The Confederate Flag Rascist or Not?

[zenjenn]

Also it isn't *just* slavery but abuse and murder. If it was *just* slavery would it be seen differently? Maybe, but we know that isn't the case.

 

With most it was abuse and murder. With some it wasn't.

 

Your example of Thomas Jefferson - who kept slaves because his slaves didn't want to leave. He treated them well - like family members (and IIRC some speculate he even took one as a lover, not rape, a lover). If he were to free his slaves, what would have become of them? His slaves were freed in his will, and upon his death, some tried to kill some of those free slaves. :(

 

So even the best, most abolitionist-minded of people in a society that condoned slavery had limited options if they cared about the welfare and future of their slaves.

[Slartibartfast]

With most it was abuse and murder. With some it wasn't.

 

Your example of Thomas Jefferson - who kept slaves because his slaves didn't want to leave. He treated them well - like family members (and IIRC some speculate he even took one as a lover, not rape, a lover). If he were to free his slaves, what would have become of them? His slaves were freed in his will, and some of his family members tried to kill them. :(

 

So even the best, most abolitionist-minded of people in a society that condoned slavery had limited options if they cared about the welfare and future of their slaves.

 

But, he didn't PAY them now did he? Thomas Jefferson did not pay his slaves. He wrote, "A woman who brings a child every two years is more profitable than the best man on the farm."

 

That makes me sick.

 

There were slaves that were released on his death, the ones that had his blood. The rest were sold by his family members.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Sis

[Spy Car]

Jefferson did not free his slaves upon his death. A few, who were his children and his chattel property were freed. But almost all of his slaves (over a hundred) were sold upon his death to cover Jefferson's debts.

 

Bill

[leeannpal]

Sis,

 

We don't disagree that slavery was a hateful thing. What I do an issue with is that you are looking an historical event through modern eyes. Take your example about Thomas Jefferson. I agree that the statement you quoted sounds sickening today. At the time, it was a pretty common thought among certain groups of people. And are we to negate the positive things that Jefferson did because he owned, and most likely mistreated, his slaves? People and events of history cannot be so easily defined, especially from a "hindsight is 20/20" way of thinking.

[zenjenn]

If there's one thing we learned from the Stanford Prison Experiment is that most people, given the opportunity to possess power over others, will take that power and abuse it. Even with "enlightened" 20th century perspectives.

 

But we're supposed to malign one of the most enlightened men of the 18th century because he did not completely buck every cultural, societal, and economic norm of his day. :glare:

[Slartibartfast]

Sis,

 

We don't disagree that slavery was a hateful thing. What I do an issue with is that you are looking an historical event through modern eyes. Take your example about Thomas Jefferson. I agree that the statement you quoted sounds sickening today. At the time, it was a pretty common thought among certain groups of people. And are we to negate the positive things that Jefferson did because he owned, and most likely mistreated, his slaves? People and events of history cannot be so easily defined, especially from a "hindsight is 20/20" way of thinking.

 

But I deliberately used Jefferson because even by today's standards he would be enlightened.. he is one of those people whose mind shines through the ages for us to admire.

 

But he was a contradiction. He railed against slavery in his writing, he wrote *extensively* in regard to the sins of slavery but he did not raise a finger to stop it.

 

If he thought slavery was the best idea ever then it wouldn't be as puzzling, but he wrote against it.

 

But, he also saw himself as a benevolent father figure to people who he wasn't sure could after themselves...but then why would he order them hit?

 

It is because it is an enigma that it is interesting. I agree we can't understand it, but one has to read what he said, see what he did and wonder.....

[zenjenn]

We cross-posted Sis. I see I misunderstood you. I thought you were maligning Thomas Jefferson as a whole because of the previously quoted statement and your reaction to it.

[Slartibartfast]

If there's one thing we learned from the Stanford Prison Experiment is that most people, given the opportunity to possess power over others, will take that power and abuse it. Even with "enlightened" 20th century perspectives.

 

But we're supposed to malign one of the most enlightened men of the 18th century because he did not completely buck every cultural, societal, and economic norm of his day. :glare:

 

That is a good point, I did read about that experiment and it was truly chilling.

[Slartibartfast]

We cross-posted Sis. I see I misunderstood you. I thought you were maligning Thomas Jefferson as a whole because of the previously quoted statement and your reaction to it.

 

Oh! Sorry, no. I find him fascinating. :) I wasn't intending to malign him. He is just a good example of the contradiction.

[leeannpal]

But I deliberately used Jefferson because even by today's standards he would be enlightened.. he is one of those people whose mind shines through the ages for us to admire.

 

But he was a contradiction. He railed against slavery in his writing, he wrote *extensively* in regard to the sins of slavery but he did not raise a finger to stop it.

 

If he thought slavery was the best idea ever then it wouldn't be as puzzling, but he wrote against it.

 

But, he also saw himself as a benevolent father figure to people who he wasn't sure could after themselves...but then why would he order them hit?

 

It is because it is an enigma that it is interesting. I agree we can't understand it, but one has to read what he said, see what he did and wonder.....

 

But that is the point I am trying to make. He wasn't an enigma of his time. There were many people in power who had ambivalent feelings about slavery at the time. I disagre that most people today would think Jefferson was enlightened and not just because of the slavery issue.

