Menu
Jump to content

What's with the ads?

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Recommended Posts

I knew you would understand! I think its pretty unanimous among AAs, and I thought this was common knowledge to everyone else. So if you display this in your home either you are ignorant (b/c of your limited dealings with people of color) or you just don't care and this is my point.

 

I hope some people have had their eyes opened. This is what matters. Honestly, the rest is sort of a moot point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, I'm African American, and I live in Texas. Nearly every time I have come across a confederate flag, it means I have accidentally stumbled somewhere I am not welcome.

 

I get myself and mine out of there post haste and definitely make sure the sun doesn't set on us.

 

I most certainly see it as a racist symbol. It makes me EXTREMELY uncomfortable to see it.

 

:iagree: I'm NOT African American, but this is certainly the reasoning behind the people I've known who have displayed it. I grew up in a very blue collar, very small, country town. A confederate flag was flown as a warning to those who weren't welcome...usually non white people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I really don't want to sit at this woman's house for 2 hours every Wednesday to keep an eye on things and I don't believe anyone will harm or mistreat my child but is my belief worth the doubt in the back of my mind?

 

No. If you feel uncomfortable, then don't go. I would tell the woman why you are deciding not to continue lessons with her in a kind, informative way. Or you could choose to tell her how you feel about the flag and based upon her response, then decide what you want to do. :grouphug:

 

It's not an easy call for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, I'm African American, and I live in Texas. Nearly every time I have come across a confederate flag, it means I have accidentally stumbled somewhere I am not welcome.

 

I get myself and mine out of there post haste and definitely make sure the sun doesn't set on us.

 

I most certainly see it as a racist symbol. It makes me EXTREMELY uncomfortable to see it.

 

:iagree:And this is exactly why I would never display one (possibly for a historical time period display, but probably not). I have and have had too many AA friends to be able to display one knowing how much it would offend one of those friends if they came to my home.

 

However, I just wanted the OP to be aware that just because someone has one in their house would not be an automatic red flag to me that they were racist. I have been around people who displayed them with racist intent and others who just were proud to be from the South.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ahhh, "history." What a wonderful way for the winners to inform everyone what the losers really thought and were motivated by.

 

I pulled this out so I could quote from the various secession documents, but I see that Sis beat me to it. The losers of this particular war were not shy about explaining their motivations and guiding principles. Here's a long excerpt from a 1861 speech by CSA Vice-President Alexander Stephens:

 

The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution -- African slavery as it exists amongst us -- the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. [uS President Thomas] Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted.

The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

 

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind -- from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity.

 

One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics; their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just -- but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails.

 

I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.

 

That was long, so let me just repeat the most critical part:[/i]

 

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

 

 

The "states' right" the Confederacy was concerned about was the right for some people to own other people as property. You can pretty it up however you like, and people certainly have tried to do so over the years, but before they lost the war they had no compunction about stating it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, it is racist.

 

The confederate flag is a symbol of the intentions behind the Civil War.

 

It is obvious that the number one reason for secession was slavery, thus the Confederate flag to me is a symbol for racism.

 

If I went to someone's home and they had the flag displayed that would end any further relationship with that person. I would not allow my children, who are NA, to be around someone who holds such values.

 

Your friend sounds a bit goofy, I would try and explain a bit more about my feelings but I wouldn't be comfortable with visiting a home where that flag was displayed

 

There were two main causes-the right to own slaves and the state sovereignty. Unlike others who see "states rights" as a red herring to cover up fr the issue of slavery, most Southerners at the time were actually more concerned about teh power of the national government. Less than 25% of white southerners ever owned slaves, so many Southerners disagreed with the right of Congress to side with the the North in economic matters rather than the South.

 

I am in no way racist, and I always hesitate to get involved in these sort of North/South Civil War arguments, but there is one thing I just feel compelled to point out. While slavery was illegal in the North, at the time of the beginning of the Civil War, many Northerners were not anti-slavery. In fact, "Mr. Lincoln's War" was not all that popular in the North during the first year or so. I also want to point out that slavery was very much a Northern issue as well. The South wanted to keep slavery in order to sustain the cotton economy. The North also wanted this to an extent, especially those who owned and/or wrked in textile mills. Who was the South selling the slave grown/picked cotton to? The Northern mills and Great Britain. So those who think that people in the North played no role in slavery are sadly mistaken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We live in the south. People here like the confederate flag (I don't, personally, nor does my DH who is 'from' here) - it makes them proud to be from the south or something. Idk, I honestly think it's kinda stupid. But to a lot of them its like a redneck pride thing :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a hot issue for me too. I think it is racist in the fact that it is insensitive to, ignores, or (at worse) is completely hostile to the feelings it stirs and the impact it has on black Americans. The irony for me is that my in-laws are HUGE into Civil War re-enactments. They act like it is just an interest in "history", but watch them react when they have to play on the "Yankee" side! During the re-enactments, it is obvious who the announcers and the crowd favors. "Give our boys some encouragement out there!" Rebel yells, especially if it is a re-enactment where the South wins!

My mil and fil have the Rebel flag displayed all over their house, on their business cards, on their liscence plates...everywhere. It makes me squirm.

They have magazines on the "real issues" of the war, how it was not about slavery, etc.

I want my children to have a wonderful relationship with their grandparents, so I let them participate in some of the re-enactments, and I don't make an issue about the flag being displayed everywhere. But this year, I am planning on teaching my kids about the Civil War and making sure we really delve in to the slavery issue, and how a Black American might have a VERY different view of the "glory of the South." (this is what I LOVE about homeschooling. I can really spend time on this issue with my kids to balance out some of the views they have been given by their grandparents! :)

 

The sad thing is, I have adopted a girl from China and I have considered adopting again. I don't feel like I can adopt a child from Africa because of my in-laws. I wouldn't want him/her to grow up, learn what really happened in the South, and then be hurt by her own grandparents insensitivity.

 

My in-laws are not hostile, out-spoken racists. They would say things like "we have lots of friends who are black." :glare: My fil, when I was venting about how I felt like it was terrible how they displayed blacks in the movie "Gone With The Wind", stated this: "How do you know they didn't enjoy being slaves?" What????

 

They (my mil & fil) treat all people with kindness and dignity (thank goodness!). But I just can't see it their way. I love living in the South. I am proud of many of the characteristics of the Southern way of life. But I am NOT proud of the way our entire country treated the phrase "all men are created equal." And for the South to decide that the luxuries they had on the backs of men and women who deserved to be free, was a fight they were willing to die for.....that's just not a South I can celebrate.

 

Oh, and I know, before it is said, that it wasn't like the North was all enlightened either. I know there was racism everywhere.

 

I just don't like that flag. It seems like it is finding glory where there was ignorance and shame.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There were two main causes-the right to own slaves and the state sovereignty. Unlike others who see "states rights" as a red herring to cover up fr the issue of slavery, most Southerners at the time were actually more concerned about teh power of the national government. Less than 25% of white southerners ever owned slaves, so many Southerners disagreed with the right of Congress to side with the the North in economic matters rather than the South.

 

I am in no way racist, and I always hesitate to get involved in these sort of North/South Civil War arguments, but there is one thing I just feel compelled to point out. While slavery was illegal in the North, at the time of the beginning of the Civil War, many Northerners were not anti-slavery. In fact, "Mr. Lincoln's War" was not all that popular in the North during the first year or so. I also want to point out that slavery was very much a Northern issue as well. The South wanted to keep slavery in order to sustain the cotton economy. The North also wanted this to an extent, especially those who owned and/or wrked in textile mills. Who was the South selling the slave grown/picked cotton to? The Northern mills and Great Britain. So those who think that people in the North played no role in slavery are sadly mistaken.

 

Who said the North played no part in slavery?

 

It doesn't matter who owned slaves, it is just like the large number of people who do not vote in a manner that would be in their best financial interests. It's the American dream. People don't vote in regard to where they are, they vote in regard to where they WANT to be.

 

I quoted primary documents, feel free to do the same. The secession documents say "slavery"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the Confederate flag is racist. We're mostly staunchly proud northerners up here and when we see the Confederate flag, we know two things... our direct ancestors WON that war and some idiot is flying a loser flag and the second thing is, those aren't people we want to hang around.

 

The only thing worse would be a swastika.

 

We can't run or drive away fast enough from homes that display both. Luckily for us, those houses all live in a weird little town we don't drive through unless every other road up here is blocked by zombies. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I respectfully disagree (don't want to derail this thread, though).

