children. I have to say that the best, most direct writing programs I've ever used are journalism programs. Perhaps the idea of journalism would sound more interesting to him, and if you have a good book or a good teacher, it can be the best writing class he has ever had.

[Jenn in CA]

You've got lots of good advice... just wanted to say, I'm so tickled by his list. I would be thrilled if either of my boys came up with a list like that.

 

As for writing, my boys just dove right into freshman English at the CC (in 10th grade) and did fine. It helped that they actually had, for the first time, an instructor who could teach them how to write, what a novel idea.

 

I say go for it!

[Jenn in CA]

We did very little testing and focused on mastery, it worked for us. Also I have had the boys write pretty open-ended response essays to their reading, and one year, they wrote nothing at all and just read (other than their writing for CC classes).

 

They have the rest of their college career to jump thru hoops. It feels so good to just let them learn stuff which is the whole point of homeschooling. I probably sound a bit off my rocker but oh well! I have lost more than a few marbles by now.

[Supertechmom]

thanks for all the great ideas! Everyone had some great input and I am so thankful that others didn't think I had lost my marbles there. I tried to catch all the questions in the post and then I'll post what I'm thinking n a separate post.

 

 

ETA: One basic thought: does he hate being micromanaged? How much freedom does he have? There is a far gap between giving the student freedom and complete unschooling. My kids choose each day how they want to spend their time on which subject; I mandate a total amount of time that must be spent on school using "approved" resources (though they can negotiate if they have found educational sources other than what we had picked together). I just remind them when it gets too lopsided.

Could it be your DS reacts negatively to being told too much what to do when? Could you experiment with HIM choosing his schedule and not doing daily lesson plans and assignments?

 

I'm trying. this year I handed him syllabus of every class with the weekly requirements and tried to leave it up to him to produce the daily work. It works some weeks and not others. It acutally failed at the writing assignments but he did keep up with the rest of the work.

 

What are using for Writing? My guy is doing Oak Meadow. It is child led.

 

How about CC classes for English? He really does need to be able to write.

 

we'r e not using anything for writing. He's done classes in the past online and can write a decent sentence and a decent paragraph. I started him doing a paper outline, then writing topic sentences for each paragraph and then forming the paragraphs and he started doing a lot better with that. And managed to make 2 page essay without dying. :) But i really don't' have a formal writing program. Nothing seemed to fit. He is working through Rod and Staff 7.

 

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I did just drop a lot of stuff. And my kid is not willing to suggest doing anywhere near as much as yours did.

 

It does! I thought I was the only one!

 

Tailoring a student's education to his interests doesn't have to equal a lightweight, noncompetetive transcript! Just because the standard Social Studies credits at the local PS may be World History, US History, and Geography (or whatever), that doesn't mean that your son can't have credits like History of Science, or History of Weapons & Warfare, or something closer to his interests. Even something like Media and Technology in American Culture can count as a Social Studies credit. English credits don't have to be English 1, 2, 3, (or American Lit, Brit Lit, etc.) either, they can be things like The Hero Quest in World Literature, or Utopia & Dystopia in Science Fiction, or any other topic of your son's interest. In fact, I looked at the course offerings at several of the top private schools around here, as well as nationally recognized schools like Philips Exeter, and those are exactly the type of courses they offer — not the generic World History or English I.

 

IMO, if you really want your DS to stand out when he applies to MIT, having a more unique transcript that shows his interests will be much more effective than a generic course list that looks just like every other public-schooled kid. I'm on several other homeschooling lists where kids have gotten into top colleges with very nontraditional transcripts. In fact one person said that when she interviewed at Yale, the interviewer told her that "people think we're looking for well-rounded kids, but actually we're looking for a well-rounded class of jagged kids."

 

As for writing.... Could you use a less structured program, like Bravewriter? Or even something creative like the One Year Adventure Novel (which could be a complete English credit as well). Or could you drop writing for now and do it as a separate "summer intensive" program, when he doesn't have so many other courses on his plate? He might find it less painful to focus on nothing but writing for a shorter period of time, like pulling a bandaid off quickly instead of millimeter by millimeter. As long as he learns to write at some point, in the meantime you can use oral discussions as "assessments" in subjects like history & literature in lieu of essays and tests.

