(CC) If you've read "Why Christian Kids Rebel" by Tim Kimmel

[Debbie in OR]

I need some perspective.

 

I just finished it and my mind has just gone bananas alternating between being really, really mad and really, really certain that he's right on.

 

(My dh is more concerned that I'm panicked since it's counterproductive to faith. Which it is. I get that. But, holy cow.)

 

Here's where I could use some perspective: is it my imagination or is he VERY condescending in his "concerns" (read: disgust?) with homeschooling/Christian schooling? If I get past that, I think he's got some very good points. Very good. But it gets very murky because of what I am interpreting as this "you have completely mis-served your children if you have kept them holed up in a hideaway from the world". There did not seem to be much grace put out there, which I think is hilarious since his previous book was called "Grace-Based Parenting". :001_huh:

 

But, seriously, I want to pay attention to what he is saying because I do think there is some excellent insight in there. But I am struggling with the credibility of it because it feels wrapped in condescension.

 

Somebody tell me I am over-analyzing it...or that my grid is askew...or maybe not.

[Natalieclare]

:lurk5:

 

I haven't read the book, but I'd sure love to see some responses to your question!

[Joanne]

Admitting up front that I am also critical of the conservative Christian homeschooling community, and I find his contrarian view refreshing...........

 

I liked it.

[Aelwydd]

I haven't read it, but based on your post, I'm definitely interested. Amazon has a bunch of really good reviews here.

 

The first review by a Christian journalist does not mention any condescension. She does say that Dr. Kimmel uses sound logic and honesty in his arguments.

 

This diatribe would be an example of what I consider condescending. The blogger basically categorizes all Christian home schoolers as being in the same uptight, super-controlling camp. She also casts aspersions on SWB's own hs'ing experience. (Any viable points she makes end up being lost in the sarcasm and her assumptions that all Christian hs'ers operate exactly the same.)

 

Obviously, the hs'ing community is hardly a monolith, and SWB proves she has finely honed critical thinking skills by approaching weaknesses within certain hs'ing philosophies with honest evaluation.

 

If Dr. Kimmel is taking a similar stance, then I don't count that as him belittling or putting down certain Christian hs types, so much as I see him offering up a critical analysis to cure their "blind side." Such a critique is almost always unappreciated by those who are fundamentally incapable of admitting any weakness in their world view, no matter what religion they are.

 

Anyway, I really want to read that book.

[Hillary in KS]

Hm. It's been 3-4 years since I read it. I don't remember much condescension, though. Not that it's not there, just that it wasn't something that stuck with me if it was.

 

As far as the general idea of hiding kids away from the world comment, I sort of agree. We do not help our children if that is our objective in homeschooling or using Christian schools. However, I think that this is a stereotype of homeschooling that those ignorant of hsing realities often possess. The vast majority of Christian hsers are very involved in life outside the home.

 

And as for Christian schools, well, sometimes I wonder if many of today's Christian schools aren't much more than public schools with a chapel requirement included. not much hiding away from the world there! :D

 

I remember being not terribly impressed with the book, though. You've made me want to pull it off the shelf.

[Aelwydd]

As far as the general idea of hiding kids away from the world comment, I sort of agree. We do not help our children if that is our objective in homeschooling or using Christian schools. However, I think that this is a stereotype of homeschooling that those ignorant of hsing realities often possess. The vast majority of Christian hsers are very involved in life outside the home.

 

:iagree:

 

Exactly. To be sure, there are Christian hs'ers that fit the bill of "cocooning." But, to paint all of us with the same broad brush does the hs'ing community, as a whole, an injustice.

[Debbie in OR]

:iagree:

 

Exactly. To be sure, there are Christian hs'ers that fit the bill of "cocooning." But, to paint all of us with the same broad brush does the hs'ing community, as a whole, an injustice.