 

When I taught American History, I had my students keep track of all the arguments between the southern states/colonies and the northern states/colonies. The North and South were fighting from the beginning of our nation over issue after issue.

 

IMO, historians debate this issue all the time, the Civil War was fought over states' rights in the broader sense with slavery being the specific issue that ignited the war. The South thought that the Constitution did not give the Federal governemnt the power to tell them what to do in their own state, specifically about slavery. The Northern states sided with the Federal government for a lot of factors (religious background, economics, etc.). When Lincoln gets elected without any Southern support, the Southern states felt like the Federal government had enough power to ruin them economically so they seceded.

 

I don't agree with slavery (it is an atrocity). I think the South was 100% in the wrong for owning slaves, but the broad issue is state rights vs. Federal rights which we are still dealing with today.

 

IMO, when people say that the Civil War was just about slavery, I wince a little, because it was a much more complex war than just one issue.

:iagree:I also taught American History and the Civil War time period on many occasions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, OP, sorry for the rant. Now I will try to answer your actual question...

 

I would decide if this is something you can live with, or something you can not. If you can not, I'd consider writing a letter, or talking to your homeschooling friend. She may need another's POV to really understand how something that seems so innocent to her, can affect and even hurt another. She may have never really considered this before. As with all things, the more we learn and educate, the more we can grow. And the more we grow in understanding, the closer we come together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been called racist because of having a George Bush for president sticker on my car. It happened while I was trying to help my African American next door neighbor by giving her a ride to the grocery store. There are a lot of things that the average African American views as racist. I am still going to do my own thing and people can like it or not. And no I don't own a confederate flag. I am tired of worrying about who I am going to offend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No. If you feel uncomfortable, then don't go. I would tell the woman why you are deciding not to continue lessons with her in a kind, informative way. Or you could choose to tell her how you feel about the flag and based upon her response, then decide what you want to do. :grouphug:

 

It's not an easy call for sure.

 

 

Maybe I should print out all the source documents listed in this thread and give them to her and let that speak for me. I guess that wouldn't be too subtle now would it?:tongue_smilie:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I disagree with you. If my kid was in your class I would have pulled them.

 

The Civil War was not about state's rights. If you read the secession documents most of them say "Slavery"

 

Not only that but they clearly state that they were mad because the Fugitive Slave Act was not being enforced in other states. They wanted their property rights to still count in "Free" states.

 

That is the opposite of State's Rights. They wanted THEIR rights enforced in FREE states. That is not state's rights.

 

There is so much more to this than you know. For one thing, The Fugitive Slave Act was a part of the Compromise of 1850 in which California was added as a free state to the Union. Congress voted on and agreed to add the FSA as a balance because the free states would now outnumber the slave states. It wasn't "they" wating anything. Congress approved it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But, don't forget that Jim Crow laws were rationalized with the same argument: state rights.

 

I don't think those of us who are mentioning state's rights have said that we agree or think that it was a good issue. We are just saying that state's rights were very much a part of the reason for the Civil War.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is so much more to this than you know. For one thing, The Fugitive Slave Act was a part of the Compromise of 1850 in which California was added as a free state to the Union. Congress voted on and agreed to add the FSA as a balance because the free states would now outnumber the slave states. It wasn't "they" wating anything. Congress approved it.

 

Nothing I said is contrary to that.

 

The original secession documents state that the FSA wasn't being enforced.

 

And...really you should know California wasn't the hot button. It was Kansas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The documents speak for themselves.

 

 

 

From the South Carolina secession documents

 

 

 

Mississippi

 

 

 

Texas

 

 

 

Georgia

 

 

 

It was SLAVERY

And the cotton was sold to many Northern textile mills. Without a true understanding of the economic situation at the time in both the North and South, it is so very easy to just proclaim slavery as the only issue. Most Southerners could not afford to own slaves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And the cotton was sold to many Northern textile mills. Without a true understanding of the economic situation at the time in both the North and South, it is so very easy to just proclaim slavery as the only issue. Most Southerners could not afford to own slaves.

 

And again, people don't vote in regard to where they are. They vote in regard to where they want to be. It's the American Dream

 

I quoted the original secession documents. Feel free to link primary sources if you are debating primary sources.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nothing I said is contrary to that.

 

The original secession documents state that the FSA wasn't being enforced.

