S/O Health care now a human right in Vermont

[TXMomof4]

<caveat: did not read the whole thread, so am most likely stepping into a minefield here>

 

Because, if I understand that quote correctly, tntgoodwin is in the military?

 

The job of the military is to be willing to die for a living. In recompense, they (and their families) are offered healthcare while alive.

 

Sounds really awful when you write it out, doesn't it?

 

 

a

repeating the caveat - but healthcare is *included* in a compensation packages - just the same as it was for dh in his civilian job.

 

He just got his compensation statement (not sure what the official term it, but it's the same as he had in the civilian world). It included his base pay, BAH, BAS, healthcare, possible savings by shopping at PX/commissary, etc. to come to a total compensation.

[cdrumm4448]

Because there are enough of us that resist the people = commodity ideal to demand that we have SOMETHING in place. And what assistance IS available is constantly under attack by those who want the U.S. to become nothing more than a corporate-run state.

 

Ergo, the attack on Medicare. The attacks on "welfare queens" in the 90's. The attacks on jobless benefits. The attacks on education.

 

You didn't think these were unrelated did you? They are not. They are part of a systematic assault on anything even remotely socialized in this country, in order to force people in these segments of society to either pay for private options, rely upon charity, or , I guess, die in a ditch somewhere.

 

I disagree. I believe most people agree there should be some system in place. I happen to believe in a hand up instead of a hand-out. I believe there is a systematic assault on anything even remotely independent in this country, in order to force people to rely on the government for everything.

[Mrs Mungo]

repeating the caveat - but healthcare is *included* in a compensation packages - just the same as it was for dh in his civilian job.

 

He just got his compensation statement (not sure what the official term it, but it's the same as he had in the civilian world). It included his base pay, BAH, BAS, healthcare, possible savings by shopping at PX/commissary, etc. to come to a total compensation.

 

Everyone is in violent agreement on the fact that it is part of military compensation, even an extremely important one retention-wise.

[Jennifer3141]

No - their health insurance is really good. They have a $1000 deductible, and $20 copays. No limits.

 

I have to really question this. At least in Michigan, the cost of a policy like that would be THOUSANDS every month. So you're telling us that this family sacrifices everything to pay for the best healthcare possible? Why would they do that? Who is sick in that family?

[cathmom]

No - their health insurance is really good. They have a $1000 deductible, and $20 copays. No limits.

 

does insurance like that exist? and how can they afford it privately?

 

Probably less than 1% of Americans have insurance like that - I've never even heard of it.

[SailorMom]

I guess I don't understand your point of why you think there shouldn't be national healthcare because of this family. How is it "crude and rude" to ask for qualifications on idiocy?

 

No - the language used.... I won't retype, but I find the "s*** it" comments crude and rude.

 

Look - it is one of many reasons, i have about 15. In this case, I was saying that the need in American is not as great as the statistics make it, and many can afford coverage, they just make the choice not to. So - should the rest of us who made choices to include healthcare in our finances pay for their healthcare while they spend away?

 

I get the whole "ER" issue - saying that the public ends up paying anyway. But I do not think that universal healthcare is the answer.

 

I also do not think the US can afford it, and to raise taxes in a recession is ludicrous.

 

I do think that there are constructive and easily implemented ways of closing some of the gaps and making healthcare more affordable without a single payer/universal plan.

[Jennifer3141]

No. They just die.

 

They've been conditioned that "The State" will take care of them, so they wait. And wait. No matter what is wrong. And things get worse and worse. Until they are at the point that there *is* no fix.

 

And they die.

 

 

How's that for dramatic? It's true.

 

 

a

 

We have that here too. We call it, "MEDICAID."

[asta]

And yet, asta, they are dying at older ages, and at slower rates than citizens here in the U.S. Statistics bear this out repeatedly.

 

I have never argued that socialized programs in other countries are flawless. Merely, that they are less flawed, more equal in their distribution of health care, and therefore more successful in keeping their respective populations healthy.

 

Emotional arguments cannot supercede the objective facts.

 

Have you lived in a nation with socialist healthcare?

 

 

a

[Aelwydd]

I disagree that nothing but government regulation will keep plans reasonable priced. If we were allowed a truly free choice, supply and demand would prevail.

 

A truly free market would mean that pharmaceuticals could patent their medications and charge what they want, for as long as they want. (No regulation to stop them).

 

A truly free market would mean that hospitals could deny care to any that they wanted, even in emergency situations. (No regulation to require them to give care.)

 

A truly free market would mean obscene profits for the owners of insurance companies, because they can deny, deny, deny. They can hold pre-existing conditions against their clients, and they can reject that expensive medication for the child with cancer, for a less expensive, and less effective one.

 

 

A truly free market means that cures will only be developed where the market is most profitable. That means finding ways to MANAGE diseases like diabetes, because it means a lot more profit if you can keep them coming back for treatments, medications, and so forth.

 

A truly free market, would as we seen with the de-regulated airline companies, see a drastic increase in profits, with a corresponding decrease in service quality.

 

Health care should be predicated upon service to others; not constructed as a monument to greed.

[Carol in Cal.]

Nothing but government regulation will keep plans 'reasonably priced.'

 

It's the very same insurance commissions that mandate policies sold in each individual state cover everything but the kitchen sink, thereby driving up the price.

 

Shared risk is the fundamental principle of insurance. It is what it is. If it's not shared, it's not really insurance.

[Aelwydd]

Have you lived in a nation with socialist healthcare?

 

 

a

 

Not yet. We're moving to Canada in another year. I'm sure you'll wish me luck. :)

[SailorMom]

I have to really question this. At least in Michigan, the cost of a policy like that would be THOUSANDS every month. So you're telling us that this family sacrifices everything to pay for the best healthcare possible? Why would they do that? Who is sick in that family?