 

Thanks, ladies...this is helpful. I am thinking after reading your posts that perhaps it is because we never went into hs-ing with the intention of sheltering (not in the way he is talking about) and certainly not "cocooning" that I am feeling like we all got lumped into one big representative pot. That's what's rankling me. (Although, honestly, if that's how others roll with their hs, I am ok with that too.) But we have purposefully tried to not be cocooners (is that even a word?), while still sheltering in a responsible way.

 

Anyhow, it sounds like maybe I have overreacted because it felt over-generalized. That's good because there were definitely things I am taking away from it and things my dh and I are re-visiting. I just needed to come down off the wall :tongue_smilie:.

 

For those of you who it's been awhile since you've read it, if you do pull it off the shelf and have other thoughts about it, I would love to hear. :bigear:

[TravelingChris]

Look, my oldest has sort of rejected Christianity for a while (though he insists he isn't an atheist or even an agnostic). We didn't coccoon but we also couldn't stop what caused the issue- major depression. He, at that time, really felt God abandoned him. Since his issue isn't really intellectual but pain based, I am hopeful for his eventual return to the faith.

[Sweetpeach]

My children enjoyed a certain amount of "cocooning" in their preschool years and early elementary days. As they grew older, I felt it was my responsibility to start pulling off the protective layers of those early years.

It was a many-paged manifesto that I found linked to Ann Voskamp's blog, A Holy Experience, that got me thinking about what I wanted for my children in terms of homeschooling and doing real life.

(Voskamp isn't the author of the essay and I don't know if she still has it linked to her page.) The essay was (imho) an honest assessment of the Christian homeschooling community and the importance of grace and humility when parenting/schooling children into highschool.

Someone might be able to link that here.

Warmly, Tricia

[Sweetpeach]

This diatribe would be an example of what I consider condescending. The blogger basically categorizes all Christian home schoolers as being in the same uptight, super-controlling camp.

 

Wow, I read through that post and the comments . . . and I have a better appreciation for why people in my outside-the-church community might think I'm a complete nut-job. Homeschooling for us has always been about academics and flexibility of scheduling, esp. when my Mr. worked long stretches away from home in the oil&gas industry and then would be home for long stretches.

 

This comment caught my eye: " Most of life is figuring out HOW TO NAVIGATE! How to win people over – how to influence people to go your way – how to get along with people who are different – how to convince someone to give you more time – how to charm your way past the door. I can guarantee you that the average public schooler is far more adept at all of those things than the smartest homeschooled kid could ever dream of being" and I have to say, I honestly and truly believe the author is correct in this assessment. It really doesn't matter how bright or academically capable a child is . . . if said child matures into an adult who can't understand these social dynamics, then it matter little what sort of academic foundation he stands on.

 

I cross paths with many homeschoolers who don't take the above into consideration.

 

I often wonder if "Christian homeschooler rebellion" is more just trying out life that was held from them for many years than heart-level, leaving the faith sorta rebellion.

 

Warmly, Tricia

[Mom0012]

I haven't read the book, so I probably shouldn't post, but I can't help it. :tongue_smilie: My husband always says it's the kids that were raised very strictly that really go wild when they get to college. I don't know if that's true or not, and I'm not overly strict with my kids. What really worries me is that my kids aren't getting much exposure to popular culture. I don't want them exposed to it, but I'm afraid of not exposing them because I don't want them to feel like they don't belong anywhere.

 

My daughter is in a brownie troop with all ps girls and I see huge differences between her and them. She does get along with the other girls, but when I see 9 yo girls strutting and swinging their hips and making sexy poses, it makes my stomach turn. I know in a year or two, there will be tons of talk about boys and I can easily envision the girls texting throughout the meeting. A number of the girls are truly obnoxious.

 

Things are already out of control half the time even though the troop leader is excellent. She really is wonderful. It is the girls who have a problem. She actually has to put certain girls in time out over and again. I didn't think time out was usually necessary past the age of 5 or 6.:confused:

 

I am so tempted to pull my daughter from this group because I only see it getting worse and these are not the people I want to be her primary peers. Right now, we only see them once or twice a month, but as she gets older, she may decide these are the girls she wants to hang out with all the tiem. On the other hand, I don't want her to get to high school or college age and not being able to relate to anyone because she has nothing in common with them.

 

Lisa

[KnitWit]

My husband always says it's the kids that were raised very strictly that really go wild when they get to college.

Lisa

 

It doesn't even have to include *going wild*. Last fall, my dd was amused by all the kids on campus devouring the Harry Potter books and having HP movie marathons because they had not been allowed to read them at home. It was quite surprising to her.

[Jean in Newcastle]

It doesn't even have to include *going wild*. Last fall, my dd was amused by all the kids on campus devouring the Harry Potter books and having HP movie marathons because they had not been allowed to read them at home. It was quite surprising to her.

 

That wouldn't bother me. How many people here have said, "They can read HP when they are on their own." I had my own marathons of American t.v. reruns and movies at that age because I was raised outside of the US and wanted to catch up on American culture.

 

I know of kids who went to B & M schools (p.s. and private schools) who went wild in college because they were raised too strictly. It's the controlling atmosphere that people react to and the lack of ability to learn how to make good decisions, not homeschool itself.

[dkholland]

The title of this book has definately been a question on my heart recently. My ds (18) was in private christian school with two other boys- a very small class. They all left the school in 9th gr. and some went on to other private school, one to public school, and one to homeschool. Let me just say, I do not think schooling has anything to do with the rest of my post, but who your child befriends does make a difference. These other two boys, have both struggled with drugs and extreme rebellion. Both are in rehab. I have wondered aloud to God, why these two wonderful boys from two wonderful Christian homes and not my son?? So I recently asked my older boys why have they never tried pot (or even if they have) and they both laughed and said, "we've never had the chance. No one has ever offered it to us." Now, I asked, "so, if you had the chance, you would have?" they both laughed again, and said no, but if the temptation is not ever there, and you don't hang around with guys who are into that, then it makes it a non-option.

 

All that said, to point out that "sheltering" is not a terrible thing. One is now is college, small Christian school, and says he hears there is pot on campus, but he is not interested. I think if we can get young men, especially, through the rocky teen years and help them get their "highs" from exercise, flying a plane, extreme sports, etc., help them pick their friends in a graceful, and wise manner, then we have not cocooned them at all. But,have given that frontal lobe of their brains where most higher level of decision making is done a chance to mature. Of course, children become their own decision makers and God knows the path they will take. We know there is no guarentee with the way we raise our kids. SWB says in one of her talks that good parenting does not always produce good kids, and bad parenting does not always produce bad kids.

 

I have not walked in my friends shoes to know what it is like to have a child walk away from all they are taught. My heart breaks for them and I reminded again that these boys belong to God and it is his job to draw them to himself. I am just thankful He has let me be part of the process and to love them as a mother.

(sorry this got so long and rambling)

[twoforjoy]

=

This comment caught my eye: " Most of life is figuring out HOW TO NAVIGATE! How to win people over – how to influence people to go your way – how to get along with people who are different – how to convince someone to give you more time – how to charm your way past the door. I can guarantee you that the average public schooler is far more adept at all of those things than the smartest homeschooled kid could ever dream of being" and I have to say, I honestly and truly believe the author is correct in this assessment.

 

I have to disagree. Most people out there--like the vast, vast, vast majority--were traditionally schooled. And, they vary wildly in their ability to interact successfully with others. Just being around lots of people doesn't mean that you will know how to successfully and positively interact with them, especially when we're removing more and more time for relaxed social interaction from the schools.

 

Plus, it kind of sounds like what this person is saying is that learning how to manipulate people is an important part of life. And, maybe that is part of being "successful" if we measure success using a certain set of criteria. But part of why I homeschool is that I do not want my children measuring success by that criteria. I have students when I teach my college classes who are indeed very skilled--or think they are--at trying to convince people to do favors for them. What they aren't so good at is actually doing the work they're assigned to do, at taking initiative, and at taking responsibility for their own learning. (In fact, I'd go as far as to say that I think for many students there's an inverse relationship between how skilled they are or try to be at procuring favors, extra time, and special exceptions, and how hard-working, creative, and independent they are.)

 

So, while it's very important to me that my children learn how to interact with people who are different than they are, and that is a priority for us, what I'm not interested in is their learning how to influence people to do what they want (rather than knowing how to make a convincing argument for something and how to present it in a kind, respectful, and persuasive way), to convince people to make exceptions for them, or to use "charm" to get what they want. Those, for me, are exactly the kinds of things I do not want them thinking they can use to get ahead.

Edited June 16, 2011 by twoforjoy

[Sweetpeach]

Plus, it kind of sounds like what this person is saying is that learning how to manipulate people is an important part of life.

 

So, while it's very important to me that my children learn how to interact with people who are different than they are, and that is a priority for us, what I'm not interested in is their learning how to influence people to do what they want (rather than knowing how to make a convincing argument for something and how to present it in a kind, respectful, and persuasive way), to convince people to make exceptions for them, or to use "charm" to get what they want. Those, for me, are exactly the kinds of things I do not want them thinking they can use to get ahead.

 

Hi there, twoforjoy . . . I appreciate your thoughtful response. I didn't read the comment as learning to manipulate or as a course in Lazy Charmers 101! :) I'm convinced that learning how to have influence with people is a key component to life success. In my hs'ing efforts, I've had to develop my "power of influence" so that our kiddies will understand that we have certain bits that need to be completed everyday. Influence with my Mr. means the garage gets cleaned by his own initiative rather than me throwing a tantrum. My Mr spends hours in Management Courses where the primary teaching is about "Impact and Influence" in the workplace.

The blog author barks about influence with a real edge towards homeschoolers and I agree with you, influence isn't an area where all public schoolers thrive. I do believe that ps'ers have more opportunity to practice influencing others than my children have in a home environment.

Warmly, Tricia

[Mary in VA]

It doesn't even have to include *going wild*. Last fall, my dd was amused by all the kids on campus devouring the Harry Potter books and having HP movie marathons because they had not been allowed to read them at home. It was quite surprising to her.

 

:lol: This makes me laugh because that's what's happening at our house. We didn't "do" Harry Potter when my dds were younger. I read the first four but stopped when they got darker. I have no major objection to HP, but my dds weren't particularly interested, so it wasn't an issue. Hard to find the time to do everything we had to do anyway :001_smile: My oldest dd, now 21 and an elementary ed major (at a Christian college) decided to read them this summer so she could be "culturaly literate" with her future students. We borrowed the first movie from a family friend and watched it together. My dd had to pick up book 4 from the library today. She is reading each book before watching the movie. This past Sunday the friend who lent the movie handed me a bag of all 7 dvds as a gift for my dd. She had found them for $7 each and thought of my dd.

 

How this ties in with OP - We sheltered our dds when they were little which I think is a very good thing. They were involved in lots of activities in the community as they and we were comfortable with it. But as they have grown they are moving out into the world and making their own decisions. Now of course some would say a Christian college is still sheltering (and it is not in name only) but I think it is easing her out into the world. It is not an strict, legalistic place, but all about grace and heart issues. And she has now chosen to read HP. She asked me what I think and I told her she is an adult and she can read what she wants. I trust her judgement. Funny thing is last night at a college/career church activity she told an 18 yo friend from high school she was reading them. The friend's reaction was "that's trash!" My dd asked her if she had read any of them and the friend said "NO!" My dd said, "But you read Twilight!" :001_smile: My dd told her friend she would rather evaluate HP for herself then base her decisions on others. I guess after all, that my point is that our goal for our dds is that we equip them with the ability to make sound evaluations and judgements away from us, to know to turn to the Lord for guidance and that they can always ask us. And thankfully, so far, we have seen our oldest make good decisions.

