What is the point?

[Tohru]

Please help me out here...

 

I've got 2 big issues I need help with:

 

First, I'm trying, struggling to decide what to do with ds and his high school years. I have the LA, Science, and Math sequence all planned out and it's fine. I can see the progression of each and how it leads to a certain maturity in thinking and growing knowledge.

 

My issue is with History.

 

What is the point of studying World History when he's going to have to do it again when he hits college?

I went back to school a few years ago and the Western Civilization and Humanities courses contained the exact same content as what I keep seeing for high school. It just seems so...pointless. Wont he get burnt out reviewing the same tidbit of history over and over? From Grammar stage to Dialectical he forgot most the stuff he was exposed to, so everything seemed new and interesting again, but now for high school it's just boring review for him. I just don't see the point if he's going to have to review the same information again in a few years. What is the point of doing Ancients-Medieval-Modern now when he'll have to do it again in a few years?

 

The other thing that has been bothering me TREMENDOUSLY is that ALL the books I have read on homeschooling have been written by people who did NOT do high school with their students, this includes the WTM and LCC.

Please recommend a good homeschool book written by some one that actually homeschooled a high school student.

 

ETA: I have the 1999 WTM edition, which is 12 years old :) I didn't mean any offense, just been annoyed and frustrated trying to figure it all out.

Edited June 20, 2011 by jadedone80

[NancyNellen]

The other thing that has been bothering me TREMENDOUSLY is that ALL the books I have read on homeschooling have been written by people who did NOT do high school with their students, this includes the WTM and LCC.

Please recommend a good homeschool book written by some one that actually homeschooled a high school student.

 

Jessie Wise, Susan's mother and co-author of the WTM, home schooled Susan all the way through high school. So they are quite qualified to write about it.

[Tohru]

I know Jessie homeschooled Susan and her brothers. I started with the WTM from the 1st edition when I began homeschooling in 2003.

Currently, it's those high school resource lists that annoy me. ie: Seriously, did Jessie really use Vocabulary from Classical Roots with Susan?

[Kim in SouthGa]

I think the point would be the same as doing it three times (cycles) previously-you get deeper each time. I'm sure a college class will go into much more depth, even if you are using a college text at home, because (hopefully) the professor will be an expert in the field and have more to develop. Or I could be completely wrong. We love history and learn something new each time we study a time period.

ETA: I also think that with WTM, followed strictly, there is more of an emphasis on great books in high school with history just coming up along side it to support and give context. So there should definitely be something new to learn in college. I know I heard the word Mesopotamia for the first time in college. I know, says a lot about my high school education!

Edited June 20, 2011 by Kim in SouthGa

[regentrude]

What is the point of studying World History when he's going to have to do it again when he hits college?

I went back to school a few years ago and the Western Civilization and Humanities courses contained the exact same content as what I keep seeing for high school. .

 

I am not sure I understand the question - it's a bit like asking why one should have to study English every year.

There is SO much history to study that it is quite possible to design a World history class that has virtually no overlap with the college class he will take later. Sure, the basic series of epochs will be the same - but the focus of study, the primary documents the student reads, the topics which are researched in detail can be extremely different.

It is not possible to comprehensively cover all of World history in four years of high school, and not in four years of college either.

 

I am not aware that students take four years of world history in college (if they are not history majors). So in four years of high school, you are able to cover a lot more, go deeper, read more literature. If you have him take AP, he might even get out of his college history altogether. Now if he is going into history in college, the analysis and discussion will be deeper - it's like layers of an onion that get peeled away.

 

To me, the basic reason behind teaching world history is to make my student understand the world, how our current situation has come about, the background behind world literature, art, daily politics. I am not going to wait for college to *maybe* teach a little bit.

Edited June 20, 2011 by regentrude

[ma23peas]

I am homeschooling high school and find world history to be a big help! We tend to apply it to deeper subjects..my children do debate so we study history that applies to the resolution that year...we learned a great deal about India/Russia the last two years,

 

And I disagree on the history in college, I was pre-med and never took one world history in college, I took Technology and Civilization instead, many universities offer option histories that may appeal to the student who wants a change.

 

I feel world history is so important in learning how to make current events relevant...you could do an in depth study just on the Mid-East crises...focus on the beginnings and work your way up...the same thing for communism/dictators....follow those countries that have such a government and work your way up/back to see if you can understand why they chose such a system...it's positives/negatives etc.

 

I think world history is so much more than just memorizing dates and events (which is what I got from AP history)...make it a study in humanity and decisions...that's what makes history so fascinating!

[Guest]

I went back to school a few years ago and the Western Civilization and Humanities courses contained the exact same content as what I keep seeing for high school.

 

Can you clarify a little bit? Are you looking at syllabi, particular textbooks, lists of contemporary writing to see that sameness?

[Ester Maria]

The point is CONTEXT that you get studying history chronologically, especially if paired up with literature, art history and philosophy. It provides a much broader, solid foundation to further build on - in most universities you will not find that, but decontextualized speed-through "Western civilization" courses which are okay as a summary and an easy A for somebody with that context already, but superficial at best for somebody without it.

 

History is a complex field and it can be approached from various angles, focusing on various things, so even if he finds the same content in college, he may find a different perspective, different documents considered, in a different broader context. It is really not about learning a certain set of trivia information, history is more like a "glue" area for many other things you learn and for knowing where events and ideas stem from. It is very difficult to be "culturally literate", so to speak, without a clear progression of history in your mind with all those connections that are established when you tie history to other fields - and high school is a perfect time to do that on a more "serious" level than what can be accomplished in grammar / logic years.

[AnitaMcC]

And I disagree on the history in college, I was pre-med and never took one world history in college, I took Technology and Civilization instead, many universities offer option histories that may appeal to the student who wants a change.

 

 

Similar here.. I never took World History.

 

Usually a university degree only requires something like:

9-10 credits Core competency (English/Writing, communications, and math which some may be tested out of these so the courses themselves are not required),

9-12 credits in humanities and the arts,

6-9 credits in social sciences,

7-11 credits sciences and math,

3-6 credits in Interdisciplinary Studies.

And there are tons of options to choose from for each category.

 

The only history courses I took were China history and U.S. History II. That was it.

[cathmom]

I think this is an issue with the American system in general. You study certain things in high school to get into college, and then the college makes you re-study those same things before you can go on to specializing in your major. However, I highly doubt that many college students study a full Ancient-Medieval-Modern cycle unless, as a PP noted, they are history majors, and possibly not even then.

 

But I don't get the criticism of WTM in there. Jessie homeschooled all of her children through high school as far as I know, and Susan has just graduated her second. Jessie also has tutored many students, and Susan teaches college. I think they're qualified to talk about homeschooling high school. :confused:

[tex-mex]

 

The only history courses I took were China history and U.S. History II. That was it.

I was a Liberal Studies major and I did not take a history class, either. I took Ethnic Studies, Old Testament, New Testament, and a summer class on the Book of Daniel. I also took the required psychology, philosophy, sociology, and other Humanities courses -- but no World or US History. :001_huh:

 

If it helps, I love history. I am covering it in depth with my son before he goes to college. However, here in TX, it is mandatory the college student takes US History as an undergrad. (Which is why I am going over World History... LOL) ;)

[tex-mex]

I am not sure I understand the question - it's a bit like asking why one should have to study English every year.

There is SO much history to study that it is quite possible to design a World history class that has virtually no overlap with the college class he will take later. Sure, the basic series of epochs will be the same - but the focus of study, the primary documents the student reads, the topics which are researched in detail can be extremely different.

It is not possible to comprehensively cover all of World history in four years of high school, and not in four years of college either.

 

I am not aware that students take four years of world history in college (if they are not history majors). So in four years of high school, you are able to cover a lot more, go deeper, read more literature. If you have him take AP, he might even get out of his college history altogether. Now if he is going into history in college, the analysis and discussion will be deeper - it's like layers of an onion that get peeled away.

 

To me, the basic reason behind teaching world history is to make my student understand the world, how our current situation has come about, the background behind world literature, art, daily politics. I am not going to wait for college to *maybe* teach a little bit.

:iagree:

[tex-mex]

 

But I don't get the criticism of WTM in there. Jessie homeschooled all of her children through high school as far as I know, and Susan has just graduated her second. Jessie also has tutored many students, and Susan teaches college. I think they're qualified to talk about homeschooling high school. :confused:

Correct.

