s/o: What can the homeschool community do as a whole...

[Hunter's Moon]

I'm afraid I couldn't come up with a better title as I don't know how to condense the main idea of this thread into a title.

 

Reading through this thread on homeschool curricula being dumbed down, one quote really struck me, and I hope they don't mind me quoting them.

 

CS Lewis had scholarly tutors, to be sure, but Thomas Edison just had a messy lab. But homeschoolers seem to be returning to the textbook.

 

Fear would be one reason for this. Fear that colleges won't understand the approach. Fear that the school districts won't accept the portfolio as "complete". Fear that those from the outside looking in won't understand and will judge or ridicule or belittle.

 

What, if anything, can the homeschool community do so the way they teach their children can be more accepted by those looking in? I'm not suggesting anyone conform, or change their style in anyway. But, I wonder, would the acceptance of more people lessen the fear that so many struggle with when they choose the textbook over a living book or an experience or some other "non-traditional" way? (ETA: I'm not saying choosing a textbook is bad. I use textbooks. Just an example I thought up quickly.)

 

Can more homeschool conventions offer more sessions on making transcripts and turning unusual experiences into something a college can understand? I guess this part kind of goes back to the "what homeschool conventions should actually offer" threads on the General Board, but maybe that is just one thing that could be done.

 

Is it even the job of homeschoolers to try and change the perspective of outside bodies, whether they be institutional like colleges and research facilities or the public in general?

 

I don't pretend to be an expert. I enjoy researching the different approaches and curricula. But, I've always wondered how the homeschooling world would change if it was just another school option, equal to that of a public and private school. I know it is an equal option, but with all the hoops that homeschoolers have to jump through for college admissions and sports and internships, etc., is there anyway the homeschool community could make their presence be known and understood on the same level as a public or private schools?

 

Bit of a loaded question to end the night with :tongue_smilie: :bigear:

[Ester Maria]

What, if anything, can the homeschool community do so the way they teach their children can be more accepted by those looking in?

The subject of suspicion is usually not "the way they teach their children", in and of itself - rather, it is the lack of formal qualifications and expert oversight, i.e. a sort of "guarantee" (for lack of a better expression) for what the results of what you did. Homeschooling is, in the US, not regulated at all or very poorly regulated (compared to the situation in most of Europe) - it is an excellent opportunity in terms of freedom to do your own thing, but if you think about it from the other angle, it is actually a system that is very easy to abuse in all sorts of ways tangential to what would elsewhere be consiered intellectual dishonesty (starting from the fact that the entire programs are made and then grades are issued by people who may not be subject experts or sometimes not even possess any sort of higher education qualifications). Like it or not, whenever you have a system which is that free and that dangerous at the same time, where you may not have any real guarantee for anything (not that the school system is perfect, but it is significantly better in some aspects), people are going to be suspicious of it. And, if you ask me - rightly so.

 

I am actually one of those people that believe homeschooling should be more scrutinized from the outside, maybe even more regulated - a "heresy" in the eyes of many homeschoolers, I know. I think some sort of system with annual subject test evaluations at umbrella institutions would be a fine compromise, many European countries do it exactly that way, so educational neglect or failure to meet age-appropriate and ability-appropriate standards is registered and, if repeated, the student ends up in the system (if they are still within the age of compulsory schooling). The diploma issues are a lot more flexible that way too, since it opens a possibility of an unqualified mother not guaranteeing all areas and having that pressure removed. And then, there are state-level exit exams which go hand in hand with individual school diploma so at the end of the day, nobody with concrete demonstrated knowledge ends up "maimed" in some way only because they were homeschooled.

 

Only highly unregulated systems, such as the American one, allow for that much suspicion because there are no common standards and no guarantees for the out-of-box program and, even with "boxed" program, no guarantees on the subject standards.

 

Of course, regulating the system might fundamentally not work for the US, because it would mean having to give up on a certain degree of freedom, and from the little I managed to understand what your political worldview is based on as a country, you would actually prefer to solve any such problem which can be solved in two ways in the way of greater freedoms, rather than lesser freedoms (which, effectively, regulations and required subject testing would mean), even at the cost that you are currently paying (the lack of transparency or common standards etc.). So, while a good solution for most of Europe where some amount of standardization in terms of standards, however bad, still exists on many levels, it might be one of those fundamentally un-American things that I sometimes have a problem wrapping my mind about, but you guys seem to intuitively understand. (:tongue_smilie:)

 

I still find it to be the most reasonable, neat solution, even if it is the path of lesser freedoms and lesser flexibility overall: to simply adhere to a set of standards, rely on outside evaluation and "verification" of what you did. That is the only way to have a guarantee, or via things such as SAT subject tests, APs, and other things which basically serve as "tests" for high school level content. Personally, if I did not have children enrolled in a different system, we would be going that route, having most every single thing we did formally acknowledged in some way by outside evaluation. As sad as it may sound - I generally dislike standardized testing and its many flaws, but for the purposes of "formalities", I prefer standardization to mess, even if "in and of itself" I ditch those standardized exams as any real measures of anything. They can only have a sort of relative value, but that is exactly what we are looking fo here: demonstrating that we are up to the standards of "others".

 

If you can live with that suspicion and find alternative ways to prove your worth - great. And maybe many successful individual cases like that do start a sort of shift of perspective and allow for lesser inherent distrust of homeschoolers that many people have. However, if you cannot live with it, I really suggest doing the less romantic route of seeking formal and recongized confirmations for what you did, or for the greatest extent of what you did possible.

Is it even the job of homeschoolers to try and change the perspective of outside bodies, whether they be institutional like colleges and research facilities or the public in general?

No, I really do not think so. Not in terms of homeschooling as such - only when it comes to individuals - as homeschooling is not "unified" in any way and it basically comes down to everyone doing their own thing. And because of that, and absence of some sort of internal organization and administratioin and formally qualified people that any school has, it is never going to be on par with schools in the eye of an outsider, even if it may produce tangibly better results.

 

I think fighting that battle to make it seem like an equal option is a bad choice; a better one would be playing their game and proving that you are on par with others (as much as I laugh while writing, in essence, that standardized tests "prove" much - individual umbrella school assessments are much better, but still not a guarantee in terms of unified standards), in spite of an atypical schooling situation. And the way to get there are outside evaluations. I frankly cannot see any other light at the end of the tunnel. I have been, in fact I still am, on both sides - as somebody who homeschools against all odds (and waaaay beyond the comfort zone of what is generally acceptable in my circles) AND as somebody who has, repeatedly, questioned the academic credibility of homeschoolers, others as well as myself. My stance has been that there simply is no inherent academic credibility in an unregulated system. I can go anecdotal and think of all people, here too, whose judgment I would absolutely trust, but I cannot think of any other solution than outside evaluation for me to make a random, unknown homeschool transcript inherently academically credible, at least to the same (and rather small LOL) extent to which I hold any institutional diploma to be.

[G5052]

Is that we are so very diverse, and the laws support that.

 

The public schools in my state are highly prescriptive because there are state exams and standards that are the whole focus of their efforts now. Teachers tell me that the creativity is being sucked out of them because everything is set like a factory now. Some school systems do indeed fit in more than that, but many are just barely holding their own with the standards and not much more.

 

But the state accepts virtually anything a homeschool presents as long as it falls within certain parameters. And I'm glad. I don't want to be a factory foreman. And the state schools welcome homeschoolers and are glad to look at transcripts that are just a little different, and scan the booklists and descriptions and pair that with SAT/ACT scores. So I don't care if the neighbors think we're odd and if my coworkers drill me with questions about what we're doing. It isn't bad to be a little different if your results are good;).

[Shelly in VA]

I think fighting that battle to make it seem like an equal option is a bad choice; a better one would be playing their game and proving that you are on par with others (as much as I laugh while writing, in essence, that standardized tests "prove" much - individual umbrella school assessments are much better, but still not a guarantee in terms of unified standards), in spite of an atypical schooling situation. And the way to get there are outside evaluations.

 

I think this is a very reasonable position. Quite honestly, if, as a homeschooler, you are educating your children, then the testing should not be threatening. A hassle, yes; a silly beaurocratic hoop to jump through, yes; a standard that has little value outside of its narrowly defined parameters, yes. But, ultimately, it is a simple enough step to take, and it is one that not only provides some 'proof' that students are moving forward in their education (which, really, is the entire purpose to begin with), but also gives the parent a benchmark for needed improvements and/or weaknesses to address.

 

I have homeschooled in three U.S. states now. In SC, we were required to do nothing, really, other than to file a notice of intent and keep portfolios in case anyone ever wanted to see them (no one ever did). In MD, we had a portfolio review twice/year with a representative from the school district; honestly, I found them very helpful. The evaluator was supportive and professional, he gave good constructive input on my children's work and strengths/weaknesses, and he gave me information on activities in the area, resources to use, and tips on tackling certain teaching problems I was encountering. In VA, we submit annual test scores (the tests have to be nationally normed), and if nothing else, they serve to give my children test-taking experience, which they will need for college admissions.

 

My point, with all this rambling ;), is to say that in my experience, the regulation that we have adhered to has been a help, not a hindrance, and it is not anything to try to avoid. It does provide me with some peace of mind regarding my children's academics, especially in a homeschool setting where I don't have an entire group of children to compare progress to.

 

I'd write more, but it's quite late, and I'm not sure that my post makes sense as it is!:D

 

Shelly

[8filltheheart]

I only have a sec, so I probably won't be able to answer this question w/any sort of justice of time that it deserves.

 

Warning.....only read if you don't care about being offended!!

 

:rant:

 

When I first started homeschooling (1994), parents really weren't worried about what other people thought---we knew!! They thought we were nuts!! We were focused on teaching our children the skills that we wanted them to know. Like Faith posted in the other thread, we didn't search for the "perfect" curriculum. We taught. We didn't spend days out of our home looking for "socialization" opportunities. We thought "socialization" was the argument for those that opposed homeschooling.:confused:

 

We didn't worry about whether others thought we were qualified to teach subjects x,y,z. We had been told 100x we weren't and we found out that we could anyway. We taught ourselves in order to teach our kids. We didn't look for scripts or daily plans telling us exactly what to do. **WE** were the teachers. We were the ones defining our own homeschools. We didn't ask or seek approval from co-op teachers, from curriculum providers, and colleges accepted these kids anyway. (maybe not all of them, but the ones that did found out that these students were different/unique/an asset to their communities.)

 

Today's homeschool students are cookie-cutter students that reflect the same education as everyone else sitting in their co-op. They are being taught be "teachers" that are not their parents starting in K for goodness sakes.

 

My (obviously very obnoxious and ranting) answer is that when homeschooling returns home and moms return to actual teaching. :tongue_smilie:

:rant:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think that much of the opposition to homeschooling comes from professional educators who feel (justified or not) that the mere existance of homeschooling as an option nulifies their education and efforts in their own classroom. This is the same class that fights against charter schools, isn't so sure of private schools and wants parents "involved" right up until they start asking questions (bake sales are fine, coming to parent conferences are desired, but don't start asking questions about teacher performance).

 

Not all (or probably even a majority of) teachers are like this. But there is a solid cadre of prefessional educators (especially found in education colleges, teacher unions and lobbies) that will never be content with certifying the results of homeschooling, simply because it is something out of their control.

 

On the other side, you have homeschoolers who will actually say that schools are so bad, so vile, that it doesn't matter if all their kid does is read and watch videos all day. They still consider that superior to being in school. Any school.

 

Now I don't think that most teachers are in the first group (though more than I like are) and I don't think that most homeschoolers are in the second group (though more than I like are).

 

Putting on my volunteer college admissions rep hat for a moment, what I tell all potential candidates, but most certainly homeschoolers, is that selective colleges aren't looking for candidates who meet minimums. They are looking for candidates who have seized the moment and done something exceptional. A competitive college has to have something from a homeschooled applicant to measure, some way to compare them to other applicants.

 

Subject tests are certainly a way to do this. SAT/ACT scores contribute. Letters of recommendation from outside the family. Work experience. Community college experience. Personal statements that shine. Portfolios. And on and on. But it probably isn't going to be enough to just say, "My kid's a great student" and leave it at that.

 

I've been around the edges of both the German Abitur and the Japanese university exams. I don't think that will be a method that is ever widely employed in the US. We value our diamond in the rough, Horatio Alger, rugged individualist, iconoclast, kid with a lot of potential but no opportunities too much. And I think that it runs headlong into the mantra that "all students should be prepared for college". Plus I don't think that our modern American society has the stomach for formulating a test that might have disparate results across ethnic groups. (Nor do I really trust the education establishment to write broad testing instruments that favor deep and wide learning over pet constituencies.)

 

I can't say that it's my duty to transform the image that some people hold of homeschooling (see groups 1 and 2 above). The effort I expend probably won't reap much benefit and would certainly take time away from educating my own kids. Homeschooling has become much more mainstream over the last decade. There is so much more available (helped in no small part by the internet). People are much more accepting of it as a valid educational choice. My duty is to do well within that freedom, not to fix everyone else's impressions.

 

(I will have long conversations about homeschooling to people who are interested. I'll even have pretty heated debate. Both with pushy educators and with homeschoolers who think anything goes. But I don't count on convincing either. I think the US education system is largely broken. We've bowed out of it. And it is a gamble that when we try to step back in - at the college level - that we will struggle for endorsement.)

[ma23peas]

What, if anything, can the homeschool community do so the way they teach their children can be more accepted by those looking in?

...........

 

Is it even the job of homeschoolers to try and change the perspective of outside bodies, whether they be institutional like colleges and research facilities or the public in general?

 

 

Bit of a loaded question to end the night with :tongue_smilie: :bigear:

 

Just a quick response.

 

First, education is the responsibility of the parent. We have the freedom to select and choose what we feel will give our child the learning tools they need to succeed in this world. For some, it may be more of a faith centered initiative, for others it may be a highly rigorous academic course, and others it may be 'unschooling'...it is their choice. Will some fall through the cracks and not fit the definition of successful homeschooling? Absolutely, but does that not also happen in traditional school settings? In our county, 1 in 3 drop out of high school...you can regulate all you want but it won't change the fact that we can't get everyone into the top of the bell curve.

 

I have never taught my children in a way that is 'acceptable' to those around me. Never used a co-op or outside teacher until my oldest hit 8th grade and I wanted him to have a strong lab experience...local teacher here has every lab material you could imagine, they dissected everything it seemed...and don't even get me started on chemistry! Who has 20 gas burners at their disposal? I consider myself resourceful, I use what gets me the most bang for my effort. 80% of the time I am the sole teacher, but subjects like writing/science I think benefit from having peer review and discussions...so I seek those out.

 

No, not the responsibility of the homeschooler to change the perception of homeschooling...it's a fluid movement, the perceptions naturally change the more the population of homeschoolers change, it's no longer a stereotype....many choose to homeschool for various reasons. Doctors, lawyers, construction workers, plumbers, those without 'degrees' teach and do a great job..some do a not so great job...but they most likely will not be seeking higher education, and that is fine. My responsibility is to raise thoughtful children who know how to communicate their ideas to all levels of society...serve others and seek God's path for them. I provide as many opportunities to stretch and challenge them so that they do not make decisions out of fear or doubt, but out of certainty and confidence. This may influence those school boards, but it was never my intent to impress, but to raise children with morals, integrity, and a hard work ethic.

[Kim in SouthGa]

Our experience with SAT subject testing was a nightmare. My son took an outside class taught by a retired high school science teacher using Apologia Biology. He also took a health class using the Abeka 9th grade text and the teacher, a nurse, added lots of anatomy with the Grays Anatomy coloring pages, dissection, etc. He then worked through the Princeton Review Book (lots of material he had never seen before), & took multiple practice tests. Each practice test was different-he would study what he missed, and then that material wouldn't even be on the next practice test! A whole new set of stuff to study. Then when he took the test, there was still a whole section on the phosphorus cycle, which had not been covered in his text or the review book. So, how does a child do well? He made 100% on almost everything he did in the both classes. This experience has given me a whole new outlook on testing. We had previously planned on doing at least 4 SAT subject tests for high school, but now I'm not sure. It seems so random and just the luck of the draw-you do well if you get the right test.

[8filltheheart]

Our experience with SAT subject testing was a nightmare. My son took an outside class taught by a retired high school science teacher using Apologia Biology. He also took a health class using the Abeka 9th grade text and the teacher, a nurse, added lots of anatomy with the Grays Anatomy coloring pages, dissection, etc. He then worked through the Princeton Review Book (lots of material he had never seen before), & took multiple practice tests. Each practice test was different-he would study what he missed, and then that material wouldn't even be on the next practice test! A whole new set of stuff to study. Then when he took the test, there was still a whole section on the phosphorus cycle, which had not been covered in his text or the review book. So, how does a child do well? He made 100% on almost everything he did in the both classes. This experience has given me a whole new outlook on testing. We had previously planned on doing at least 4 SAT subject tests for high school, but now I'm not sure. It seems so random and just the luck of the draw-you do well if you get the right test.

 

Most students take the SAT2s after the equivalent of an advanced course or after the AP course.

[Alyce]

"My (obviously very obnoxious and ranting) answer is that when homeschooling returns home and moms return to actual teaching."

 

 

I too started homeschooling when there wasn't much choice and we knew what people thought and proceeded anyway. Yes, I worried from time to time but I never doubted that I was doing the right thing. I knew that people would be able to tell that my kids were getting just as good an education if not better than ps just by being around them.

 

We used unit studies before they were called unit studies. Co-ops weren't heard of. The whole purpose of pulling my children from PS was for ME to teach them. I wanted them to learn what I felt was most important. When I started seeing homeschool co-ops and on-line courses showing up I thought it would become a problem in the future (and I still do and am beginning to see). The purpose was that I thought I could do it better and believed I could. Did I know everything, No but we learned together. With Co-ops and on-line courses I would be turning my kids over to other people to teach their way. I personally don't see how that a co-op or an online course is much different than PS especially with what I keep hearing about the behaviors moms are seeing in co-ops and the way some on-line courses require you to use their material and meet their time tables. We really are no longer homeschooling, not the way it was envisioned when the movement first started. We are using boxed curriculums, many parent are setting up school rooms. We are turning into "school at home" homeschoolers.

 

I've read the posts of new homeschoolers or those homeschooling for a couple of years or two and they aren't homeschooling, they are schooling at home but calling themselves homeschoolers. Now most people who are asked why they homeschool state it's because they don't want their children in the environment that PS have. This is only muddying the waters and in many ways help the education system. Even the education system have been setting up "homeschools' because they have seen the success of past homeschoolers and how fast the movement is growing. They know that they must do something to stop the flow so they chose this option. They now provide computers and books and allow students the option of staying at home and "homeschooling" so that those people who are concerned about "behavior in the public school" will not pull their children out of school and thus causing the PS to lose valuable federal money. When homeschooling started it was started because we felt that schools weren't teaching to high enough standards or were leaving out other opinions that we wanted our children to know. It's not about learning anymore, it's about avoiding behaviors, so parents don't put a lot of effort into it.

 

I've also seen a lot of people coming on forums stating they are homeschooling their kids and when you look at the age of the children they are 3 or 4 years old. That's not homeschooling. What those parents are doing was thought of when I first started as taking valuable experiences away from the child which is what we were trying to avoid. We wanted them to explore, do thing "out of the box" as some say. A child that age would be taught but not from a curriculum which many of these moms come on asking about. Homeschoolers felt that children at that age needed to learn how to have fun with learning. We didn't want them to sit in front of a textbook or workbook. We wanted them to enjoy life and learning. We'd use paint, play do, beads, macaroni, walks outside. My kids rarely sat in front of a TV watching "educational" videos. Even today they frequently comment about the toys that are coming out and how they are taking the imagination away from kids. My kids never attended a co-op or an took an on-line course. I taught them myself. I'm horrible math person but we learned together, yes I did choose some materials that had DVD's that went with them or planners but I used them as "tools for me to teach from". I didn't give them to my kids and say here this is your work for today. Even into high school my kids sat at my side learning. No not as much as they had when they were young. They had courses where they were very independent and they got to have input in the curriculum we chose but at the end of the day, They still had to account to me and I checked behind them. We discussed what they were learning and on the hard subjects we worked together to get through them. Both my kids were easily accepted into college. There transcripts never questioned. They don't have 4.0 averages but they do have above averages GPA's. They take school seriously and their teachers see it and comment on it.

 

My husband's family is full of teachers and thought we were making a bad choice when we first announced what we were doing but we didn't care it was our choice. We were the only homeschoolers in my church and their were many comments behind our back. The funny thing was that as my kids got older and as we homeschooled more and more we began to get compliments at how well our kids were doing, people began to see that homeschooling wasn't what they thought it was. My kids were learning just as much as PSers and in many cases more and my kids were actually better socialized than PS kids. I live in a fairly lightly regulated state. We are required to give a nationally standardized test (which in my opinion and my kids opinions are a joke) and have them available to be inspected, which was never done. My church started asking questions as did the kids at church. They were shocked to hear that my kids were taking tests, that my kids were taking science, math, history the basics and in high school Alg, physics etc then when they found out how little we were regulated it astonished them. They couldn't believe that with that little regulation my kids were so much better than the other kids at church. Even the other kids had the impression that all my kids did was sit around reading and watching TV all day. My husbands family sees homeschooling in a whole different light and as teachers see that, when done seriously, is just as good as PS. No they'll never say it's better, they are teachers after all but they realize it's not going to hurt my or other children, that my children aren't poorly socialized. We've actually taught them something and even they have comment at how great my children turned out. These are great things to hear and having my kids doing so good in school is just icing on the cake but I didn't homeschool to get applauds, I homeschooled because I thought I could do a better job then the PS and Private schools were doing. Yes both of my children attended both these forms of institutions before, thankfully early in their education, we pulled them out.

 

To bring this tirade back to my point. Regulations aren't going to do anything. We have to go back to our roots. If we call ourselves homeschoolers than we must be homeschoolers and take responsibility for our child's education, not leave it to others. If that's what you are doing why not just leave them in PS. If you have taken your kids out and are taking responsibility for their education, why do your children need to be "held accountable to someone other than me" to get them to do better. If that's what you think they need put them back in PS. They'll have someone else to be accountable to. If you are serious about homeschooling and have chosen to do it and put effort into it, people will see the difference as they are around your children. Colleges know the difference because they've seen past homeschoolers excel. Now because we have become lax our test scores are dropping and we are not much better than our PS counterparts. Homeschoolers are no longer excelling above the other students at colleges. Yes we're still better but if we continue down the current path we won't be.

 

I know I have stepped on toes and I'm sorry, these are my opinions as I've watched homeschooling change over the years that I've homeschooled and as we are beginning to see, the facts are beginning to support what I've said.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Alyce

[elegantlion]

We've been homeschooling for seven years. Homeschooling high school has never really intimidated me, however...in the last few years I've noticed a nagging feeling that I might be lacking if we don't do a co-op or CC classes. The thread you linked has made me feel better about my plan to homeschool at HOME.

 

I do vary between wanting to do school our way and feeling like I need to jump through hoops. I don't think more state oversight is the answer. Then again one reason I homeschool it to keep bureaucratic red tape out of my classroom. Those that want to accept the responsibility to educate their children in a rigorous manner (realizing that term will mean different things to each person) have so many options available.

 

I finding re-reading something on classical education every couple of months helps me keep my focus. I find immersing myself in self-education helps. It helps me to be accountable to myself and my son. Beyond that I really don't care what others think.

[Shelly in VA]

Stephanie -

 

Thank you for starting this GREAT discussion thread!! :thumbup1:

 

Shelly

[msjones]

I doubt the "homeschool community" as a "whole" could do much of anything about any topic, let alone something as complex as perception of educational standards.

 

We aren't really a "community" or a "whole." We are (mostly) moms in our homes with our individual children.

 

That's why I like it; I'm not working with a massive group trying to find consensus. I'm just working with my own boys, and I can make decisions very quickly without regard for the opinions of some public institution.

 

I appreciate the OP's question. Many of us want our kids' education to be valuable in the eyes of the establishment -- so they can hop in to the establishment when the time comes.

 

But I think we're on our own as to how that will happen. Thank goodness.

[FaithManor]

What we found when dd applied to and was accepted at thirteen colleges and universities, ten of which were fairly selective, was that the transcript was not half as big of a deal as her unique achievements. Yes, they wanted to see that we had pursued x courses, college prep, and a list of currciulums. No, we did not get a lot of questions as to how we pursued the subject material though we did provide a textbook and reading list. Yes, we did prepare a portfolio. No, not one single admin looked at it (we asked). No one questioned the GPA awarded because her ACT score provided back-up that, yes indeed, she had studied the material and earned her 3.87.

 

Now, the 30 on her ACT was not easy for her to get and she would have liked a higher score. But, dd has major testing nerves (as in vomitting on the way there and hands shaking the entire time) which she was never completely able to conquer despite all of the test prep and our attempts to really help her de-stress, focus, etc. However, given the number of 3.9's and 4.0's graduating from both public and private schools in Michigan who "cannot find a coherent sentence with two hands and a flashlight" (my favorite line from the movie "An American President") she didn't need a higher score to confirm my grades.

 

Really, it was the other "stuff" in addition to her transcript. She was featured in an international humanitarian organization's magazine for work she had done in Mexico. She won the "Right Stuff Award" at space camp. She had stellar recommendations from directors of community groups that she had volunteered with and a leadership award from another volunteer group. We made certain that she had outside verification of what kind of person she was and yet most of that vertification was not necessarily related to academics.

 

American P.S.'s are unfortunately churning out cookie cutter students. They have all taken the same classes, same sports, same music, same, same, same, same...the 4.0 valedictorian with a 33 ACT score of last year's local high school was not offered more than a 50% scholarship at any institution - I talked with her mother and she was furious. But, dd's friend, a 3.88 GPA with a 30 ACT was offered more than one full-scholarship including books, fees, and room/board. Why? Because she was unique and she had achievements that weren't "the norm".

 

We did not find the image of homeschooling to be particularly negative nor the hoops cumbersome. This might not have been true if the educational system in America were better at turning out individuals with a wider range of pursuits, interests, and academic skills. So, I can't say that our experience of stepping out of the system and educating "outside the box" was all that risky. Maybe others have encountered more requirements, more discrimination. I'd love to hear the stories in order to gain more insight.

 

I do get what Ester Maria is saying and in a much better educational model than currently in place in America, I could see the value of greater outside verification of academic achievement, albeit I don't think bubble testing, and certainly not in the younger grades, is the answer to that. But, when standards for student graduation and teacher skill have fallen soooooooooooo low across the board in the governmental system, I can't embrace any oversight that takes away any range of freedom or creativity from homeschoolers to do better with their own children. Additionally, except for all but possibly the ivies, the motivated homeschooler may not actually have a difficult time getting into a great school even though he/she has a mommy generated transcript and mommy determined grades.

 

I don't like to pick on teachers. Some of my closest friends through the years have been teachers who were completely devoted to their students. But, unfortunately, standards for teacher proficiency in their subject material has fallen dramatically in America. Some states are worse than others and here in Michigan the "Test of Basic Skills" which new teacher ed. grads must take is ridiculously easy and the minimum passing grade is low. I have been further distressed to discover that statistics showed a high percentage of math/science education grads had to take the test more than once in order to pass with the minimum. In some states, the minimum score is only 60%. So much for subject matter expertise!!!!

 

More research showed that teacher education majors were not held to the same standards for other majors in the same field...ie. the Math education major did not have to take a class math class beyond calc 1 and though math majors had to achieve a B for this to count towards their major, education majors only needed to achieve a D for it to count. Science teachers could graduate with intro to geology, physical science (not physics), intro to chemistry, biology (freshman level), intro to botany, etc. Across the board, I was amazed to find that most teacher education departments will allow a math or science education major to graduate with exclusively freshman level/100 numbered courses, low grades, and no advanced courses. This of course explained why dd ended up teaching high school chemistry by proxy at a local PS. Her best friend, a competitive student, was in an "honors" chemistry class with a teacher who had never taken a single chemistry class in high school or college despite having "majored" in science. This teacher also had very, very limited algebra skills. This is not a good attribute in a teacher of math based sciences. Since dd's friend and her classmate could not make heads nor tails of their textbook, dd began tutoring her dear friend who then went back to class each day and "taught" her classmates. They only covered 1/2 of the book but were awarded full credit. Sigh....no wonder the colleges we encountered really didn't put that much stock in transcripts no matter who generated them.

 

It's unfortunate, but in America our educational system no longer values a scientist teaching science or a mathematician teaching math, or a published poet teaching creative writing, or the businessman teaching, gasp....principles of business accounting. The holy grail, if you will, of educational expertise has become graduating from a department in which far more time is spent on educational methodologies and theories, then on the fundamental basics of mastering the material you intend to teach. Therefore, the learning methodologies classes are of no substantiative value because it's difficult to teach that which you do not know and especially with 30 or more students, many of whom will be unruly and disruptive, per classroom. In many cases, a really well designed curriculum with DVD instruction by an "expert" would be a far better choice. This is one of my main reasons that homeschooling freedoms should not be reigned in despite the fact that there are definitely dangers present in unlimited restraint.

 

I could go on and on about the problems of classroom discipline, unmotivated students and parents, etc. The troubles in the American education model are gargantuan. As a result, our experience has been that while colleges have a list of minimums for admittance, even at selective schools, for the motivated homeschooling parent and child, those minimums aren't all that hard to achieve and very limited verification of those efforts was required, thus we were able to blend dd's textbook knowledge with a fair amount of project, hands-on based learning. We valued "Edison's Lab" and any non-traditional approach to her education did not detract during the college admission's process.

 

However, meeting the minimums and verifying that externally was not what even got the attention of college admins. Students who do this are a dime a dozen no matter what p.s., charter, private, or homeschool they attended. Students across the board, except for the non-selective state schools, needed to show a layer of interests and achievements outside the system. This was especially true for those needing a lot of merit money. I also think that many students with good GPA's and test scores who do not get into their colleges of choice, do not actually know why they didn't make it. Many are not aware of just how uniform and uninspiring their education and pursuits look on paper. Sad to say, but college admissions, again except for the non-selective state schools has become just that competitive. For most decently educated homeschoolers with something interesting, unusual, or stand-out in their extra-curriculars, I think they have an excellent chance of doing well if they can score a college interview and represent themselves gracefully with enthusiasm.

 

Wow, that was a long rant! Given that I forgot to take my allergy meds this morning and now my brain is fuzzy, head aching, and my nose and eyes are itching something fierce, it's entirely possibe that this rambling post does not even address the issue at hand. I am very sorry if this is not helpful. Good grief...I should have taken my allegra first thing!

 

Ester Maria, I learn from you every single time you post. Thank you so much for your insights!

 

My apologies,

Faith

[Kim in SouthGa]

Faith,

Don't apologize! Wonderful post-it was great to see how well your dd has done. I have been convinced of this very thing myself, but it is hard to stay motivated when I have so many people telling me that my son will never get into a decent college without all these AP classes and test scores, etc.

 

I asked my nephew, who graduated from the elite, college prep, best school in town a few years ago-and has since graduated from college-about his education. Did he finish all his textbooks? no, not a single one. The teacher skipped around and often taught outside the book. Papers? wrote one research paper in hs, one in college. several small, few hundred word papers. He also told me that he has never read a book from start to finish (this was when he graduated from hs, don't know about college). I nearly fell over flat on my face! How could that be? This is a hs that charges big money and is supposed to be a great school. Other private schools in town have history majors teaching math and science majors teaching English? Huh? In what world does this make sense?

[Jane in NC]

Like Faith posted in the other thread, we didn't search for the "perfect" curriculum. We taught.

 

 

Just a quick note for the time being: For years I have wondered if I was obsolete on this board because I was unable to address the routine questions in my field expertise, mathematics. I can handle subject material. But most of the math questions concern curricular comparisons or jumping ship from Curriculum A to Curriculum B. Maybe there was something better out there than what I used (Dolciani) but I had no interest in finding it. Dolciani was good enough for me.

 

Granted, one cannot always "Make it work", but often the difficulties that parents encounter in Curriculum A are not solved by Curriculum B.

[Nan in Mass]

Sometimes it isn't even math help that is needed to straighten out the math. I was baffled by the Blitzer Precalc book until I posted here and somebody explained that it was meant to be taught on a Mon-Wed-Fri schedule rather than a five day a week schedule. And by careless errors until someone suggested writing the negative or positive signs in a different colour. Simple teacherly advice to another teacher. You don't see much of that any more. I, too, have stopped posting very much because posts about how to make TWTM work are few and far between now-a-days. You are much more likely to see a post asking whether lit program a is better than lit program b.

 

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Well, but...

When a teacher doesn't finish the textbook, it might be because the teacher was just using the textbook and didn't get very far (poor teaching) or it might be because the teacher used other materials to teach some parts or combined some parts or knew that some parts were going to be covered in another subject or at another time or were extraneous (good teaching). The best teachers I had in school didn't finish the textbook. And the times I've taught the best at home were the times when I wasn't plugging us through a textbook. There is also the problem of US textbooks. They are meant to be used with a teacher who will pick and choose. They are not really designed to be completed in one year. The textbook companies put in everything that any school anywhere in the country might possibly want to teach during that subject. Using a homeschooling or a textbook from a country with a national curriculum requires finishing the textbook, but even then, a good teacher might want to swop other things for some parts. I'm not sure that whether a public school finished a textbook is really a good measure of how well a subject was covered.

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

There are homeschooling books out there that do a good job of explaining how to translate a homeschooler's unconventional learning experiences into the traditional transcript needed by colleges. I think one thing we can do as a homeschooling community is to read those books GRIN. They go a long way towards easing the fear. I think another thing we can do is make sure that our students have traditional academic skills firmly in place if they are going to transfer into the traditional system. As homeschoolers, we may recognize and value non-academic ways of learning, and we may be in the luxurious position of having a small enough "class" that we can use them, but we need to recognize that if we are switching systems, our students will need some coaching in the new system. Some of this is just a matter of correlating terminology, but not all of it. I also don't think it is unfair of colleges to ask for outside validation of our mummy transcripts, standardized tests or outside classes. They ask this of traditional students, too.

-Nan

[FaithManor]

There are homeschooling books out there that do a good job of explaining how to translate a homeschooler's unconventional learning experiences into the traditional transcript needed by colleges. I think one thing we can do as a homeschooling community is to read those books GRIN. They go a long way towards easing the fear. I think another thing we can do is make sure that our students have traditional academic skills firmly in place if they are going to transfer into the traditional system. As homeschoolers, we may recognize and value non-academic ways of learning, and we may be in the luxurious position of having a small enough "class" that we can use them, but we need to recognize that if we are switching systems, our students will need some coaching in the new system. Some of this is just a matter of correlating terminology, but not all of it. I also don't think it is unfair of colleges to ask for outside validation of our mummy transcripts, standardized tests or outside classes. They ask this of traditional students, too.

-Nan

 

Excellent post! Good suggestions. I would like to say that while I also do not see it as unfair to provide outside verification, I do think it ironic tht given the state of public education across the nation, that public schools do not have to provide outside verification of grades, what consituted an A, what was required, and how it was evaluated. Case in point, the local geometry teacher gives half credit for not falling asleep in class. He also gives full credit to all homework turned in regardless of the quality of that homework. So, turning in all of the assigned homework and not falling asleep can actually earn a student a C in class even if he/she fails all of the quizzes and exams. This way the teacher has a high "pass" rate which makes him the darling of the principal and superintendent, never mind that his students wouldn't know a set of complimentary angles if they jumped off the page and bit them on their faces! :tongue_smilie:

 

Just ironic...that's all. I personally feel that it is high time that there is some accountability to the system besides teaching to the bubble test. But, I don't have any problem producing "proof in the pudding" of what we've accomplished. I consider it my duty as a homeschooling parent to do so.

 

Faith

[Elizabeth in WA]

Our experience with SAT subject testing was a nightmare. My son took an outside class taught by a retired high school science teacher using Apologia Biology. He also took a health class using the Abeka 9th grade text and the teacher, a nurse, added lots of anatomy with the Grays Anatomy coloring pages, dissection, etc. He then worked through the Princeton Review Book (lots of material he had never seen before), & took multiple practice tests. Each practice test was different-he would study what he missed, and then that material wouldn't even be on the next practice test! A whole new set of stuff to study. Then when he took the test, there was still a whole section on the phosphorus cycle, which had not been covered in his text or the review book. So, how does a child do well? He made 100% on almost everything he did in the both classes. This experience has given me a whole new outlook on testing. We had previously planned on doing at least 4 SAT subject tests for high school, but now I'm not sure. It seems so random and just the luck of the draw-you do well if you get the right test.

 

Wow, my kids had a very different testing experience with the SAT Subject tests this spring. They used Campbell's Exploring Life, did some review in Miller/Levine and used the Sparknotes online practice tests and study guide for Biology. They did not see anything on the test that they had not seen before. They can't think of anything that wasn't in the main textbook, for that matter. Our results aren't back yet, and I am not saying they got every question right, just that they didn't see anything they didn't recognize as having been studied. Not everyone takes those after advanced courses. The prep school I attended requires them after their two year integrated Biology/Chemistry course in 9th and 10th for example. Students should be able to do well after an Honors level high school course in the subject in spite of AP students making the curve more difficult. (Languages and math do expect multiple courses.)

[memphispeg]

Stephanie;

Fab issue to bring up. When my dd and I decided to go for homeschooling for her last 2 years of high school, I really did not know how to begin. THANK YOU FORUM MEMBERS ONE AND ALL. What I did have in the back of my mind was what I felt should be the result of high school....a certain level of abilities to read and write, exposure and mastery of some key subjects, an idea of self-organization and study skills management.

We enrolled under an umbrella school that has certain requirements that are similar to the basic state requirements. We can generate a good paper trail if need be. Dd wanted to take certain subjects this past year and others for her sr. year. She had planned to do them at the ps. The curriculum that we had/have worked out has been more product-oriented than the one that she would have been exposed to in ps. I found lots of quality curriculum suggestions on the internet.....so many AP and college syllabi out there!!! The texts I chose came from those sites and from this forum.....we have made do with older editions and just made sure that the subject was covered as completely as in the curriculum guidelines from the web. This year we "finished" pre-calc and bio. We did much more than what was in the US History text. We sampled several books on argument analysis and writing enough to cover that topic fairly well. Am. lit was coupled to US History which made for exercises, not only in argument analysis/writing and literary analysis, but also historical analyses. All this was much more extensive than what they did in ps. Though, I often times wondered if they were more efficient there.

The main issue that we are now grappling with is that of taking outside classes, for let. of rec. and "validation". One of my current chores is to find out if I can write the teacher rec.---our umbrella school can provide the counselor letter. Our feeling right now is that homeschooling should be done at HOME. Dd is largely self-taught at this point. I am the grader, "discussion co-ordinator", logistics and support staff. I think I could present an honest evaluation of my dd's strengths and weaknesses.

In conclusion I am hoping we can finish at HOME....We can take standardized tests and submit portfolios if need be. We can get LOR from outside dance and community service adults...

Home schooling is a challenge but, what an adventure.....Wished we had started in 8th grade!!! There's so much we could have had fun doing!

[Shelly in VA]

Which titles would you suggest? :bigear:

 

Shelly

[Kim in SouthGa]

Elizabeth=

perhaps it was the text we used? after the fact, I read several posts of people who said their children who used Apologia did not do well. My understanding was that SAT II tests were supposed to test standard high school material, not AP/advanced/college level knowledge. What is the point of separate AP test if that is the case? Two other students from my son's class took the test and had the same issues as us. We will not do SAT II again unless we have taken advanced course in the subject.

Is the Campbell book a standard high school text?

[Elizabeth in WA]

Elizabeth=

perhaps it was the text we used? after the fact, I read several posts of people who said their children who used Apologia did not do well. My understanding was that SAT II tests were supposed to test standard high school material, not AP/advanced/college level knowledge. What is the point of separate AP test if that is the case? Two other students from my son's class took the test and had the same issues as us. We will not do SAT II again unless we have taken advanced course in the subject.

Is the Campbell book a standard high school text?

 

Yes, Campbell's Exploring Life is a standard high school level text book. And yes, SAT subject tests are intended to test high school level knowledge; so while it is true that students who take them after taking AP level courses make the curve, at least percentile-wise, harder, the tests are not designed to require advanced level courses in order to score well. That is, indeed, the purpose of AP exams. It may be that some texts are better suited to scoring well on the SAT subject exams than others, however. Of the two high school texts I am familiar with, Exploring Life and Miller/Levine, I think that covering the entirety of either (and then reviewing with a study guide) would prepare a student to do well on the SAT subject test in biology.

[Colleen in NS]

Granted, one cannot always "Make it work", but often the difficulties that parents encounter in Curriculum A are not solved by Curriculum B.

 

Simple teacherly advice to another teacher.

 

Oh my goodness, YES!!! I find that is rare. It is more common to recommend a program or a book. Now, sometimes I do this because something I know about seems to fit what a poster is looking for (and they seem to be looking for a book/program rec). But I try to differentiate between that and seeing if the poster is looking for some teaching help ("my 5yo is reversing his b's and d's - how do I help him?"), and answer accordingly.

 

So then when I come upon a glitch in my own teaching, I try really hard to make it clear in my request for help, that I am not necessarily looking for a book/program recommendation - but rather, I mostly just need teaching help from someone who has experienced a similar problem, or who might be able to see the solution that I can't see. I understand if people don't want to bother giving out that help because it can get complicated to explain here. But I sure appreciate it when someone "sees" my problem and helps me fix it. And really, it's a significant part of what I think these boards are for.

 

On one hand, it's nice that there is such a variety of programs/texts/helps out there on the market, because I'm guessing that some of them really do help people to better teach their kids. On the other hand, I've already picked out, based on research/reading/figuring out how I like to approach education, the programs/methods/books that I want to use; and have figured out for the most part how they work. I don't want to change or buy multiple other supplements. I can't afford to do so, and doing so would just confuse and frustrate me. Usually. And I usually just need some teacher help to get me past the glitch. Or a BTDT-person to say to me, "With the road you seem to have mapped out, what your child is doing now is fine - he/she will learn how to do thus-n-such in your later books, which will help him/her past this supposed glitch."

 

Maybe because I read SO many (older) homeschooling books 8-13 years ago, I am more of the mindset that I would rather make the resource I have work for me, instead of switching around. Like 8FilltheHeart and Alyce talked about. It's kind of empowering to know I can figure something out if I try and if I figure out the right questions to ask. But I'm not knocking anyone who prefers to do something like (for example) use the WWE workbooks as opposed to the instructor text that tells you how to teach each section.

 

I wonder if newer "how to homeschool" books have a newer flavour to them, as opposed to some older ones. I've even seen people mention here that the first edition of WTM was more "how to teach" oriented than method/resource recommendation oriented. My library used to have a copy of the first edition, but no more, so I couldn't check it out to see what people meant. Maybe I should find a used copy. :D But anyway, I wonder if people who are entering homeschooling in more recent years than I did (and my own entry is so recent compared to some of yours - society is spinning by so quickly) are just used to having choices of things that "work" already. And that's fine - it's just not what I am used to. For example, I cannot imagine (and am not able to) pouring out the money for some of the spelling programs on the market - so I stuck with my $25 WRTR, my homemade flashcards, my dollar-store composition notebook, and my pencils in order to teach my kids to read and spell. I asked my experienced teacher-mother for help with this - she gave me all sorts of teacher tips and tricks to try. I made it work, and am making it work for my child that has a harder time with it than my other one.

 

I attended a curriculum fair on Saturday, for the first time in years. I went to help a friend who is pulling her 13 year old son out of school to homeschool him. She's a few years older than me (47) and has the same sort of generational mentality that I have, in many ways. So, I told her all about the WTM, how I do things, why I do things. She liked what I had to say, and she bought a copy. I keep telling her, "I am very biased in my recommendations for homeschooling!" But she keeps asking me questions, and my answers seem to keep satisfying her, so it's rather fun to keep on helping her get started. So anyway, she is determined to prove herself as a homeschool teacher to her son, and because of that I believe she will do a great job, despite her constant wondering if she will. She believes her son has missed out on proper academic teaching, and wants to do it at home. So we were at this curriculum fair, and she wanted me to point out the materials that I would recommend for various skills/subjects and tell me why I recommended them. I did, but I also kept saying, "But I know there are other materials, too, that will teach the same skills/subjects, just from a different approach. I just don't want you to be limited and find that you can't teach with it." So we poured through those, too, to find the pros and cons; and in the end, she liked everything I liked and have used or would have used had it been on the market (like FLL 3 and 4 instead of R&S for grammar)(her son will be starting at lower skill levels than my son who is the same age). It saved a TON of time from pouring through all the OTHER books that were on display everywhere. She had most of her decisions made within the first two hours - I was shocked! And once she got going with knowing what to look for, she wandered off determinedly by herself. For example, I know there are a lot of great math programs out there, but I'm not so convinced that there is a huge choice of outstanding grammar programs. So I pointed out all the math curriculums that I'd read good things about, and she set out to ask questions at the various booths. I think she was glad to not have to be overwhelmed by the choice.

 

(side note: it made me chuckle to see that she didn't even go to any of the "main speaker" sessions - Todd Wilson - I didn't care for the one session of his I did attend - it was more "Don't worry, be happy, don't be fake in front of other homeschooler Moms," preaching type of thing - and he even said something that could easily be interpreted as culturally offensive here in NS - I was cringing at that - and then there was this: http://www.familymanweb.com/rvblog/greetings-from-maine Can you see why I was annoyed (and no, it's not even the iffy grammar)?? Esp. since he's an American homeschool Dad, who talked at that one session about how much his kids were learning as they traveled around? Anyway, my friend was just plain old interested in seeing books, picking books, and picking my brain and vendors' brains. And going to the very practical "getting started" workshop put on by another very dear friend of mine. It's going to be very fun for me to help her get going.)

 

So, where was my mind going.....I guess it's a generational mentality about active teaching with materials vs. leaning on the materials to teach. I never really understand why people say "Program A just doesn't work - any other recs?" I always want to know WHY it doesn't "work." But I don't ask unless the person seems to be looking for more in depth information.

 

So anyway, to answer Stephanie's question: "What, if anything, can the homeschool community do so the way they teach their children can be more accepted by those looking in?" For me, it's individual - I just try to give my kids the best academic education that I can possibly give, and let the results speak for themselves. My kids are still pretty young, but I've started receiving compliments from those who know them, about how they seem to be doing academically and socially (being able to relate to people easily)(despite all my sheltering, lol, and their "lack" of being able to get involved in most group activities - Sunday School - kids' choice - and families visiting together are about the extent of group activities so far in our family).

 

There is also the problem of US textbooks. They are meant to be used with a teacher who will pick and choose. They are not really designed to be completed in one year. The textbook companies put in everything that any school anywhere in the country might possibly want to teach during that subject.

 

Interesting - I didn't know that. That's actually really helpful to me to know. I have one popular high school science textbook here at home, that I picked up in a thrift store. I panic every time I look at the length and detail of the table of contents. I'm scared I will shortchange my kids, but I still really prefer the "read through a spine do extra reading and writing and experimenting read science Great Books" approach outlined in the WTM. Again, I'm not knocking those who like to use detailed science texts - they just scare me with the length and detail. And then how would I ever follow through with it? So far the reading/writing/discussing/experimenting/memorizing learning pattern has produced some widening and deepening science knowledge and skill here. Gradual, but it's happening.

 

I'm so glad for these forums and you ladies.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[Julie in MN]

so educational neglect or failure to meet age-appropriate and ability-appropriate standards is registered and, if repeated, the student ends up in the system (if they are still within the age of compulsory schooling).

So what happens to the kids who are "in the system" and fail the tests? Do they get put into homeschooling?

 

I'm sorry, but this just makes no sense to me.

[Ester Maria]

So what happens to the kids who are "in the system" and fail the tests? Do they get put into homeschooling?

They do not have that type of final yearly exams, but rather a mix of several written exams, some type of student production (in terms of papers, assigned reading, whatever) and oral exams (often in the middle of the year and unexpected, one is supposed to be prepared for every class), which together make up a system of continuous evaluation. Therefore, much of that "end of the year stress" is removed, because problems appear much earlier than that and can, consequently, be addressed much earlier than that.

 

If, for whatever reasons, the student still fails, they fail the subject / year in sense that they are rimandato a settembre, i.e. they are supposed to take yearly exams to reach sufficiency in the subject(s) before they are allowed to continue with the rest of the class. Some schools, and I believe the new law, switched from that system to the system of debiti formativi, which is essentially the same thing, just a bit more flexible and allowing you a shot at some sort of summer classes (I think?, but only if you wish, i.e. they cannot make you take it) to make up for it.

 

If, in spite of all of that, the student does not reach sufficiency in all subjects needed, they justly fail a year because it absolutely cannot be tolerated that the education suffer or that they hold other students back. Given the system of continuous evaluation AND esami di recupero, nobody can complain that they did not have a chance.

 

In a case where they believe they are judged unjustly on those additional exams, they are allowed to file a complaint and request a more formal exam in front of the commission that is formed for that purpose, so there is no whining of the kind "I failed the oral because the prof doesn't like me." That kind of possibility exists even for students who are simply not satisfied with their grade, but their grade is on the scale of the sufficient ones rather than on the scale of the insufficient ones. Same system as in the university, in essence: you are practically offered a grade which you can accept or decline, if you believe you know for a higher grade.

 

A lot of kids, at some point, have to face that situation. A lot of them get held back as a result of not being adequately prepared. I think it is reasonable and just and may it continue to happen, lest we give in to the grade inflation and ruin the little quality that is left our schools (which, sadly, is starting to happen).

 

That you should pass the exams is not the school's responsibility. The school is there to provide you a way to master the material, a sort of structure to guide you there, but ultimately, your grades need to reflect your concrete and demonstrated knowledge and nothing else. If you are insufficient to pass, after all the opportunities you were given to learn the material, consult yourself with the professor, etc., you are insufficient, ergo, you are sent to repeat a year - tough love, c'est la vie, honey, you had your chances (numerous ones!) and you messed up. Repeatedly.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Julie in MN]

A lot of kids, at some point, have to face that situation. A lot of them get held back as a result of not being adequately prepared. I think it is reasonable and just and may it continue to happen, lest we give in to the grade inflation and ruin the little quality that is left our schools (which, sadly, is starting to happen).

 

That you should pass the exams is not the school's responsibility. The school is there to provide you a way to master the material, a sort of structure to guide you there, but ultimately, your grades need to reflect your concrete and demonstrated knowledge and nothing else. If you are insufficient to pass, after all the opportunities you were given to learn the material, consult yourself with the professor, etc., you are insufficient, ergo, you are sent to repeat a year - tough love, c'est la vie, honey, you had your chances (numerous ones!) and you messed up. Repeatedly.

 

Well, thanks for sharing those details. It's interesting to me.

 

But the point is... if homeschooled kids were tested, some would fail.

 

If public school kids are tested, some fail.

 

So what are the consequences?

 

If homeschool kids fail, they are sent to public schools? Put in the public school system? What?!!! If both systems fail, then what is the sense in moving a kid from one to the other?

 

The only way this would be logical is if they also take the failing public school kids and send them to homeschools -- just on the principle that one system isn't working for a particular student. But if *only* homeschoolers are kicked out of their whole system of education because of failing tests, and the rest are left in their system of education that produced failing tests, then there is no logic whatsoever in the world :confused:

 

Julie

Edited June 14, 2011 by Julie in MN
spelling

[elegantlion]

Just a few ancedotes to add to the conversation.

 

Almost thirty years ago I remember arguing with my English teacher about some grammar construct. It was my sophomore year and she marked me wrong on something we had not learned the previous year (9th grade was in junior high). I asked her how I was supposed to know this if I had never been taught. I was a straight A student, so I knew it was something we had NOT learned. She almost called me a liar and said she didn't care that I should know anyway. That was the beginning of my realization that (at least in my school) the majority of teachers didn't give a carp about educating the student, the just wanted them in and out of the class.

 

A few years ago a high school in our previous city was shutting down. It was a low performing school and over 50% of the 9th graders were reading at a 6th grade level. All the other schools were moaning about accepting these students. I wonder how many of those student have since fallen through the cracks (maybe the gaping hole!) in the system.

 

ETA: What this adds to the conversation, I don't know. But I've seen a disconnect in the school systems. I like Ester Maria's idea of making the school the place to master the material. Sadly, I've seen more cases of finger pointing when it comes to who is responsible for breakdown of "mastery of material". The high school can't be blamed because the students read at a 6th grade level. The middle school was only dealing with the level of students the received from elementary. So do we have to start the restructuring at the early elementary level? Are districts and parents willing to do that? Does that average parent of a first grader understand how their school district operates, where there might be a break in the teaching? IDK. I'm just glad I homeschool.

Edited June 14, 2011 by elegantlion
finishing the thought

[regentrude]

Did he finish all his textbooks? no, not a single one. The teacher skipped around and often taught outside the book.

 

This fact alone has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of education he received.

I teach physics at a university, and nobody ever covers the whole textbook. It can not be done in the time that we have - not if we want the students to learn and understand the material. Rushing through a book in order to have visited all chapters does not mean the student has understood anything -often it is much better to select important chapters and spend enough time on them to cover them thoroughly.

The textbook is a helpful tool - NOT a prison.

 

When I myself was a college student, there were no assigned textbooks whatsoever. The professors would, at the beginning of the semester, recommend a list of different textbooks that were suitable to use, but their lectures were not tied to a book. They designed their own course, and often book A was good to use at the beginning of the semester, book B good for a special topic during week 5, and so on.

[Janice in NJ]

Hi Colleen,

 

My dd is taking her first college course during summer session. A six-week, three-credit course. The textbook has eighteen chapters. The teacher is covering eight of them. So far he hasn't hemmed-n-hawed about his coverage one bit.

 

Teach, baby, teach. You're rockin Colleen. Just keep it up! ;)

 

Peace,

Janice

[Kim in SouthGa]

This fact alone has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of education he received.

I teach physics at a university, and nobody ever covers the whole textbook. It can not be done in the time that we have - not if we want the students to learn and understand the material. Rushing through a book in order to have visited all chapters does not mean the student has understood anything -often it is much better to select important chapters and spend enough time on them to cover them thoroughly.

The textbook is a helpful tool - NOT a prison.

 

When I myself was a college student, there were no assigned textbooks whatsoever. The professors would, at the beginning of the semester, recommend a list of different textbooks that were suitable to use, but their lectures were not tied to a book. They designed their own course, and often book A was good to use at the beginning of the semester, book B good for a special topic during week 5, and so on.

 

The not finishing his textbook didn't bother me-I asked him about it because I always feel tied to ours, like we can't be done with school unless every chapter is covered. Same with the writing-I just wanted to see what was acceptable there to compare with what we are doing at home. It was the not reading a whole book that bothered me. And by book I mean literature book, not textbook.

[Ester Maria]

If homeschool kids fail, they are sent to public schools? Put in the public school system? What?!!! If both systems fail, then what is the sense in moving a kid from one to the other?

 

The only way this would be logical is if they also take the failing public school kids and send them to homeschools -- just on the principle that one system isn't working for a particular student. But if *only* homeschoolers are kicked out of their whole system of education because of failing tests, and the rest are left in their system of education that produced failing tests, then there is no logic whatsoever in the world :confused:

Homeschooling in many European countries is not a "separate system" the way you imagine it shaped by the American experience. Picutre it this way: it is the *same* system, only a different *mode* (in lack of a better expression). You can even imagine it like a status of a non-attending student, but who is still bound by some minimal expectations of the system (i.e. the need to reach sufficiency in the standard subjects taught). That is the way to ensure the prevention of abuse of "educational freedom" (because, like I said earlier in the thread, a non-regulated, fully free system, is also very prone to abuse of all sorts), because they do not want homeschooling to become a legal excuse for educational neglect. In fact, private schooling in many of those countries - barring the diplomatic exception of international schools - is scrutinized the same way: private schools are often NOT free to disregard the national curriculum, i.e. they can expand on it, but they cannot not address the minimum required (this is a more complex topic, though). In fact, the ONLY way to be fully OUT of the system is to send to an international school, only then are you fully under the custody and under the rules of a different system and it is treated like a sort of diplomatic exception. If you are merely homeschooling, in most places it is treated like a different *mode* of the same thing.

 

So, that is why, if you repeatedly fail (I am not sure about exact rules in the case of that, I think you need to fail two years in a row for you to definitely have to send the student to attend), and there is no reason why you would fail (e.g. severe LDs that are medically backed up or other accomodations which might be needed and they DO take into account if they are present, or unexpected grave health issues, etc.), the assumption is that you are worse off than you would be in the system and/or that the freedom to homeschool is used to non-school which, if the child is still legally of the age when they are required by law to be schooled, is not acceptable. And frankly, having seen some instances of educational neglect, I know exactly where they come from.

 

Also, there is no really the mentality that the "system" produced the effect of failing tests, at least not yet. It is considered an individual responsibility, rather than the school should drag you to succeed. The system has to provide you a way and a structure to learn, but the responsibility to actually apply yourself is on you, not the system, especially if you are an older kid. The freedom to be exempted from some aspects of the system (attendance and, consequently, continuous evaluation) is followed with the responsibility to meet its minimal requirements, otherwise anyone can absue the system to non-school.

[Ester Maria]

When I myself was a college student, there were no assigned textbooks whatsoever. The professors would, at the beginning of the semester, recommend a list of different textbooks that were suitable to use, but their lectures were not tied to a book. They designed their own course, and often book A was good to use at the beginning of the semester, book B good for a special topic during week 5, and so on.

Same here - even if for science majors there often were some kind of compact textbooks which were good as a spine, but they were still handed bibliography lists.

 

My university "textbooks" were bibliography lists which were in two parts: the first part were obligatory works that you had to go through during the year for the final exam, and the second part was the elective part which you could consult for your seminar writings, or sometimes you were even required to prepare a book or two from that list for the exam too. The exams in humanities usually include an entire reading list to prepare (original texts + back-up literature and secondary bibliography), not a compact textbook of any kind. God knows how many exams I had with several dozens, and more!, books to prepare.

(ETA: Of course, with the newest reform, things ARE significantly worse in terms of academic standards.)

Edited June 14, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Kim in SouthGa]

Same here - even if for science majors there often were some kind of compact textbooks which were good as a spine, but they were still handed bibliography lists.

 

My university "textbooks" were bibliography lists which were in two parts: the first part were obligatory works that you had to go through during the year for the final exam, and the second part was the elective part which you could consult for your seminar writings, or sometimes you were even required to prepare a book or two from that list for the exam too. The exams in humanities usually include an entire reading list to prepare (original texts + back-up literature and secondary bibliography), not a compact textbook of any kind. God knows how many exams I had with several dozens, and more!, books to prepare.

(ETA: Of course, with the newest reform, things ARE significantly worse in terms of academic standards.)

 

Might I ask your major? and did you attend college in the US? I ask because this is so vastly different than my experience. I majored in Biology at a major university here in the US and had textbooks for all my classes, except literature, with a syllabus of readings given at the beginning of the semester. Pretty much could study the text, take good notes and study those, and you would do well in the class.

Just curious.

[FaithManor]

there is no really the mentality that the "system" produced the effect of failing tests, at least not yet. It is considered an individual responsibility, rather than the school should drag you to succeed. The system has to provide you a way and a structure to learn, but the responsibility to actually apply yourself is on you, not the system, especially if you are an older kid.

 

Ester Maria brings up an excellent cultural difference. In her experience in Europe, there is student and parent responsibility. They recognize and embrace the old adage, "You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." The school is not responsible for those that refuse to work and alternative forms of education cannot be claimed as an excuse for the child to not work.

 

here is little, if any, student accountability with the older students here in America from what many of us have seen and in many schools, that lack of accountability descends into elementary school. Therefore while Ester Maria sees value in remaining accountable to the system because the system has some accountability built into it, American homeschoolers see no value in being accountable to our system because it is out of control with no accountability. We see it as an attempt to ask far more of us than it requires of itself.

 

I'd be interested to know what European schools do with the consistently refusing to work/comply older student? Are they still housed with the other students in regular classrooms? Are their alternative education schools? Is the student sent home and are their consequences for that student or parent? Is this a very rare occurence because of the cultural emphasis on academics?

 

I'm curious and learning!

 

Faith

[regentrude]

I'd be interested to know what European schools do with the consistently refusing to work/comply older student? Are they still housed with the other students in regular classrooms? Are their alternative education schools? Is the student sent home and are their consequences for that student or parent? Is this a very rare occurence because of the cultural emphasis on academics?

 

I can only speak for Germany.

Students choose between two (in some states 3 ) different kinds of schools (tracking begins in 5th grade, but later switches are possible.) Students who do not wish to attend a 4 year university, but rather go into vocational training or community college type school, finish school after 10th grade - they are NOT dropouts, they receive an education tailored to their needs which ENDS with 10th grade.

the college prep track goes through 12th grade.

So, you do not have kids hanging around till 12th grade who are not academically inclined - they get done two years earlier.

OTOH, this means that a student who is attending the more challenging college prep school can be sent to the other kind of school if he is consistently underperforming. So, while they have a right to free schooling, they are not entitled to attend the college prep track and can be dismissed if they don't have the ability or attitude.

 

For the rare student with severe issues, there are special schools for students with mental disabilities, severe learning disorders, severe emotional disorders.

 

Side note: Before people complain that this determines a student's future at age 10: that is NOT correct. My niece, for instance, graduated from a 10 grade school due to her disability (the school for kids with disabilities does not have a college prep track) and after that entered added a 3 year program that gives her the college prep degree. She graduates next week.

[FaithManor]

That sounds very interesting Regentrude. I also seem to get the feeling that the concept of education in some European countries is more flexible and fluid. Here we seem to be stuck in this k-12 mode and everyone has to go x years and you can't move ahead and you can't drop out early. It's a very narrow view; there is a fixation with everyone doing the exact same thing at the exact same time, taking the exact same classes, and few options.

 

Also, do German schools teach art, music, and P.E. during school hours? Are these considered school necessities or are they provided through other means? Do the schools offer sports and how is that handled?

I'm just wondering if there is less interruption to the school day in Germany.

 

Faith

[Hunter's Moon]

Thank you everyone, for indulging me.

 

I really enjoyed reading the different POVs.

[regentrude]

Also, do German schools teach art, music, and P.E. during school hours? Are these considered school necessities or are they provided through other means? Do the schools offer sports and how is that handled?

I'm just wondering if there is less interruption to the school day in Germany.

 

Yes, art, music and PE are taught during normal school hours- three periods of PE per week, two periods of art, two of music - or something like this. This instruction, however, is not very rigorous. Kids who wish to study an instrument do so in their free time, with instruction provided by private instructors or music schools.

Sports outside of the normal PE class are not tied to the school. Soccer teams, swim teams etc all exist and are, too , relegated to the private life.

 

The view is that school is for academics. There are voluntary clubs and enrichment activities after school.

 

Setting aside the time for arts, music and PE is possible because not every subject is taught every single day. In high school, a student would typically have math, English, German and French(or a different language) four times a week each; biology, physics and chemistry three times a week (as often mentioned, sciences are taught simultaneously).

There are 10-15 minutes breaks between periods during which students are free to do whatever, and a longer lunch recess.

[Ester Maria]

Might I ask your major? and did you attend college in the US?

Italian literature and philology; and no - in fact, I generally hold that the true value of the American system is in the PhD education, not in the stages that lead there, at least when it comes to humanities. In fact, to be perfectly honest with you, I find a random LAC in the US to be a rough equivalent of a solid European lycee. Somewhere on the MA level things start to even out, though, even if I still hold that the humanities education in Europe is more systematic, thorough and better than in the US, because it generally builds on the tradition of a classical humanist education started in the lycees. Of course, the newest reform messed up European high education greatly, "americanized" it in many ways, but that is another discussion.

 

I can think of a few fields, mostly technical, scientific and specialized ones, which I think are better started in the US right away - usually due to the better equipment, more money invested in research and more research-based learning, etc.

I'd be interested to know what European schools do with the consistently refusing to work/comply older student? Are they still housed with the other students in regular classrooms? Are their alternative education schools? Is the student sent home and are their consequences for that student or parent? Is this a very rare occurence because of the cultural emphasis on academics?

This is a very broad topic, it is hard to do it justice in the format of the forum. It is also worth noting that things have changed, for better and for worse, in some aspects from when I attended school.