 

Mary

[Joanne]

Let me just say, I do not think schooling has anything to do with the rest of my post, but who your child befriends does make a difference. These other two boys, have both struggled with drugs and extreme rebellion.

 

Statistics would lead to the conclusion that the propensity towards addiction is likely found in the genetics of the family. It's highly likely that these families have a predisposition.

[Joanne]

OP, have you read "Already Gone"?

 

I have it, but based on the author, I will have to be careful on when I read it because it's likely to drive me crazy.

[msjones]

 

Here's where I could use some perspective: is it my imagination or is he VERY condescending in his "concerns" (read: disgust?) with homeschooling/Christian schooling? If I get past that, I think he's got some very good points. Very good. But it gets very murky because of what I am interpreting as this "you have completely mis-served your children if you have kept them holed up in a hideaway from the world". There did not seem to be much grace put out there, which I think is hilarious since his previous book was called "Grace-Based Parenting". :001_huh:

 

 

I have not read the book, but am hesitant to give much attention to anyone who claims to know exactly what would "serve" or "completely mis-serve" all children... especially if it's tied up with a Christian bow.

 

Families, children, communities, churches...they are all so different. What serves one child beautifully may fail another. He doesn't know your child, your community, your family, your neighborhood, your church. YOU do.

[Retired]

its been awhile since reading the book, I read it while on my own Christian journey. I don't remember everything about the book. I just think I'll share mine and my parents journey with rebellion.

 

I was raised in the Nazarene church with lots of don't in my life. I attended PS but never fit in because of my home lifes separation from the culture. I struggled big time from being judge mental of others because that was what I was raised with to joining the fun (drinking, premarital sex, and generally a person of the culture)

 

See my parents raised me in a Christian subculture but didn't allow me to learn my own discernment and convictions. Its was their way or the highway.

 

example I wanted to attend homecoming dance. There perspective its a sin to dance so No. Well at some point I didn't respect their Christian boring life and decided to go all out secular.

 

Now as a parent myself I allow my teens to make choices and yeah I don't always agree with their choices but my almost 18 yo is not out drinking, having sex and acting stupid every night like I was at 18

 

So I say that Christian parents are doing a disservice to keep your young adults in a Christian bubble.

 

This is just my experience.

 

I can honestly tell you out of my 1980's youth group that the only ones that kept the Christan walk during teen years where the kids that parents allowed them to participate in the culture. They saw movies, went to concerts and everything.

 

My parents regret how they raised me. My younger sibling's got freedom and neither "went wild"

 

My father said "you can't play the holy spirit for your kids- you have to be confident that you have taught them the word and let it work in their lives-the devil will work rebellion in their heart instead of the holy spirits love if we don't trust the kids to make the right decisions:001_smile:

 

My poor parents figured it out a little late for me but it has helped me raise my boys.

 

They learned a hard lesson with me. I can also say that the rebellion was hard on me. I wish things would of been different:001_smile:

[Debbie in OR]

I guess after all, that my point is that our goal for our dds is that we equip them with the ability to make sound evaluations and judgements away from us, to know to turn to the Lord for guidance and that they can always ask us. And thankfully, so far, we have seen our oldest make good decisions. Mary

 

See, this is probably where we fall out on things: we do a ton of stuff in the community (sports, volunteering, etc.) and we have friends who are not Christian. But, from what I am reading in this book, that is just not adequate.

 

Here is an excerpt:

"Parents who raise their kids in controlled environments study the Bible, but they can afford to have comfortable Bible studies. These parents pray, but they can afford to pray comfortable prayers. They can spend their time thanking God for the protection and safety their children enjoy in their spiritual attics and biospheres. And I can see why this is attractive. The alternative is clearly nasty. If you choose to raise your children on the front lines, there is no such thing as a comfortable Bible study. You are forced into the Bible out of desperation, and there's no way you get to settle for superficial answers. When it comes to prayer, you seldom get to share any conversations with God that doesn't include a discussion about some imminent threat that is staring down at you or your children. Prayers don't get to be short and sweet, either....

 

In fact, I'd have to say that raising your kidsin the world guarantees that you'll never be comfortable with how much of the Bible you know, and you'll never be satisfied with how much time you've spent in prayer. You'll just become more comfortable with God. You'll be satisfied with Him, too. In the process, your kids will see something this is hard to detect inside the safe confines of a controlled Christian environment: Walking headlong with Jesus into the challenges of the harsh world is the safest place we can ever be....

 

It's much easier to choose a path that doesn't require us to pay close attention to what is happening in our kids' lives. It's also nice because it accommodates our lack of biblical knowledge and limited spiritual experience. It's a plan that actually works...as long as Satan doesn't challenge it. The problem is what to do when something goes haywire and our kids start seeing their spiritual lives for what they really are -- inadequate for the challenge. This, of course, catches parents off guard. A sudden change in kids' behavior this is contradictory to everything they have been taught sends Mom and Dad into a tailspin."

 

There is much more like this but that's a general idea. He states in several different ways that we are choosing the easy path for our kids, because it costs us and them nothing, and leaving the battle for the rest of the Christian world.

 

But like I said earlier, I think these things bug me because that is not what goes on in our home. It feels disingenuous to be making some very valid points but with this over-reaching blanket. He is making some big assumptions about families who choose to homeschool or Christian school.

 

But then I think "Maybe we aren't a controlling home but we need to be out there in the public schools nonetheless. Maybe by it's very nature we are producing untried, weak, wishy-washy kids?"

[Debbie in OR]

OP, have you read "Already Gone"?

 

I have it, but based on the author, I will have to be careful on when I read it because it's likely to drive me crazy.

 

I have read it and actually, I think it was probably that book that prompted me to find Kimmel's book.

 

It's probably going to drive you crazy (if you are not a literal 6-day Creationist) but there is still good stuff in there. :001_smile:

[Debbie in OR]

I have not read the book, but am hesitant to give much attention to anyone who claims to know exactly what would "serve" or "completely mis-serve" all children... especially if it's tied up with a Christian bow.

 

Families, children, communities, churches...they are all so different. What serves one child beautifully may fail another. He doesn't know your child, your community, your family, your neighborhood, your church. YOU do.

 

Yes, see...this is what is bugging me, I am realizing, after reading all the responses (like caffelatte's...I mean, you went to ps but that didn't prevent the rebellion...it had so much to do with the parents). There are so many variables that come into play and it seems (to me, at least) that he is making his conclusions in a very generalized, and pretty harsh, manner.

 

That said, though, I still find so much of value in it. I just wish he had presented it less over-reaching. It makes it so much harder to wade through.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Debbie in OR

[Debbie in OR]

(I am a melancholy and therefore process internally so it normally takes me two or three times to get one complete thought out there.. :tongue_smilie:)

 

So, what raised the panic in me what that it seems to me that even though we don't hs to shelter or cocoon (we are Christian but it had a lot to do with academics and schedule flexibility), and even though we are involved in our world and culture, etc...that it ISN'T ADEQUATE. My interpretation from reading the book is that our kids have to be on the front lines of the ps in order for their faith to be forged and real.

[justamouse]

See, this is probably where we fall out on things: we do a ton of stuff in the community (sports, volunteering, etc.) and we have friends who are not Christian. But, from what I am reading in this book, that is just not adequate.

 

Here is an excerpt:

"Parents who raise their kids in controlled environments study the Bible, but they can afford to have comfortable Bible studies. These parents pray, but they can afford to pray comfortable prayers. They can spend their time thanking God for the protection and safety their children enjoy in their spiritual attics and biospheres. And I can see why this is attractive. The alternative is clearly nasty. If you choose to raise your children on the front lines, there is no such thing as a comfortable Bible study. You are forced into the Bible out of desperation, and there's no way you get to settle for superficial answers. When it comes to prayer, you seldom get to share any conversations with God that doesn't include a discussion about some imminent threat that is staring down at you or your children. Prayers don't get to be short and sweet, either....