 

I noted in SWB's recent FB post she now is paying college tuition for both children now. I would think that qualifies her to talk about homeschooling high schoolers? :confused:

[creekland]

I never took any history course in college. I had AP credit - actually, I think that one was Clep credit and my others were AP now that I think about it, but nonetheless, I never took history in college.

 

It probably depends on which college one goes to.

[Janice in NJ]

The history my child learns in college will reflect and build on the history he has learned in high school. The college English classes, math classes, and science classes will do the same.

 

If we studied history in high school using middle-school methods, I can see how my kids might find it repetitious. I am reading McCullough's new book The Greater Journey. I have read about this period of history before; I have been introduced to the characters. But I have only met them; I haven't spent time with them. And I haven't spent time with them while they were in Paris. So I am enjoying the story, and I am looking forward to the next "ah-ha" moment. History is about thousands of years and millions of lives and umpteen influences - a sea of chance v. causality. A wild romp. And the more I learn, the more I enjoy it.

 

I would recommend that you change up the materials if your son finds it boring. While my kids don't like doing the work, no one has attached "boring" to history around here.

 

J. Wise hsed her kids. But many of the materials she used are no longer available. Not a problem. She had the experience to recommend a wide range of materials that could work for hsers. There are no silver bullets here. Because we are not university-trained teachers, we are not cardboard cutouts as educators. We all bring a wide range of skill and experience to each hsing subject. So the personnel pool begs for a wide range of materials. I respect Mrs. Wise for recognizing that. Smart. Wise? (Sorry. But , in my case, the pun fits here!)

 

I believe I have read somewhere that S.W. Bauer initially started planning the education of her gang; the book grew from those plans. Her kids were little folk when the book was first published. And yes, she and her husband are home educating.

 

If you don't like VfCR, don't use it. That's why TWTM authors generously pay for these boards. They recognize that many voices can target the needs of the group better than just their own.

 

May I gently ask a question, "Do you own a copy of TWTM? Have you read it more than once? Which sections speak to you and which sections do you disagree with?" I am sorry. I don't spend a ton of time here. So I'm not sure we have intersected enough that I can answer your questions effectively. If I knew you better, I might be able to suggest some other authors, who hsed, that fit the style of hsing you prefer.

 

If you can put a label on what you do, I'm sure the group can suggest some other authors. If you are looking for advice on classical education from someone who has done it, then you are in the right place. The folks on this board have done it and are doing it. I have learned so much from them!:001_smile:

 

Hoping to connect some more!

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[Otter]

If you'd like books that address high school specifically you might give Cafi Cohen's Homeschooling the Teen Years and Homeschoolers' College Admissions Handbook a try. I bought these two last year when I started getting nervous about high school transcripts and such and they were a great help. They don't solve the "which curriculum to use" issue, but if anything was capable of that we wouldn't need this forum. What they did for me was to reassure me and point me in some new directions.

I just ordered the Teenager's Guide to School Outside the Box for my upcoming sophomore. I'm trying to let her help me in shaping her high school years. I'll let you know if that book offers much help.

[Onceuponatime]

I can't imagine History becoming boring! There is more than enough variety to last a lifetime. I am always chagrined at the amount of information we never get around to studying and learning. There are so many directions to travel, so many rabbits to chase. A History program is just a starting point.

[In The Great White North]

What is the point of studying World History when he's going to have to do it again when he hits college?

 

I did not take World History in college either. I took American History (yet again) and the course was very different from the one I had in high school.

 

If your dc are doing the exact same thing three times, you need to take another look at what you are using/expecting.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I know Jessie homeschooled Susan and her brothers. I started with the WTM from the 1st edition when I began homeschooling in 2003.

Currently, it's those high school resource lists that annoy me. ie: Seriously, did Jessie really use Vocabulary from Classical Roots with Susan?

 

If you don't think that particular book is useful, there are plenty of other vocab resources out there (Wordly Wise, English From the Roots Up, a study of foreign languages with attention to derivatives, wide reading while keeping a vocab book of interesting words).

 

Since there are often 2-4 suggested resources for a given subject at a given level, I don't think that Jesse Wise or SWB had the opportunity to personally op test every single one. They are suggestions of books that might be able to meet the needs of your household.

 

If they don't, use something else. It's not like you'll lose your homeschooling license for picking a resource that more closely aligns with your kids' needs.

 

For history, I studied it in high school and in college and have done much history reading since then. I rarely find myself thinking that what I'm reading offers me no new insights.

 

In fact when we moved to Europe, I realized that the Thirty Years' War and its aftermath had been almost completely skipped over in all of my history classes. Yet this is a war that changed the face of Europe and cast the die for many of the European conflicts of the modern age. But aside from mentioning its name, it just didn't come up (really, how could they have skipped the Defenistration of Prague - that's such fun history).

 

The speed at which a year long history survey course has to travel leaves many gaps. There will be plenty for a student to learn if he takes those courses again in college (which as others have pointed out, isn't a sure thing).

[Harriet Vane]

Please help me out here...

 

I've got 2 big issues I need help with:

 

First, I'm trying, struggling to decide what to do with ds and his high school years. I have the LA, Science, and Math sequence all planned out and it's fine. I can see the progression of each and how it leads to a certain maturity in thinking and growing knowledge.

 

My issue is with History.

 

What is the point of studying World History when he's going to have to do it again when he hits college?

I went back to school a few years ago and the Western Civilization and Humanities courses contained the exact same content as what I keep seeing for high school. It just seems so...pointless. Wont he get burnt out reviewing the same tidbit of history over and over? From Grammar stage to Dialectical he forgot most the stuff he was exposed to, so everything seemed new and interesting again, but now for high school it's just boring review for him. I just don't see the point if he's going to have to review the same information again in a few years. What is the point of doing Ancients-Medieval-Modern now when he'll have to do it again in a few years?

 

The other thing that has been bothering me TREMENDOUSLY is that ALL the books I have read on homeschooling have been written by people who did NOT do high school with their students, this includes the WTM and LCC.

Please recommend a good homeschool book written by some one that actually homeschooled a high school student.

 

Your ds will not necessarily have to do world history in college. I didn't. I studied British history--it segued in nicely with the British lit emphasis of my English degree.

 

Second, Jessie Wise homeschooled three children all the way through high school. Susan has homeschooled one all the way through high school and has the second one almost done. She is also a college professor. They are well qualified to address the high school years.

[Matryoshka]

I also did not take a single History class in college. I also agree that the four years you have in high school will offer a great scope and platform for anything your student wants to learn later.

 

I did take courses in college that added to my understanding of the history of the world - I chose them partly based on things I felt hadn't been touched on much in my high school classes - I took Indian (Asian) Anthropology, Chinese Literature, Comparative European Politics, American Foreign Policy - none of these were in the History department, though. And none of them were the types of broad survey courses you get in high school.

[Nan in Mass]

I think it can happen that history is a repeat in high school. But it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. My middle one has finished his history sequence through college. Each part picked up where the other left off as smoothly as one could wish. Perhaps we were just lucky? He outlined Kingfisher, then read Spielvogel with his great books a la TWTM, then did humanities 1+2 in college. Each survey went into more depth than the previous one. The last one contained much more art history. In other words, if the level of the course goes up appropriately with each repetition, then all will be well.

 

-Nan

[Kris in Wis]

If you'd like books that address high school specifically you might give Cafi Cohen's Homeschooling the Teen Years and Homeschoolers' College Admissions Handbook a try. I bought these two last year when I started getting nervous about high school transcripts and such and they were a great help. They don't solve the "which curriculum to use" issue, but if anything was capable of that we wouldn't need this forum. What they did for me was to reassure me and point me in some new directions.

 

Agree! Cafi has some timeless suggestions for high school - her books helped me as well. Even though I homeschool classically, I was reassured and encouraged by her books.

[Tohru]

Thanks so much for the positive information. There is a lot to consider here.

 

We've been going at the WTM way for a lot longer than I'd thought and it was such a shocker to realize how many years have passed. The fear that maybe we've been doing it wrong all these years has really gripped me.

 

I was an Accounting major and had to take a history course that used the same Spielvogel World History text most recommended for high school on these boards. The Humanities text was just an overview of exerts from classics, such as Epic of Gilgamesh, Homer, etc. Most the other students hadn't been exposed to any of this and it was so wonderful to see the "new" enlightenment when they encountered it for the first time. The experience reminded me of something I had read in The Closing of the American Mind.

