Question about Positive Discipline

[goldberry]

I've been reading intently the threads lately about positive discipline, and non-punishment based discipline.

 

I am having such a hard time with my 12 y/o not cooperating with things she is asked to do.

 

Example: DD is expected to put away her dishes after breakfast. She is expected to rinse her cereal bowl out in the sink (not just put the bowl containing leftover cereal and milk in there). We have been working on this for about a YEAR. This is insane! ALMOST every single day she leaves the cereal bowl on the table. I call her back EVERY TIME to put it away. If it does make it to the sink, it is not rinsed out. I call her back EVERY TIME. (I have attempted various forms of calling her back - calmly, angrily, etc. Mostly, I just say calmly, "You need to come back and put your bowl away and rinse it out.")

 

I have enforced a consequence of whenever she does this, she has to wash her dish by hand. She has also had to wash all the dishes in the sink at that time. This has had no effect on her behavior. Also, yes, whenever she has put the bowl away without me asking, I have thanked her very much for remembering to do so.

 

My instinctive next step is to start enforcing some crazy extreme consequence for this because I am ready for her TO GET IT THROUGH HER HEAD TO DO THIS. She says she just forgets, but that seems impossible to me after all this time, plus her being 12 y/o.

 

How would this situation be dealt with without punishment? Isn't that what I have been trying to do? It hasn't worked all this time.

 

This is one example. We have several behaviors like this that I don't know what to do with. Our relationship is ok, but I am worried if I start to take the hard line with punishments, it will just deteriorate. I am looking for all options!

 

And yes, I feel like a totally incompetent mom that cannot get my own kid to put a bowl away. That is why I am about to go psycho mommy on her.

[Carol in Cal.]

I would sit down with her in a calm way and ask her what it will take to have her do this on her own. Then I would listen to every last idea she came up with and keep saying, what else? What else? Then I would say that I have to think about this. Then I would leave it alone for a couple of days to see if that was sufficient. If it wasn't, I'd start down the list of thing.

 

I would figure that this won't go from 100% fail to 100% compliance all at one time, but that it would improve significantly.

 

If it didn't, plan B would probably be extra chores, more so than now, sort of a tomato staking type chores sequence. As in, please go handwash all the dishes in the sink, and come back and report to me when they are done. OK, now please go empty all the recycling into the recycling bin and come back and report to me when this is done. etc. The lists would get longer and more obnoxious if repeated. I would start to add in instruction after about 4 tries. "OK, today now that you have done x, y, and z, I'm going to teach you to wash windows, and then you can do all of the ones in the living room, inside and out."

[gingersmom]

She's a pre-teen. Just wait until she officially becomes a teenager.

 

I have the same exact conversation with my daughter at 13, then again at 14. At nearly 15 she is almost getting it. Except for today when she left her half eaten lunch on the kitchen table. :glare:

 

There are way worse things kids can do that deserve "punishment".

[simka2]

Ooooh! We just dealt with this!!! Successfuly ;).

 

It took a bit of deliberate effort on my part. Here's what we did. It is very HOT here so I decided we would get Icecream cones....every night. They are 50cents at our local McDonalds. The catch? Only if you put all your dishes away, cleaned the table after yourself, and put anything else you got out to make your meal.

 

The first night not one child got a cone, but dh and I did!

Second night 2 did.

By the 3rd all four kids got a cone.

Now, we still get ice cream on occasion but you can only get it if all your food iteams have been put away.

 

I have not had to ask them to put a dish away in a month!

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I'd start at the beginning instead of the end.

 

Before meal: "Please remember to rinse your bowl out after you eat".

 

After she eats, but before she leaves the table: "Please remember to rinse your bowl out after you eat".

 

lather rinse repeat. I forget things a LOT that dh thinks are important. They just don't register with me like they do with him.

[Momof3littles]

"I've noticed we are having a problem getting your bowl to the sink to be rinsed. I don't like nagging and you don't like being nagged. I'd like you to come up with a plan so that you manage to get your dishes cleared, and I don't have to nag you."

 

I'd ask her to present you with several ideas that might work.

 

A visual aid? Can she make it? Would she enjoy making a silly poster, decorating a poster, making herself a placemat, or a placecard with a reminder?

 

My 7.5 yo often requests a snack in his room while he's reading late-ish at night. Somehow his dishes don't make it back downstairs the next morning. He also leaves wet towels on his floor sometimes. Rather than nagging, I'm going to work with him on making a poster that we'll laminate that has reminders for him.

 

eta: it has been a while but have you read How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen so Your Kids Will Talk? It might be good to revisit if you haven't. I need a refresher but I always think that's a great book particularly for talking to tweens/teens.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Momof3littles

[cuckoomamma]

Well, I think there are a couple of different paths to try. A great example was what a pp mentioned about having a heart to heart with her and asking her.

 

I think the sign over the sink is a great idea, as well.

 

I don't think the example of giving her extra chores really connects. That really ends up being a punishment rather than a natural consequence. I think that if you're going to go that route, asking her to wash a bowl that hasn't been rinsed and has sat there for awhile is going to have more of an effect than just a sink of dishes. She needs to feel the correlation of not rinsing = big pain. Quite honestly, I'm a non-rinser and I handle 100% of our dishes. Dh is a great rinser, so much so that the dish or bowl already looks washed except that it's still sitting in the sink. It's just not something that I prioritize. I'd rather just wash the whole darn thing at that point, but I digress!

 

If all of the above doesn't work, I'd probably just tell her that this really is an issue for me. Clearly it doesn't bother her and may never bother her. However, since we live together we have to try to help the others remain sane. Therefore, she can't eat cereal anymore if she's not going to rinse the bowl. She can eat anything else, but I just can't deal with the cereal bowl. Or, she can eat anything that doesn't require a a bowl or dish to be rinsed. She can eat a granola bar or toast that leaves very little mess on a non-rinsed plate.

 

If it were up to me, I'd leave it be. There are more important hills to die on.

[mytwomonkeys]

i really like the book, "how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk". it is by adele faber. it is chalked full of real examples in dealing with children about your child's age. my little girl is younger; she will be 10 in early october, and the book has been a huge help for me.

 

you can read a preview of it at amazon:

 

http://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen/dp/0380811960/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314061632&sr=8-1

[Annabel Lee]

If all else fails, a somewhat natural consequence could be to designate one set of dishes as hers to use and clean, and she is only to use those (1 of each item). If her bowl is still in the sink the next morning b/c she didn't rinse it, then she gets to experience washing it out after it gets really gross, 1st thing in the a.m., when she was thinking she'd be sitting down eating.

 

I would try talking to her the way a PP suggested first - about nagging being a drag for all and brainstorming solutions w/ her. Also, you have to pick & choose your battles. It doesn't mean she gets to be irresponsible & make everyone else pick up after her, but some things are worth going after hard & immediately where others can be worked on more mildly, and gradually.

[Pamela H in Texas]

The way momof3littles said is how we do things. If you don't know if she is capable of coming up with a few ideas (or for a parent with a younger child), you can tell her earlier in the day that you'll be sitting down for the discussion after supper. That way, she has some time to think about it, but you're there to guide her through ideas later if she needs it. Sometimes, a few ideas are needed to jumpstart the process. Then you discuss why certain ideas are good or might be stinky. You or she can veto ideas that are distasteful. Then one or two are picked.

 

Now, you mentioned that there is more than this issue. One thing I made my littles are picture schedules (example on blog). Obviously, your daughter could have one with writing :) Then it is a matter of what she'll have done by X o'clock or bedtime or whatever. You will still have to deal with the bowl in the sink, possibly if she decides to just go down the list 20 minutes before the deadline instead of doing things along the way; but only until the list is to be finished.

[2squared]

I would be tempted to not let her eat cereal for breakfast.

 

One of our rules is that all your chores/things-mom-asked-you-to-do must be done before you eat next.

 

FWIW, habit guru Charlotte Mason would tell you to remind her differently. Instead of "You need to come back and put your bowl away and rinse it out" she would have you say something like "Dd, did you finish in the kitchen?" as a subtle reminder for your dd to make the mental connection herself. This only after having a chat with your dd about the situation and having you focus on this habit until it is mastered.

[goldberry]

Thanks for all the suggestions. This is difficult for me!

 

I think I need to go backward for a little while. Your suggestions about picture schedules and signs are things we used to do often when she was younger. I just keep expecting her to start owning some of these things. Or at least taking some responsibility on her own.

 

I'm noticing a pattern though, that when things start getting super tense and behavior out of control, often I'm expecting a level of maturity that she doesn't seem ready to deliver. When I go backward to more handholding, it both relieves the tension and then often jumpstarts her.

[justamouse]

Thanks for all the suggestions. This is difficult for me!

 

I think I need to go backward for a little while. Your suggestions about picture schedules and signs are things we used to do often when she was younger. I just keep expecting her to start owning some of these things. Or at least taking some responsibility on her own.

 

I'm noticing a pattern though, that when things start getting super tense and behavior out of control, often I'm expecting a level of maturity that she doesn't seem ready to deliver. When I go backward to more handholding, it both relieves the tension and then often jumpstarts her.

 

That's a very hard age for girls (and boys, too!) but they want to be treated as adults in some ways, but aren't ready in others. We tend to think of an all across the board way. :grouphug:

[Pamela H in Texas]

It is important to realize that some people ALWAYS do well with reminders and such.

 

I made the picture schedules in order to help the littles be more capable of independently take care of their business. However, one of the KEY reasons was so that one particular child would learn to be responsible for his medication to the degree possible at his age as well as within the confines of the rules of foster care. Part of THAT was because *I* need a reminder. Now, at a glance, I can see who has done what.

 

Another example. I met this man who actually had picture schedules (with words) in three key locations in his house so he would remember to do each thing that needed to be done (such as before he left in the morning or before bed).

 

Another example...I am trying to implement the Beyond Consequences model of parenting my littles. I need A LOT of reminders especially as they are a LOT more anxious currently so having a TON of behaviors (almost constantly, literally). So I get a daily reminder email from the website. I don't delete it so I can read it (and other ones) on my phone regularly. A few "sayings" can be done with nice writing on paper for the walls. Whatever it takes to help me not just send a kid to the corner or fuss/whine at him. I needed it even more today as I thought it was going to be better without the head LGM, but instead it made the other two nutso ALL DAY LONG.

 

Lots of people have Things to Do lists or outlines on what all needs to be done for a certain chore or an ongoing grocery list. Many people just need a visual reminder.

[Garga]

I wonder if it's mean or disrespectful to just give her one set of dishes for herself to be responsible for. If she chooses to leave them on the table and wash them right before she eats, then so be it.

 

But on the other hand, I would hate to see a dirty dish sitting there all day, and it might not upset her at all. She may be perfectly content to let that cereal bowl sit there all day and wash it in the morning...so it might not work to give her her own set of dishes.

 

Maybe give her her own set, but also sit with her brainstorming how she can remember to keep up with her set of dishes.

[cindergretta]

I feel for you and I feel for your dd!! I was (and still am to a certain degree) your dd. Some things just never register for me in a permanent way. :confused: OTOH, I am also you, the mom with the teens who just can't seem to remember the simplest things!!!! Aaaaahhhhhh!! :tongue_smilie:

 

This has been a good thread for me. :D

[Annabel Lee]

I wonder if it's mean or disrespectful to just give her one set of dishes for herself to be responsible for. If she chooses to leave them on the table and wash them right before she eats, then so be it.

 

But on the other hand, I would hate to see a dirty dish sitting there all day, and it might not upset her at all. She may be perfectly content to let that cereal bowl sit there all day and wash it in the morning...so it might not work to give her her own set of dishes.

 

Maybe give her her own set, but also sit with her brainstorming how she can remember to keep up with her set of dishes.

 

It was just something I remembered reading in some parenting book or other - when I had a lot of Faber & Mazlish and Sidetracked Home Executives, that kind of thing - on the shelf for ready reference. It wasn't for consequence, but for simplification. In the advice given in the book, there was something about each child having their own color, and they had one (full) set of dishes, one set of towels, etc., all in their color. Each child was to be responsible for taking care of his/her own things to the skill-level determined by the parent(s), and it would be easy to tell by color if someone didn't. You're right that it doesn't fully solve the problem. I was thinking it might develop an internal care about it, but you're also right that that outcome isn't guaranteed. It would be a last resort in my house, if ever at all, and would come after & with a lot of discussion.

 

I like the Charlotte Mason habit-forming method rec'd by a PP above better, though. Seems less punitive.

[ELaurie]

I want to recommend two fabulous websites to you - both are in my signature line (one is secular; one has CC) :001_smile:

[msjones]

Thanks for all the suggestions. This is difficult for me!

 

I think I need to go backward for a little while. Your suggestions about picture schedules and signs are things we used to do often when she was younger. I just keep expecting her to start owning some of these things. Or at least taking some responsibility on her own.

 

I'm noticing a pattern though, that when things start getting super tense and behavior out of control, often I'm expecting a level of maturity that she doesn't seem ready to deliver. When I go backward to more handholding, it both relieves the tension and then often jumpstarts her.

 

Just recently, with my 12 year-old, I (very reluctantly) had to consciously decide to go back to more supervision and more explicit teaching (and re-teaching) of expectations.

 

I had started assuming he would do x-task and then being so frustrated when he didn't. Now, I'm assuming he needs supervision, instruction, or re-teaching and then giving positive feedback when he does x-task. We are much happier.

 

I really want him to be responsible, helpful, motivated, and hard-working right now. But, in reality, he is none of those things unless I tell him to be. So, that's the kid I have today, and I love him, and I need to work with what I have.

 

My hope and prayer is that some day he will be spontaneously helpful and responsible. But today doesn't seem to be that day. I'm trying to be patient while teaching him and to nurture our relationship while he grows.

[LittleIzumi]

If all else fails, a somewhat natural consequence could be to designate one set of dishes as hers to use and clean, and she is only to use those (1 of each item). If her bowl is still in the sink the next morning b/c she didn't rinse it, then she gets to experience washing it out after it gets really gross, 1st thing in the a.m., when she was thinking she'd be sitting down eating.

 

All of the kids had an individual set of dishes when we moved into a house with no dishwasher. If we wanted to eat, we had to clean it! I think it's a great method.

 

And FWIW, I still need reminders and alarms for totally normal things :lol:.

[desiree77]

I heard a lecture last year on the pre-teen brain. According to this lecture, that I have not verified or further researched, the 11-14 yo brain is undergoing major re-mapping -- neural connections are being severed and rejoined. Children lose skills temporarily. It was an interesting lecture.

 

I have a 12 yo dd. If my major complaint was that she didn't wash out her cereal bowl, I'd be in heaven. ;) I'd personally let this one go. I call my kids back to the table when they forget, and I don't care much about rinsing. Someone's job is loading the dishwasher anyway, and that person can rinse (or not) as they load.