Totally freaked out (long)

[CalicoKat]

I babysat for 4 girls this summer. One of them has "issues" and the mom warned me to keep a close eye on her because she does "weird" things.....like put all the silverware in the mircowave :glare: (this was the example she gave and said she likes to experiment)

 

Anyways...didnt have any problems with the her the whole summer, I never left her alone except to use the bathroom. She did make a few "off" comments for a 7 year old and talked a lot about kissing and stuff of that sort. Well yesterday she kept asking me if I liked my fish (the tank is in the bathroom) and my bird. Asked me like 20 times, but she does that a lot. I kept saying yes I loved all my animals. Well the girls were all running around shooting nerf guns and shooting the deer heads on the wall. This girl goes to the bathroom and comes out with the gun saying she killed my fish and was all happy and giggly about it. She proceeds to say she is going to kill my bird and deer. I thought she was joking and told her to tone it down and that we only hunted wild game and nothing in our house.

 

After they leave I go to the bathroom to find out...she DID kill my fish. Squirted all the handsoap in the tank :001_huh: Poor guy was dead.

 

I texted her mom immediatley (she is a nurse and sleeps/works weird hours so I didnt want to wake her) and she called me later and made the child apologize and told me this child said she didnt do anything and that maybe she was trying to "wash" the fish.

 

I explained that she had asked me all day if I loved my fish and that she was hysterical laughing and happy as can be when she told me she killed it. I told her I could no longer watch her kids and that thankfully my kids werent home to witness this, they would be totally freaked to hear someone killed a pet. She apologized and said she didnt know what to say and that she has never done anything like that before. I just said I am sorry too, but that crossed a line and I think the child needs some help.

 

WOW. I have had issues with every.single.kid I have ever babysat, but this totally freaked me out. She maliciously killed my fish, probably even planned it out. This is a disturbed child and I am SO worried what will become of her if they dont get her help. She is only 7.

 

I am done babysitting. Willl never do it again, ever. I know this is a special case, but I have been accused of not feeding a baby and had some other crazy issues and I think God is really telling me to not ever do this again. I am just so freaked I had this child paying with my kids.

Glad you stuck to your guns on this one. Perhaps the mom will have enough difficulty with this schedule upset to actually think something's up with that kid. Glad it was just the fish. But I'm sorry your fish died.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Jennifer, I don't know. I recently learned that a 12yo acquaintance of my boys is a bug-torturer. The adults in his life don't seem to have a problem with it; they seem to see it as a boys-will-be-boys phase or something.

 

But since I found out about it, I will not let my boys play with him. I don't think it is boys-will-be-boys at all. I think it is the fact that he listens to violent music and plays Assassin's Creed and Call of Duty all the time.

 

I've known lots and lots of jerks in my time but I've only known three people in my whole life that ever got joy out of killing animals as children. Two of them have spent time in prison and the third is the afore-mentioned boy who has not yet progressed beyond bug torture.

 

I think animal killing is a special category.

[scrappyhappymama]

I think the OP does have significant indication of trouble to report. Killing animals is a big deal, the sexual talk is another. At any rate, one makes the call, but it is up to CPS to decide to investigate. Let them decide, or not. They can also keep a report on file even if they do not investigate. If there is already one report on file, any more reports will put the child on their radar and could make a difference, for the better, for the family.

 

It is an imperfect system, but sometimes it takes an investigation to get a child help.

 

Yes, and for all anyone knows, there could already be reports on file for this child/family that were not yet enough to warrant an investigation, especially since you've heard that the child has been kicked out of other activities previously for inappropriate behavior. So, a call now could be the straw that tips CPS into investigating further and the first step to getting this poor little girl some help.

 

I'm not one to advocate involving social services willy nilly, but there is obviously *something* wrong with this little girl and possibly in the family dynamic. It sounds to me like the mom's comments are a plea for help as well. In any case, calling is not "punishing" the mom, but rather expressing concern for the well being of the child.

 

So sorry about your fish. :grouphug:

[Jennifer3141]

Dulcieramy,

 

I get what you're saying. I have a zoo at my house and if anyone killed any of them deliberately, I'd be livid.

 

DS killed a sand spider at the beach a couple of weeks ago and we all came down pretty hard on him. He was sobbing at the end and I remember thinking, "Oh thank heavens! Remorse!" But I'm also wondering if my most peaceful and gentle child didn't just have a moment of being a jerk. I think he was playing with it with a stick and accidentally murdered it. He was crying so hard that I never followed up on it. I know he doesn't have RAD. I'm pretty sure he's not a young psychopath.

 

My own kids have pressed my own boundaries at times. I wonder if the little girl didn't go after the bird because the OP was so (justifiably) horrified, like fart jokes sometimes get out of hand around here. One loose fart in the dark of the night = funny. A half hour of it and Mama is running for the guest bedroom!!!

But kids can do that. They can at times get annoyingly carried away with being obnoxious.

[Joanne]

Am I the only person who wonders if this girl isn't just a plain old jerk? Can't we just have jerks in the world anymore or do they all need an official DX?

 

!!

 

Except that the behavior of the 7 year old = very specific markers for very serious, known, researched disorders.

 

Killing a family (yours or someone else's) pet is not a plain old jerk. It's pathologic.

[kwickimom]

Am I the only person who wonders if this girl isn't just a plain old jerk? Can't we just have jerks in the world anymore or do they all need an official DX?

 

I think the OP is totally justified in cutting contact with the kid and family but I'm not sure diagnosing someone at the age of 7 as a sociopath for killing a fish is the way to go. Maybe she's just a jerk? Or a bigger jerk that day? Maybe she does feel gay but lives in one of the kinds of families who thinks she is going to hell for it?

 

I have called CPS on someone but I'm not sure I'd call on a dead fish or a little girl telling me she thinks she's gay.

 

I'd cut contact with the family because of the mom's response just as much as the kid's behavior. Wow. Way to teach respect of life and other people's property!!

 

Its beyond jerk. Far beyond jerk. Something is way off. Killing an animal and being happy about it is some sort of mental issue. Not normal, not even "jerk" normal.

 

I dont think I need to call CPS, but this is more than thinking she is gay and a dead fish.

[kwickimom]

Dulcieramy,

 

I get what you're saying. I have a zoo at my house and if anyone killed any of them deliberately, I'd be livid.

 

DS killed a sand spider at the beach a couple of weeks ago and we all came down pretty hard on him. He was sobbing at the end and I remember thinking, "Oh thank heavens! Remorse!" But I'm also wondering if my most peaceful and gentle child didn't just have a moment of being a jerk. I think he was playing with it with a stick and accidentally murdered it. He was crying so hard that I never followed up on it. I know he doesn't have RAD. I'm pretty sure he's not a young psychopath.

 

My own kids have pressed my own boundaries at times. I wonder if the little girl didn't go after the bird because the OP was so (justifiably) horrified, like fart jokes sometimes get out of hand around here. One loose fart in the dark of the night = funny. A half hour of it and Mama is running for the guest bedroom!!!

But kids can do that. They can at times get annoyingly carried away with being obnoxious.

 

 

She went after the bird probably because she had so much fun killing the fish. At that point I didnt know she had killed the fish.

[DawnM]

Wow. Red flags all over the place on this one.

[justamouse]

Wow, that was scary and I'm glad you told her no more sitting.

 

Sorry about the fish. :grouphug:

[Jennifer3141]

Except that the behavior of the 7 year old = very specific markers for very serious, known, researched disorders.

 

Killing a family (yours or someone else's) pet is not a plain old jerk. It's pathologic.

 

And if we were talking about a hamster or a kitten, I would definitely see your point. But this was a fish. Teenagers here fish Asian carp out of the river and whomp them on the pavement while we walk along the riverbank. I can see why someone less enlightened than a thoughtful adult would think it would be "funny" to kill a fish with soap.

 

Does the girl come from one of those families that treats animals as disposable? Some people/families are more respectful towards nature and animals than others.

 

I know I've seen some posts here about animal treatment that makes me shudder. "Hey, it's hamster. I'll just go get another one if we accidentally kill this one!" kind of thing.

 

And she killed the fish with soap (again, I'd be livid too!) but it's not like she carves a swastika on the dorsal fin and bit its head off.

 

I think socially we're just not that great to fish. Bettas are sold in Petsmart in cups too little for them to turn around in. We take pretty cool looking glass fish and inject them with radioactive dye which kills 90% of them before they leave the warehouse. And no one really gets too mand when invasive fish destroy entire ecosystems like LAKE MICHIGAN.

 

Like I said, I'd toss this whole family out of my life; primarily because it seems like their values and my values are too divergent. But I'm not sure I'd call CPS on them and I would be less than shocked if the caseworker made it apparent that they weren't taking me seriously over a dead fish. And I'm not sure I'd want the wrath of forming enemies over it. How would CPS investigate this? The moment they get a call about a child killing a "pet," they are going to darn well know who called.

 

For the record, we do have homeschool friends that we don't allow to the house anymore because they are too rough with our rabbits and their guinea pig drowned (!!!). Those are park friends only now and we don't see them that often. The mom and I are good friends but I think she's either raising a couple of serial killers or a couple of jerks. Time will tell I guess.

 

And btw kwickimom, way to go on your weight loss!!! Wow.

[Jennifer3141]

And you made me feel guilty about the algae on the side of my betta's aquarium, kwicki. She's all perfect and sparkly now and I gave her an extra little pat on the head. I am so very sorry for your loss. I hope you get another fishie soon. Personally, I love taking a bath at night and watching Lexi fish swim on the counter. So relaxing!!! :grouphug:

[Harriet Vane]

Numbers 2-3 are just heresay from kids ages 4 to 9. I have never witnessed anything. I am not sure number 1 or 4 requires a call. I thought DCFS/CPS is for abuse or neglect isusses? Her mom is in denial thats for sure, but I dont think she is abusive and I am not sure about neglectful. I should say that mom has been wonderful and seems like a good, involved mom, but she works a lot. I think maybe she was in shock and in denial when she found out this onfo and she told me she did not know what to say. Idk if neglectful includes ignoring a possible mental health issue? And I dont know for sure that the child is not in counseling. I dont think she is because I figured someone would have said something, but I cannot be sure.

 

They are not hearsay. The child told you of his/her actual experience.

 

There would be no harm in reporting it. I just doubt that DCFS will indicate the case for investigation. But you could BOTH report it and talk to the school counselor.

[Ria]

They are not hearsay. The child told you of his/her actual experience.

 

There would be no harm in reporting it. I just doubt that DCFS will indicate the case for investigation. But you could BOTH report it and talk to the school counselor.

 

:iagree:

 

Ria

[Harriet Vane]

Am I the only person who wonders if this girl isn't just a plain old jerk? Can't we just have jerks in the world anymore or do they all need an official DX?

 

I think the OP is totally justified in cutting contact with the kid and family but I'm not sure diagnosing someone at the age of 7 as a sociopath for killing a fish is the way to go. Maybe she's just a jerk? Or a bigger jerk that day? Maybe she does feel gay but lives in one of the kinds of families who thinks she is going to hell for it?

 

I have called CPS on someone but I'm not sure I'd call on a dead fish or a little girl telling me she thinks she's gay.

 

I'd cut contact with the family because of the mom's response just as much as the kid's behavior. Wow. Way to teach respect of life and other people's property!!

 

At the age of 7, no. There are classic red flags for either abuse or a psychiatric disorder or both.

[ma23peas]

Maybe she's just a jerk?

 

If we're going to go to maybes...maybe she had an abusive birth father, maybe her stepfather abuses her...maybe she's crying out through these obvious displays of extremes...maybe she needs help...not doing anything would not be the option I would choose.

[Ginevra]

And if we were talking about a hamster or a kitten, I would definitely see your point. But this was a fish. Teenagers here fish Asian carp out of the river and whomp them on the pavement while we walk along the riverbank. I can see why someone less enlightened than a thoughtful adult would think it would be "funny" to kill a fish with soap.

 

Does the girl come from one of those families that treats animals as disposable? Some people/families are more respectful towards nature and animals than others.

 

I know I've seen some posts here about animal treatment that makes me shudder. "Hey, it's hamster. I'll just go get another one if we accidentally kill this one!" kind of thing.

 

And she killed the fish with soap (again, I'd be livid too!) but it's not like she carves a swastika on the dorsal fin and bit its head off.

 

I think socially we're just not that great to fish. Bettas are sold in Petsmart in cups too little for them to turn around in. We take pretty cool looking glass fish and inject them with radioactive dye which kills 90% of them before they leave the warehouse. And no one really gets too mand when invasive fish destroy entire ecosystems like LAKE MICHIGAN.

 

I get what you're saying, but the descriptions kwicki speaks of is more than this. Children with normal social backgrounds think the death of an animal is sad, even a fish, that's why Finding Nemo was a hit movie. We have a family vacation house on a creek in the Chesapeake Bay. My kids have caught and ate crabs and fish since they were old enough to hold a little net from Target, so they do see sea creatures killed for food. But they still catch little shrimps and minnows and carry them around in a bucket like a "pet" for a while. Same with all the neices and nephews who come to the house, too. They treat sea creatures as food, but they have no difficulty making a distinction on a sea creature that is a pet, even a temporary pet you keep in a bucket for an afternoon. I have never seen any of them gleefully torture or kill the fish or sea creatures and would find it totally alarming if they did.

 

Taking pleasure in killing or harming defensless animals is a specifically identified characteristic for serious issues. It's just not normal for any child to take pleasure in taking an animal's life and the OP also said she had established that the pets were loved. So maliciously harming an animal when you have established that the animal is loved is the part that is even more antisocial.

[Joanne]

And if we were talking about a hamster or a kitten, I would definitely see your point. But this was a fish. Teenagers here fish Asian carp out of the river and whomp them on the pavement while we walk along the riverbank. I can see why someone less enlightened than a thoughtful adult would think it would be "funny" to kill a fish with soap.

 

Does the girl come from one of those families that treats animals as disposable? Some people/families are more respectful towards nature and animals than others.

 

.

 

The 7 year old established that the family and her caregiver valued and "loved" the fish. The 7 year old deliberately killed it.

 

It's not the type of living creature; it is the intent.

[annlaura]

So sorry kwicki! For your fish and having to deal with such a horrid situation. :grouphug:

[annlaura]

The 7 year old established that the family and her caregiver valued and "loved" the fish. The 7 year old deliberately killed it.

 

It's not the type of living creature; it is the intent.

 

And this brings me to something I've been wondering as I've made my way through all the posts. And I hope this isn't a foolish question, and I wouldn't equate the death of my cat or dog with the death of my fish by any means. But if the pet had been a cat or a dog, then would reporting to DCFS be easier/more reasonable? Or would the police get called first?

[texasmama]

Joanne, from what I understand it's ODD in childhood, conduct disorder in teens, then sociopath. In your studies have you seen statistics of CD teens going on to become sociopaths?

 

Conduct Disorder can be diagnosed at any age. A child/teen just needs to meet the DSM criteria in order to get the diagnosis. This is rare in childhood, but I have seen it. Many kids/teens with Conduct Disorder go on to receive a diagnosis of Antisocial Personality Disoder in adulthood, which is what laymen call "sociopaths".

 

This girl sounds very disturbed.

[kwickimom]

And if we were talking about a hamster or a kitten, I would definitely see your point. But this was a fish. Teenagers here fish Asian carp out of the river and whomp them on the pavement while we walk along the riverbank. I can see why someone less enlightened than a thoughtful adult would think it would be "funny" to kill a fish with soap.

 

Does the girl come from one of those families that treats animals as disposable? Some people/families are more respectful towards nature and animals than others.

 

I know I've seen some posts here about animal treatment that makes me shudder. "Hey, it's hamster. I'll just go get another one if we accidentally kill this one!" kind of thing.

 

And she killed the fish with soap (again, I'd be livid too!) but it's not like she carves a swastika on the dorsal fin and bit its head off.

 

I think socially we're just not that great to fish. Bettas are sold in Petsmart in cups too little for them to turn around in. We take pretty cool looking glass fish and inject them with radioactive dye which kills 90% of them before they leave the warehouse. And no one really gets too mand when invasive fish destroy entire ecosystems like LAKE MICHIGAN.

 

Like I said, I'd toss this whole family out of my life; primarily because it seems like their values and my values are too divergent. But I'm not sure I'd call CPS on them and I would be less than shocked if the caseworker made it apparent that they weren't taking me seriously over a dead fish. And I'm not sure I'd want the wrath of forming enemies over it. How would CPS investigate this? The moment they get a call about a child killing a "pet," they are going to darn well know who called.

 

For the record, we do have homeschool friends that we don't allow to the house anymore because they are too rough with our rabbits and their guinea pig drowned (!!!). Those are park friends only now and we don't see them that often. The mom and I are good friends but I think she's either raising a couple of serial killers or a couple of jerks. Time will tell I guess.

 

And btw kwickimom, way to go on your weight loss!!! Wow.

 

 

The point is....she asked me over and over if me and my kids liked my fish and then she plotted a way to kill it. soap. I am sure it was a torturous fish death. Yes I am not attached to the fish, but my kids cry everytime anything dies. We do hunt, and they have no problems humanely killing an animal, but wild game is not a beloved pet. I think it disturbs me most that she established that we liked the fish...and then she killed it.

 

 

thanks on the weightloss thing. I had to quit WW cause I dont have the money and so I need to pick a new plan before I gain anything back :001_huh:

[Laurie4b]

Hurting or killing animals (on purpose) is a red flag for professional help. In general, killing mammals would be worse that killing fish, reptiles, etc. because as humans we identify more with mammals (cute, furry, etc.) The fact that she appears to understand exactly what she did concerns me a great deal, however. IOW, killing fish in a creek would probably not as likely raise a professional red flag but the situation you describe does. She killed the fish to hurt you, apparently. Very scary. (And, BTW, she may have been born this way; don't necessarily blame the parent. That pattern of behavior is highly genetic. A kid in my neighborhood growing up had the nicest parents and they were just shocked when in high school, he was driving and his brother was almost killed and he was acting like he didn't care. The doctor said, "He doesn't." They couldn't comprehend it, but his adult life ended up with a typical criminal pattern. His little bro is a really nice guy--just like the parents are really nice people. )

 

 

I worked with the most violent kids in our state years ago part of the time I was in kids' mental health.

 

I would contact the mom and share the info about hurting animals being such a strong red flag. You might consider writing a letter instead of a conversation if that is easier. Make it clear that you are not being punitive, you are wanting to help the child and encourage her to hear you out in full. Be empathetic about how hard it must have been to hear that. But make sure from your end that she knows the facts . I don't think it's abnormal for a parent first hearing something like that to come up with a normalizing explanation; however, the facts you laid out don't leave that as an option in the end.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Laurie4b

[kathkath]

I shadowed a juvenile court judge awhile back and the judge walked me through her caseload that day. I then observed her address each one in the courtroom. Before court we looked over the cases together and she pointed out that the protocol for handling juveniles with animal killing on them was DIFFERENT than other offenders. They have a list of punishments in order of severity and would pretty much go down the list---first offense, first punishment/treatment, second offense--second punishment etc, but if the juvenile had a record of killing animals in his/her file, they would skip the first things on the list and move down faster. The judges took those kids very very seriously.

Edited July 28, 2011 by kathkath
sp

[Jennifer3141]

 

thanks on the weightloss thing. I had to quit WW cause I dont have the money and so I need to pick a new plan before I gain anything back :001_huh:

 

Can you do WW without meetings and do online only? I know WW wants people to be paying members on their site but there are a lot of people who squeak by just doing their own thing and those of us who are OP with the program try to help when we can. :)

[Laurie4b]

Jennifer, I don't know. I recently learned that a 12yo acquaintance of my boys is a bug-torturer. The adults in his life don't seem to have a problem with it; they seem to see it as a boys-will-be-boys phase or something.

 

But since I found out about it, I will not let my boys play with him. I don't think it is boys-will-be-boys at all. I think it is the fact that he listens to violent music and plays Assassin's Creed and Call of Duty all the time.

 

I've known lots and lots of jerks in my time but I've only known three people in my whole life that ever got joy out of killing animals as children. Two of them have spent time in prison and the third is the afore-mentioned boy who has not yet progressed beyond bug torture.

 

I think animal killing is a special category.