 

Jackie

Thank you. I think some of those will help tremendously. I was stuck in the traditional series and couldn't see my way out of that.

 

Actually, it sounds like your DS is giving you some very helpful, specific feedback. :) How about:

 

1. Together, come up with an organizational system that works for both of you. I suggest something that will also carry him into college years. Maybe a pda or i-pod or cell phone with a scheduling/planning app on it for helping him keep scheduled and know when things are due (sounds like right now, he is letting YOU be his calendar and reminder). A single box or plastic crate to hold all materials -- practice staying organized: one item out at a time as he works on it, immediately back in the crate and then take out the next thing. A binder with all supplies. Whatever is going to work for HIM that he will take ownership of.

 

2. Continuing with the programs he listed as working for him, and continue with the science emphasis.

 

3. Compromise with him on the tests -- REDUCE the amount, but still do some regular tests, for the following reasons:

a. so you have something to base grades on

b. to practice for college, which usually has 2 midterms, a paper/project, lab reports, and a final

c. to help him keep "fresh" with past learned material, and to stay in good test-taking practice for the spring test

 

4. Drop the Spanish.

(since he's already doing Latin and enjoying it, and many (not all) colleges will accept it as the foreign language)

 

5. For History, discuss and come to an agreement on what type of output and how much is reasonable for both of you; ideas:

- a weekly narration of 1 page

- 2 longer research papers, 1 per semester

- a project or hands-on -- such as have him engineer/build/recreate something from the time period (life size or scale model) WITH written support documentation

 

6. outsource the writing -- which sounds like the thing he hates the most and is going to fight the most about; not writing is not an option, but perhaps doing it for someone else will allow the two of you to be on the same "team" and allow an outside teacher be the "bad guy"

a. online writing course (Brave Writer; Write At Home; Time 4 Writing; Brown University Pre-College Online Writing Class for High School Students;

b. online tutorial (Tapestry of Grace tutorial for writing; Bandusia Tutorials;

b. local public school/private school high school class

c. local homeschool co-op

d. local tutor

e. dual enrollment at the local community college

 

7. Allow time in the week for building and tinkering with science and projects; perhaps even look for a FIRST Robotics or other science/engineering group for him to join.

Thanks! I'll try those online courses. We started a google calendar the other week to input assignments and schedules in and he's trying to get the hang of it.

 

Another thought about English — if your DS enjoys Latin and is interested in programming & programming languages, he might like to do Linguistics as one of his English credits. My DS, like yours, is definitely headed for a STEM career, he loves Greek, and he has minimal interest in formal literary analysis, so I'm planning for one of his HS credits to be Linguistics & Language, focusing on the science and history of human languages. We'll use 3 Teaching Company courses, an online course with G3, and some interesting books like In the Land of Invented Languages and The Language Construction Kit. The Construction Kit book teaches you how to invent a "conlang," complete with alphabet, grammar, lexicon, etc. DS's "output" for that course will consist of an invented language that follows linguistic rules and operates like a proper language; a techier kid could focus more on computational linguistics instead of inventing a language (the G3 course actually includes prep for the Computational Linguistics Olympiad). Spending a year studying language from a scientific perspective instead of a literary one might be a fun change of pace for your DS.

 

Jackie

What are the Teaching Company courses you are using? That sounds like it would make for a fine English class next year.

[Supertechmom]

I really appreciate all the advice. My thoughts so far are to let him do what he wants. He's going to let me know tomorrow if he would like to turn history into a study of the Seven wonders of the world or Ancient world. I told him he could do a couple of hands on projects (rebuilding the wonder or the part that made it a wonder), one 3-4 research paper on one or the whole course perhaps, perhaps one powerpoint/video type project and then maybe do blog writings on his blog about his findings.( He loves his blog!) He would have to research the wonder, the engineering/science behind it. He thought that would make more sense to him since it would help him with engineering understanding how things were done. So maybe that would salvage this year's history??? He says he still read HOAW as it is interesting read to him.