 

For the most part, whether you work or not is your issue, something between you and your parents, while the school does its job in providing lectures and continuous evaluation. When I was schooled, it was mostly ex cathedra lecture approach + seminar-style discussions, very little any form of hands on learning or something which would require the student to actually do something, so if you zoned out without disrupting anyone, that was often tolerated. If disruptive, disrespectful, refusing to engage when required, etc., they would usually ask you to leave the class OR use their legal right to interrogate you to calm you down (essentially, they could orally examine you whenever since you were supposed to be prepared for every lesson, so that was another weapon in their arsenal for students who crossed the line, because it meant potentially ruining your average grade for that class). Since schools were a lot less about babysitting when I was there, for an older student, that was acceptable.

 

Consequences? Pretty much nothing in high school, though a certain number of those absences from the class got you in some kind of trouble, I think. But there were generally no punitive means whatsoever (detention or whatnot), as long as they had the freedom to eventually expel you if you were consistently out of control. If you were past the age of compulsory schooling, you were also reminded that you did not have to be there if you did not want - that was one of the mantras you were told.

 

In high school, PE is 2x weekly, Art turns into Art History and is taught over a period of 3 or 5 years (depending on the type of school), even though there is Disegno in scientific schools (which is basically a kind of technical drawing / architecture), Music is not the part of the regular curriculum in high school, if not as a part of some theoretical / history subject in some schools. There are also artistic lycees which I am not sure exactly how they function which blend a sort of specialized art education (I think they even have sub-specializations after the second year, so you can focus on sculpture, scenography, graphic design, etc.) with general lycee education. Music is, usually, an out-of-school interest (though you do get taught basics in terms of solfeggio, etc. in elementary) - students can attend additional music institutions or have private lessons. Same with those who are more professionally into sports, as opposed to just the regular PE.

[Colleen in NS]

Hi Colleen,

 

My dd is taking her first college course during summer session. A six-week, three-credit course. The textbook has eighteen chapters. The teacher is covering eight of them. So far he hasn't hemmed-n-hawed about his coverage one bit.

 

Teach, baby, teach. You're rockin Colleen. Just keep it up! ;)

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Thanks for cheering me on every so often, Janice! You're pretty rockin' yourself. :D

[FaithManor]

Ester and Regentrude, thank you again for the interesting discussion! If you can bear with me, I have more questions.

 

What is the compulsory attendance age in your respective countries and at what age may an uninterested student drop out of school?

 

It varies by state here in the U.S., but some states are going to force attendance to the age of 18 and given that we have such a limited, narrow view of high school, I am afraid that this is only going to worsen the situation.

 

My other question concerns special education students. You mentioned schools specifically for children with L.D.'s, medical problems that impact learning, etc. Are these public schools or tuition schools? If tuition based, are there a lot of parents who can not afford to get an appropriate education for their child?

 

I am keenly interested.

 

Faith

[regentrude]

What is the compulsory attendance age in your respective countries and at what age may an uninterested student drop out of school?

 

 

In Germany, compulsory schooling begins at age 6 and ends at age 16.

Normally, that would be after 10th grade in the Realschule, which gives you a valid high school diploma. If a student was retained and had to repeat grades, he may leave the school after spending 9 or 10 (depends on state) years in school, but would then be a drop out without a high school diploma.

 

It varies by state here in the U.S., but some states are going to force attendance to the age of 18 and given that we have such a limited, narrow view of high school, I am afraid that this is only going to worsen the situation.

 

 

I agree. I do not see why young people who are clearly not college bound should not quit school after 10th grade (with a education that is DESIGNED for this) and enter apprenticeships or vocational training.

 

My other question concerns special education students. You mentioned schools specifically for children with L.D.'s, medical problems that impact learning, etc. Are these public schools or tuition schools? If tuition based, are there a lot of parents who can not afford to get an appropriate education for their child?

 

 

In Germany, every student is entitled to free schooling at public schools. There are specialized public schools for students with physical disabilities (my niece has CP and attended such a school), for the blind and for the hearing impaired.

There are also schools for students with mental disabilities, schools for students with learning disabilities, and schools for students with behavioral issues whose problems are so severe that they can not be integrated in a normal class room.

All these are free public schools and the parents do not have to pay tuition. For healthy students, transportation to and from school is the responsibility of the parent, but for students with disabilities, transportation is provided by the school.

Therapies, which, since the schools are specialized for their special needs students, often take place in school, are free, too.

[kiana]

I agree. I do not see why young people who are clearly not college bound should not quit school after 10th grade (with a education that is DESIGNED for this) and enter apprenticeships or vocational training.

 

 

:iagree:

 

I would really like to see school easier to get out of early and more emphasis on serious vocational training.

[Ester Maria]

What is the compulsory attendance age in your respective countries and at what age may an uninterested student drop out of school?

It used to be 14, then they raised it to 16 to keep up with the Joneses (i.e. the rest of the EU), and now from what I hear they raised it - or plain to raise it - to 18 with the newest reform these years, which is idiotic in my view, but then again that newest reform has many aspects of infantilizing the educational system, but you do not want me to start a rant on that. Upper school education is streamed (there are lycees, but there are also technical institutes, etc.).

 

Regarding medical problems, Italy has an inclusive policy, i.e. those students are normally enrolled in mainstream schools, but with additional accomodations as needed (blind students, etc.). I am not sure what is the policy with extreme behavior issues, etc., since most people generally have fairly low tolerance level to that if it affects the rest of the class, but Italy has a history of at least trying to be maximally inclusive.

 

Personally, I believe the "right" approach is somewhere in between Germany and Italy when it comes to these issues - there is a time and a place for inclusion, IMO, but also for offering separate facilities for extreme cases.

[EKS]

The textbook is a helpful tool - NOT a prison.

 

 

 

Absolutely. And I find that the more comfortable I am with the subject matter, the more confident I feel about selecting what is relevant from textbooks. For example, in designing a biology course for my son next year (my background is biochemistry), I selected a college level text, but we will only be doing half of it. Now math is a different story. There I make him do the whole book even if it kills him!

[Guest Nedra in CA]

Hi everyone!

 

I am brand new to these forums. We have been homeschooling since 1995 and have 5 children; 1 graduated, 1 graduates next year, an 8th grader and 5 yr. old twins.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with what was written below. My thoughts exactly. It seems very strange to me to watch families take their children out of school to then turn them over to 6 other teachers co-op style as young as preschool age. Some are even in more than one all day co-op. The co-op teachers choose the subjects taught and the materials used. It is once again out of the parents hands. They buy what they are told to buy, and homeschool is actually homework, work completed as assigned by their teachers.

 

8FillTheHeart, I don't know about you but I long for the "days of old." The days when we had much less to choose from but gave our children a stellar education regardless. There were larger groups at things like park days and field trips, and homeschooling mothers depended on each other for support vs. leaning on their many co-op teachers. I don't know how it is in your area, but where I live the co-ops were started by ex-public school teachers and most of the class teachers are also ex-public school. Essentially we are going from one form of public school to another. And yes, back in the "good old days" our kids were going to college.

 

I administrate an umbrella school in my area and it saddens me to receive calls from new homeschoolers who are already stressed out because they can't afford the $4,000 a year (not including books) that some they know are paying for co-op classes so that their children can receive a "better" education? If we feel someone else can do a better job, why not just leave them in school?

 

Now, I am not speaking of families that outsource a subject here and there; a a science course with labs, piano lessons, you get the picture. But we have an epidemic in our area of co-op-itis, the "I am going to fill every class all of my 5 children are taking with an outside the home source." attitude. Is this HOMEschooling? The children involved speak of DYING (not literally, but you get the point) without their co-op, so they are just as peer addicted as their public school counterparts.

 

As far as testing goes, how can these tests show even a glimmer of knowledge known by each individual student *unless* said student is following along with the same prescribed subjects, taught during the same years, as their public school peers? Aren't the tests based on what is currently being taught in the public school?

 

Fun conversation ladies!

 

 

 

I only have a sec, so I probably won't be able to answer this question w/any sort of justice of time that it deserves.

 

Warning.....only read if you don't care about being offended!!

 

:rant:

 

When I first started homeschooling (1994), parents really weren't worried about what other people thought---we knew!! They thought we were nuts!! We were focused on teaching our children the skills that we wanted them to know. Like Faith posted in the other thread, we didn't search for the "perfect" curriculum. We taught. We didn't spend days out of our home looking for "socialization" opportunities. We thought "socialization" was the argument for those that opposed homeschooling.:confused:

 

We didn't worry about whether others thought we were qualified to teach subjects x,y,z. We had been told 100x we weren't and we found out that we could anyway. We taught ourselves in order to teach our kids. We didn't look for scripts or daily plans telling us exactly what to do. **WE** were the teachers. We were the ones defining our own homeschools. We didn't ask or seek approval from co-op teachers, from curriculum providers, and colleges accepted these kids anyway. (maybe not all of them, but the ones that did found out that these students were different/unique/an asset to their communities.)

 

Today's homeschool students are cookie-cutter students that reflect the same education as everyone else sitting in their co-op. They are being taught be "teachers" that are not their parents starting in K for goodness sakes.

 

My (obviously very obnoxious and ranting) answer is that when homeschooling returns home and moms return to actual teaching. :tongue_smilie:

:rant:

[Nan in Mass]

I sometimes long for "the old days" but in my case, what I am longing for was the time when the children were younger. My baby is about to turn 17!!!!!

-Nan