 

In fact, I'd have to say that raising your kidsin the world guarantees that you'll never be comfortable with how much of the Bible you know, and you'll never be satisfied with how much time you've spent in prayer. You'll just become more comfortable with God. You'll be satisfied with Him, too. In the process, your kids will see something this is hard to detect inside the safe confines of a controlled Christian environment: Walking headlong with Jesus into the challenges of the harsh world is the safest place we can ever be....

 

It's much easier to choose a path that doesn't require us to pay close attention to what is happening in our kids' lives. It's also nice because it accommodates our lack of biblical knowledge and limited spiritual experience. It's a plan that actually works...as long as Satan doesn't challenge it. The problem is what to do when something goes haywire and our kids start seeing their spiritual lives for what they really are -- inadequate for the challenge. This, of course, catches parents off guard. A sudden change in kids' behavior this is contradictory to everything they have been taught sends Mom and Dad into a tailspin."

 

There is much more like this but that's a general idea. He states in several different ways that we are choosing the easy path for our kids, because it costs us and them nothing, and leaving the battle for the rest of the Christian world.

 

But like I said earlier, I think these things bug me because that is not what goes on in our home. It feels disingenuous to be making some very valid points but with this over-reaching blanket. He is making some big assumptions about families who choose to homeschool or Christian school.

 

But then I think "Maybe we aren't a controlling home but we need to be out there in the public schools nonetheless. Maybe by it's very nature we are producing untried, weak, wishy-washy kids?"

 

 

If that is not you, then he is not talking to you.

 

But I see those people all the time in the homeschooling community. Children DO need some sheltering. They don't need to see the most harsh things life contains. BUT, there is a sheltering extreme where the parents make life so easy for the child, that they never question-and the parents think that is good!

 

I think of it as concentric circles. As children grow and encounter wider and wider circles, if they aren't emotionally prepared they flounder. Maturity is about encountering unknown situations and navigating those situations. Like the false belief that more schooling/paperwork equals rigor, these people believe that holding their children within that first circle is preparing them for life and 'keeping' them. Only they don't know how to navigate because they'd never been given the opportunity to do so in the saftey of their family.

[KnitWit]

I completely agree that children need some sheltering. *Age appropriate* sheltering. Of COURSE I don't want very young children exposed to things that they will handle better with some age and maturity. I *do* believe that some families carry it out until it is no longer age appropriate.

 

The thing about the kids my dd witnessed at school was the breakdown in relationship between the kids and their parents. It was all sneaky and *kept* from the parents. Which should be ridiculous. Yes, reading HP as a college student is no big deal (my dd read them all while home), and that is her point. They felt they had to keep such a SMALL thing from their parents. What happens with the big stuff? She said most of them felt their parents were very strict and judgmental and would never understand them. This is NOT a great start into young adulthood.

 

That said, I have NO DOUBT that most parents who are super strict are that way because they truly believe they are doing what is best for their children and are motivated by love. I said *most* because I have met some that I believe are basically dictatorial control freaks.

[Sweetpeach]

If that is not you, then he is not talking to you.

 

But I see those people all the time in the homeschooling community. Children DO need some sheltering. They don't need to see the most harsh things life contains. BUT, there is a sheltering extreme where the parents make life so easy for the child, that they never question-and the parents think that is good!