[Spy Car]

Sis,

 

We don't disagree that slavery was a hateful thing. What I do an issue with is that you are looking an historical event through modern eyes. Take your example about Thomas Jefferson. I agree that the statement you quoted sounds sickening today. At the time, it was a pretty common thought among certain groups of people. And are we to negate the positive things that Jefferson did because he owned, and most likely mistreated, his slaves? People and events of history cannot be so easily defined, especially from a "hindsight is 20/20" way of thinking.

 

Racism in America did not end with the Civil War. There has been an on-going struggle ever since to give every American the full endowment of civil and human rights that they deserve.

 

We have made progress. Some of you may be too young to have witnessed how bad things have been for blacks in America in modern times, and with modern eyes. I am not too young.

 

And it really isn't over. The Confederate battle flag has flown front and center as the hate-flag of bigots in the struggles for (and against) Civil Rights. Up to today it is the symbol that segregationists, the Klan, neo-Nazis, and other violent White-Supremacist groups put front and center.

 

Bill

[Slartibartfast]

But that is the point I am trying to make. He wasn't an enigma of his time. There were many people in power who had ambivalent feelings about slavery at the time. I disagre that most people today would think Jefferson was enlightened and not just because of the slavery issue.

 

Of course there are political factions that would dislike Jefferson today. A lot of great minds are disliked and admired. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned Walter Williams, who I find rather tiresome. He is a conservative libertarian, I am a moderate democrat. We disagree.

[zenjenn]

I don't think it is that much of an enigma. He had a pivotal hand in delivering independence from a distant overbearing monarchy and laying the foundation of what was hoped to be an ethical nation that valued freedom. I think that's a tall enough order for one man without also adding an aspiration to dismantle the institution of slavery. I wouldn't say he "didn't lift a finger", at least, if the re-enactor Thomas Jefferson I heard speak at Colonial Williamsburg is accurate in his portrayal. Originally many of the founders tried to at least make the sale and trade of slaves illegal at the onset, but two colonies (Southern, of course) would not get on board, and the priority at the time was to have the universal support of all colonies for the Declaration. So the concession was made.

[zenjenn]

Spycar, I see you live in Los Angeles. I was raised/born in the Los Angeles are and lived there for 30+ years before moving to Alabama. I used to feel exactly as you do, and emotionally, I still have that gut reaction to the confederate flag (or ironically, even the current-day Alabama flag. It freaks me out at times when I expect to see the white-flag-with-the-bear I've seen all my life. Just a visceral reaction I can't explain, even though I've come to truly appreciate my community and Alabama as a state.)

 

But there IS a way of looking the confederate flag I really could not wrap my brain around until I lived in the South for a while. And by the way, in the city where I live, MOST people do not display it, but a few do (mostly those coming in from surrounding rural areas), and it is kind of accepted as just an archaic residual thing that is dying a natural death and but still tolerated with an understanding of Southern culture as it were.

[MelAR05]

But there IS a way of looking the confederate flag I really could not wrap my brain around until I lived in the South for a while. And by the way, in the city where I live, MOST people do not display it, but a few do (mostly those coming in from surrounding rural areas), and it is kind of accepted as just an archaic residual thing that is dying a natural death and but still tolerated with an understanding of Southern culture as it were.

 

 

Well said.

[MelAR05]

And it really isn't over. The Confederate battle flag has flown front and center as the hate-flag of bigots in the struggles for (and against) Civil Rights. Up to today it is the symbol that segregationists, the Klan, neo-Nazis, and other violent White-Supremacist groups put front and center.

 

Bill

 

I, for one, have not seen it used like this in the South. But if I did it would make me angry because I don't see it standing for any of those things. To me it stands for Confederacy.

 

I guess, I don't know, do White-Supremacist in maybe Idaho or other parts of the country use the Confederate flag? Really just asking. I don't know. Maybe in other parts of the country it is used for those reasons.

[FaithManor]

I, for one, have not seen it used like this in the South. But if I did it would make me angry because I don't see it standing for any of those things. To me it stands for Confederacy.

 

I guess, I don't know, do White-Supremacist in maybe Idaho or other parts of the country use the Confederate flag? Really just asking. I don't know. Maybe in other parts of the country it is used for those reasons.

 

 

In Michigan, the klan still uses it as a symbol. They still occasionally, "ride the river", as the saying goes here and will carry the confederate flag as well as leave one on the lawn of at least one person of non-white descent.

 

So, in my area, it is absolutely a sign of racial hatred.

 

Faith

[Spock]

Ya, it's made up of (((people))) from all the different states. It's not some monster from a bad Saturday afternoon movie. We elected these bozos! We are why the Federal Government and Local State Governments sux!

 

We didn't have much to choose from. We can only elect someone who runs, after all. (And for some reason, in recent elections there have only been minor differences between the candidates)

[tntgoodwin]

That is why voting in primaries is so important.

[Mercy_Me]

For the most part these boards are anonymous (I don't know anyone personally) so I appreciate your HONEST opinion.

 

We all know the history of the Civil War but what we all may not know is the negative connotation it has for those of African-American descent (much more so than other ethnic groups) for obvious reasons.