 

English, I'm thinking just let him finish R&S 7 and do the writing assignments in it and call it a day. He still wants to do all the great book readings and we will schedule some time into the week and find a time to go hang out at Starbucks or the book store to have discussions about it. Maybe taking the TWEM and just doing the whole ting orally instead of on paper this year. My kids are pretty completely spread apart at least 4 years so the younger ones aren't up for much discussion. Maybe I could get him to do a book review for the library on some of it or do a blog post. but just lay off the whole written lit for this year. BUT, he did agree to write a down and dirty paper on the NASA Inspire work each week. So he will write at least weekly a couple of things as his Chemistry requires a couple of papers and research paper.

 

Spanish. UGH. I'll let him drop it though it is his second year of Spanish and I hate to seem him not get two years under his belt. I looked at live mocha and he does enjoy the openware course at MIT that uses those Spanish soap opera. But, I'll explain it to him and let him make a choice.

 

I'm going to suggest we change the core subjects (we do those in the morning) and do math and science all morning ( the new history would fall under science now in his mind and just become a part of that). He can then program, English,and then finish out the day with reading stuff. He's started doing his writing int he evenings around bed time and then we go over it and that seems to get it done. And he would still have time to tinker and build.

 

Does that sound like it would still cover everything?? And still make up state requirements and look decent on a transcript??

[elegantlion]

A long time ago, I believe it was Myrtle that recommended this book, The Ancient Engineers.

 

I own it, but have yet to get around to reading it. It sounds like it might fit into his ancient history plans.

[Corraleno]

What are the Teaching Company courses you are using? That sounds like it would make for a fine English class next year.

Teaching Co courses:

Understanding Linguistics: The Science of Language (36 lectures)

Story of Human Language (36 lectures)

History of English (36 lectures)

(the first 2 are taught by John McWhorter, of Stanford, who's written a number of popular books on language & linguistics, like The Power of Babel)

 

Some additional resources:

The OnlineG3 Linguistics class is one semester and includes prep for the Computational Linguistics Olympiad

The Adventure of English (documentary series with Melvyn Bragg, ~7 hrs total)

In the Land of Invented Languages: Adventures in Linguistic Creativity, Madness, and Genius

The Language Construction Kit

The Story of Writing: Alphabets, Hieroglyphs, & Pictograms

 

I really appreciate all the advice. My thoughts so far are to let him do what he wants. He's going to let me know tomorrow if he would like to turn history into a study of the Seven wonders of the world or Ancient world. I told him he could do a couple of hands on projects (rebuilding the wonder or the part that made it a wonder), one 3-4 research paper on one or the whole course perhaps, perhaps one powerpoint/video type project and then maybe do blog writings on his blog about his findings.( He loves his blog!) He would have to research the wonder, the engineering/science behind it. He thought that would make more sense to him since it would help him with engineering understanding how things were done. So maybe that would salvage this year's history??? He says he still read HOAW as it is interesting read to him.

If he wants to make it a bit broader — something like Technology & Engineering in the Ancient World — there are actually a lot of cool resources out there. A few that I can think of off the top of my head:

Understanding the World's Greatest Structures: Science & Innovation from Antiquity to Modernity (Teaching Co, 24 lectures; roughly the first half is on engineering in the ancient world)

Engineering an Empire (History Channel series, many episodes on the ancient world)

Seventy Great Inventions of the Ancient World

Science & Technology in World History: An Introduction

Engineering in the Ancient World

(NB: I wouldn't recommend James & Thorpe's book Ancient Inventions for this age, because there is an entire chapter on sex, including sex toys! I put this particular book on the top shelf for when DS is older.)

 

Oxford University Press's 7-volume series, Technology in World History, is excellent and the first two volumes cover the ancient world. I bought the set during one of those crazy sales that Amazon has on OUP sets (<$100 for the entire set), but you might be able to find them in the library. The ISBNs for the first 2 volumes are 0195218213 and 0195218221, in case that helps you locate them (sometimes you can get used copies of individual volumes quite cheaply)

 

Jackie

Edited October 23, 2011 by Corraleno

[proudmamma]

feeling the same here with 2 teenagers... :bigear: