The Confederate Flag Rascist or Not?

[FaithManor]

Faith,

 

Your post really impressed me. I am stunned and then relieved to know of what you and your dh did to counter-act. Dd has a friend whose family is from India. About 12 years ago while living in OH, their neighbours scared them with KKK. I believe they burned something and left a flag or something in their yard. When they called the police, then they did not receive a response. Anyways, I forgot the details, but it was so scary and so blatantly ignored.

 

Oh Nadia, I am so sorry that your dd's friend went through that! When they burn something, it's gut-wrenching...the symbolism can't even be adequately described with the word "hate". It just doesn't seem to be strong enough. The police not responding...unconscienable, but also not unheard of in some areas. Without a police report, it's hard to pursue anything further.

 

My heart goes out to your dd's friend. So scary....

 

Faith

[Osmosis Mom]

Yes, Faith, it was scary to even listen to, quite frankly. However, she and her siblings took it the right way and grew up to become very strong and independent people who can't be pushed over. She told me the police knew about the doings of KKK in the area (or were part of it).

 

It is beyond me that stuff like this is still happening. I live here in NH and see the Confederate Flag all the time. I was wondering how this did not represent racism and why it has not been outlawed.

[OH_Homeschooler]

I think only one person in this thread has suggested that the confederate flag should be banned. I think that we all understand that the Constitution gives people the right to display symbols freely, however repellent and offensive they may be to others.

 

What people have said is that, if you display the Confederate flag, at a minimum they know that you don't care that you're doing something which the majority of people of color find offensive, hurtful, or even threatening. Which is fine. It's a free country and you are not legally obligated to care about that.

 

Many people have said that the Confederate flag is not associated with racism in their minds, and that they don't display it for racist reasons. Okay. But you seem to want it not to be associated with racism in other people's minds, either, and I don't think you're entitled to that. You can't make it into a neutral symbol, not after its history and widespread present use as a symbol of white supremacy. You can't make people not think about that stuff when they see you displaying the Confederate flag.

 

Thank you! I find it funny that the person who keeps harping on this idea that we think it should be banned when no one is really saying it should be, is the one who keeps preaching that issues like this aren't black or white. Don't you just love when people can't notice the inconsistencies in their logic?

[livingnlearning]

I guess I really don't see why anyone wouldn't err on the conservative side if they didn't have slanted racist ideas. :confused: I would much rather find other ways to express my love for the great things about southern culture instead of running the risk of offending, scaring or even unsettling someone whose experience leads them to see the negative connections with the Confederate flag.

Edited August 5, 2011 by livingnlearning
clarification

[Rivka]

me understand this. I have read quite a bit on the Civil War but not enough to really understand all of it. This is a sincere question I have:

 

If the Civil War was fought over slavery then why would Lincoln say this:

http://www.lincolnstudies.com/documents/08221862.html

 

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.

 

Eta: I have posted *many times* about the letter to Horace Greeley and Lincoln's intentions. I also posted about this further up thread. For the SOUTH the war was about slavery. For the NORTH it was about preserving the union. This has been discussed on this board over and over and my position has not changed.

 

Right. To make an analogy - and please note that this is just an analogy, not an attempt to equate Southerners and Nazis - the Nazis were strongly motivated to exterminate the Jewish people, but that doesn't mean that the Allies were primarily motivated to rescue the Jewish people. Clearly they weren't, as their shameful failure to help Jewish refugees demonstrates.

 

However, you would never point at anti-Semitism among the Allies as proof that the Nazis didn't really put all that much importance on the Holocaust. The motivations of one side of a conflict are not necessarily an equal and opposite match for the motivations of the other side.

 

Okay, back to Lincoln. Lincoln was a politician. He said different things in different places, and to different people, depending on what he thought would further his ultimate ends. He couldn't speak to Southerners or people in contentious border states like he was William Lloyd Garrison, because he was trying to calm them down and keep the Union together. He disppointed abolitionists because he wasn't as fiery as they were. He couldn't be, because he was trying to be the person that kept the country together.

 

Nonetheless, Lincoln was consistently anti-slavery in his personal views. Here is a letter he wrote to a personal friend who was a slaveowner in Kentucky. It starts out like this:

 

You suggest that in political action now, you and I would differ. I suppose we would; not quite as much, however, as you may think. You know I dislike slavery; and you fully admit the abstract wrong of it. So far there is no cause of difference. But you say that sooner than yield your legal right to the slave -- especially at the bidding of those who are not themselves interested, you would see the Union dissolved. I am not aware that any one is bidding you to yield that right; very certainly I am not. I leave that matter entirely to yourself. I also acknowledge your rights and my obligations, under the constitution, in regard to your slaves. I confess I hate to see the poor creatures hunted down, and caught, and carried back to their stripes, and unrewarded toils; but I bite my lip and keep quiet. In 1841 you and I had together a tedious low-water trip, on a Steam Boat from Louisville to St. Louis. You may remember, as I well do, that from Louisville to the mouth of the Ohio, there were, on board, ten or a dozen slaves, shackled together with irons. That sight was a continued torment to me; and I see something like it every time I touch the Ohio, or any other slave-border. It is hardly fair for you to assume, that I have no interest in a thing which has, and continually exercises, the power of making me miserable. You ought rather to appreciate how much the great body of the Northern people do crucify their feelings, in order to maintain their loyalty to the Constitution and the Union.

 

And here are some other notable quotes:

I have always hated slavery, I think as much as any Abolitionist.

--July 10, 1858 Speech at Chicago

 

Now I confess myself as belonging to that class in the country who contemplate slavery as a moral, social and political evil...

--October 7, 1858 Debate at Galesburg, Illinois

 

You think slavery is right and ought to be extended; while we think it is wrong and ought to be restricted. That I suppose is the rub. It certainly is the only substantial difference between us.

--December 22, 1860 Letter to Alexander Stephens

 

I say now, however, as I have all the while said, that on the territorial question -- that is, the question of extending slavery under the national auspices, -- I am inflexible. I am for no compromise which assists or permits the extension of the institution on soil owned by the nation.

--February 1, 1861 Letter to William H. Seward

 

It seems clear from his writings and speeches that Lincoln believed slavery to be profoundly wrong, but he wrestled with whether the had the constitutional right to attack the institution of slavery. Here's a letter he wrote to some Kentucky politicians in 1864:

 

My dear Sir: You ask me to put in writing the substance of what I verbally said the other day, in your presence, to Governor Bramlette and Senator Dixon. It was about as follows:

 

"I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel. And yet I have never understood that the Presidency conferred upon me an unrestricted right to act officially upon this judgment and feeling. It was in the oath I took that I would, to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States. I could not take the office without taking the oath. Nor was it my view that I might take an oath to get power, and break the oath in using the power. I understood, too, that in ordinary civil administration this oath even forbade me to practically indulge my primary abstract judgment on the moral question of slavery. I had publicly declared this many times, and in many ways. And I aver that, to this day, I have done no official act in mere deference to my abstract judgment and feeling on slavery. I did understand however, that my oath to preserve the constitution to the best of my ability, imposed upon me the duty of preserving, by every indispensabale means, that government -- that nation -- of which that constitution was the organic law. Was it possible to lose the nation, and yet preserve the constitution? By general law life and limb must be protected; yet often a limb must be amputated to save a life; but a life is never wisely given to save a limb. I felt that measures, otherwise unconstitutional, might become lawful, by becoming indispensable to the preservation of the constitution, through the preservation of the nation. Right or wrong, I assumed this ground, and now avow it.

[Ellesmere]

I disagree. To some people, the Confederate flag represents the south and nothing more. Just because several posters here believe otherwise, doesn't make it true across the board.

I'm asking this sincerely.

 

Do you not believe that the flag has been used as a hate symbol?

 

Just because the flag has been used as (ETA: only) a symbol of the south does not negate that it has indeed been used to signal hatred for non-whites.

 

Again, there is no sarcasm or argument in my question. I'm sincerely asking if you consider this.

 

 

You know what --- whatever.

 

If you think a colloquial expression like "Really?" means I don't believe you then there is no point to continuting this discussion.

 

 

I do see people use the expression, "Really?" in a disbelieving manner. Sometimes it is a sincere, "really, I don't know if I believe that. More info, please." or a sarcastic, "really? whatever!" Obviously your intent was misread ... but I don't see why you dismissing her with seems to me (not saying that it was your intent to sound impatient) an impatient "whatever".

[hollyandab]

This has all been interesting. I, personally, upon seeing the conf. flag, usually screw up my face as to why someone would fly it unless he/she were racist.

 

I grew up in a small town in Ohio (now live in KY) and was always taught (yes, even in my fundamentalist, BJU-loving Christian school and church) that the Civil War was about slavery, only about slavery, the South was wrong, the North was right. End.of.story.

 

However, my best friend growing up, obviously in the same environment, taught the same way, felt, believed the same way, recently moved to the Atlanta area. I couldn't believe my ears when, after living there for about a year, she told me she now saw the Civil War differently. She was "disgusted" that we were only taught the "one, Northern" view of the war, and how the South had been mistreated and it wasn't "only" about slavery and how it was the war of Northern Agression, and blah, blah, blah... I couldn't believe it! But after reading the majority of posts on here, I guess it just really underscores the varying views, especially depending on where you live/who you talk to...etc...and why I guess sometimes you just have to agree to disagree.

 

As far as the OP, if it were me, I would probably give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are displaying it as a piece of history...but, idk, I could probably go either way on this one. However, it's also a great opportunity to discuss this with your dc and help them understand why displaying this flag, even with non-racist intentions, is offensive. It's also a good opportunity to show dc that we Americans all have many views on many hot topics, but that we can all "get along" without having to go to the streets and bomb each other and kill each other as they do in so many other countries just because they disagree on something.

 

Anyhow, good luck, OP, with this one! It's a tough one! I guess it depends on how good of a teacher she is! Haha--just kidding!!!:D

 

Holly

[Alveraz]

I guess I really don't see why anyone wouldn't err on the conservative side if they didn't have slanted racist ideas. :confused: I would much rather find other ways to express my love for the great things about southern culture instead of running the risk of offending, scaring or even unsettling someone whose experience leads them to see the negative connections with the Confederate flag.

 

Absolutely! This is what I find most telling about many of the people in this thread. The continuous fight to defend or distort the obvious racist symbolism of the flag into some sort of "pride" thing is just an underlying symptom of apathetic feelings toward separatism or downright racism.

 

I wish some of you would just be honest instead of dancing around the bush.

[UmmiSays]

Absolutely! This is what I find most telling about many of the people in this thread. The continuous fight to defend or distort the obvious racist symbolism of the flag into some sort of "pride" thing is just an underlying symptom of apathetic feelings toward separatism or downright racism.

 

I wish some of you would just be honest instead of dancing around the bush.

 

 

:iagree:

[Harriet Vane]

I think only one person in this thread has suggested that the confederate flag should be banned. I think that we all understand that the Constitution gives people the right to display symbols freely, however repellent and offensive they may be to others.

 

What people have said is that, if you display the Confederate flag, at a minimum they know that you don't care that you're doing something which the majority of people of color find offensive, hurtful, or even threatening. Which is fine. It's a free country and you are not legally obligated to care about that.

 

Many people have said that the Confederate flag is not associated with racism in their minds, and that they don't display it for racist reasons. Okay. But you seem to want it not to be associated with racism in other people's minds, either, and I don't think you're entitled to that. You can't make it into a neutral symbol, not after its history and widespread present use as a symbol of white supremacy. You can't make people not think about that stuff when they see you displaying the Confederate flag.

 

:iagree: Well said indeed.

[Slartibartfast]

Good grief :scared:! I had no idea about both points that you raised. Where was I???

So, why on earth, would the evil-whack-job Nazis use East Indian symbolism as their religious symbol?

And why would Native Americans use the Swastika? I didn't know about that one either? When did they start using it? After the Nazis, which, sounds pretty bad to me? Or, before?

Thanks for clarifying.

This doesn't sound too good at all ... :banghead:

 

It was used for thousands of years before Hitler ever included it in the Nazi flag

 

Many many other cultures used it first, he used it because it is believed to have power or be lucky. In ancient germanic cultures it is postulated that it was a symbol for Thor.

 

Here is a wiki article about the symbol and different cultures who used it

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Edited August 5, 2011 by Sis

[ChocolateReignRemix]

:iagree: Well said indeed.

 

I +1 your :iagree:

[Negin]

It was used for thousands of years before Hitler ever included it in the Nazi flag

Many many other cultures used it first, he used it because it is believed to have power or be lucky. In ancient germanic cultures it is postulated that it was a symbol for Thor.

Here is a wiki article about the symbol and different cultures who used it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Thank you so much. :)

[Negin]

Absolutely! This is what I find most telling about many of the people in this thread. The continuous fight to defend or distort the obvious racist symbolism of the flag into some sort of "pride" thing is just an underlying symptom of apathetic feelings toward separatism or downright racism.

I wish some of you would just be honest instead of dancing around the bush.

So true and so very well said.

[mom2scouts]

I don't consider the Confederate flag to be racist, although I am aware that many people think it is and I understand that. If I saw someone displaying one, I would think they were either from the south or history/Civil War buffs. I admit that I think people become too easily offended by things that aren't meant to be offensive, so I have a hard time getting too upset by stuff like this.

[Ellesmere]

Definitely. I personally don't want to stick around and find out what the reasons for displaying the flag are. I guess I could understand it as part of a display. I've never encountered it like that. Like I said, my gut reacts when I see one. I had a "favorite" uncle that asked us not to ever come to his house again when my daughter was born. I'd lived 30 years and never knew he was racist. In that conversation, I'd describe his tone as vicious. It rocked me to my core that I thought I knew someone so well. Anyway, he doesn't fly a flag, but my point is that sometimes people aren't truly vocal about their racist views, until "threatened" in some way. I'm not interested in engaging racists that are so proud of the fact they fly a flag. Again, I understand it may be ignorance or another reason TO fly a flag, I just don't care to stick around and find out the reason.

First, :grouphug:

And as you pointed out, someone who is not being discriminated against may not realize the extent of someone's racist views.

 

I always knew some of my family was racist. And I married into a family with one member that would have had a tough time if my skin were any darker. A couple of racist family members have non-caucasian friends but if any had gotten too close -- interracial marriage, for example, they would have at least shown some discomfort. They aren't horrid people, really. Misinformed, unenlightened, judgmental, small-minded people that wouldn't participate in hate crimes, but are nonetheless racist. And I do love them without loving their opinions.

---

Anyway, it's easy to dismiss it as just a symbol of the south (and I feel badly for those who display it only as such and are wrongly assumed to be racist), but I would guess that one could only do that if he or she didn't feel inclined to hear the stories of hurt and pain of racial discrimination. Honestly, sometimes it isn't about bitterness. Sometimes, it's a healthy warning. For years, I had no idea why a certain group of people wouldn't give me the time of day and thought it was just because I wasn't cool or something. Finally someone enlightened me that it wasn't personal. I just never realized that someone would discriminate based on my ethnicity. Call me dense, but I grew up around caucasians only and the very few that showed prejudice against African Americans only.

 

And I say this as a non-caucasian, but again as one that rarely assumes any mistreatment is due to my ethnicity and has had the hardest time with people of the same ethnic background, not caucasians.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I don't consider the Confederate flag to be racist, although I am aware that many people think it is and I understand that. If I saw someone displaying one, I would think they were either from the south or history/Civil War buffs. I admit that I think people become too easily offended by things that aren't meant to be offensive, so I have a hard time getting too upset by stuff like this.

 

I am sorry, but if you don't understand that the Confederate Flag has been used many, many times as a symbol of hate, then I don't really know what to say.

Do you think there wasn't a message being sent when the state of South Carolina decided to fly it over the capitol building in 1962?

I have relatives that were attacked by dogs and beaten by the police while bystanders displayed their "southern pride" while waving that flag. You know why you don't see it as a symbol of hate? Because you CAN. You haven't been victimized by those who use it to represent their agenda.

Edited August 5, 2011 by ChocolateReignRemix

[Alveraz]

I am sorry, but if you don't understand that the Confederate Flag has been used many, many times as a symbol of hate, then I don't really know what to say.

Do you think there wasn't a message being sent when the state of South Carolina decided to fly it over the capitol building in 1962?

I have relatives that were attacked by dogs and beaten by the police while bystanders displayed their "southern pride" while waving that flag.

 

They'll never get it, I wouldn't bother. The problems with those who come from deep rooted families who have embedded racism in their history is they've been around it their entire lives and can rarely even point it out when they see it. I knew a few folks from the south that routinely called black people colored's in casual conversations. They weren't being hateful, it was simply part of their daily lexicon. When pointed out, they looked genuinely surprised that it was a problem.

 

These are also the folks who will vehemently state they have no problems with black folks whatsoever. However if asked about their own kid ever marrying a black person, they'd say, " Well I'm not racist but I would prefer it if they didn't."

 

There's a natural ignorance and subtlety about racism these days. Most racists don't even know they're racist. These are in fact the dangerous ones because they'd never admit it and usually express it in the voting booth, and in socio-economic decision making, but still tell you to your face, I'm not racist at all!

[Pretty in Pink]

They'll never get it, I wouldn't bother. The problems with those who come from deep rooted families who have embedded racism in their history is they've been around it their entire lives and can rarely even point it out when they see it. I knew a few folks from the south that routinely called black people colored's in casual conversations. They weren't being hateful, it was simply part of their daily lexicon. When pointed out, they looked genuinely surprised that it was a problem.