 

As far as book recommendations, thanks for the Cafi Cohen. Some one also told me about Designing Your Own Classical Curriculum and Teaching the Trivium as well. Both were written after their children graduated. I think these should help give me more to digest. I did edit to add that I have the 1999 WTM edition, which is over 12 years old, before SWB had begun homeschooling high school and I believe before she even had her Masters. Strange to think we're oldtimers.

[LilBlueMouse]

There is also a book entitled "College Prep Homeschool" by Chandra Byers which gives some good information about putting classes together and transcripts. It had some good information about the high school years.

[regentrude]

There are more books (I only read the first one):

 

Homeschooling for excellence by David and Micki Colfax who homeschooled through high school and got three sons into Harvard.

 

If they don't know what they are talking about, I don't know who would.

 

Morning by morning: how we homeschooled our African-American sons into Ivy league by Paula Penn-Nabrit

[stripe]

If you do the same thing with your 6 year old as with a 14 year old, yes, they will get bored.

 

I took some of the same classes in high school as in college (such as physics and American governmemt) and learned more the second time. I also read some of the same books, such as Crime and Punishment, and managed to extract additional meaning the second time around.

 

I think the key is not to use the same resources and the same level of analysis.

 

ETA what about the books listed on amazon for homeschooling high school? You might also look at something like Clonlara or other more dictatorial (for lack of a better world) homeschool oversight type organizations?

Edited June 20, 2011 by stripe

[mcconnellboys]

I'm confused. Susan and her husband have been hsing all their children. She has one graduated, through a gap year, and now in college. She has two others currently in hs.

 

The point of going through history 3 times is that you're supposed to be looking at more specifics, more detail, more connections each time through, not just doing a general overview of re-memorizing the same basic facts and/or dates over and over again....

[Tohru]

I'm confused. Susan and her husband have been hsing all their children. She has one graduated, through a gap year, and now in college. She has two others currently in hs.

 

The point of going through history 3 times is that you're supposed to be looking at more specifics, more detail, more connections each time through, not just doing a general overview of re-memorizing the same basic facts and/or dates over and over again....

 

 

*sigh* I'm pretty sure that I made it clear twice that I have the 1999 edition - it was written before SWB had high schoolers.

 

I've done a lot of research on these boards since some one mentioned the fact that her kids are in college now. It occurred to me that I should just get the updated 3rd edition rather than bemoan the old WTM edition written before her kids were in high school. It seems a lot of things have changed in 3 editions, such as the teaching suggestions and book recommendations.

 

On another note, thanks so much for the other book titles and some fantastic ideas on how to deal with history.

[Hunter]

I seldom hear this book discussed, but I think it is very good. It was the book that convinced me to use American School with my boys.

 

No Regrets by Alexandra Swann

[Elizabeth in WA]

*sigh* I'm pretty sure that I made it clear twice that I have the 1999 edition - it was written before SWB had high schoolers.

 

But even by that edition, Jessie Wise had homeschooled through high school, had she not? Isn't she a co-author of the book?

[cathmom]

*sigh* I'm pretty sure that I made it clear twice that I have the 1999 edition - it was written before SWB had high schoolers.

 

I've done a lot of research on these boards since some one mentioned the fact that her kids are in college now. It occurred to me that I should just get the updated 3rd edition rather than bemoan the old WTM edition written before her kids were in high school. It seems a lot of things have changed in 3 editions, such as the teaching suggestions and book recommendations.

 

 

 

But even by that edition, Jessie Wise had homeschooled through high school, had she not? Isn't she a co-author of the book?

 

Yes, I agree. I could compare (I have both the original and the latest editions) but I don't think the rhetoric stage plan and recommendations have changed that much. I would still consider the original WTM to be a valid source for high school info, but to each his/her own.

[Halftime Hope]

for covering history in high school even if they do take a World History Survey class in college as a part of some kind of general education (core) requirement.

 

I want to control their initial exposure to the material. I want them to have a frame of reference from our discussions in high school, so that when they hit that survey course, they'll have a filter in place, to measure the biases the prof brings to his teaching.

 

If for no other reason, if not for covering in depth the literature, persons, art and sciences of the time, if not for being able to study the thinking and philosophies of the age, if not for getting to know both the dastardly characters and the heroes--ones we want to emulate--then for the value of having a frame of reference.