 

So if you do not have racist intents why would you display the flag in your home?

 

Here is my situation - DD13 (almost DD14) took her first private art lesson today in a fellow homeschooling mom's home. She has a nice studio in her basement. I stayed for the 2 hour instruction primarily in the adjacent family room where the flag hit me in the face and in the pit of my stomach. I was immediately uncomfortable and called several friends to get their perspective. So I took the advice of one friend and asked the mom "what does displaying the confederate flag mean to your family?"

 

Her reply "oh ... nothing ... my husband just likes many different things and he found the flag and wanted to display it. At first I was like well we don't represent the South .. we are actually Yankees....so I put up the Gettysburg Address right under the flag for context"

 

On the surface that sounds great and I really believe she is genuine. However, I can't get over someone being associated with any negative image (even if you view it as innocent) because of the controversy and the message you have to know it sends.

 

What say you? I'm sure everyone will answer from their own perspective and/or how they would handle this situation (which isn't relevant if you don't have my background). Try to think of people you know who display this flag and tell me what are their views (this is more accurate and honest of one's intent, generally speaking)? :bigear:

 

I live in the Bible Belt and have heard the arguments for the flag and against the flag my entire life. I agree with you 100%. You MUST know the message it sends to display it. So why even go there?

[Mercy_Me]

Racism in America did not end with the Civil War. There has been an on-going struggle ever since to give every American the full endowment of civil and human rights that they deserve.

 

We have made progress. Some of you may be too young to have witnessed how bad things have been for blacks in America in modern times, and with modern eyes. I am not too young.

 

And it really isn't over. The Confederate battle flag has flown front and center as the hate-flag of bigots in the struggles for (and against) Civil Rights. Up to today it is the symbol that segregationists, the Klan, neo-Nazis, and other violent White-Supremacist groups put front and center.

 

Bill

 

 

This.

[Ellesmere]

I, for one, have not seen it used like this in the South. But if I did it would make me angry because I don't see it standing for any of those things. To me it stands for Confederacy.

 

I guess, I don't know, do White-Supremacist in maybe Idaho or other parts of the country use the Confederate flag? Really just asking. I don't know. Maybe in other parts of the country it is used for those reasons.

 

I already posted, but since you asked, yes. It's not always displayed for that reason, but I have seen it that way. Even my caucasian family felt uncomfortable.

 

And I believe someone from the south expressed her reservations about seeing it displayed.

 

Sorry.

[Pretty in Pink]

The OP asked if the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism or not. I think that it is. Absolutely. I haven't read through the entirety of this thread. I did skim the first and last few pages.

 

I have not had the experience of viewing the Confederate flag as a black person. I hope that I am not speaking out of turn, but I would imagine that *most* black people see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism and that it offends them deeply. It offends me deeply and I am white.

 

Try to think of people you know who display this flag and tell me what are their views (this is more accurate and honest of one's intent, generally speaking)? :bigear:

 

I went to high school in the south, I have family in the south, and I've lived there as an adult. The people that I know personally who display the rebel flag are not shy about using the 'N word' in certain company and would have a heart attack if one of their children entered into a relationship with a black person, probably to the point of disowning that child. They also claim not to be racist and, to support their claim, will name black co-workers or friends with whom they get along. That, sadly, is my experience. When asked why they display a rebel flag, they say that it has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with pride in their southern heritage.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Pretty in Pink

[Teachin'Mine]

Out of curiosity, has anyone's opinion/reaction to the question posed in this thread changed after reading through the posts?

[UmmiSays]

I absolutely feel like the confederate flag is a symbol of racism.

 

I am a decendant of the Africans that were brought to this country against their will and then held in bondage for centuries and forced to work the land so that this country, more significantly the south, gained wealth and power.

 

I am a descendant of African-Americans who were victims of brutality, r*pe, m*rder, oppression, and injustice from the hands terrorist waving the confederate flag.

 

I am an African-American born and raised in the state where the confederate flag that flies proudly over the state capital. Racism is very much alive and part of the fabric of where I am from.

 

For all who hold tight to this flag and participate in anything connected to anything dealing with confederacy as a symbol of southern pride/state pride/heritage/remeberance/back in the good ole' days or whatever your code word is for it, are also holding tight to a horrific crime against humanity.

 

Trying to dilute the confederate flag's symbolism is a travesty of history.

[cdrumm4448]

I've always wondered about people who are so hot for states rights... what would you call it when the state treads on you? Will there be a call for county rights or maybe town rights? I fear my local & state government far more the the federal.

 

If you fear local "control", why don't you take office?

 

The idea behind local control is that people can run things the way they want to where they live. I guarantee that people in CA run things very differently than people in TX.

[littleWMN]

Well, I'm African American, and I live in Texas. Nearly every time I have come across a confederate flag, it means I have accidentally stumbled somewhere I am not welcome.

 

I get myself and mine out of there post haste and definitely make sure the sun doesn't set on us.

 

I most certainly see it as a racist symbol. It makes me EXTREMELY uncomfortable to see it.

 

I'm not AA, but have a dd who is. We live in the South. When I encounter the flag, I retreat quickly. Might be hastiness/paranoia, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Racism definitely is alive today so when I see a symbol like that, I pay attention.

