Parents of TKD/martial arts students, I have a ? for you

[cloversandlions]

The studio where my ds takes TKD had pre-tests yesterday. DS decided that he did not want to test. He was ready - more than ready, and capable of passing (from green to green junior), but he doesn't have teaching hours (partly because it's a small studio, and "teaching" ops usually are taken by higher ranking students), partly because he usually attends a morning/homeschool class (MWF) where he is the most junior student, and partly because he's usually disinclined to go to afternoon classes after the morning class). Other than attending the afternoon class and hoping to get teaching time there, the only other opportunities to earn teaching hours are to work on the instructor's ranch, clean the studio, or (with permission) help with the tots class on T and Th afternoons.

 

The senior instructor there is very strict - he's older, from an East European country, and runs his studio/classes - even the beginner class (age 7 to adult) - like they are Marine recruits. By that I mean that he's generally insulting (calling them lazy, good-for-nothing, etc.) but ds is old enough to ignore that, mostly. He usually only teaches once a week, but that doesn't preclude him from giving lectures to the class after class is over.

 

Anyway, so I ran into the instructor's son, who is also an instructor there, and he said that it's not up to the student to decide whether or not the student can/will test - that that decision is solely the choice of the instructor, and that by not showing up for the pre-test, he's going to be in trouble with the senior instructor.

 

Now, I think my son didn't want to test because he didn't want to face/get yelled at by the senior instructor for not having teaching hours, and I am still not sure if I made the right decision by allowing him to choose not to test, or at least insisting that he speak with the senior instructor before the pre-test. But ...I'm not sure how to wrap my mind around being told that it's not the student's choice at all. I think that the natural consequence - not advancing a level - is maybe enough, but perhaps I'm just that unfamiliar with the martial arts rules.

 

So...all that to ask - if your dc takes TKD or another martial art, is testing mandatory if the instructor says the student is ready? If the student does not want to test, can they simply opt to postpone it? If they opt not to test without discussing it with the instructor, what consequences can the student expect?

 

Thanks in advance,

Natalie

[Truscifi]

Not at our dojo. Our instructors would also never insult students.

[FairProspects]

Ours are completely optional, but we are not nearly as high-ranked as your ds.

[black_midori]

Well - I was in martial arts for 8+ years and never ever heard an instructor (junior to master) speak to the participants that way. However, my horse riding instructors were another story!! Laf.

 

We were never forced to test, but there was definitely a push towards "focus on success & advance" as I got older & higher ranked. Not as a 12yo - but when I was 16 and a black belt, I was pretty much told I needed to put my focus on martial arts or I needed to move on (granted by someone who apparently thought that I would make the "right" choice). I ended up deciding I'd rather ride horses & bought my first horse instead of continuing in martial arts. At the lower ranks, however, it was just a matter of moving up when the opportunity presented and you felt ready.

[Sputterduck]

Insulting students is not normal or okay.

 

I *love* strict instructors. I would not tolerate one being insulting.

[AK_Mom4]

No on the insulting part. I have one kid with his 2nd degree black, one with his first degree black, one that stopped at candidate, and one that made it thru green (all TKD). Testing is not required though the instructor certainly pushed DS15 to test and finish his belt because he was really ready. Nothing mean, but spoke often with him about it and talked DS thru exactly why he didn't want to test.

 

Oh...and working on the instructors' ranch would definitely not counted as "instructing" time. DS15 was like your kiddo - teaching hours were hard to come by. He had to start working the tots class (which he HATED) in order to get the hours in.

[Guest Lah425]

Our instructors never force someone to take a test. There was a family that was ready, had the skills, had the hours, could have easily passed. However, one child had emotional issues and did not want to be in front of the class so he chose not to test out to the next level. The other child did test out to the next level. The mother also chose to not test out. My son and I both should be black belts at this point. I had to take a break because of back and hip problems but I held my son back from testing out to the next level. He was not happy about it but I felt it was the right thing to do because his level of respect for me and others had dwindled. That is part of the discipline in martial arts so I prevented his testing. If for no other reason, the respect is one very good reason the instructor should not be speaking to the students in the manner you described. I do believe your son should talk to the instructor. Maybe he could tell him that though his skill level is where it should be, he wants more time to practice and fully master those skills. Also, I would talk to the head instructor (if not the adult bully) and explain to him, as a parent, how inappropriate his communication is and how it absolutely goes against the discipline of respect that should be taught (if it isn't in your son's class) in ALL martial arts classes. Martial arts are not to be used to bully someone. They are to be used to defend one's self when necessary. To be instructed by a bully makes it seem like the art is also a means of physical bullying of others or utilized to exhibit brute force over others. That is NOT what martial arts is about. Our instructor was trained by Jhoon Rhee and then by J. Pat Burleson. Neither taught that martial arts were to be used as a weapon but as a defense. If a student in our class is caught using the art as a means of bullying or intimidation they automatically will lose a belt rank. No questions asked and they have to start all over.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would be out of that dojo in a heartbeat! Our instructor is firm but so encouraging. The students at our dojo do get permission to test but it's from the perspective that the master wants to make sure that they are really ready and doesn't want to waste the parent's money if they would not pass the test. If someone were ready, the instructor might talk to them to encourage them to test, but would never force them. Also - on the last test, ds was very ill the day of the test and the master called me to offer him a make-up test because he knew that he was ready and it wasn't his fault that he couldn't be there.

[golfcartmama]

Not at our dojo. Our instructors would also never insult students.

:iagree:

[Mimm]

The martial arts schools I've encountered emphasize (among other things) courtesy and respect for instructors and fellow students. I can't imagine name calling being tolerated. In my kids' classes, people get called Mr./Mrs. Lastname and sir/ma'am at testings and during the formal parts of class (beginning and end of class, etc).

[Forget-Me-Not]

I'd get out of there fast. My son was in Karate for 3 yrs and had a pretty old-school teacher that had been teaching for more than 30 yrs. He was pretty firm/strict with the kids, but never insulting and always encouraging.

[joannqn]

We, too, would be leaving that school. Insulting the kids isn't acceptable.

 

As far as testing, it is never required at our school. DS is a black belt and is working towards his 2nd degree with the hopes of being ready for the June testing. Our master will invite those ready to test; it is up to you whether you do test. Testing happens four times a year, so if you skip, you have another opportunity in three months.

 

DS was not required to do instructor hours until he was a black belt candidate. He was required to do 25 hours for his 1st degree, and didn't have to be completely done before testing day. He had do complete 50 hours before his June testing. Instructor hours are simply a matter of showing up during a lower level/young class ready to help whenever you are able to.

[Jean in Newcastle]

DS was not required to do instructor hours until he was a black belt candidate. He was required to do 25 hours for his 1st degree, and didn't have to be completely done before testing day. He had do complete 50 hours before his June testing. Instructor hours are simply a matter of showing up during a lower level/young class ready to help whenever you are able to.

 

I forgot to mention that ds14 is a brown belt and has never been required to have instructor hours. He does have some but that is because he enjoys doing it and is often at the dojo early to see if anyone is around who might want to play chess with him.;) Instructor hours are required for black belt candidates.

[cloversandlions]

Goodness! I am so grateful for all of your responses, and while I'm relieved to hear that testing isn't required (encouraged, I can see and appreciate) elsewhere, it certainly bothers me that it is here, and that I was told that it was not the student's decision. As for the insulting senior instructor - you've all confirmed what I suspected, but there is no other choice in our small town. This is the ONLY martial arts option here - the next closest dojo is about an hour away. Moreover, the senior instructor is also the owner - everyone answers to him, so there is no higher level to appeal to. He is not always insulting, but during class time...well, I don't think I've ever heard him speak positively about the students, and I think for most kids, he is definitely not approachable. After testing, he does usually joke with the kids.

 

As for teaching hours - the opportunities are limited. Because it is a small studio, there is only one beginners class (which meets M-F at 5 pm), and one advanced class (for purple and up - class meets M-Th at 6 pm, and F at 5 pm with the earlier class). There is the morning/homeschool class ds attends - ds says it's more rigorous and challenging, but also more laid back - which is 3 days a week at 11 am. The tots class is on T and Th, at 4 pm. That's it. No other class options. Green belts must wait at least 4 months between tests (testing is every 2 months, and it costs $65 to test), and need 20 teaching hours in order to test.

 

Oh...and working on the instructors' ranch would definitely not counted as "instructing" time.

 

YES! I agree, but not only does it count, it counts double, so 2 hours on the ranch = 4 teaching hours. It makes absolutely no sense to me, as it seems dishonest and unfair.

 

My ds likes the morning classes, and I know he doesn't want to quit, but he has a very keen sense of fairness and justice, and this is the sort of heavy-handed stuff that could provoke him to leave. FWIW, I think he should have gone to speak to the instructor, but I can also see why he would not want to.

 

DH has a job interview next week in another state; with any luck, maybe we'll be moving soon. LOL

 

Thanks again for your responses; I do so appreciate them.

[GinaPagnato]

Our studio is run strictly, as well, but without personal insults.

If the instructor doesn't think a student is ready to test, he won't allow it. This could be because he/she is unprepared, or hasn't attended class regularly (this mostly applies to the black belts).

[mama2cntrykids]

My ds' TKD instructor doesn't pre-test. They watch the forms to determine if they're ready for testing.

 

I also wouldn't feel comfortable about anyone, especially an "adult" calling my kids names. I think that would be a deal breaker for me. I'm sensitive about the however.

 

GL with what ever you choose to do:grouphug:.

[Little Nyssa]

Test or don't test--I have no opinion on that, but the environment sounds abusive & I would go elsewhere even if it's 1 hr away.

[Chris in VA]

I think you would be wise to call the other place, make an appointment to observe, drive the hour, and compare the classes.

No one should be insulting, as others have said. There's often a fine line, so I'd cut some slack, but in general, the tone should be strict but encouraging.

 

Our instructor was harsh sometimes, but we were ok with it--harsh meaning very, very honest. :001_smile:

 

As far as choosing to test, I suspect the reason you don't get to make that decision stems from the idea that the instructor is the authority, not the student. It may be seen as not your kiddo's place to make those decisions. Sounds a little overboard, but what I've seen at our dojang (now not in operation anymore--the owner went back to college full-time as a 40yr old), is that the idea of respect is super-important. Hair had to be cut, you came on time, you could not walk on the floor area until invited, you came into the dojang and waited to be acknowledged by the owner or a Sr. instructor before going down to the locker room area, you used Sir and Ma'am, you bowed, you said goodbye, you did not chat with friends, etc. Could be choosing what your level is, is part of respecting the teacher. Doesn't mean you can't discuss it with the teacher. But you don't just "not show up" or not sign up.

[ChandlerMom]

I LOVE martial arts and am so glad my kids enjoy it. But ANY abusive or demeaning talk from an instructor and I'd find another activity. The 2 things I will not tolerate in a MA program is a blasé attitude towards injury, and a hostile club culture (either from teachers or other students). Those are deal-breakers for me. The kids' instructor is a 5th degree blackbelt and retired school teacher, and I can't imagine her being harsh with the kids, though she is strict (in a good way).

 

As to kids and testing -- optional. I don't really "get" kids and testing since they usually have to start over when they join the adult class. It's ok as long as it fosters a sense of accomplishment and responsibility. I've told my dc's that they don't have to test.

 

I know you're in a tough spot, but I would be talking to my dc about respect and that respect does not mean tolerating abuse or that his teacher's behavior is ok. If he wants to quit, he can always pick it up as an adult. Here's hoping your dh gets that job and you move somewhere with a great kids' program!

[higginszoo]

The martial arts schools I've encountered emphasize (among other things) courtesy and respect for instructors and fellow students. I can't imagine name calling being tolerated. In my kids' classes, people get called Mr./Mrs. Lastname and sir/ma'am at testings and during the formal parts of class (beginning and end of class, etc).

This. Courtesy and respect are the foundation of our academy. We do have one instructor in particular who is very strict. I am aching from his 7-9 am Saturday class ... he is tough, but never in any way insulting. Even when he's working with the younger students and they frustrate him (he generally sticks to teens and adults when he can).

 

In our academy, the students are encouraged to test when the instructors deem them ready, but parents are allowed to override that (I've kept one child from testing because I didn't feel she was ready, even though the head instructor recommended her).

 

Instructional hours are completely different from belt levels, just for students in the instructor training program, and they earn chevrons for that. They only take enough people in that program so that every student gets teaching opportunities. My older three dc just started that program as other people phased out of it. It is possible for people to be black belts with no instructional hours if they're not on the instructor training path.