 

These are also the folks who will vehemently state they have no problems with black folks whatsoever. However if asked about their own kid ever marrying a black person, they'd say, " Well I'm not racist but I would prefer it if they didn't."

 

There's a natural ignorance and subtlety about racism these days. Most racists don't even know they're racist. These are in fact the dangerous ones because they'd never admit it and usually express it in the voting booth, and in socio-economic decision making, but still tell you to your face, I'm not racist at all!

 

Yes, this. I have relatives who insist that they are not racist because they have a dear friend who is black. Sure. Except that the only time that they call her is once every few years when they are going out of town and need to hire a pet sitter. Oh, and don't even mention the fact that the husband didn't even attend his daughter's first wedding because she was marrying a Mexican.

[Joules]

I am sorry, but if you don't understand that the Confederate Flag has been used many, many times as a symbol of hate, then I don't really know what to say.

Do you think there wasn't a message being sent when the state of South Carolina decided to fly it over the capitol building in 1962?

I have relatives that were attacked by dogs and beaten by the police while bystanders displayed their "southern pride" while waving that flag. You know why you don't see it as a symbol of hate? Because you CAN. You haven't been victimized by those who use it to represent their agenda.

 

I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread, but the confederate flag was added as the main body of the Georgia flag in 1956 as the Georgia legislators' way of making a statement against desegregation. I think the hurt and discomfort that people feel is not because it was used as a symbol in the Civil War, but that much more recently (in 1950s and 1960s) it was used as a sign of racism (even by some governments.)

 

I've lived around in GA for over 40 years. Racism is still alive and kicking here. And the confederate battle flag is a very common way to express that sentiment.

[goldberry]

I was raised in Texas and I consider the confederate flag to be offensive. Being proud of your southern heritage is great...why would you choose to focus on part of your heritage that was less than positive?

 

When I moved to Colorado, there is one person here in my town that flies it outside his house. This person owns a computer repair business, and it irks me enough that I would not use this person for business.

 

The only exception would be as part of a larger collection of civil war memorabilia. That wouldn't bother me.

[pqr]

They'll never get it, I wouldn't bother. The problems with those who come from deep rooted families who have embedded racism in their history

 

So let me ask you this.

 

If someone is extremely proud of a family member who fought in the Civil War, if they honor his courage and love of land and if they fly the Battle Flag in honor of this are they racists????

 

How about if they are direct descendants of this man or the troops who he led? Are they still racists???

 

http://www.civilwarhome.com/watiebio.htm

 

Your argument does not hold water because it is a blanket statement that indicates poor understanding of history. Were you to argue that "many" believe then you may have the start of a point but as you do not then.......

 

For what it is worth I have no ancestor who fought in the Civil War, I truly am impartial and because I have no "baggage" it is obvious to me that much of the railing against the Confederate Battle Flag is based on a poor historical understanding of events and on blatant stereotyping of individuals one might even say profiling.

 

Yes racists carry it but they also carry Old Glory.

 

Your comment that indicates that all who would revere the courage of their forefathers are racists is frankly offensive and bigoted. You make blanket assumptions and behave in the same manner as genuine racists who make statements similar to yours and also operate under blanket assumptions and stereotypes.

 

I am also dam% glad that the Union won so please do not accuse me of sympathizing with the South, but I do recognize courage, love of nation and land and accept that men of honor fought on both sides.

Edited August 5, 2011 by pqr

[MSNative]

 

So let me ask you this.

 

If someone is extremely proud of a family member who fought in the Civil War, if they honor his courage and love of land and if they fly the Battle Flag in honor of this are they racists????

 

How about if they are direct descendants of this man or the troops who he led? Are they still racists???

 

http://www.civilwarhome.com/watiebio.htm

 

Your argument does not hold water because it is a blanket statement that indicates poor understanding of history. Were you to argue that "many" believe then you may have the start of a point but as you do not then.......

 

For what it is worth I have no ancestor who fought in the Civil War, I truly am impartial and because I have no "baggage" it is obvious to me that much of the railing against the Confederate Battle Flag is based on a poor historical understanding of events and on blatant stereotyping of individuals one might even say profiling.

 

Yes racists carry it but they also carry Old Glory.

 

Your comment that indicates that all who would revere the courage of their forefathers are racists is frankly offensive and bigoted. You make blanket assumptions and behave in the same manner as genuine racists who make statements similar to yours and also operate under blanket assumptions and stereotypes.

 

I am also dam% glad that the Union won so please do not accuse me of sympathizing with the South, but I do recognize courage, love of nation and land and accept that men of honor fought on both sides.

 

Thank you. You responded much better than I was going to respond.

[elizabeth]

I am sorry, but if you don't understand that the Confederate Flag has been used many, many times as a symbol of hate, then I don't really know what to say.

Do you think there wasn't a message being sent when the state of South Carolina decided to fly it over the capitol building in 1962?

I have relatives that were attacked by dogs and beaten by the police while bystanders displayed their "southern pride" while waving that flag. You know why you don't see it as a symbol of hate? Because you CAN. You haven't been victimized by those who use it to represent their agenda.

 

You sum up so well what I have been thinking for some time. It is easy to divorce oneself from a symbol stating it has no negative connotations when you are not a member of the group that suffered under the symbol itself. I say fly whatever flag you want but be prepared for some harsh criticism and possible backlash from the offended group. What about a rainbow flag under the US flag to commemorate the end of "Don't ask, don't tell" in the armed forces...yeah I thought so. Now there is a problem, No??? That is history that" only gay" people care about so it can be marginalized and stigmatized as Un- American but the same people will defend to the bitter end the "historical" non racist value of a symbol of racial hatred. YOu are either willing to tolerate symbolic speech or you are not. That includes speech that is distasteful to you personally . Unless said speech incites violence like....a confederate flag might in a parade. Here is some case law in the unlikely event any one wishes to know more about symbolic speech.

http://www.freedomforum.org/packages/first/curricula/educationforfreedom/supportpages/L08-CaseSummaryTinker.htm This is a great site for teaching about First Amendment issues. I stand firmly with the position that nearly all speech is protected unless it is intended to threaten others with violence. That said, fly your freak flag but be prepared to face consequences including being a social pariah, being called a racist, gay rights activist etc. If you cannot take the heat do not speak even if only in symbolic language. Otherwise fly whatever the he** you want and I can call you whatever it is I think your "speech "warrants. I cannot restrict yours nor you mine. So I have my rainbow flag up and you have your stars and bars...

[Jennifer3141]

Yes, this. I have relatives who insist that they are not racist because they have a dear friend who is black. Sure. Except that the only time that they call her is once every few years when they are going out of town and need to hire a pet sitter. Oh, and don't even mention the fact that the husband didn't even attend his daughter's first wedding because she was marrying a Mexican.

 

Are your relatives my father??? He isn't racist because he grew up on Long Island but I'd better never have dated a black man! :glare:

 

And "half breeds" would have killed my grandmother.

[Spy Car]

 

So let me ask you this.

 

If someone is extremely proud of a family member who fought in the Civil War, if they honor his courage and love of land and if they fly the Battle Flag in honor of this are they racists????

 

How about if they are direct descendants of this man or the troops who he led? Are they still racists???

 

 

What if the family in question was German and they felt proud of a relative/ancestor who fought for the Third Reich.

 

Would you embrace their flying a Nazi flag to honor the memory of their loved one?

 

Bil

[pqr]

What if the family in question was German and they felt proud of a relative/ancestor who fought for the Third Reich.

 

Would you embrace their flying a Nazi flag to honor the memory of their loved one?

 

Bil

 

 

How about answering the question with an answer not another question.

 

To rephrase: are they a racists because they fly the Battle Flag? Given that Watie Stand was an American Indian does that change your opinion?

Edited August 6, 2011 by pqr

[Spy Car]

How about answering the question with an answer not another question.

 

You ask questions, I ask questions.

 

How about answering mine?

 

Bill

[pqr]

You ask questions, I ask questions.

 

How about answering mine?

 

Bill

 

 

You first.

[Spy Car]

You first.

 

Since the original question was not aimed at me, the rules are you go first. Then I will happily address the question you raised, but that was not aimed at me.

 

Bill

[pqr]

Since the original question was not aimed at me, the rules are you go first. Then I will happily address the question you raised, but that was not aimed at me.

 

Bill

 

Ahhh but you chose to quote it, so I await your answer.

[MissKNG]

For heaven's sake! I'll answer Bill's question first!!!

 

No, I would not fly a Nazi flag to honor my relatives that were Nazis in WWII. If I wanted to honor my German heritage, I would just fly a regular German flag.

[Spy Car]

Ahhh but you chose to quote it, so I await your answer.

 

I quoted it to ask you a question. Respond or don't. Just don't play childish games.

 

Bill

[elizabeth]

What if the family in question was German and they felt proud of a relative/ancestor who fought for the Third Reich.

 

Would you embrace their flying a Nazi flag to honor the memory of their loved one?

 

Bil

 

:hurray: That is an excellent point. The only legal difference would be that it is considered hate speech and likely to incite violence, thus not protected by First Amendment if push came to shove. When the case involving the right to be treated equally in the ability to marry regardless of the parties gender, a group came to town to express their dispeasure. There were from Idaho. Nothing like a rowdy good ol Sieg Heil!! over and over to make you appreciate the local police officers. Unfortunately that day was an ethics course mandated by the state bar association so dh had to listen to that crap for an hour. A melee broke out and they were arrested for a failure to secure a permit for gathering. Speech cannot hurt you physically but can certainly remove any question as to your intelligence. The statistics on racists and their relative levels of education is quite revealing.

Edited August 6, 2011 by elizabeth

[pqr]

I quoted it to ask you a question. Respond or don't. Just don't play childish games.

 

Bill

 

 

That is rich!!!!

 

 

No need to be insulting and petulant it makes for a poor argument.

Edited August 6, 2011 by pqr

[elizabeth]

 

http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/spring03/bueneventura/rules.htm Marquess of Queensberry anyone??

[elizabeth]

Ha!

[MSNative]

Ha!

 

Great minds think alike. I was just searching for fun kilt pics. You found a much better one. I found a chick in a bikini/kilt confederate flag combo. Eek!

[goldberry]

For heaven's sake! I'll answer Bill's question first!!!

 

No, I would not fly a Nazi flag to honor my relatives that were Nazis in WWII. If I wanted to honor my German heritage, I would just fly a regular German flag.

 

:iagree:

[Ellesmere]

I was raised in Texas and I consider the confederate flag to be offensive. Being proud of your southern heritage is great...why would you choose to focus on part of your heritage that was less than positive?

 

When I moved to Colorado, there is one person here in my town that flies it outside his house. This person owns a computer repair business, and it irks me enough that I would not use this person for business.

 

The only exception would be as part of a larger collection of civil war memorabilia. That wouldn't bother me.

 

Thank you for sharing your perspective as a southerner.

 

Your view seems reasonable.

 

Up north where I am, the flag is most certainly used as a hate symbol or (maybe) sign of southern heritage. I'm not running the other way, depending on where I see it.

 

But I'm still (really, not sarcastically) wondering why people are arguing about this as if people are being overly sensitive if they have been hurt by racial discrimination.

[mommymilkies]

I would have about the same reaction as seeing Nazi flag displayed it a person's home.

 

"States Rights" is a code-word for the right of some people (White people) to enslave other people (Black people).

 

No way around that.

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

 

But maybe I'm biased since my Great Great Grandfather died fighting for the Union. ;)

[Slartibartfast]

 

So let me ask you this.

 

If someone is extremely proud of a family member who fought in the Civil War, if they honor his courage and love of land and if they fly the Battle Flag in honor of this are they racists????

 

How about if they are direct descendants of this man or the troops who he led? Are they still racists???

 

http://www.civilwarhome.com/watiebio.htm

 

Your argument does not hold water because it is a blanket statement that indicates poor understanding of history. Were you to argue that "many" believe then you may have the start of a point but as you do not then.......

 

For what it is worth I have no ancestor who fought in the Civil War, I truly am impartial and because I have no "baggage" it is obvious to me that much of the railing against the Confederate Battle Flag is based on a poor historical understanding of events and on blatant stereotyping of individuals one might even say profiling.

 

Yes racists carry it but they also carry Old Glory.

 

Your comment that indicates that all who would revere the courage of their forefathers are racists is frankly offensive and bigoted. You make blanket assumptions and behave in the same manner as genuine racists who make statements similar to yours and also operate under blanket assumptions and stereotypes.

 

I am also dam% glad that the Union won so please do not accuse me of sympathizing with the South, but I do recognize courage, love of nation and land and accept that men of honor fought on both sides.

 

The Cherokee were pro-slavery, the ones in Oklahoma were in the Confederacy and had slaves. Have you heard of the "Free-Men"

 

He is a controversial figure because he signed the treaty that lead to the Trail of Tears and also there was a large split in the Cherokee after the war over the North/South issue. He was a leader of the "south" faction. I am sure his descendants are proud...but he is controversial nonetheless.

 

 

How do people have a poor understanding of events, exactly?

Edited August 6, 2011 by Sis

[lovelaughs_times_three]

 

So let me ask you this.