 

I'm white and I'd be one of those who "has never known anyone racist", if not for my daughter. As a white person, I can't truly understand but I know now our society usually caters to "whites".

[pqr]

Walter E Williams said this:

 

"The flap over the Confederate Flag is not quite as simple as the nation's race experts make it. They want us to believe the flag is a symbol of racism. Yes, racists have used the Confederate Flag, but racists have also used the Bible and the U.S. Flag. Should we get rid of the Bible and lower the U.S. Flag? Black civil rights activists and their white liberal supporters who're attacking the Confederate Flag have committed a deep, despicable dishonor to our patriotic black ancestors who marched, fought and died to protect their homeland from what they saw as Northern aggression. They don't deserve the dishonor." .....is Williams now a bigot?

 

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/index.html

 

 

The last Confederate General to surrender was an American Indian. Was he a bigot?

 

http://www.civilwarhome.com/watiebio.htm

 

The fact is that the issue is much more complicated than some would make out. It is a shallow interpretation of history to make some of the blanket statements that have been seen here. Surely such an interpretation has is more at home in a public school than here, don't we as HSers look at issues more deeply and get beyond the "simple" history that is taught in PS. Do we not look for greater understanding? Isn't that one of the reasons that we HS? Maybe not....

 

The Confederate Battle Flag in the hands of lunatics is a symbol of hatred, but in the hands of others it is a symbol of pride in familiy, in history, in land and to many represents courage and love of home.

 

I revere the American Flag but she too is carried by groups such as the KKK, but this does not change the meaning of the flag, it simply demonstrtates the stupidity of those who who carry her in such a dishonorable way.

 

The KKK show dishonor to my flag when they fly her and I suppose thay do the same with the Confederate Battle Flag. They, being dishonorable and vile, sully everything they touch but only in their handling of it.

Edited August 5, 2011 by pqr

[Ellesmere]

I'm not AA, but have a dd who is. We live in the South. When I encounter the flag, I retreat quickly. Might be hastiness/paranoia, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Racism definitely is alive today so when I see a symbol like that, I pay attention.

 

I'm white and I'd be one of those who "has never known anyone racist", if not for my daughter. As a white person, I can't truly understand but I know now our society usually caters to "whites".

 

Thank you.

 

And in certain situations, no, it isn't paranoia. Meanwhile, I recognize that people fly it or display it and are not what anyone would call hatefully racist.

[cdrumm4448]

I'm lilly-white, and I see racial hate as a threat to everything I believe in.

 

The Confererate flag is a hate symbol. It causes some people to fear that they will be the objects of violence, and for others it is a way to openly express their bigotry.

 

Bill

 

I disagree. To some people, the Confederate flag represents the south and nothing more. Just because several posters here believe otherwise, doesn't make it true across the board.

[Teachin'Mine]

I absolutely feel like the confederate flag is a symbol of racism.

 

I am a decendant of the Africans that were brought to this country against their will and then held in bondage for centuries and forced to work the land so that this country, more significantly the south, gained wealth and power.

 

I am a descendant of African-Americans who were victims of brutality, r*pe, m*rder, oppression, and injustice from the hands terrorist waving the confederate flag.

 

I am an African-American born and raised in the state where the confederate flag that flies proudly over the state capital. Racism is very much alive and part of the fabric of where I am from.

 

For all who hold tight to this flag and participate in anything connected to anything dealing with confederacy as a symbol of southern pride/state pride/heritage/remeberance/back in the good ole' days or whatever your code word is for it, are also holding tight to a horrific crime against humanity.

 

Trying to dilute the confederate flag's symbolism is a travesty of history.

 

 

Unfortunately it is very much alive. :grouphug:

 

 

How can anyone read the above and still think it's okay to fly that flag? I just don't get it.

[littleWMN]

Thank you.

 

And in certain situations, no, it isn't paranoia. Meanwhile, I recognize that people fly it or display it and are not what anyone would call hatefully racist.

 

Definitely. I personally don't want to stick around and find out what the reasons for displaying the flag are. I guess I could understand it as part of a display. I've never encountered it like that. Like I said, my gut reacts when I see one. I had a "favorite" uncle that asked us not to ever come to his house again when my daughter was born. I'd lived 30 years and never knew he was racist. In that conversation, I'd describe his tone as vicious. It rocked me to my core that I thought I knew someone so well. Anyway, he doesn't fly a flag, but my point is that sometimes people aren't truly vocal about their racist views, until "threatened" in some way. I'm not interested in engaging racists that are so proud of the fact they fly a flag. Again, I understand it may be ignorance or another reason TO fly a flag, I just don't care to stick around and find out the reason.

[Harriet Vane]

Racism in America did not end with the Civil War. There has been an on-going struggle ever since to give every American the full endowment of civil and human rights that they deserve.

 

We have made progress. Some of you may be too young to have witnessed how bad things have been for blacks in America in modern times, and with modern eyes. I am not too young.

 

And it really isn't over. The Confederate battle flag has flown front and center as the hate-flag of bigots in the struggles for (and against) Civil Rights. Up to today it is the symbol that segregationists, the Klan, neo-Nazis, and other violent White-Supremacist groups put front and center.

 

Bill

 

Well said, Bill.

 

Racism is absolutely alive and well in America.

 

I have lived for fourteen years in an African-American neighborhood in the city (and spent two years prior to that volunteering in the housing projects), and I have many African-American friends. I know them personally, and I know the ugly things that have happened to my friends--including false arrest and false imprisonment, police harassment, medical malpractice, and myriad smaller hurts and injustices.

 

I can tell you that my African-American friends know not to try to do business or rent an apartment in certain areas. I can tell you that it is an absolute joke trying to get a police response to a 911 call in my area, and that our city services here are patchy at best and often just non-existent.

 

Racism happens on an every day level and on a systemic level, and when my African-American friends see a Confederate flag, they see a clear warning that they will not be treated well where that flag is flown. Folks who say they are celebrating their heritage close their eyes to the reality experienced by our African-American brothers and sisters both historically and now.

[Shawna in Texas]

I find it mildly amusing that the people I know (unfortunately, family) who have confederate flags (one flying, one tapestry(!!!), and seriously, a throw blanket for the couch) sure don't like it when they come to the big city and see Mexican flags everywhere. They think it's un-American. :lol:

[Spy Car]

I absolutely feel like the confederate flag is a symbol of racism.

 

I am a decendant of the Africans that were brought to this country against their will and then held in bondage for centuries and forced to work the land so that this country, more significantly the south, gained wealth and power.

 

I am a descendant of African-Americans who were victims of brutality, r*pe, m*rder, oppression, and injustice from the hands terrorist waving the confederate flag.

 

I am an African-American born and raised in the state where the confederate flag that flies proudly over the state capital. Racism is very much alive and part of the fabric of where I am from.

 

For all who hold tight to this flag and participate in anything connected to anything dealing with confederacy as a symbol of southern pride/state pride/heritage/remeberance/back in the good ole' days or whatever your code word is for it, are also holding tight to a horrific crime against humanity.

 

Trying to dilute the confederate flag's symbolism is a travesty of history.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

Bill

[Negin]

For all who hold tight to this flag and participate in anything connected to anything dealing with confederacy as a symbol of southern pride/state pride/heritage/remeberance/back in the good ole' days or whatever your code word is for it, are also holding tight to a horrific crime against humanity.

 

Trying to dilute the confederate flag's symbolism is a travesty of history.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I am shocked that some others may fail to see it as a symbol of racism. I just don't get it. :confused:

I haven't read most of the threads. I'm not even an American. I've lived in the U.S. for about 8 years of my life. I'm just basically in shock that this is even being discussed. It's so obvious to me, much as a swastika is seen as a horrific symbol.

[Osmosis Mom]

I just want to add that this discussion has been great. However, I don't get that people are comparing the Confederate Flag (which obviously symbols racism -just interact with the people hanging it...) to the Swastika which has a long, long history prior to being hijacked by Hitler. The two symbols are not the same.

 

I should add that because of the potent misunderstanding, then I myself would never use the swastika nor do I allow my kids to do so since way too many misunderstandings could ensure, but then again, we are not Indians and can easily avoid the conflict.

[Negin]

I don't get that people are comparing the Confederate Flag (which obviously symbols racism -just interact with the people hanging it...) to the Swastika which has a long, long history prior to being hijacked by Hitler. The two symbols are not the same.

I, for one, am not saying they're the same. I do believe that they both symbolize hate and racism. They're both disgusting, evil, sick, fill-in-a-suitable adjective.

 

we are not Indians and can easily avoid the conflict.

Maybe I'm not fully awake or maybe because I haven't read every single reply, I don't understand what being Indian or not being Indian has to do with this. :confused: Do you mean East Indian or Native American? I'm confused.

[Slartibartfast]

I, for one, am not saying they're the same. I do believe that they both symbolize hate and racism. They're both disgusting, evil, sick, fill-in-a-suitable adjective.

 

 

Maybe I'm not fully awake or maybe because I haven't read every single reply, I don't understand what being Indian or not being Indian has to do with this. :confused: Do you mean East Indian or Native American? I'm confused.

 

She means East Indian who use the Swastika in religious symbolism but since they are not Indian it isn't really an issue.

 

 

 

Some Native Americans also use the Swastika, which I am sure you know. I am just posting it cause someone will come along to correct me if I leave that out. :lol:

[Negin]

She means East Indian who use the Swastika in religious symbolism but since they are not Indian it isn't really an issue.

Some Native Americans also use the Swastika, which I am sure you know. I am just posting it cause someone will come along to correct me if I leave that out. :lol:

Good grief :scared:! I had no idea about both points that you raised. Where was I???

So, why on earth, would the evil-whack-job Nazis use East Indian symbolism as their religious symbol?

And why would Native Americans use the Swastika? I didn't know about that one either? When did they start using it? After the Nazis, which, sounds pretty bad to me? Or, before?

Thanks for clarifying.

This doesn't sound too good at all ... :banghead:

[TheAutumnOak]

I would feel very uncomfortable to the point of not trusting someone if I saw a confederate flag displayed on someone's porch or in someone's house...Every Black person or other minority I know personally (of course I don't know everyone, but you get my point) would feel the same...I just think people should keep that in mind if their intentions are not ill...It does give a very strong message to a lot of people in this country...Whether the message is true or false, or you agree with it or not, just know that is how it is perceived...

[Kate in Arabia]

However, I don't get that people are comparing the Confederate Flag (which obviously symbols racism -just interact with the people hanging it...) to the Swastika which has a long, long history prior to being hijacked by Hitler. The two symbols are not the same.

When we moved into our apartment in Chicago I noticed there were two red swastikas painted on the floor on either side of the door; the building was owned by Indians and populated mainly by Indians/Pakistanis. I was unable to remove the symbols, I don't know what they used to put them there! There was another one painted somewhere in the kitchen but that one came out.

 

..and I have seen it quite a lot when visiting India. It takes some adjustment to realize that it has some connotations in some areas, and quite different ones in others.

[tinag]

me understand this. I have read quite a bit on the Civil War but not enough to really understand all of it. This is a sincere question I have:

 

If the Civil War was fought over slavery then why would Lincoln say this:

http://www.lincolnstudies.com/documents/08221862.html

 

http://www.classicallibrary.org/lincoln/greeley.htm

 

Lincoln's Letter to Horace Greeley

 

 

 

 

Executive Mansion,

Washington, August 22, 1862.

 

Hon. Horace Greeley:

Dear Sir.

 

I have just read yours of the 19th. addressed to myself through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements, or assumptions of fact, which I may know to be erroneous, I do not, now and here, controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here, argue against them. If there be perceptable [sic] in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right.

 

As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.

 

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

 

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.

 

Yours,

A. Lincoln.

 

I live in the South but I am not from the South but I am married to a Southerner. (I am part Mexican and from Arizona) I have great friends who are AA and so do my children. I think the Confederate flag is flown by some to breed their hate, but I do believe it has a lot of sentimental value to people who lost relatives in the war.

I wouldn't fly the flag because it doesn't have a lot of meaning to me and I wouldn't want to fly just i case someone were to take it as racist.

 

(Also, I haven't been able to read the whole thread yet because I don't have time, so if this has been discussed you can just ignore this post.):)

 

ETA: I didn't mean to put this under any certain person's post.

Edited August 5, 2011 by tinag

[Mrs Mungo]

Good grief :scared:! I had no idea about both points that you raised. Where was I???

So, why on earth, would the evil-whack-job Nazis use East Indian symbolism as their religious symbol?

And why would Native Americans use the Swastika? I didn't know about that one either? When did they start using it? After the Nazis, which, sounds pretty bad to me? Or, before?

Thanks for clarifying.

This doesn't sound too good at all ... :banghead:

 

It is an ancient symbol, used in a variety of cultures waaaaaaaay *before* the Nazis used it. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

 

Eta: I have posted *many times* about the letter to Horace Greeley and Lincoln's intentions. I also posted about this further up thread. For the SOUTH the war was about slavery. For the NORTH it was about preserving the union. This has been discussed on this board over and over and my position has not changed. Search secession and you should find several threads on this. The purposes of THIS thread was to discuss whether we fing the confederate flag to be a symbol of racism. It is to me for all of the reasons I have mentioned in my other posts, but mainly: 1. The South seceded from the union in order to preserve their culture of institutional slavery, which included believing Africans to be like animals and 2. It has long been used as a symbol of racism, as I said before (as only one of many examples given in this thread), racists in Oklahoma used to put a confederate flag sticker over the Native American shield that used to be on our license plates. It does not compare to use of the swastika alone since the Confederate flag has no history or context before the South seceded.

 

Please forgive the brevity and any typos. I am typing from my phone and was up until 4 am last night getting ready for a big event we have today.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[unsinkable]

In Michigan, the klan still uses it as a symbol. They still occasionally, "ride the river", as the saying goes here and will carry the confederate flag as well as leave one on the lawn of at least one person of non-white descent.

So, in my area, it is absolutely a sign of racial hatred.

 

Faith

 

Really?

 

You'd think this would be all over the national news if that is the case.

 

I know if I knew about it, I wouldn't stop until the whole country knew about it.

[FaithManor]

Really?

 

You'd think this would be all over the national news if that is the case.

 

I know if I knew about it, I wouldn't stop until the whole country knew about it.

 

It actually was on the national news (well, Detroit News - not certain if anyone considers that "National") but it was several years ago. It was mentioned in the article because the KKK was holding a demonstration at our local courthouse and the sheriff was asking for assistance from other counties if needed in order to keep things from "heating" up.

 

But, you must have assumed from what I posted that this is some huge group riding horses in their white robes or something. They aren't! I should have explained more.

 

They don't do it in a large group anymore because they will be confronted by police. It is also not done on horseback. They ride on their motorcycles and if it weren't really late at night, and if they weren't choosing an non-white individual's yard to leave a confederate flag on, then most people wouldn't know that it happened anymore. It's not big news because the group has significantly dwindled in number and follow the peaceful demonstration laws. As for the above demonstration, it was canceled. Churches in our area got the word out and planned a counter demonstration. There were predicted to be about 25 KKK members, but the churches were going to produce over 1000 counter demonstrators.

