The Confederate Flag Rascist or Not?

[mommaduck]

People attached to this flag or think there is nothing wrong with it.

 

Do you care that this is how people of color feel about it?

 

It really depends upon the person. I've known black people that fly it or aren't bothered by it. There is a youtube video of a black man that walks around in a CSA uniform, carrying the battle flag, and telling the story of black men that fought in the CSA.

 

Honestly, there were many sides to the war. I don't believe everyone fought it for the same reasons.

[Mrs Mungo]

It really depends upon the person. I've known black people that fly it or aren't bothered by it. There is a youtube video of a black man that walks around in a CSA uniform, carrying the battle flag, and telling the story of black men that fought in the CSA.

 

Honestly, there were many sides to the war. I don't believe everyone fought it for the same reasons.

 

I don't disagree with you on any of that, but it doesn't change how people feel about it. A lot of people (people of color and other white people) *do* feel that it represents racism. A lot of racists *do* use it a sign of hate.

 

The swastika issue being used in other contexts is totally different than flying a Nazi flag.

 

If you knew someone who was flying a Nazi flag as a symbol of German nationalism, how would you feel about it? How would you expect Jewish people to feel about it? How would you expect them to feel about Jews? How would you expect them to react if they were confronted by a Jewish person?

[Ecclecticmum]

Some people just collect historical items, they don't neccssarily mean to offend others. if something of this calibre is hanging outside their house, thats different, but inside, its their home.

 

I have a few things i have collected over the last 5 years that to some may be viewed as horrid, and to be forgotten, but in finding them, taking them home, and then researching more about them, i have come to find out many things about our history that I was not taught in school. There is one item I have on display in our family room that may be viewed to the visitor as offensive, but I keep it their to remind myself what can happen in certain circumstances, and how to appreciate every day I have with my family.

 

Sometimes, an item like this, especially when the person may not be well versed in all its canotations, is whats needed to see the other side.

 

Growing up in a house where my dad would not let me say the words Germany or Nazi (even before I knew what they were) has taught me to have an open mind and explain things to my children from both points of view.

 

I remember one time I sat down to watch a documentary about someone I hadn't heard of (I was 14 at the time) when my Dad came in when it said the persons name, and he went off his rocker, turned off the TV and yelled at me never to watch anything about that man again. It wasn't until later (after I left home) that I learnt what the "Manson Family" was all about. I think we shouldn't disregard items just because of its negative views, but even to display the item, and allow the childs natural curiosity to take place, so that you can teach/tell them about what happened, and what we must do in the future to avoid the same mistake.

 

xxx

[Mama Geek]

OK this example is hyper-sensitive. But come on some things are just obvious. That's like saying I'm going to wear a T-shirt that says "Jim Crow for President" (whatever something crazy) because the colors match my pants so I'm going to wear it no matter who it offends. We have to be smart about some of this stuff, and maintain a balance that cautions on the side of reason.

 

OBTW... I voted for Bush:001_smile:

 

My point was that lots of people get offended by different things. The confederate flag represents different things to different people. I have lived in the south for at least half of my life and I don't have a problem with it. I don't have one, because I am not passionate about it. I do have friends that are African American.

[mommaduck]

I don't disagree with you on any of that, but it doesn't change how people feel about it. A lot of people (people of color and other white people) *do* feel that it represents racism. A lot of racists *do* use it a sign of hate.

 

The swastika issue being used in other contexts is totally different than flying a Nazi flag.

 

If you knew someone who was flying a Nazi flag as a symbol of German nationalism, how would you feel about it? How would you expect Jewish people to feel about it? How would you expect them to feel about Jews? How would you expect them to react if they were confronted by a Jewish person?

I agree. And that is one reason I wouldn't fly it, even though my heritage is in the South and my family fought for the CSA, simply because of how it offends various people. I have no problem with it being part of a collection of memorabilia though.

[zenjenn]

Not sure if anyone is going to read this coming this late into the discussion but...

 

I am a non-Southerner (born and raised in Southern California) who has resided in Alabama the past 3 years.

 

Before I moved to Alabama I thought the Confederate flag was racist. Now, I do not - although I don't fully defend it, either.

 

Here's the thing: I think there is plenty of ignorance to go around here. And I don't mean that in an insulting way - I mean ignorant as sincerely unaware.

 

Southerners who are ignorant of how people outside their subculture think of and react to the Confederate flag.