 

And...really you should know California wasn't the hot button. It was Kansas.

 

And you should know that California was added as a free state in 1850. "Bleeding Kansas," the failed attempt at popular sovereignty in the Kansas-Nebraska territory happened in 1854. I certainly hope you know there were many hot button issues besides the voting fiasco in Kansas before the war.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've been called racist because of having a George Bush for president sticker on my car. It happened while I was trying to help my African American next door neighbor by giving her a ride to the grocery store. There are a lot of things that the average African American views as racist. I am still going to do my own thing and people can like it or not. And no I don't own a confederate flag. I am tired of worrying about who I am going to offend.

 

 

OK this example is hyper-sensitive. But come on some things are just obvious. That's like saying I'm going to wear a T-shirt that says "Jim Crow for President" (whatever something crazy) because the colors match my pants so I'm going to wear it no matter who it offends. We have to be smart about some of this stuff, and maintain a balance that cautions on the side of reason.

 

OBTW... I voted for Bush:001_smile:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And the cotton was sold to many Northern textile mills. Without a true understanding of the economic situation at the time in both the North and South, it is so very easy to just proclaim slavery as the only issue.

 

You are fairly new here. Search secession. Nobody disagrees with most of this, it just is not relevant to the discussion at hand. We have discussed this many times.

 

But this:

Most Southerners could not afford to own slaves.

 

Is not true. Most Southerners did not own slaves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And again, people don't vote in regard to where they are. They vote in regard to where they want to be. It's the American Dream

 

I quoted the original secession documents. Feel free to link primary sources if you are debating primary sources.

 

Read the original Missouri Compromise, Compromise of 1850 and nullification acts. State's Right's was a major topic for the South going back to the 1820's. Andrew Jackson's first vice-president, John C. Calhoun, resigned over the issue of nullification, a clear part of the state's rights ideas.

 

Actualy, the fight over the strength of the federal government goes back to the time of the American Revolutionary War. The first two political parties, The Federalists and the Anti-Federalists very muc disagreed with how strong the power of the natinal government should be. State's Rights were a major issue from the time our country was born.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You are fairly new here. Search secession. Nobody disagrees with most of this, it just is not relevant to the discussion at hand. We have discussed this many times.

 

But this:

 

 

Is not true. Most Southerners did not own slaves.

 

That's what I said. Most Southerners did not own slaves. I don't get the disagreement.:confused:

 

BTW, whether I am new or not, the issue of where the cotton was going is very relevant to the discussion of the Civil War because economics played a huge role in the the issus that led to the Civil War

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's what I said. Most Southerners did not own slaves. I don't get the disagreement.:confused:

 

I apologize, I misread. I saw "could not afford not to..." mea culpa, it's late here.

 

BTW, whether I am new or not, the issue of where the cotton was going is very relevant to the discussion of the Civil War because economics played a huge role in the the issus that led to the Civil War

 

But only the *South's* motives matter for the purpose of a discussion on whether the Confederate flag is generally viewed as a symbol of racism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And you should know that California was added as a free state in 1850. "Bleeding Kansas," the failed attempt at popular sovereignty in the Kansas-Nebraska territory happened in 1854. I certainly hope you know there were many hot button issues besides the voting fiasco in Kansas before the war.

 

Do you mean the provision in the Kansas-Nebraska Act that would allow Kansas to vote whether or not is would be a free or a slave state? It repealed the Missouri Compromise, which really annoyed a lot of people.

 

There was also Minnesota (free) and Oregon (whites only eek!) which both became states after California.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I apologize, I misread. I saw "could not afford not to..." mea culpa, it's late here.

 

 

 

But only the *South's* motives matter for the purpose of a discussion on whether the Confederate flag is generally viewed as a symbol of racism.

 

Oh, I get it now. You are right. Actually, I think it should be the individual's motivation. Having grown up in the South, I am very suspect when I see a Confederate flag. However, I thinnk I would be wrong to always assume a racist intent. that being said, I would not allow one in my house unless it was part of a historical memorabilia display, and that is not likely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can assure you that my African-American friends and neighbors understand it to be a racist symbol. If your friend does not have African-American friends she may not really understand this--her intent may be pure, but that does not change the message of that flag for African-Americans.

I grew up in the south and am proud of my southern heritage. I grew up with white family members who loved to use the flag as a symbol of white supremecy. I can be proud of who I am and my family without displaying a flag that us used in such a hate filled manner. I am very suspect and leary of anyone who insists on having it on display.

 

First, there were originally several flags that represented the Confederate States of America. The one most recognized now was one of several battle flags carried into battle. Racist groups call it the Southern Cross referring back to their southern roots and Christian heritage. Neo Nazi groups I am aware of use both this flag and the Nazi flag as favored symbols. I believe that the generations before chose the battle flag for a reason - they wanted to continue the battle that should have ended nearly 150 years ago.

 

Second, I am now the parent of African American children. I have seen this flag directed at us in a hate filled manner. I have seen gang members (white of course) carry a bandana of this in their pockets to show their allegiance to all things white. I would be very uncomfortable taking my children into a home where this was on display. Actually, I wouldn't be doing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Do you mean the provision in the Kansas-Nebraska Act that would allow Kansas to vote whether or not is would be a free or a slave state? It repealed the Missouri Compromise, which really annoyed a lot of people.

 

There was also Minnesota (free) and Oregon (whites only eek!) which both became states after California.

 

True. I don't think we disagree that the country was in turmoil over the issues of slavery and state's rights for a long time before the war.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Read the original Missouri Compromise, Compromise of 1850 and nullification acts. State's Right's was a major topic for the South going back to the 1820's. Andrew Jackson's first vice-president, John C. Calhoun, resigned over the issue of nullification, a clear part of the state's rights ideas.

 

Do you mean the guy who defended slavery as a "positive good" rather than a "necessary evil"

 

Rrriiigghhhttt

 

He wasn't too fond of Democracy either.

 

 

Actualy, the fight over the strength of the federal government goes back to the time of the American Revolutionary War. The first two political parties, The Federalists and the Anti-Federalists very muc disagreed with how strong the power of the natinal government should be. State's Rights were a major issue from the time our country was born.

 

Again I said please feel free to link primary sources. You did actually argue with the original secession documents, not me. So do feel free to quote primary sources to refute what those documents say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
True. I don't think we disagree that the country was in turmoil over the issues of slavery and state's rights for a long time before the war.

 

The argument of slavery began before we were a country. They made a concession to keep South Carolina...that is what led to the Civil War.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Do you mean the guy who defended slavery as a "positive good" rather than a "necessary evil"

 

Rrriiigghhhttt

 

He wasn't too fond of Democracy either.

 

 

 

Again I said please feel free to link primary sources. You did actually argue with the original secession documents, not me. So do feel free to quote primary sources to refute what those documents say.

 

I actually greatly dislike both John C. Calhoun and Andrew Jackson. I don't think either were fond of democracy.

 

I didn't argue against the secession documents of the Southern states that you quoted. My point is that there are many reasons for the Civil War, slavery among them. Those documents had specific quotes by slave owning, powerful men in the South. Since the majority of Southerners did not own slaves and were very poor, the right to own slaves was not foremost in their minds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I actually greatly dislike both John C. Calhoun and Andrew Jackson. I don't think either were fond of democracy.

 

I didn't argue against the secession documents of the Southern states that you quoted. My point is that there are many reasons for the Civil War, slavery among them. Those documents had specific quotes by slave owning, powerful men in the South. Since the majority of Southerners did not own slaves and were very poor, the right to own slaves was not foremost in their minds.

 

Oh ok, I dislike them both as well. :lol:

 

It doesn't matter how many owned slaves.

 

There are a great number of people who even now, do not vote in their financial best interests. They do not vote in regard to where they are, they vote in regard to where they want to be. Americans want to own property, they want to pass something down to their heirs, they want to have employees. They want to have investments. They want to have ownership over their work, rather than intrusion.

 

Many people will never own a home, own their own company or pass something down to their children. But they will vote with that in mind. There are a lot more people who freak out about the capital gains tax than it will ever effect.

 

It is the American Dream. The number of people who owned slaves has nothing to do with it, that is not how people think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I consider it racist. I don't buy into the heritage argument. My in-laws all display the Confederate flag and yes, they are racist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I live in the South. I would be very wary, even as a white person, of approaching a house with a Confederate flag outside or with the flag on their car in some way. I would take it as a warning sign and part of that warning would be about violence and part would signal racism.

 

I would be less apt to jump to that conclusion if displayed inside. the only person I know who has a Confederate flag inside is associated with Vision Forum's Doug Phillips and has the "South was a Christian society wronged by the North and the war was about state's right and slavery was a benign institution" point of view of history. They are not from the South; this is a Vision Forum belief. The family displaying it is mixed ethnicity (not AA though) . I don't think they are racist. I do think they are hoodwinked. It makes me sick. We have close friends who are AA and I cannot imagine displaying the flag even though we have a Civil War general in our family line as best as we can tell. (Girl baby named after him. He stayed in their home for a period of time. Quite the family scandal. The aunt who knows about it isn't talking!) To me, displaying the flag knowing what is symbolizes to most AfricanAmericans would be abhorrent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, I'm African American, and I live in Texas. Nearly every time I have come across a confederate flag, it means I have accidentally stumbled somewhere I am not welcome.

 

I get myself and mine out of there post haste and definitely make sure the sun doesn't set on us.

 

I most certainly see it as a racist symbol. It makes me EXTREMELY uncomfortable to see it.

 

I am truly sorry.

 

Bill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I grew up in the North and then spent some time in the South. I saw it a good bit in the South and yes, many times it is "racist" IME.

 

We moved back up north recently and when we were house hunting, we found a gorgeous rural property. The neighbors across the street displayed a confederate flag in their front yard. Honestly, it was a huge turnoff and one reason I wasn't particularly interested in the house.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I see the confederate flag, unless it is being displayed in a historical context (and sometimes even then), it definitely strikes me as racist, or at best insensitive. That's how I feel. I acknowledge that some folks have tried to reclaim it and reframe it as a non-racist symbol of southern heritage. But it's not the connotation that comes to mind when I see it displayed on a truck or house or t-shirt.

 

I think it's silly to try to consider the flag only in the context of the civil war. Whether one believes the war was about state's rights primarily or slavery primarily is irrelevant, imo. Historically, it was the flag of the confederacy. And at least SOME of the folks who supported the cause of the confederacy for whatever reason, also considered black skinned people to be inferior to white skinned people.

 

In the intervening 150 years, the confederate flag has most definitely been associated with outright, outspoken, unapologetic, racist peoples. I'm not saying that everyone who has ever flown a confederate flag is racist, BUT can anyone deny the fact that many folks who are indeed racist have claimed this symbol as their own and intermingle it with racist and ugly rhetoric? That many of these folks who claim it is a simple symbol of their southern heritage, what they mean by heritage is looking back fondly on the good ol' days when negroes knew their place and whites were almost universally acknowledged as superior.

 

It's not evil in and of itself, it's just an inanimate symbol. But sometimes a symbol transcends it's roots and becomes too intertwined with an idea to be considered separately. The swastika was a symbol used in many different cultures and religions and was commonly used decoratively. But after being co-opted by the Nazis and subsequently used as a symbol of bigotry and anti-antisemitism ever since, it is now almost universally recognized as a symbol of hatred. So, despite its benign roots, if one were to fly a swastika flag and especially if they were to say it was a proud symbol of their aryan pride or german heritage, I think most folks would recognize that as racism.

 

I have dear friends who are members of a group that celebrates their confederate heritage. They dress up in period costumes and host civil war battle reenactments and march in parades. In that context, a confederate flag is appropriate. In a few years, when I am studying the civil war with my boys, and we've created a bulletin board of civil war memorabilia and information, I've no doubt a confederate flag will be included. But, outside of these types of displays, I don't think flying or displaying or wearing the confederate flag is a wise or sensitive choice. We all KNOW it is offensive to black folks, and not just because of the civil war, but how it has been used ever since. So to choose to fly it anyway, knowing it causes offense to some, is racially insensitive at best, and my experience of knowing folks who fly it or wear it, perfectly representative of the racism they proudly display in other areas of their lives as well.

 

We've had this debate a lot around my household over the years, because my husband was born and raised in TX, and he sees it as a symbol of cultural heritage and pride. I've even been invited by my friends to join their sons of the confederacy group, and I qualify because in researching my geneaology I found at least one family who lost four of their sons in the civil war (uncles and brothers to my ancestors). But I never would join because I would feel incredibly uncomfortable being associated with the confederate flag, knowing how it has been used by others to express contempt for black people and how hurtful a symbol it can be to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I would have about the same reaction as seeing Nazi flag displayed it a person's home.

 

"States Rights" is a code-word for the right of some people (White people) to enslave other people (Black people).

 

No way around that.

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am from Alabama and my younger brother has the confederate flag tattooed on his arm as a symbol of our southern heritage. I'm not a huge fan of it but it has nothing to do with being racist.

 

Here in Penang there is a building called "Red Swastika Society" and their symbol is an ENORMOUS red swastika. The first time i saw it I was flabbergasted. But apparently this society is the Chinese equivalent of the Red Cross organization.

 

Go figure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I adhere to one flag. That is my countries flag. People can look at the american flag and think the same thing. Ohh the american flag means they supports slavery, and anti-women's suffrage movement. I am a southerner born and bred. My ancestors died for the confederacy. I don't want to think they died in vain.. Even if they were on the wrong side of the fight... We still wouldn't be where we are today without them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, I'm African American, and I live in Texas. Nearly every time I have come across a confederate flag, it means I have accidentally stumbled somewhere I am not welcome.

 

I get myself and mine out of there post haste and definitely make sure the sun doesn't set on us.

 

I most certainly see it as a racist symbol. It makes me EXTREMELY uncomfortable to see it.

 

:grouphug:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I would have about the same reaction as seeing Nazi flag displayed it a person's home.

 

"States Rights" is a code-word for the right of some people (White people) to enslave other people (Black people).

 

No way around that.

 

Bill

 

This. Where I live, the flag is clearly used to say, "You are not welcome here."

 

Honestly, if it were me, I would read the flag in this person's house as a sign that my family wasn't welcome, no matter the words spoken. Given history, it would be hard for me to do otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I would have about the same reaction as seeing Nazi flag displayed it a person's home.

 

"States Rights" is a code-word for the right of some people (White people) to enslave other people (Black people).

 

No way around that.

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

 

I hate seeing it. ANYWHERE.

 

Sometimes I think people live in a fantasy world when it comes to the Confederacy. Slavery was the hub holding that wheel together. Period. And slavery means people treated worse than animals, beatings, families separated, rape and much, much more. I just don't get how people can be all nostalgic about a world that had this evil institution at its center.

 

So yeah. I hate seeing the Confederate flag.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have lived in North Carolina my entire life. I view it as racist. It sickens me every time I see it which is nearly every time I leave my home. It never gets old.

 

Do I understand that other people fly/wear/slap it on their bumper without being racist? Yeah, I guess. But I think they are selfish in how they have decided to emphasis their love for the south. Fact is, the flag makes a LOT of people uncomfortable. Why you would choose to offend that many people is beyond me.

 

Frankly, there is a large number of people who are racist who love the flag. I cannot tell by looking at you whether you are or aren't. I do know you don't care about the feelings of those offended and that is enough for me.

 

(My brother had a confederate flag on his car for years. I wouldn't ride with him. I was thrilled when he finally removed it and apologized.)

 

For the record, I will support your right to fly the flag. Free speech and all that. But if you want to know how I feel about it. I think it should be restricted to museums and other appropriate historical settings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People attached to this flag or think there is nothing wrong with it.

 

Do you care that this is how people of color feel about it?

This. Where I live, the flag is clearly used to say, "You are not welcome here."

 

Honestly, if it were me, I would read the flag in this person's house as a sign that my family wasn't welcome, no matter the words spoken. Given history, it would be hard for me to do otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This. Where I live, the flag is clearly used to say, "You are not welcome here."

 

Honestly, if it were me, I would read the flag in this person's house as a sign that my family wasn't welcome, no matter the words spoken. Given history, it would be hard for me to do otherwise.

 

:iagree:

 

One odd note. Friends of mine lived in an apartment, back in the mid 80's, off road called Buford Hwy, in NE Atl. For those of you who know the Atlanta area, it used to be a very "white/redneck" area. It's now very international (Asian and Hispanic). But, back when they lived there, it was common to see Rebel Flags everywhere, on cars, t-shirt, business windows, etc. On time, while visiting my friends, a guy pulled-up in a jacked-up pickup (wheels way high for mud boggin'), with playboy mud flaps, and a huge rebel flag draped over the back window. His horn even played Dixie. No one was more floored than me, when the guy stepped out of his truck; the dude was black. :001_huh:

 

That too some brass marbles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...