 

I can tell you that I cannot produce the confederate flag that was left on our lawn 11 years ago when we inadvertently moved to the wrong neighborhood. The flag was left on our lawn after a dinner party we hosted for some of dh's friends at work. Multiple ethnicities were represented and the neighbors noticed. I burned the flag and made a spectacle of doing so in broad daylight on a weekend when I was certain my $%^&* neighbors would see it. We made a police report and were told nothing would be done. So, I burned the flag and dh bought a gun which we never needed.

 

But, this is the sum total of what this group does. We do have one high school in the county that struggles with a skin-head gang and some people assume that the adult KKK members sponsor/incite etc. the teens. I can't make that assumption because I have no idea if they do. We moved away from the "neighborhood" and have never looked back. However, I do know that our local high school bans both the confederate flag and swastika on clothing/notebooks, etc. Anyone with such a tatoo must keep it covered.

 

By in large, as far as we can tell, they no longer sponsor violence.

 

I'm sorry you don't think it happens because you haven't seen it on CNN or NPR or ABC. It's not big enough news. The Detroit News doesn't cover it and our local newspapers only mention it in the police blotter section if someone gets picked up for vandalism or something in the process of placing the flag in the yard. Occasionally someone does knock over some potted plants and such. Most of the time, I don't think anyone is actually caught. But, it does happen. The Free Methodist church we attended during the time of our above incident had to remove an elder because he was outed as a KKK member and the Free Methodist denomination has a church prohibition against secret societies.

 

I doubt that this is epidemic around Michigan. I just happen to live in an area that, as a child, had a HUGELY active KKK group - my dad was a town constable and had to deal with it and I was always very, very scared for him. The group is now actually very small, just the vestiges remain. But, they do like to do their occasional, "ride the river" on their stret bikes while waving confederate flags - it's done in groups of not more than five individuals usually. It's sick! However, they are pretty careful to keep their noses mostly on the right side of the law so nothing happens to them.

 

That's my experience. Sorry if it is offensive and you find it incredulous. I understand that. Had I not witnessed it or been on the receiving end of it, I wouldn't have thought that this kind of thing still happened anywhere. As I said, I burned the flag left on our lawn and I now have a rather visceral reaction to the display of the confederate flag as something other than a museum piece or picture in a historical book. I don't think I'm alone in that.

 

Faith

[Pretty in Pink]

There is a small but active group of klansmen in the town I went to high school in. They don't advertise their meetings, but everyone knows what is going on.

[unsinkable]

It actually was on the national news (well, Detroit News - not certain if anyone considers that "National") but it was several years ago. It was mentioned in the article because the KKK was holding a demonstration at our local courthouse and the sheriff was asking for assistance from other counties if needed in order to keep things from "heating" up.

 

But, you must have assumed from what I posted that this is some huge group riding horses in their white robes or something. They aren't! I should have explained more.

 

They don't do it in a large group anymore because they will be confronted by police. It is also not done on horseback. They ride on their motorcycles and if it weren't really late at night, and if they weren't choosing an non-white individual's yard to leave a confederate flag on, then most people wouldn't know that it happened anymore. It's not big news because the group has significantly dwindled in number and follow the peaceful demonstration laws. As for the above demonstration, it was canceled. Churches in our area got the word out and planned a counter demonstration. There were predicted to be about 25 KKK members, but the churches were going to produce over 1000 counter demonstrators.

 

I can tell you that I cannot produce the confederate flag that was left on our lawn 11 years ago when we inadvertently moved to the wrong neighborhood. The flag was left on our lawn after a dinner party we hosted for some of dh's friends at work. Multiple ethnicities were represented and the neighbors noticed. I burned the flag and made a spectacle of doing so in broad daylight on a weekend when I was certain my $%^&* neighbors would see it. We made a police report and were told nothing would be done. So, I burned the flag and dh bought a gun which we never needed.

 

But, this is the sum total of what this group does. We do have one high school in the county that struggles with a skin-head gang and some people assume that the adult KKK members sponsor/incite etc. the teens. I can't make that assumption because I have no idea if they do. We moved away from the "neighborhood" and have never looked back. However, I do know that our local high school bans both the confederate flag and swastika on clothing/notebooks, etc. Anyone with such a tatoo must keep it covered.

 

By in large, as far as we can tell, they no longer sponsor violence.

 

I'm sorry you don't think it happens because you haven't seen it on CNN or NPR or ABC. It's not big enough news. The Detroit News doesn't cover it and our local newspapers only mention it in the police blotter section if someone gets picked up for vandalism or something in the process of placing the flag in the yard. Occasionally someone does knock over some potted plants and such. Most of the time, I don't think anyone is actually caught. But, it does happen. The Free Methodist church we attended during the time of our above incident had to remove an elder because he was outed as a KKK member and the Free Methodist denomination has a church prohibition against secret societies.

 

I doubt that this is epidemic around Michigan. I just happen to live in an area that, as a child, had a HUGELY active KKK group - my dad was a town constable and had to deal with it and I was always very, very scared for him. The group is now actually very small, just the vestiges remain. But, they do like to do their occasional, "ride the river" on their stret bikes while waving confederate flags - it's done in groups of not more than five individuals usually. It's sick! However, they are pretty careful to keep their noses mostly on the right side of the law so nothing happens to them.

 

That's my experience. Sorry if it is offensive and you find it incredulous. I understand that. Had I not witnessed it or been on the receiving end of it, I wouldn't have thought that this kind of thing still happened anywhere. As I said, I burned the flag left on our lawn and I now have a rather visceral reaction to the display of the confederate flag as something other than a museum piece or picture in a historical book. I don't think I'm alone in that.

 

Faith

 

You know what --- whatever.

 

If you think a colloquial expression like "Really?" means I don't believe you then there is no point to continuting this discussion.

 

As for it being on the national news, there are tons of stories of racism that make the news all the time. because they should. A flashlight, no a klieg light needs to be shined on these heinous acts.

 

And if it offends you to the point that I would do everything to make sure it happens, so be it. Be offended.

Edited August 5, 2011 by unsinkable

[FaithManor]

You know what --- whatever.

 

If you think a colloquial expression like "Really?" means I don't believe you then there is no point to continuting this discussion.

 

As for it being on the national news, there are tons of stories of racism that make the news all the time. because they should. A flashlight, no a klieg light needs to be shine on these heinous acts.

 

And if it offends you to the point that I would do everything to make sure it happens, so be it. Be offended.

 

Okay, I'm sorry I miss-interpreted the intent of your comment. I did miss-read that. I am very sorry. It is very hard in online communication to read intent and as I said, because it happened to us, I have a strong, visceral reaction. My original post was to highlight that in our area, at least, the confederate flag is absolutely a sign of racism and hate.

 

Lest you think we didn't try to get it publicized, please don't think ill of us. I called the local newspaper and they weren't interested. I emailed the Detroit News and received no response. The police took a report, did not want the flag for evidence, and never called again. As a young mom, I wasn't certian what to do.

 

Faith

[Osmosis Mom]

It actually was on the national news (well, Detroit News - not certain if anyone considers that "National") but it was several years ago. It was mentioned in the article because the KKK was holding a demonstration at our local courthouse and the sheriff was asking for assistance from other counties if needed in order to keep things from "heating" up.

 

But, you must have assumed from what I posted that this is some huge group riding horses in their white robes or something. They aren't! I should have explained more.

 

They don't do it in a large group anymore because they will be confronted by police. It is also not done on horseback. They ride on their motorcycles and if it weren't really late at night, and if they weren't choosing an non-white individual's yard to leave a confederate flag on, then most people wouldn't know that it happened anymore. It's not big news because the group has significantly dwindled in number and follow the peaceful demonstration laws. As for the above demonstration, it was canceled. Churches in our area got the word out and planned a counter demonstration. There were predicted to be about 25 KKK members, but the churches were going to produce over 1000 counter demonstrators.

 

I can tell you that I cannot produce the confederate flag that was left on our lawn 11 years ago when we inadvertently moved to the wrong neighborhood. The flag was left on our lawn after a dinner party we hosted for some of dh's friends at work. Multiple ethnicities were represented and the neighbors noticed. I burned the flag and made a spectacle of doing so in broad daylight on a weekend when I was certain my $%^&* neighbors would see it. We made a police report and were told nothing would be done. So, I burned the flag and dh bought a gun which we never needed.

 

But, this is the sum total of what this group does. We do have one high school in the county that struggles with a skin-head gang and some people assume that the adult KKK members sponsor/incite etc. the teens. I can't make that assumption because I have no idea if they do. We moved away from the "neighborhood" and have never looked back. However, I do know that our local high school bans both the confederate flag and swastika on clothing/notebooks, etc. Anyone with such a tatoo must keep it covered.

 

By in large, as far as we can tell, they no longer sponsor violence.

 

I'm sorry you don't think it happens because you haven't seen it on CNN or NPR or ABC. It's not big enough news. The Detroit News doesn't cover it and our local newspapers only mention it in the police blotter section if someone gets picked up for vandalism or something in the process of placing the flag in the yard. Occasionally someone does knock over some potted plants and such. Most of the time, I don't think anyone is actually caught. But, it does happen. The Free Methodist church we attended during the time of our above incident had to remove an elder because he was outed as a KKK member and the Free Methodist denomination has a church prohibition against secret societies.

 

I doubt that this is epidemic around Michigan. I just happen to live in an area that, as a child, had a HUGELY active KKK group - my dad was a town constable and had to deal with it and I was always very, very scared for him. The group is now actually very small, just the vestiges remain. But, they do like to do their occasional, "ride the river" on their stret bikes while waving confederate flags - it's done in groups of not more than five individuals usually. It's sick! However, they are pretty careful to keep their noses mostly on the right side of the law so nothing happens to them.

 

That's my experience. Sorry if it is offensive and you find it incredulous. I understand that. Had I not witnessed it or been on the receiving end of it, I wouldn't have thought that this kind of thing still happened anywhere. As I said, I burned the flag left on our lawn and I now have a rather visceral reaction to the display of the confederate flag as something other than a museum piece or picture in a historical book. I don't think I'm alone in that.

 

Faith

 

Faith,

 

Your post really impressed me. I am stunned and then relieved to know of what you and your dh did to counter-act. Dd has a friend whose family is from India. About 12 years ago while living in OH, their neighbours scared them with KKK. I believe they burned something and left a flag or something in their yard. When they called the police, then they did not receive a response. Anyways, I forgot the details, but it was so scary and so blatantly ignored.