 

And others who react that way to the Confederate flag while remaining ignorant of what meaning it has to those for whom Civil War ancestry and heritage played a huge rule in family culture and ancestral reverence for one of the bloodiest wars in history. Basically by agreeing that the Confederate flag is racist, they are agreeing that their ancestors fought and died for a totally racist agenda.

 

No doubt - the Civil War was about slavery. I'm not one of those people who say it wasn't. But, we have to judge those that fought for the Confederacy within the context of their time. It is not fair to compare the Confederate soldiers to Nazis. Slavery was an institution for which the north at one point would have shared just as much culpability as the south, were it not for regional agriculture that increased dependence upon the institution of slavery. And the Confederacy wasn't trying to commit genocide out of nowhere like the Nazis were, but protect their society and homeland as they knew it and had known it for generations. It's not as if the South rose up out of sudden evil ideology and said "I know! Let's enslave people!" This was build upon a foundation of wrongdoing that had lasted generations and getting out of it was not an obvious course in the mid 19th century for a variety of economic and societal reasons. It was not obvious to the North, either. Let's not fool ourselves and think the North was just an enlightened bunch of stalwart abolitionists.

 

ALL THAT SAID, I think enough time has passed that it is time to put the Confederate flag to rest. No one is honoring any immediate ancestor at this point. However, knowing the history of the flag and what it means to many families, I think it is pretty ignorant to just point at a Confederate flag and scream "Racist".

 

And THAT said, I think it is fair to say when you see a random skinhead punk in Los Angeles with a Confederate flag, he's being a punk racist because he is NOT ignorant about the racist connotations of the flag. He knows ****ED well what it means and he's flying it to express his racism. When it hanging on the porch of some 70-yr-old in rural Alabama whose family has been farming the same land for six generations, while that individual may have residual racism, the flag's presence does not specifically represent racism.

Edited August 4, 2011 by zenjenn

[zenjenn]

And, further, a point I have made to local Alabamians in this discussion is to state - it is simply a FACT that the Confederate flag has racist connotations to the world now.

 

As a metaphor, I say, we know that today, waving as a greeting is considered friendly and appropriate. Let's say for some reason in 50 years, the waving gesture is considered obscene. Let's say you go to another culture, where waving is considered obscene.

 

The choice here is, do I continue to wave because I'm stubborn and darnnit, waving is perfectly acceptable in my world, or do I have enough grace to refrain from waving knowing that it is offensive to other people.

 

Some have responded to this that this is why they would not put display a confederate flag on their car or on apparel, etc, but that they will not refrain from displaying their confederate flags and memorabilia in their own homes just because of what other people think, that these items have been important items in their families for over a century, etc. I guess that much, I can live with.

[zenjenn]

One more thing - in response to Spycar's swastika comparison.

 

My best friend in Jr. High was Hindu. I am Jewish. The first time I went into her house, I saw this on the wall.

 

 

My immediate reaction was abject horror.

 

The experience taught me not to jump to conclusions about symbols.

 

Any sensitive and knowledgable Hindu would not walk around with this on a t-shirt, but that doesn't mean it should be forbidden everywhere, always.

Edited August 4, 2011 by zenjenn

[Mrs Mungo]

I have no problem with it being part of a collection of memorabilia though.

 

And I might not either. That's why my initial response said that it depends upon the context.

[lovelaughs_times_three]

If you knew someone who was flying a Nazi flag as a symbol of German nationalism, how would you feel about it? How would you expect Jewish people to feel about it? How would you expect them to feel about Jews? How would you expect them to react if they were confronted by a Jewish person?

 

:iagree: Wow. That's a good point. It brings it into a new light, and gives it new perspective. Now, after reading this thread, it bothers me even more that my in-laws put that flag on everything they own. :glare: Makes me wonder if I should say anything to them. It is such a big part of their culture. They are HUGE into the re-enactments. I think bringing it up would just cause friction and not bring any change. But, now, I will feel even less comfortable.

[Alveraz]

This is about symbolism. The Nazi flag itself is not "racist" but it symbolizes hate. Fortunately we live in a country where you can raise any flag you want. I might not agree, but it's your right if it doesn't hurt me or others. I don't care if someone raises a confederate flag, but they'll also get to listen to my thoughts on it, as I have the right to speak about it openly. I have no problem rolling up on some redneck to let him know his flag represents hate and ignorance. I've done it on occasion. I love my country and the freedoms it provides.

[CarenM]

Our neighbor flies it and it really offends me. I want to go and steal it!