 

While I don't condone "bug torturing" it falls into a different category than what most mental health professionals mean by hurting animals. The further away an animal is from a mammal and/or pet, the less meaning it has mental health wise.

[Jennifer3141]

While I don't condone "bug torturing" it falls into a different category than what most mental health professionals mean by hurting animals. The further away an animal is from a mammal and/or pet, the less meaning it has mental health wise.

 

 

Exactly. That's why I'm not sure fish murder would even be worth the potential trouble to the family of the evil little whacko and the potential for developing an ENEMY/ENEMIES (the parents) in the world. Are these the kind of people who would retaliate on the OP?

 

I get that evil bad people just pop up sometimes but the vast majority come from evil bad homes and we never know it.

 

I'm simply stating that I'm not sure I'd risk poking this hornet's nest over a fish. Wipe the family from your life and move on!

 

There is still a chance that this is a very immature emotionally/intellectually child. My kids "got" death early because they have been exposed to it rather much in our home. I know they were years ahead of their friends on that issue for awhile. We have a 5 year old friend who is still waiting for his dead cat to dig up from the ground and my kids keep telling him, "Nope! All done! Once you're dead, you're dead. End of story." But some kids are later getting there and some households are REALLY dumb about death.

 

I do some of the paperwork for DH's medical practice and I was on the phone with a family a few weeks ago. Mind you, it takes me about 90 days to call on most billing issues with family because it takes that long for stuff to move through insurance and Medicare. The woman I talked to went into a closet to discuss the bill with me because she hadn't told her 8 year old son that the grandma was dead YET. They lived together. Does this 8 year think grandma is on vacation in Florida with CHF and being 98 years old??? What the what??

[LG Gone Wild]

To the OP

 

You handled that beautifully. That kid is creepy. I think the mom handled it to the best of her ability. She sounds like she just doesn't know what to do with the daughter.

 

The expression that comes to mind is "so and so has a bloody mouth".

[Harriet Vane]

Exactly. That's why I'm not sure fish murder would even be worth the potential trouble to the family of the evil little whacko and the potential for developing an ENEMY/ENEMIES (the parents) in the world. Are these the kind of people who would retaliate on the OP?

 

I get that evil bad people just pop up sometimes but the vast majority come from evil bad homes and we never know it.

 

I'm simply stating that I'm not sure I'd risk poking this hornet's nest over a fish. Wipe the family from your life and move on!

 

There is still a chance that this is a very immature emotionally/intellectually child. My kids "got" death early because they have been exposed to it rather much in our home. I know they were years ahead of their friends on that issue for awhile. We have a 5 year old friend who is still waiting for his dead cat to dig up from the ground and my kids keep telling him, "Nope! All done! Once you're dead, you're dead. End of story." But some kids are later getting there and some households are REALLY dumb about death.

 

I do some of the paperwork for DH's medical practice and I was on the phone with a family a few weeks ago. Mind you, it takes me about 90 days to call on most billing issues with family because it takes that long for stuff to move through insurance and Medicare. The woman I talked to went into a closet to discuss the bill with me because she hadn't told her 8 year old son that the grandma was dead YET. They lived together. Does this 8 year think grandma is on vacation in Florida with CHF and being 98 years old??? What the what??

 

Speaking gently . . .

 

I don't understand the mentality that stacks the needs of a vulnerable, possibly abused 7-year-old child against an adult's fear of retaliation????

[Jean in Newcastle]

Speaking gently . . .

 

I don't understand the mentality that stacks the needs of a vulnerable, possibly abused 7-year-old child against an adult's fear of retaliation????

 

I don't get it either. All people are suggesting is that the facts be reported to someone who can determine if this child really needs help and can help get her the help she needs.

[gardenmom5]

My understanding of Aspies is that the bold is not common. Hyperfocus/addictive like behavior around video or computer games that may include killing is common in spectrum kids. But I am not personally aware of death and killing being associated with aspies.

 

.

 

It's common enough that it made me take my little one in to be checked out because of his obsession with death (which predated my mother's last illness) was just like several of my older son's aspie friends'. (and he was most comfortable with aspies, so he had quite a few aspie friends)

[gardenmom5]

Asperger's ?!?! This is not part of Asperger's, but could belong to a comorbid condition. Definitely should be evaluated.

 

I took him to a DAN!naturopath, and it's amazing what changes in diet have done for him by removing sensitive food items. 1ds's friend, who was *really* death obsessed as a child was never diagnosed wtih anything more than SPD or asperger's. He's now 21, married, productive, in college, and a nice kid.

[WeeBeaks]

I'm sorry about your fish. And that behavior is very scary. :grouphug:

[Twilight Woods]

In IL you can call the 800 number for your county. Like for me it would be the will county health department. There should be a section in the phone book with a crisis phone number. You can call that number relay the facts and they can determine if the child needs mental health services. If they do they will come out to the child's house and do an initial eval right in the home.

 

I am not home right now and can't look in my phone book..... so I can't remember the specific agency name and I am not sure which county you are in.

 

The mother is an RN and should be well versed with any signs of abuse or mental health issues. As an RN she is also a mandatory reporter. I suggest makeing another call to her and reach out to her about your concerns. I can't imagine a mother ignoring some of these symptoms.

 

I can tell you from experience that kids DO say things for attention. It appears from what you have said that she is lacking in the attention at home. I hope and pray that is all it is. BUT if she is being mistreated at home all of this could be symptoms of that mistreatment [emotional, verbal, sexual etc].

[Jennifer3141]

Speaking gently . . .

 

I don't understand the mentality that stacks the needs of a vulnerable, possibly abused 7-year-old child against an adult's fear of retaliation????

 

Again, because kwicki doesn't KNOW. She suspects something is "off" based upon a dead fish mostly.

 

There is a reason the DSM is so conservative about dxing antisocial behavior in children. At points in many children's lives, they meet some of the criteria for antisocial behavior. We call that "growing up." It is the part of maturing that is really, really annoying.

 

We know that about 3% of the adult population has antisocial tendencies. But just from doing a quick search of old posts, there are a lot of us who are meeting "psychopaths." So either the 3% figure is way off or everyone here on this forum has really, really bad luck in neighbors and friends.

 

Information is good however, it's really easy for us as mothers to armchair internet diagnose a child based upon one bizarre (and troubling) incident.

 

Kwicki is a gentle and smart soul but she apparently isn't really close to this mom because of the ambiguity about the kids' lives. I swap kid watching with a couple of friends of mine and if I saw something like this happen with one of the kids, the moms and I would be figuring this out together. I also know a ton about those kids' families because we're women. We talk. I know which dads are cool and who the group dad jerk is. Kwicki is less certain of that which tells me she isn't intimately involved in these kids' lives so she cannot KNOW there is abuse.

 

I'm also saying this from the standpont of having a REAL diagnosed adult ASPD in our lives. When the federal investigation is over and his medical license is gone, I intend to blog the heck out of this experience because ASPD people are a real trip to h-e-double hockey sticks!!!

 

Also, if there is the kind of abuse that would make this child ASPD, it's too late. We can't fix that with any reliability. If the child is just one of those unfortunate "blips" gentically, we can't fix that either. We cannot give people empathy yet.

 

Having spent years defending my family from someone with ASPD, yes I would take that into consideration before dealing with it again. My husband did the right thing by communicating what is going on up here but I still wish we'd simply left town a couple of years ago and started over and I LOVE my area, my friends, my home, my land, etc. But this whacko in our lives... if we could do it over, I'd have put my foot down and let someone else deal with Dr. Death. And yep, this evil guy would have done all the vile things you think doctors should be prevented from doing and that would have been tragic and sick. But it wouldn't have been us having to fend him off (mostly alone.) If I could go back in time, I would have let the bad guy win. Absolutely.

[Harriet Vane]

Again, because kwicki doesn't KNOW. She suspects something is "off" based upon a dead fish mostly. . . .

 

 

To respond, I'll go back to these two posts:

 

Originally Posted by strider:

 

Speaking gently . . .

 

I don't understand the mentality that stacks the needs of a vulnerable, possibly abused 7-year-old child against an adult's fear of retaliation????

 

*****

Originally posted by Jean:

 

I don't get it either. All people are suggesting is that the facts be reported to someone who can determine if this child really needs help and can help get her the help she needs.

[texasmama]

Also, if there is the kind of abuse that would make this child ASPD, it's too late. We can't fix that with any reliability.

 

I'm gobsmacked by the above statement. Truly.

 

This child is seven years old, hardly a "lost cause".

[Jennifer3141]

I'm gobsmacked by the above statement. Truly.

 

This child is seven years old, hardly a "lost cause".

 

This is why I think the term "psychopath" should not be thrown around as it relates to this particular child with the information we have so far. You can be as "gobsmacked" all you want but we cannot currently cure or even effectively treat antisocial personality disorder. The ONLY thing we can do is institutionalize them and we aren't doing that to "treat" those patients. We do that to protect US.

 

We cannot currently give people empathy. For the small percentage of people who truly suffer (and the term "suffer" as it applies to this situation is questionable for the patient themselves) from ASPD, there is no cure.

[Ria]

This is why I think the term "psychopath" should not be thrown around as it relates to this particular child with the information we have so far. You can be as "gobsmacked" all you want but we cannot currently cure or even effectively treat antisocial personality disorder. The ONLY thing we can do is institutionalize them and we aren't doing that to "treat" those patients. We do that to protect US.

 

We cannot currently give people empathy. For the small percentage of people who truly suffer (and the term "suffer" as it applies to this situation is questionable for the patient themselves) from ASPD, there is no cure.

 

:iagree:

[Harriet Vane]

I'm gobsmacked by the above statement. Truly.

 

This child is seven years old, hardly a "lost cause".

 

:iagree:

[Harriet Vane]

This is why I think the term "psychopath" should not be thrown around as it relates to this particular child with the information we have so far. You can be as "gobsmacked" all you want but we cannot currently cure or even effectively treat antisocial personality disorder. The ONLY thing we can do is institutionalize them and we aren't doing that to "treat" those patients. We do that to protect US.

 

We cannot currently give people empathy. For the small percentage of people who truly suffer (and the term "suffer" as it applies to this situation is questionable for the patient themselves) from ASPD, there is no cure.

 

There are some red flags here. No one has diagnosed her. Folks have expressed concern based on the red flags and advocated for assessment and intervention whether the problem be abuse, RAD, or other psychiatric disorders.

[texasmama]

This is why I think the term "psychopath" should not be thrown around as it relates to this particular child with the information we have so far. You can be as "gobsmacked" all you want but we cannot currently cure or even effectively treat antisocial personality disorder. The ONLY thing we can do is institutionalize them and we aren't doing that to "treat" those patients. We do that to protect US.

 

We cannot currently give people empathy. For the small percentage of people who truly suffer (and the term "suffer" as it applies to this situation is questionable for the patient themselves) from ASPD, there is no cure.

 

A seven year old cannot be diagnosed with APD. I agree that she cannot be labeled with anything, including armchair lay diagnoses such as "psychopath". It is not the OP's job to "fix" her, just to report any suspected child abuse or neglect.

[swellmomma]

Conduct Disorder can be diagnosed at any age. A child/teen just needs to meet the DSM criteria in order to get the diagnosis. This is rare in childhood, but I have seen it. Many kids/teens with Conduct Disorder go on to receive a diagnosis of Antisocial Personality Disoder in adulthood, which is what laymen call "sociopaths".

 

This girl sounds very disturbed.

 

 

:iagree: DS was diagnosed with Conduct Disorder at 8 years old. DD was Diagnoses with ODD with some CD behaviours at age 6. That does not necessarily mean they will be sociopaths. In fact with DD in particular this past year they decided to drop the label of having CD behaviours, and are considering dropping the ODD label too she is maturing and growing.

 

With DS it is a harder issue, but I see growth and change in him slowly but surely. We won't know until he is an adult if the label will change to ASPD, but I am fighting hard to help him now so it doesn't.

 

While usually CD is not diagnosed until the teen years when a child is showing extreme behaviours it can be Dx earlier. THe problem then is getting the chlid help which is a whole other story. Many Dr's are quick to write off CD kids as lost causes and claim it can't be treated. If her mother is already not doing anything to get her help, and is just sweeping it under the rug this child may never be helped because the mom will not battle for the services. And trust me it is a huge battle to get any services for a child with Conduct Disorder, short of institutionalizing them.