 

If someone is extremely proud of a family member who fought in the Civil War, if they honor his courage and love of land and if they fly the Battle Flag in honor of this are they racists????

 

How about if they are direct descendants of this man or the troops who he led? Are they still racists???

 

Yes racists carry it but they also carry Old Glory.

 

 

 

I am one who feels that the Confederate Flag has become a racist symbol. I am one who feels that, AT BEST, it is a show of lack of care and compassion for those who have been mistreated in history (and probably by some of my forefathers).

 

I have been reading these threads and have become more convinced of this, especially as the point has been made to compare it to the swastika.

 

 

But - I just thought of this point when I read the above quote about the racists also carrying "Old Glory."

 

 

 

Those same racists also carry the Cross of Christ. *yikes*

 

 

 

Just a point to add to the fuel. Just a thought I had not realized until I read that point. It makes me re-think this again. That maybe it is possible for the symbol I see as hate, to mean something very different to another.

 

 

Just a thought.....

[Dirtroad]

......

"States Rights" is a code-word for the right of some people (White people) to enslave other people (Black people).

 

No way around that.

 

Bill

 

That is NONSENSE and completely without logic, without any consideration of people different from yourself, and a extremely biggoted comment. I assume you did it just to start a fight... but it is appalling, disrepectful, and uninformed... and rather hateful.:leaving:

[Dobela]

It was used for thousands of years before Hitler ever included it in the Nazi flag

 

Many many other cultures used it first, he used it because it is believed to have power or be lucky. In ancient germanic cultures it is postulated that it was a symbol for Thor.

 

Here is a wiki article about the symbol and different cultures who used it

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

I have a reproduction copy of a Sears Catalog from the early 1900s (1906 if I remember right). In this catalog are several pieces of jewelry available for purchase with the Swastika as the predominate design. In that catalog it was refered to as a symbol of good fortune.

[obsidian]

That is NONSENSE and completely without logic, without any consideration of people different from yourself, and a extremely biggoted comment. I assume you did it just to start a fight... but it is appalling, disrepectful, and uninformed... and rather hateful.:leaving:

 

:001_huh: His comment seems to be a fairly valid interpertation of why the South seceded. Did you read the original documents that Sis posted about this issue earlier in the thread? I am also curious how it qualifies as an appalling, bigoted, and ignorant statement.

 

ETA: I think you are taking Bill's statement out of context.

Edited August 6, 2011 by STEM
Reread comment

[rocketgirl]

i think the reason that it is a negative symbol today is that it still offends people today: it represents a time in history and a location in history that relied on slavery and fought to keep slavery

 

i knew that even in public high school

[Heather in Neverland]

I understand that many find the confederate flag to be offensive.

 

I understand that many see it as a symbol of southern pride.

 

I am from the south and I have loads of southern pride but I would never fly the confederate flag.

 

Whether or not I agree that it is a racist symbol is irrelevant to me. As a Christian I would not fly it out of compassion for those it offends. The bible tells us to NOT be a stumbling block to others.

 

If I had NO IDEA that it was offensive to anyone that would be one thing. But everyone knows that it is.

 

It is the same reason that I dress appropriately and cover my hair when I visit certain areas of Malaysia. I don't personally agree with the idea that woman should cover every inch of their body BUT I know that many here would fins my American way of dressing offensive.

 

Because I know that, I do something about it. I think it is the Christian thing to do. YMMV.

 

Fr what it's worth, my brother who tattooed the confederate flag on his arm in his teen years regrets it now that he is an adult.

[Alveraz]

I have a reproduction copy of a Sears Catalog from the early 1900s (1906 if I remember right). In this catalog are several pieces of jewelry available for purchase with the Swastika as the predominate design. In that catalog it was refered to as a symbol of good fortune.

 

So what? If the pattern of the confederate flag was a peaceful sign of wood fairies in 1800 it would still symbolize the pro slavery movement and racism today. The most powerful and famous use of any symbol wins out, and that's what we're faced with. For people to be justifying the use of a swastika or confederate flag because it was also used for "other things" are just being delusional. They both symbolize a belief system founded on racism. Period.

[Slartibartfast]

So what? If the pattern of the confederate flag was a peaceful sign of wood fairies in 1800 it would still symbolize the pro slavery movement and racism today. The most powerful and famous use of any symbol wins out, and that's what we're faced with. For people to be justifying the use of a swastika or confederate flag because it was also used for "other things" are just being delusional. They both symbolize a belief system founded on racism. Period.

 

They were just being conversational. They responded to my post regarding some of the history. We don't need to get all excited