[leeannpal]

Not sure if anyone is going to read this coming this late into the discussion but...

 

I am a non-Southerner (born and raised in Southern California) who has resided in Alabama the past 3 years.

 

Before I moved to Alabama I thought the Confederate flag was racist. Now, I do not - although I don't fully defend it, either.

 

Here's the thing: I think there is plenty of ignorance to go around here. And I don't mean that in an insulting way - I mean ignorant as sincerely unaware.

 

Southerners who are ignorant of how people outside their subculture think of and react to the Confederate flag.

 

And others who react that way to the Confederate flag while remaining ignorant of what meaning it has to those for whom Civil War ancestry and heritage played a huge rule in family culture and ancestral reverence for one of the bloodiest wars in history. Basically by agreeing that the Confederate flag is racist, they are agreeing that their ancestors fought and died for a totally racist agenda.

 

No doubt - the Civil War was about slavery. I'm not one of those people who say it wasn't. But, we have to judge those that fought for the Confederacy within the context of their time. It is not fair to compare the Confederate soldiers to Nazis. Slavery was an institution for which the north at one point would have shared just as much culpability as the south, were it not for regional agriculture that increased dependence upon the institution of slavery. And the Confederacy wasn't trying to commit genocide out of nowhere like the Nazis were, but protect their society and homeland as they knew it and had known it for generations. It's not as if the South rose up out of sudden evil ideology and said "I know! Let's enslave people!" This was build upon a foundation of wrongdoing that had lasted generations and getting out of it was not an obvious course in the mid 19th century for a variety of economic and societal reasons. It was not obvious to the North, either. Let's not fool ourselves and think the North was just an enlightened bunch of stalwart abolitionists.

 

ALL THAT SAID, I think enough time has passed that it is time to put the Confederate flag to rest. No one is honoring any immediate ancestor at this point. However, knowing the history of the flag and what it means to many families, I think it is pretty ignorant to just point at a Confederate flag and scream "Racist".

 

And THAT said, I think it is fair to say when you see a random skinhead punk in Los Angeles with a Confederate flag, he's being a punk racist because he is NOT ignorant about the racist connotations of the flag. He knows ****ED well what it means and he's flying it to express his racism. When it hanging on the porch of some 70-yr-old in rural Alabama whose family has been farming the same land for six generations, while that individual may have residual racism, the flag's presence does not specifically represent racism.

 

 

Thank you:) This post is just so well said.

[Nestof3]

Confederate flag does not equal racism. Anyone who things all Confederates for pro-slavery or that the Civil War was all about slavery needs to brush up on history.

[Impish]

*haven't read all responses*

 

A material item isn't capable of being racist. Only people are. So, to me, the flag itself wouldn't be racist, it would have everything to do with the person who possesses it.

[Jennifer3141]

It kind of amuses me that people think it's NOT racist. As a symbol, I get how someone could look at the flag and think, "Cool! Southern pride!" I hate the south personally but I get how some people think it's cool. Scarlett O'Hara and collard greens and all...

 

But to people of color, it's a slap in the face. It's a symbol of death, torture, and physically being OWNED by another. How anyone could fly it knowing that symbol makes other human beings (children!!) feel that way is completely beyond me. I've always wondered how people of color explain that to their children the first time. And how it must have broken those mamas hearts. :(

As a white person, just explaining the concept of slavery to my children horrified them enough. Watching it sink in and the tears... Wow.

 

I cannot imagine just going to Target for toilet paper one day with children of color and seeing that flag and how utterly unsafe you must feel all of a sudden. I'm sure there are people who feel it's a pride thing unrelated to race. But how are POC supposed to know that???

 

Before we bought this place, DH and I checked out a lovely little farm next door to a house flying that flag (in addition to a Michigan Militia flag. Oy). We got this place instead and DH and I joke that we paid $43,000 more NOT to have to live next door to that. It was worth every single dime.

[Ellesmere]

I live in the South. I would be very wary, even as a white person, of approaching a house with a Confederate flag outside or with the flag on their car in some way. I would take it as a warning sign and part of that warning would be about violence and part would signal racism.

 

 

 

No time to elaborate as much as I wish right now, but I feel the same way. The difference is I live in the northern USA. I say this because in one particular rural area, the flag is displayed and the attitudes towards non-whites is not terribly open. I'm not caucasian, but most of my family is and even they raised their eyebrows at the displays.