 

I think of it as concentric circles. As children grow and encounter wider and wider circles, if they aren't emotionally prepared they flounder. Maturity is about encountering unknown situations and navigating those situations. Like the false belief that more schooling/paperwork equals rigor, these people believe that holding their children within that first circle is preparing them for life and 'keeping' them. Only they don't know how to navigate because they'd never been given the opportunity to do so in the saftey of their family.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I want my kids to have a million opportunities to make disastrous mistakes while still living under our roof. I want them to live dangerous lives while at home, so that they can know what it feels like to be out-of-control, out-of-line, scared, frustrated etc etc . . . I believe having life-skills to deal with big emotions, hard social problems are as important as outlining and advanced math.

 

T

[goldberry]

I read the book, and I didn't feel he was condescending. I took it as "those are good things to consider, in balance with other things".

 

Also, I assumed that since he was likely talking to a conservative Christian community, he was right to address those in the community who might be inclined to go a little too far in the sheltering area.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

OP, have you read "Already Gone"?

 

I have it, but based on the author, I will have to be careful on when I read it because it's likely to drive me crazy.

 

I read it. I thought the criticisms of Sunday school were spot-on. At least, they were validating of my own experiences as a child, parent, and Sunday school teacher over more than 3 decades. I appreciated the balance, as well. He didn't suggest that Sunday school should be abolished entirely but rather reformed.

 

Overall, I was surprised that Ham mostly let the statistics do the talking and refrained from indulging himself in a heavier-handed critique of parents and churches. A refreshing and helpful book from an author who I've always found to be very likely to drive me crazy.

[Joanne]

I read it. I thought the criticisms of Sunday school were spot-on. At least, they were validating of my own experiences as a child, parent, and Sunday school teacher over more than 3 decades. I appreciated the balance, as well. He didn't suggest that Sunday school should be abolished entirely but rather reformed.

 

Overall, I was surprised that Ham mostly let the statistics do the talking and refrained from indulging himself in a heavier-handed critique of parents and churches. A refreshing and helpful book from an author who I've always found to be very likely to drive me crazy.

 

Great feedback. Thank you.

[Sevilla]

I've read the book and really liked it. I took his criticisms as more focused on parents who choose Christian school or homeschool out of fear - fear that public school would steal the faith of their children, fear that the kids their kids would see would corrupt them, fear that their family would fall apart if around those who aren't likeminded in belief, etc...

 

That is a far different thing than saying "We're homeschooling because that is what God has called us to" or other positively-motivated things. I grew up in homeschool and private Christian school. I know families who Christian schooled and homeschooled out of fear of public schools - and it did their children no favors as adults and many of those people have now left the faith entirely. The whole cocooning trap that Kimmel talks about imploded their faith once they were adults and out in the world - and saw that the 'threat of the world' that their parents/school had taught them didn't match up to what the reality was. And that disconnect was a significant part of what propelled them down the path to unbelief.

 

I also think there is something to be said once you are logic age and above to having to flex your faith muscles on a regular basis - to have to wrestle with 'how can I believe this and they dont?' and 'how can they claim to believe this but live another way' and 'how do I reconcile _____ that the world teaches with what I believe the Bible says?' There is a danger in assautling children head-on before they're ready with far too much stress on their new faith muscles, and there is an equal danger in keeping kids 'strapped in a spiritual stroller' years longer than necessary when their muscles are designed to learn to walk and run.

 

I honestly would never put my child in a Christian school unless I felt a clear call from God to do so - it is a great environment for some children and a poor environment for others (and I am speaking strictly on a spiritual basis here). I did feel that I was insulated and cocooned and that it made transitioning to a stronger adult faith more challenging, and I found Kimmel's critiques right on in that assessment.

 

It comes down to parental motivation - are you fear-based in your family's choices? or are you making proactive decisions based on what you believe is good/healthy/best? Children will respond very.very differently depending on how fear-based you respond to them as they grow.

[Debbie in OR]

Thank you all for posting your thoughts on this. It has been very helpful as dh and I process this. It seems clear to me that I was over-reacting to this and am thankful for the balance your comments have brought.

 

I see so much of value in what he has written and think I can approach it with more openness now, rather than with reservation.

 

Thank you so much. :001_smile: