s/o paying for college: why restrict the field of study

[BamaTanya]

...that they have to study business.... it sounds like a great way to put them off it.

 

Laura

 

I think there are other ways to tell them.

 

I was not motivated by money or career ambition. I wanted to be a writer. I didn't care how much money I made. I had friends who were finance and marketing and computer science and pre-Wall Street who only cared about how very very much money they would make and that's how they selected their majors.

 

Not I.

 

I was naive. I thought EVERYONE who got a REAL JOB after college could afford to LIVE. I was wrong. I didn't care for big houses and fancy cars, but I DID want to support myself.

 

I remember the day -- the very conversation -- in which I selected English over computer science. WHY did I choose??? Why didn't I stick with both?

 

I know I would have if someone had had this conversation with me:

 

"Look, Tanya. You see this pretty bedroom of yours in your parents' house with your brothers? If you choose English, you can apply to write articles for the local paper at $3.50 per hour. (Minimum wage was $3.35 that year.) Here, let me help you add that up. You're making $3.50 part time at the Country Club on the weekends? Let's see what that would mean if you could actually work 40 hours per week . . . Well, that old car you're driving for college? You could probably keep it running for another 10 years or so, if you save up for a new transmission. And you'll need $xx for health insurance. And you'll need $xx for car insurance and . . . .

 

"Guess you'll be living in this bedroom for a couple more years after graduation, then."

 

Because that's exactly what happened. I went to work at the first job offered and saved over half my pay while living at home so I could finance my own master's degree . . . in education . . . a field where I could get a real living paycheck. Not lots of money, but enough for life expenses.

 

I'm pretty sure that a conversation like that would have convinced me to stick around for a double major so I could be like my "greedy" friends who made enough money to live on their own after college.

[bettyandbob]

I'm not well off. I live in an expensive area and we can't move due to dh's job. I never thought I wouldn't help my kids pay for an undergraduate degree. My dh, who worked his way through college and grad school without help has never thought we wouldn't pay some or all (if we can) of an undergrad degree for each dc.

 

One of my friend's has no degree. I've watched her go through some bad times. Every job she's ever had she tops out and can't be promoted--not because she doesn't have the skills, because she doesn't have a degree

 

I have another friend who has a BFA in Art and her dh has a BFA and an MFA (painting). They support themselves well. Neither took business classes "just in case". My friend worked for an ad agency and support her dh through grad school. Later they moved near me because her family is here. She has her own business doing commissioned work and has more business than she can handle. Her dh works for a small company as an illustrator. They own a home in this expensive area. I can't imagine what they would be like if they had been thwarted from pursuing art.

 

I think if you are strongly passionate about something that is what you need to study. I think it's important to experience that when you are young and have no responsibilities, except yourself. Once you are married and certainly after you have children, your own interest take a back seat, if you haven't had a chance to pursue your passion before then you probably never will.

 

I am a strong supporter of liberal arts degrees. I went to a very competitive liberal arts college which had a very good career services center to help people with the plan for after college. However, if my dc decide to pursue something more career oriented (engineering, nursing, etc), I'm fine with that too. Keep in mind career oriented degrees aren't doing that great either.

[Impish]

Unfortunately, with the economy the way it is and the astronomical cost of college, it's a luxury to view college as personal development and a broader worldview. I wish I could. Some people can afford to do that. But I wouldn't spend $100k sending my child overseas on a 4-year humanitarian service trip for personal development and a broader worldview with little chance of turning it into marketable professional skills, either, no matter how fulfilling I might think it would be in theory.

 

Tara

:iagree:

My kids can fund whatever study they choose. For my wallet, I don't want them graduating, saying, "Wow, that was a great 4 yrs..." and discovering that their time and money spent doesn't get them any further ahead in supporting themselves and creating their own future than before. When discussing this level of finances, there simply isn't the ability for a 'do over'. I'd hate for them to have to return to school, spend all that money twice, b/c there's nothing for them in their first field of study. And I absolutely would not contribute anything to a 2nd run at it. I have other kids who need help for the first go 'round.

 

Then again, I also refuse to financially support an adult. I fully expect my kids to be self supporting a year after graduation (post secondary). There will not be the option of continuing to live with us, be supported financially in any way by us after they've been out of school for a year. (They can live and save with us for up to a year).

 

So, my kids do have a deadline in terms of when they're expected to get on with their adult lives. We have other kids that will be moving through the ranks, and can't fund everyone on an open ended basis.

[Haiku]

I'm pretty sure that a conversation like that would have convinced me to stick around for a double major so I could be like my "greedy" friends who made enough money to live on their own after college.

 

My dad was adamant that his girls (3) study science because it would be intellectually challenging and financially lucrative.

 

The one who took his advice makes over 200k a year.

 

That one is not me. :lol: (The other one married a man who is a VP at a huge telecom corporation, and she can afford to follow her bliss, which is NOT what she studied in college.)

 

I wanted to study psychology, and I did, for one quarter. It was what I was interested in. Then I realized that a bachelor's in psych is a degree in unemployment because NO ONE hires psych bachelors to do psychology. You need AT LEAST a master's. And I thought, why spend the time and money on something "fun" so I can work at some other job when I graduate?

 

I switched my major to social work, where in many states you can get licensed at the bachelor's level. In other states you need a master's to be licensed but there are still bachelor-level positions.

 

Social work is notoriously low-paying, but at least I could support myself after college and didn't have to go home to mom to save money.

 

Luckily I married a man who majored in something more financially rewarding than social work.

 

I think if you are strongly passionate about something that is what you need to study. I think it's important to experience that when you are young and have no responsibilities, except yourself. Once you are married and certainly after you have children, your own interest take a back seat, if you haven't had a chance to pursue your passion before then you probably never will.

 

Were I a single mom who had to support my kids on a social work degree, I'd be extremely hard-pressed. Dh's best friend and his wife are both social workers. They have three kids and make, combined, less than dh (and dh certainly doesn't make huge amounts, although he did recently find a new, full-time job after 10 months of reduced hours/pay at his old job ... w00t!!!).

 

Tara

[Sevilla]

I would not specify a certain degree field, I *would* specify that they focus on coming out with marketable skills. Both DH and I had 'fun majors' and 'work majors' - the fun majors were classes we enjoyed and were dedicated to, our work majors got us the jobs in the fields we're still in a decade later.

 

Bottom line: My kids need to know their strengths and skills, study in those veins, and make sure their field of study will provide job opportunities.

 

Ex. Student is gifted at technology. Great! Focusing on virtualization will net far more job opportunities than being a programmer since those jobs are much harder to find.

[SKL]

LOL, I wanted to be an elementary school (special ed) teacher. I was so adamant about it. As a gifted student, I had zero moral support for this choice. Even my teachers, but especially my parents, thought I was wasting my abilities. But even though I was only 16 and technically at my parents' mercy, I was not prevented from pursuing the degree of my choice. My parents did not have a penny to help me, but they co-signed for the student loan and let me use their car and live in their house.

 

During my third year, reality sunk in and I changed my major, and ended up doing pretty much what my elders had hoped - but it was 100% my own choice.

 

My brother's daughter just started college. Her dad was trying to come up with the money to pay for her to go to an expensive school. The fields she was considering didn't sound like the type that would guarantee the ability to pay off student loans eventually. Ultimately the financing didn't work out, and she's pursuing a more practical path. I think we're all relieved (except Ms. Student, perhaps). I have nothing against pursuing one's own dream, but only provided the individual is accountable for the cost.

[DawnM]

Ah, well, that is where we already differ. I am not offering a $100K ride to school.

 

Our offer is whatever the tuition of the local 4 year school is at the time (currently $5K for tuition only.)

 

My oldest has some learning disabilities so I will be pleased as punch if he gets an Art degree.....because it will a DEGREE! If he isn't passionate about it he may not go or finish at all.

 

Now, he has recently expressed an interest in Engineering and he would be a good engineer, as long as they don't test his spelling or writing, but that is a whole different issue.

 

So, I am fine with a degree that may not be "profitable" right away.

 

Just get the dang degree and we will worry about the details later.

 

We have a dear friend with no BA. He works for an insurance company where you MUST have a BA to move ahead. He has gone up the ladder as far as he can now and gets upset when people with DRAMA degrees move past him with fewer years of experience.

 

So, is it worth it to get a degree, even in something seemingly worthless....YES, IMHO.

 

Dawn

 

 

As to why I would restrict the course of study, there are some majors that will not provide a livable income. Dance major. Music major. Theater major. Art major. Why invest $100K only to graduate an unemployable adult?

 

[Rosie_0801]

My humanities degree was wimpier than the Rhetoric stage WTM recs, but was worth ever cent I'm yet to pay on it! However, I'll feel like the loser parent if my kids feel the need to go off and do one to get an education.

 

Rosie

[Mrs Mungo]

This is very true.

However, if you ever get sick of owning a gym, I'd say a degree can still open some doors. Not as many as before, perhaps, but sometimes it doesn't matter what the degree is in.

Also, there's more to college than getting a degree. I believe there's another kind of education available there--not the only place to get it, and NO WISECRACKs out there about the "other kind of ed..." LOL

 

I do not disagree with you at all. And, I pointed out something similar in another post. I am not speaking against going to college or getting a liberal arts degree, not at all. I am speaking against floating from thing to thing like a leaf in the wind without some plans or ideas of what you might want to do.

[eewaggie99]

I don't believe college is all about the "experience." Perhaps if the child is at a top-twenty university AND graduates with excellent marks, there might be an argument for the experience. But the vast majority of college graduates are from state university or lower tier/small LACs with little name recognition. Having lived in many different parts of the US, I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say, "Such-and-Such college is so prestigious" and I felt certain very few people outside the region would have heard of it. I went to one of the largest undergraduate schools in the US and had educated people outside the region claim they had never heard of it.

 

College is about getting a job. If you don't believe college is about gainful employment, send your child backpacking through a few countries for four years. It would cost about as much and your child would experience far more.

 

I know anecdotal evidence doesn't mean squat, but I have a close friend who wants to be a writer. Several friends, including myself, recommended she take English courses, but get a double degree, with an emphasis on computing. She was and is good at computers. She chose to get an English degree and pursue her passion. For two years after graduation, she couldn't get a full-time job. Finally, she found a job: in computing. She acknowledged last year she should have studied computing in college.

 

I don't know if I would restrict my child's degree choice. Right now, I know I would struggle with the decision if my child pursued a liberal arts degree without certification or post-graduate plans. Perhaps when the time comes, I'll mellow. However, I would counsel them to talk to people with jobs in their chosen major and make sure they are completely aware of the ease or difficulty in getting a job. My husband and I worked all through high school and college and I think it gave us more clarity on the working world. I would encourage my child to start working in their field in high school and through college, then decide if it is a viable career path for them.

 

One final note and I'll get off my soap box. University is not the end of your child's education. If it's a good university, it would be a great enhancement. But your child will probably have forty, fifty, sixty and perhaps even more years to pursue knowledge and follow their dreams. As an added bonus, if you have a job, you have greater means to support your passion.

[YLVD]

Wouldn't she have been just as successful as a double-major in art and business?

 

I'm all in favor of majoring in a field about which a student is passionate so long as it's paired with a major in something a bit more practical. If my DD still wants to study fashion design a decade from now, I think that's wonderful- I just want her to have a back-up plan in case she doesn't wind up the next Christian Siriano ;)

 

Maybe, but it turns out it wasn't necessary! However, I agree that a backup plan is always a good thing. My DD will likely be in something creative and I will encourage some business classes in addition.

[YLVD]

I do hope that the education my girls receive will provide better employment opportunities. It is ONE reason I have encouraged them to go. It is just not the only reason or even the PRIMARY reason.

 

We aren't a well to do family. It is a stretch to send them to college.

 

Going away to college when I was a teenager was a pivotal experience. It has shaped my life in many ways, only some of which were financial. I could have received that experience many ways including moving across country (my neice), travel abroad or military experience (this was my mother's defining moment); I just did it through college.:001_smile: That seems to be the path my girls will take.

 

Many of my friends are sending their children to school in hopes of a good job. That is a fine reason, it just isn't my reason. In real life (not here) I am getting tired of people putting down my dd's choice of major, as if she were "wasting time". :tongue_smilie:

 

I agree and I find it confusing to be on a board with people that homeschool using a classical approach that don't see the value of that type of learning, learning for the education.

[gardenmom5]

I hope to pay for my dc's college expenses. They've been told they are limited to in state schools and we've been researching scholarships together. One thing I won't do is limit what they can study. I've told them they can study whatever they want It seems, at least where I live, if you do not have a trade you really need a degree. Having a degree seems to be desired by most employers even if the job skills have nothing to do with the degree.

 

That said I want my dc to study whatever they want fully. To some extent, if you love what you study, it is possible to turn the skills you develop through the discipline into a career, often in ways that one can't see right from the start. If you love what you study, you are more likely to attain the academic honors to qualify for fully funded PhD programs and Fulbright scholarships.

 

My parents "helped me" with college, but it was with the understanding of only considering certain careers. I've come to the conclusion that having a degree in a subject that I didn't really want has been no help to me for securing my own future. .

 

No way would I allow my kids to study whatever they wanted and expect me to contribute. there is a huge difference in what degrees pay, especially out of college (for a bs/ba - the range is $25k - $100k depending upon degree. degree matters.). Some degree's are more than just a waste of time, they're a money pit because they've graduated with debt and still need skills to make a decent living.

 

For me, it needs to be a real subject and a real education. If you look at the jobs in your area that don't require a trade - what are the degree's most in demand? an employer is not going to hire someone who has nothing on their resume indicating they know what they are doing in a given subject. Especially in this job market. (e.g. my niece graduated in microbiology - her first job was in the lab and since she was low-man, they had her train to run the database (she fell in love with it) and she gradually gained more experience running a database. Now, she's progressed from database managment to database design. but only because she got into database while working in the biolab, took more classes in it, and could put it on a resume.)

 

Engineering generally is five years.

[Rosie_0801]

I agree and I find it confusing to be on a board with people that homeschool using a classical approach that don't see the value of that type of learning, learning for the education.

 

Think of it this way: You are on a board with people from predominantly one income families. We know education for the sake of education can be done for less than the price of a college degree.

 

Surely that makes sense.

 

Rosie

[Farmgirl70]

Hey, go easy on the disparaging comments about Drama majors :001_smile:. My daughter is planning to double major in Drama and either psychology or Literature. She's an incredible writer, very people smart, very resourceful and has done tons of work at a local youth theater--including script writing and a paid internship. She's a smart girl and I will encourage her to follow her dreams. She knows the realities of her intended majors and knows people working in them in a variety of ways. She's also grown up in a one income family where the one income earner works in a non profit. Choosing a career you love knowing that you'll not make much money is a fine option, in my mind. We've had a great life and know many people who have no money cares and don't enjoy their work much at all.

[Mom in High Heels]

 

As to why I would restrict the course of study, there are some majors that will not provide a livable income. Dance major. Music major. Theater major. Art major. Why invest $100K only to graduate an unemployable adult?

 

 

 

Um, ouch. We sarcastically joke about it being dead useful, but I have a degree in theatre (theatre design) and worked for many years in the theatre making a decent amount of money. James Bond being in the Army is what hurt my career. I was able to find work in summer theatre camps for kids in a few of the places we've lived and that is good money and loads of fun, but only temp positions. Had I stayed where I was, I'd probably be head designer by now or teaching theatre design at a uni.

I have several friends from college who are very, very successful in the theatre. One is a house manager at a theatre on Broadway, another does marketing for a huge theatre in Chicago and 2 are working actresses on TV and in film. One starred in her own show on WB a few years back. You CAN be successful with "unemployable" degrees.

 

I was a theatre major in college and now I am a homeschooling Mom working as a medical transcriptionist/secretary. I have friends from college with theatre degrees that are very successful, in our field.

 

 

:hurray: You spell theater right!

 

My degree is actually a double degree in theatre and English (I've never really used the English half of it though), but I have had many jobs that required only a degree, not in any specific major. Before I started hsing Indy, I worked in the gas an oil industry making about $125K a year. They didn't care what my major was. The fact that I had a degree was enough.

 

Will I tell my kids we'll only pay for college if they study certain things? No. We will have a discussion with them about the possibilities of the future could be regarding each major, but what they want to study is their business. I can guide them but I can't dictate the rest of their lives.

 

BTW, James Bond studied opera in college. He's now an intel officer in the Army. They didn't care what his degree was in.

[twoforjoy]

I do sometimes feel like my degree is worthless, but, quite honestly, I don't think it was a waste of time or money. I have a B.A. in English and women's studies and an M.A. in English. My post-secondary education comes in very handy for homeschooling, helped me to develop useful writing skills, and allows me to make a decent amount of money for the number of hours I work (i.e., I don't make very much, but I work even less).

 

I think it's very easy to blame the difficulty many young people have finding jobs on them. If they'd only picked a better major, if they'd only worked harder, if they'd only done an internship, etc. But, the fact is that right now the job market sucks. It is probably the worst time for young people to be looking for jobs than we've seen in a few generations. And, there's no magic bullet to save young people from that. I keep seeing business degrees mentioned, but I've known people with business degrees who ended up returning to school to become teachers because they couldn't find a job in business. Like I said, right now everybody wants their kid to go into engineering because it seems like a sure thing for making good money, but where I live there's already a good number of unemployed engineers and I'm sure we'll see a more widespread glut soon.

 

My husband and I both studied the things we loved. (DH studied psychology and film.) And, while we haven't had the easiest time of it financially--I don't know anybody in their early 30s who has!--we've been able to find work, we've been able to support ourselves and our kids, and we love what we do. I don't think our lives would be better if we'd majored in something practical that we didn't actually enjoy and were now working jobs that we didn't particularly like so that we could make more money. My sister and her husband make about twice what we do but they do not like their jobs, and I wouldn't trade places with them at all.

 

I do think that college is, right now, a racket. I think employers are getting away with making a college degree a prerequisite for nearly every job, most of which could be performed just fine by people without degrees, and that's not okay. And I think many people would probably be happier if there were more opportunities for people who don't go to college. But, I can't say I agree that there's no value in a liberal arts degree. At the very least, somebody is going to have to teach the liberal arts courses that all of the engineering and nursing and business majors are taking.

[Guest Barb B]

Haven't gotten through all the replies yet, but. . . 2 things.

 

1. don't just restrict to state schools - merit scholarships are elsewhere too. Also related to this - if you want scholarships - test scores are very, very big factor is lots of them. Ds got $40,000 scholarship - if his ACT score was just one point lower he wouldn't have gotten it! A few points higher and he would have gotten more!

 

2. DOn't know if anyone mentioned - whereas it is good to have expectations to finish college - my ds is majoring in engineering - the average finish time as most colleges for engineering is 5 years. Point is - 4 or 5 years - it depends on the major - for some majors it is just too hard to get all requirements in in 4 years. So finishing in 5 for engineering doesn't mean you failed some classes and had to repeat them - no, it means - there are so many engineering classes to take along with the universities general ed requirements.

 

Barb

[bettyandbob]

For me, it needs to be a real subject and a real education. If you look at the jobs in your area that don't require a trade - what are the degree's most in demand? an employer is not going to hire someone who has nothing on their resume indicating they know what they are doing in a given subject.

 

 

You know for a majority of employers, it doesn't matter what the degree is in. If you have skill they want and the degree in anything they will hire you. My SIL was working at a place for years and being paid poorly until she decided to finish her degree. When she finished her degree by correspondence in the early 90's before online school was big it was a general liberal arts bachelor's. She was given a small promotion at her work. She then put together a resume and found she suddenly had job offers out the wazoo. She didn't before the degree and the degree was not targeted in any particular subject.

 

A high school friend of mine had a similar experience. He topped out in promotions at a job. He was never going to be management. They told him they wanted to make him management, but he had to have a degree in anything. So, he got a degree in a field he thought he wanted to work in unrelated to job. He got the promotion. He left that job some years ago, but he's never worked in the field his college degree relates to.

 

My sil and my friend struggled financially for years without their degrees. If they'd had degrees sooner they probably would still have struggled, but not nearly as long. My sil at one point was working nights, a situation that made her vulnerable and she was raped by a coworker. We'll never know if she could have avoided that and secure a better job had she completed school earlier.

 

Having the degree in anything gives you opportunities, even if the degree is unrelated to skills you need for the job.

Edited September 20, 2011 by betty

[Mama Geek]

Haven't gotten through all the replies yet, but. . . 2 things.

 

1. don't just restrict to state schools - merit scholarships are elsewhere too. Also related to this - if you want scholarships - test scores are very, very big factor is lots of them. Ds got $40,000 scholarship - if his ACT score was just one point lower he wouldn't have gotten it! A few points higher and he would have gotten more!

 

2. DOn't know if anyone mentioned - whereas it is good to have expectations to finish college - my ds is majoring in engineering - the average finish time as most colleges for engineering is 5 years. Point is - 4 or 5 years - it depends on the major - for some majors it is just too hard to get all requirements in in 4 years. So finishing in 5 for engineering doesn't mean you failed some classes and had to repeat them - no, it means - there are so many engineering classes to take along with the universities general ed requirements.

 

Barb

 

I agree with Barb on engineering taking up to 5 years to complete, but one additional thing is that some of the classes are extremely difficult. I have seen threads on this board discussing major struggles with science and math, well, just because you go to college doesn't mean it gets easier. There are many people in engineering who put a lot of work into their classes that were hard and still ended up having to retake them. I worked hard in a fluids dynamics class and still had to retake it. My dh had a really tough course that was a combo statics/dynamics class with a really tough prof. He had to retake that after working an avg of 30 hours a week on the class. We both had a really firm grasp of the material after taking the class a second time. There are some very tough courses out there that not nearly everyone passes on the first try.

[Mama Geek]

 

 

You know for a majority of employers, it doesn't matter what the degree is in. If you have skill they want and the degree in anything they will hire you. My SIL was working at a place for years and being paid poorly until she decided to finish her degree. When she finished her degree by correspondence in the early 90's before online school was big it was a general liberal arts bachelor's. She was given a small promotion at her work. She then put together a resume and found she suddenly had job offers out the wazoo. She didn't before the degree and the degree was not targeted in any particular subject.

 

A high school friend of mine had a similar experience. He topped out in promotions at a job. He was never going to be management. They told him they wanted to make him management, but he had to have a degree in anything. So, he got a degree in a field he thought he wanted to work in unrelated to job. He got the promotion. He left that job some years ago, but he's never worked in the field his college degree relates to.

 

Having the degree in anything gives you opportunities, even if the degree is unrelated to skills you need for the job.

 

While I would agree that people are generally more employable with any college degree rather than no degree, in this economy any degree does not guarantee a decent job. Even years ago I worked with a guy who had an Engineering Tech degree from a college that was not ABET accredited. He was 40 or 45 years old and not making what a starting out engineer made at the time.

 

My dh worked manual labor while in college with a guy who had a business degree from a bad school.

 

A couple of stories related to my dh. He has his BA in Physics from a good school. Do you know why he has a Master's in engineering? He couldn't find anyone in the early 90's to give him a job. He even offered to work for free for a trial period. Then when he graduated with his Master's he got a job with a company that only recruited from top engineering schools. They typically did not recruit from our college, but the oil business was booming, they needed employees and he impressed them. I have seen time and time again that the degree and often time the school do make a big difference.

 

Yes you can be successful if you don't pick a marketable major, it is just much more difficult.

[LidiyaDawn]

If our kids decide to go to college/university and we somehow have the money to fund it for them ourselves (lottery win? LOL) --- they can study whatever they want. It's THEIR life.. not mine. I'm not gonna stand in the way of their dreams just because I don't think something will "pay enough" later.