 

On the other hand, I've seen it displayed in a well-to-do area in a church office. The person, despite their love for the south and Bob Jones, was not what you would call a hateful racist. And the flag was not a warning about violence. The person who displayed it was actually ignorant (and not terribly concerned) about how the display would affect anyone.

 

And I'm really not an oversensitive minority. Honestly, it took me years to figure out that I was in an interracial marriage and that some people took issue with it. I just thought it was my personality or something else. I've never assumed that I'm mistreated due to my ethnicity because I'm pretty dense about when it happens. Usually other people have to point it out to me.

[Alveraz]

Anyone who thinks...that the Civil War was all about slavery needs to brush up on history.

 

This is a joke right?

 

Slavery was the PRIMARY reason for the war. Too many people have tried to change that fact since then, but the evidence is clear and undebatable. The confederate flag symbolizes the men who fought to keep slavery alive in this country, period.

 

Wave it if you want, but don't hide from what it symbolizes.

[Harriet Vane]

It kind of amuses me that people think it's NOT racist....

 

But to people of color, it's a slap in the face. It's a symbol of death, torture, and physically being OWNED by another. How anyone could fly it knowing that symbol makes other human beings (children!!) feel that way is completely beyond me. I've always wondered how people of color explain that to their children the first time. And how it must have broken those mamas hearts. :(

As a white person, just explaining the concept of slavery to my children horrified them enough. Watching it sink in and the tears... Wow.

 

I cannot imagine just going to Target for toilet paper one day with children of color and seeing that flag and how utterly unsafe you must feel all of a sudden. I'm sure there are people who feel it's a pride thing unrelated to race. But how are POC supposed to know that???

 

. .. . .

 

Well said.

[Melissa in FL]

Read the original Missouri Compromise, Compromise of 1850 and nullification acts. State's Right's was a major topic for the South going back to the 1820's. Andrew Jackson's first vice-president, John C. Calhoun, resigned over the issue of nullification, a clear part of the state's rights ideas.

 

Actualy, the fight over the strength of the federal government goes back to the time of the American Revolutionary War. The first two political parties, The Federalists and the Anti-Federalists very muc disagreed with how strong the power of the natinal government should be. State's Rights were a major issue from the time our country was born.

 

:iagree:

 

In the words of Abraham Lincoln: "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause."

 

Even the Federal President didn't care whether or not the slaves were free, he just cared about keeping the south as part of the USA. It was about whether or not the Union was going to split into two countries or stay one. It started during the Revolutionary war.

 

Oh, I don't view the flag in a negative way (but I used to when I was ignorant of all the different events leading to the civil war).

 

Melissa

[Alveraz]

:iagree:

 

In the words of Abraham Lincoln: "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause."

 

Even the Federal President didn't care whether or not the slaves were free, he just cared about keeping the south as part of the USA. It was about whether or not the Union was going to split into two countries or stay one. It started during the Revolutionary war.

 

Oh, I don't view the flag in a negative way (but I used to when I was ignorant of all the different events leading to the civil war).

 

Melissa

 

Give me a break. I can do quote wars with you all day. This war was about slavery, period.

 

Quotes by Abe:

 

I have very earnestly urged the slave-states to adopt emancipation; and it ought to be, and is an object with me not to overthrow, or thwart what any of them may in good faith do, to that end.

--June 23, 1863 Letter to John M. Schofield

 

 

And by virtue of the power, and for the purpose aforesaid, I do order and declare that all persons held as slaves within said designated States, and parts of States, are, and henceforward shall be free; and that the Executive government of the United States, including the military and naval authorities thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of said persons.

--January 1, 1863 Emancipation Proclamation

 

And upon this act, sincerely believed to be an act of justice, warranted by the Constitution, upon military necessity, I invoke the considerate judgment of mankind, and the gracious favor of Almighty God.

--January 1, 1863 Emancipation Proclamation

 

Still, to use a coarse, but an expressive figure, broken eggs can not be mended. I have issued the emancipation proclamation, and I can not retract it.

--January 8, 1863 Letter to John A. McClernand

 

I have very earnestly urged the slave-states to adopt emancipation; and it ought to be, and is an object with me not to overthrow, or thwart what any of them may in good faith do, to that end.

--June 23, 1863 Letter to John M. Schofield

 

"The emancipation proclamation applies to Arkansas. I think it is valid in law, and will be so held by the courts. I think I shall not retract or repudiate it. Those who shall have tasted actual freedom I believe can never be slaves, or quasi slaves again."

--July 31, 1863 Letter to Stephen A. Hurlburt

 

You dislike the emancipation proclamation; and, perhaps, would have it retracted. You say it is unconstitutional -- I think differently.

--August 26, 1863 Letter to James Conkling

 

But the proclamation, as law, either is valid, or is not valid. If it is not valid, it needs no retraction. If it is valid, it can not be retracted, any more than the dead can be brought to life.

--August 26, 1863 Letter to James Conkling

 

This is a world of compensations; and he who would be no slave, must consent to have no slave. Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it.

--April 6, 1859 Letter to Henry Pierce

Edited August 4, 2011 by Alveraz

[leeannpal]

It kind of amuses me that people think it's NOT racist. As a symbol, I get how someone could look at the flag and think, "Cool! Southern pride!" I hate the south personally but I get how some people think it's cool. Scarlett O'Hara and collard greens and all...

 

But to people of color, it's a slap in the face. It's a symbol of death, torture, and physically being OWNED by another. How anyone could fly it knowing that symbol makes other human beings (children!!) feel that way is completely beyond me. I've always wondered how people of color explain that to their children the first time. And how it must have broken those mamas hearts. :(

As a white person, just explaining the concept of slavery to my children horrified them enough. Watching it sink in and the tears... Wow.

 

I cannot imagine just going to Target for toilet paper one day with children of color and seeing that flag and how utterly unsafe you must feel all of a sudden. I'm sure there are people who feel it's a pride thing unrelated to race. But how are POC supposed to know that???

 

Before we bought this place, DH and I checked out a lovely little farm next door to a house flying that flag (in addition to a Michigan Militia flag. Oy). We got this place instead and DH and I joke that we paid $43,000 more NOT to have to live next door to that. It was worth every single dime.

 

Is there a reason that you "hate the South?" It amuses me that people can be so blatanly bigoted toward a whole group of people and then wonder, rightly or wrongly, why others don't see a flag as racist?

[bairnmama]

I only got through page 11 of the replies, but I wanted to post this. I was born & raised in a small TX town that was definitely redneck, but you hardly ever saw a confederate battle flag or anything else related to the Civil War. It wasn't brought up in any way. My xdh was born & raised in Mississippi. The confederate battle flag is literally everywhere. He is one of those that believes the war was about states rights and has read extensively about it. He is proud of the flag from a heritage standpoint and had one hanging in his bedroom. From many of the jokes he tells and comments he makes... most people would think he's a racist. However, many of his best friends (he doesn't use that term loosely and has often risked his own life for his friends) are black and/or hispanic. To him, it's the attitude and behaviour of the person that elicits the jokes, comments, etc., NOT the color of their skin.

 

*Don't read further if the "n" word bothers you!*

 

To use his exact words, "I don't have a problem with black people. It's niggars I can't stand." He uses the term "niggar" to mean any person that routinely behaves in an idiotic manner, never wants to work but feels they "deserve" handouts, and blames others for their lot in life -- whether they are black, white, brown, or purple. My BIL (my sister's dh), though, is most definitely a racist even though he doesn't own a single piece of confederate memorabilia.

 

My children now understand that their father does and says many things I don't want them repeating or emulating. Their father's flag is folded in the cedar chest and not brought out.

 

To answer the OP, I would let my dc continue with the lessons. I would, however, talk with them about the flag, what it means to some, and how it might make others feel. I would explain why we don't display such things in our house or on our person. They will be confronted by such things as teens & adults and I want to make sure they understand my personal point of view so they can be prepared and not caught by surprise.

[leeannpal]

Give me a break. I can do quote wars with you all day. This war was about slavery, period.

 

Quotes by Abe:

 

I have very earnestly urged the slave-states to adopt emancipation; and it ought to be, and is an object with me not to overthrow, or thwart what any of them may in good faith do, to that end.

--June 23, 1863 Letter to John M. Schofield

 

 

And by virtue of the power, and for the purpose aforesaid, I do order and declare that all persons held as slaves within said designated States, and parts of States, are, and henceforward shall be free; and that the Executive government of the United States, including the military and naval authorities thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of said persons.

--January 1, 1863 Emancipation Proclamation

 

And upon this act, sincerely believed to be an act of justice, warranted by the Constitution, upon military necessity, I invoke the considerate judgment of mankind, and the gracious favor of Almighty God.

--January 1, 1863 Emancipation Proclamation

 

Still, to use a coarse, but an expressive figure, broken eggs can not be mended. I have issued the emancipation proclamation, and I can not retract it.

--January 8, 1863 Letter to John A. McClernand

 

I have very earnestly urged the slave-states to adopt emancipation; and it ought to be, and is an object with me not to overthrow, or thwart what any of them may in good faith do, to that end.

--June 23, 1863 Letter to John M. Schofield

 

"The emancipation proclamation applies to Arkansas. I think it is valid in law, and will be so held by the courts. I think I shall not retract or repudiate it. Those who shall have tasted actual freedom I believe can never be slaves, or quasi slaves again."

--July 31, 1863 Letter to Stephen A. Hurlburt

 

You dislike the emancipation proclamation; and, perhaps, would have it retracted. You say it is unconstitutional -- I think differently.

--August 26, 1863 Letter to James Conkling

 

But the proclamation, as law, either is valid, or is not valid. If it is not valid, it needs no retraction. If it is valid, it can not be retracted, any more than the dead can be brought to life.

--August 26, 1863 Letter to James Conkling

 

You can believe what you want, but it doesn't change history or the facts. The differing economic situations in the North and the South were a primary cause of the Civil War. Go back and look at the debates that the members of Congress from northern states and southern states had on raising international tariff rates. Also, check how the average person in the North felt about slavery during the years leading up to the Civil War. You might be surprised.

 

BTW, all the Lincoln quotes you used were from the time of the Civil War. After the war had started, Lincoln did make the abolition of slavery one of the goals of the war-but not before the war. Lincoln was not an abolitionist. He wanted to stop the spread of slavery into the western area of the United States. Oh, and the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves int he states in rebellion. The slaves in the border states, where slaery was still legal, were not freed because the slave owners there were fighting for the Union. I bet it sucked to be a slave in those states.

Edited August 4, 2011 by leeannpal

[Laurie4b]

This is about symbolism. The Nazi flag itself is not "racist" but it symbolizes hate. .

 

I think this is an important point. The Confederate flag symbolizes racism to so many. Why fly one unless you are also saying, " I don't give a rat's tail whether it affects some African-American driving by or not." Perhaps the reason for not caring is one's own interpretation of the symbolism, but to not care whether you are inflicting pain on people who might see it seems mightly insensitive if not outright racist to me.

[SweetMissMagnolia]

no,it's not.......

[OH_Homeschooler]

Yes, I think it is racist. Arguing it is just about states' rights or Southern pride is, to me, just a socially acceptable way of defending the underlying racism. Call me ignorant if you will, but I think it's ignorant for people to fly the Confederate flag and pretend like it has nothing to do with celebrating slavery. Perhaps that's not your intent, but that is still a major component of what the flag represents and you can't have one connotation without the other. You just can't.

[leeannpal]

I think this is an important point. The Confederate flag symbolizes racism to so many. Why fly one unless you are also saying, " I don't give a rat's tail whether it affects some African-American driving by or not." Perhaps the reason for not caring is one's own interpretation of the symbolism, but to not care whether you are inflicting pain on people who might see it seems mightly insensitive if not outright racist to me.

 

In the original post, the music teacher has the flag displayed in their home. I think there is a big difference in having a hugeConfederate flag flying prominently above your house and in putting it up in your home.

[Alveraz]

You can believe what you want, but it doesn't change history or the facts. The differing economic situations in the North and the South were a primary cause of the Civil War. Go back and look at the debates that the members of Congress from northern states and southern states had on raising international tariff rates. Also, check how the average person in the North felt about slavery during teh years leading up to the Civil War. You might be surprised.

 

BTW, all the Lincoln quotes you used were from the time of the Civil War. After the war had started, Lincoln did mae the abolition of slavery one of the goals of the war-but not before the war. Lincoln was not an abolitionist. He wanted to stop the spread of slavery into the western area of the United States.

 

The 11 states who declared their secession from the US were all slave states.

 

No one said there were not other reasons behind the war, but the primary reason was slavery and the economic loss that would be suffered by those 11 states if it were abolished.

[Alveraz]

I think there is a big difference in having a hugeConfederate flag flying prominently above your house and in putting it up in your home.

 

I disagree, there is no difference. Again, I will fight for everyone's rights to fly any flag they want on their own property or in a peaceful manner on public property. As much as I think the flag stands for racist pigs, I'll shed blood to fight for their right to fly it.

[leeannpal]

The 11 states who declared their secession from the US were all slave states.

 

No one said there were not other reasons behind the war, but the primary reason was slavery and the economic loss that would be suffered by those 11 states if it were abolished.

 

There were 4 states that chose to remain with the union that were slave holding states.

 

I disagree that slavery was the only primary cause. Don't forget that textile mill owners were losing out too. And the country of France supported the South during the war because of economic ties as well.

[leeannpal]

I disagree, there is no difference. Again, I will fight for everyone's rights to fly any flag they want on their own property or in a peaceful manner on public property. As much as I think the flag stands for racist pigs, I'll shed blood to fight for their right to fly it.

 

O.K., we disagree.

[scrappyhappymama]

Confederate flag does not equal racism. Anyone who things all Confederates for pro-slavery or that the Civil War was all about slavery needs to brush up on history.

 

"What the civil war is all about" has been debated over and over and while I have my own point of view, I've come to appreciate that others have a very different one. However, what about all the HISTORY in the last 150 years relating to the confederate flag. Like it or no, it has not remained an untainted symbol of the CSA, but has been used as a rallying flag for those who HATE other people because they are a different race or color. With respect, perhaps you need to brush up on that history! To suggest that the confederate flag does not have a racist connotation, in this day and time, with ALL of it's history from the CSA to the KKK to modern skinheads, and in spite of African Americans and other People of Color expressing how badly it makes them feel- well, it leaves me gobsmacked.

[MelAR05]

:iagree:

 

In the words of Abraham Lincoln: "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause."

 

Even the Federal President didn't care whether or not the slaves were free, he just cared about keeping the south as part of the USA. It was about whether or not the Union was going to split into two countries or stay one. It started during the Revolutionary war.

 

Oh, I don't view the flag in a negative way (but I used to when I was ignorant of all the different events leading to the civil war).

 

Melissa

 

Another Melissa agreeing here as well. There will always be some deep rooted hostility about losing the Civil War. That being said and being a life long Southerner, I would not display the Confederate flag because I know it offends others. But I have no problem with some one else making that choice. Many Southerners are very proud of being from the South.

[Firefly]

I had no idea such a mentality existed until I lived overseas and started meeting ex-pats from the South. I was often referred to (not unkindly) as a Yankee and realized for many the American Civil War was still a bone of contention. Really, we're over it up here, so I was surprised. So anyway, I always associated the confederate flag with Southern pride (and yeah, I think that is the intent of many of those who sport it). However, now that I know it's other association and it's effect on others, I can't understand how people could know these things as well and still want to display it. :confused:

[Alveraz]

But I have no problem with some one else making that choice. Many Southerners are very proud of being from the South.

 

That's the problem. Germans don't fly the Nazi flag because they're proud of being from Germany. If they fly it, it's because they're racists.

 

Southerners have several flags to choose from. Regardless of the proponents here, those who fly the confederate flag have a deliberate agenda that is fundamentally rooted in racism.

 

You guys can be as delusional as you want. If it walks like duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck. If it's not about racism, show me one non-white who flys it. Are you suggesting this is an anomaly?

 

There is NOTHING that suggests this is a "southern pride" issue. It's a racism issue. Those who fly it and say otherwise are the same ones who call African-Americans "colored's" and "negros" and have yet to see a problem with it.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Alveraz

[MelAR05]

That's the problem. Germans don't fly the Nazi flag because they're proud of being from Germany. If they fly it, it's because they're racists.

 

Southerners have several flags to choose from. Regardless of the proponents here, those who fly the confederate flag have a deliberate agenda that is fundamentally rooted in racism.

 

You guys can be as delusional as you want. If it walks like duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck. If it's not about racism, show me one non-white who flys it. Are you suggesting this is an anomaly?

 

There is NOTHING that suggests this is a "southern pride" issue. It's a racism issue. Those who fly it and say otherwise are the same ones who call African-Americans "colored's" and "negros" and have yet to see a problem with it.

 

You obviously do not understand the South. It's exactly this attitude toward Southerners that makes them want to fly the flag and nothing to do with racism!

[Parrothead]

You obviously do not understand the South. It's exactly this attitude toward Southerners that makes them want to fly the flag and nothing to do with racism!

:iagree:Exactly.

[Alveraz]

You obviously do not understand the South. It's exactly this attitude toward Southerners that makes them want to fly the flag and nothing to do with racism!

 

I lived in the south for years. I understand what the flag represents and those that fly it do too. It does not represent the south and most southerners I personally know would take offense to that statement.

 

Again, does the Nazi flag represent Germany, or a way of thinking?

 

Wake up.

[UnsinkableKristen]

 

There is NOTHING that suggests this is a "southern pride" issue. It's a racism issue. Those who fly it and say otherwise are the same ones who call African-Americans "colored's" and "negros" and have yet to see a problem with it.

 

I can't recall the last time I've heard such a ridiculously sweeping generalization. Wow. :001_huh:

 

This really makes any other reasonable argument you may have difficult to listen to.

[Alveraz]

I can't recall the last time I've heard such a ridiculously sweeping generalization. Wow. :001_huh:

 

This really makes any other reasonable argument you may have difficult to listen to.

 

Ok, I'll submit to this, I was a little excited there and overstepped. Sorry. I didn't mean to suggest everyone who flys this flag speaks this way.

 

But, they all think it (lol).

[OH_Homeschooler]

You obviously do not understand the South. It's exactly this attitude toward Southerners that makes them want to fly the flag and nothing to do with racism!

 

You obviously do not get the argument that people will understandably associate the Confederate flag with racism, even if it has other connotations. If you know that, and still fly it, then I guess you just have to deal with the fact that people will think you're racist.

[beaners]

That's the problem. Germans don't fly the Nazi flag because they're proud of being from Germany. If they fly it, it's because they're racists.

 

Southerners have several flags to choose from. Regardless of the proponents here, those who fly the confederate flag have a deliberate agenda that is fundamentally rooted in racism.

 

You guys can be as delusional as you want. If it walks like duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck. If it's not about racism, show me one non-white who flys it. Are you suggesting this is an anomaly?

 

There is NOTHING that suggests this is a "southern pride" issue. It's a racism issue. Those who fly it and say otherwise are the same ones who call African-Americans "colored's" and "negros" and have yet to see a problem with it.

 

I've been holding off posting on this thread, but my best friend from Memphis is black. He had one on his backpack that he wore everywhere. I believe a few other people on this very thread have had similar experiences. I lived in Memphis during my "philosophical" period, and we had a lot of discussion about racism and history in the south because I'm originally from NY. While there may be a strong correlation between the flag and racism, it isn't the only reason anyone would display it. (Unless you're suggesting that my highly educated and articulate friend's motives were really racist and he was too ignorant to realize it.)

[MelAR05]

I lived in the south for years. I understand what the flag represents and those that fly it do too. It does not represent the south and most southerners I personally know would take offense to that statement.

 

Again, does the Nazi flag represent Germany, or a way of thinking?

 

Wake up.

 

I really must cool off before I respond. This is prejudice in my opinion.

[Alveraz]

I've been holding off posting on this thread, but mybest friend from Memphis is black. He had one on his backpack that he wore everywhere. I believe a few other people on this very thread have had similar experiences. I lived in Memphis during my "philosophical" period, and we had a lot of discussion about racism and history in the south because I'm originally from NY. While there may be a strong correlation between the flag and racism, it isn't the only reason anyone would display it. (Unless you're suggesting that my highly educated and articulate friend's motives were really racist and he was too ignorant to realize it.)

 

OK. Why did he have this flag on his backpack?

[Alveraz]

I really must cool off before I respond. This is prejudice in my opinion.

 

what part is "prejudice"? I didn't make a sweeping statement about southerners. I simply said the flag is a symbol of racism. That's just a fact. Many of my southern friends find it offensive as well and I was defending the accusation that I don't know southerners and that all southerners believe one way. It's just not true.

[Jennifer3141]

Is there a reason that you "hate the South?" It amuses me that people can be so blatanly bigoted toward a whole group of people and then wonder, rightly or wrongly, why others don't see a flag as racist?

 

Yeah. It's too HOT. :D

[Laurie4b]

I Since the majority of Southerners did not own slaves and were very poor, the right to own slaves was not foremost in their minds.

 

Primary documents to support this statement?

[Laurie4b]

Yeah. It's too HOT. :D

 

:lol:

 

Whatchu talking about? It's only 94 here now.

[UnsinkableKristen]

Ok, I'll submit to this, I was a little excited there and overstepped. Sorry. I didn't mean to suggest everyone who flys this flag speaks this way.

 

But, they all think it (lol).

 

 

Understood.

 

It's easy, when you are discussing something heatedly online, to forget that there are real people on the other end of that argument. People that for whatever reason may not agree with you, and it may not be because of why you think.