 

They pay $1800.00 a month, for the 3 of them. They aren't sacrificing everything. They own a home, eat healthy food, have a basic cell phone, own two used cars, have pets, etc.

They simply made the choice to pay what they needed to for healthcare so that they would never have to worry about catastrophic care.

 

We have an extremely high expectation of what middle-class life should look like in this country. We think we "deserve" a lot more than we do. They have simply chosen to live more simply and not take the risk of bankruptcy. No one is sick, they do have a young child - the birth of which was fully covered.

 

Question what you like, but these are the facts. I know them very well, and we have had many conversations about all of this.

[Carol in Cal.]

I disagree that nothing but government regulation will keep plans reasonable priced. If we were allowed a truly free choice, supply and demand would prevail.

 

There is no reasonable mechanism for supply and demand to work in health insurance, except for at a large group level. That is why we have good large group coverage and bad coverage everywhere else.

[cdrumm4448]

Furthermore, because I believe that government is BY the people and FOR the people, I also believe that there is no more appropriate use for the government than to serve in this capacity, and protect the greatest asset this nation has -- its citizens. And that means making sure they don't all die from preventable, curable diseases, and incur huge personal debts that straddle them, and keep them competing with other societies.

 

Pardon me if I believe that the burden is easier to carry if everyone contributes via taxes; I don't take the moral "high" road of encouraging most people to keep their money to themselves and their own interests, while extolling the saintly few who give up most of their earnings to help the unfortunate.

 

It is not up to the government of take care of its people in those ways. It's up to the people to take care of themselves.

 

As to the high road, I absolutely do encourage everyone to keep their money to themselves and decide for themselves who to give it to. I firmly believe in charity. I believe the impersonal government takes away a very personal scenario: that of the giver directly to the givee. Jesus did not say,""For I was hungry and the government gave me food, I was thirsty and the government gave me drink, I was a stranger and the government welcomed me, I was naked and the government clothed me, I was sick and the government visited me, I was in prison and the government came to visit me."

[Aelwydd]

It is not up to the government of take care of its people in those ways. It's up to the people to take care of themselves.

 

As to the high road, I absolutely do encourage everyone to keep their money to themselves and decide for themselves who to give it to. I firmly believe in charity. I believe the impersonal government takes away a very personal scenario: that of the giver directly to the givee. Jesus did not say,""For I was hungry and the government gave me food, I was thirsty and the government gave me drink, I was a stranger and the government welcomed me, I was naked and the government clothed me, I was sick and the government visited me, I was in prison and the government came to visit me."

 

 

What is the government of the United States, if it is not the People?

[SailorMom]

Quick question - I really have no info on this -

Countries with socialized healthcare - any issues with illegal immigration? How is that handled?

I know here in the states it is a big issue....

[cathmom]

They pay $1800.00 a month, for the 3 of them. They aren't sacrificing everything. They own a home, eat healthy food, have a basic cell phone, own two used cars, have pets, etc.

They simply made the choice to pay what they needed to for healthcare so that they would never have to worry about catastrophic care.

 

 

 

You understand that many people do not have an option to pay that kind of money for insurance, right? That it's not just because they're choosing to spend it on cruises, but because that is their entire budget for the month. And it's not because they're not working, it's because they're low-paid.

[SailorMom]

You know, this triggers one of my pet peeves about the insanity that is our health care non-system. Entrepreneurship is severely stunted in this country by the tying of health care benefits to employment with large enough firms to offer guaranteed-issue coverage at reasonable rates. I know SO MANY PEOPLE who could reasonably start and run their own businesses if it weren't for the catastrophic downside risk of having no medical insurance, or of being dependent on completely undependable private coverage in that event. Retention rates in private corporations are hugely dependent on the availability of reasonably priced group medical insurance and the LACK of availability of reasonably priced, dependable individual or small group policies.

 

I don't know if you read above - but my friend goes through Blue Cross privately and they have no problem making the premiums. Blue Cross has never given them any problems about thier care.

[SailorMom]

You understand that many people do not have an option to pay that kind of money for insurance, right? That it's not just because they're choosing to spend it on cruises, but because that is their entire budget for the month. And it's not because they're not working, it's because they're low-paid.

 

I already said that in my original post. I know there are many who can't afford it legitimately and agreed that we needed reform.

[cdrumm4448]

I ask this as gently as possible. Do you truly believe that everyone on every type of government assistance is a freeloading deadbeat?

 

Now, you know I never said or implied that.

 

What I HAVE said is that we will always have people who need assistance. I've said it over and over and over again, but it is habitually ignored.

 

We all agree there should be a level of assistance, but we disagree as to how much or how far-reaching it should be.

[TXMomof4]

Quick question - I really have no info on this -

Countries with socialized healthcare - any issues with illegal immigration? How is that handled?

I know here in the states it is a big issue....

 

I haven't looked at this in a few years, but it makes a huge difference. If I were illegal in any 'civilized country' I would not be entitled to national healthcare.

 

Cold medicine is apparently seriously compromising my thought processes, so I'll come back with links later.

[cathmom]

I don't know if you read above - but my friend goes through Blue Cross privately and they have no problem making the premiums. Blue Cross has never given them any problems about thier care.

 

My dh's boss warned him about staying with our private BC plan because they just became state employees. He wanted dh to go on the state plan. He knows of a good amount of people who, when they started having claims, BC raised their rates and kept raising them until they were unaffordable, as a way to "drop" them.

[Once]

This. Beautifully put. No amount of money will cause me to feel good about denying reasonable healthcare to anyone, deserving or not.

[Aelwydd]

Hey guys - fun debate. I'm going to take a break now and go swimming and eat hamburgers. I'll be back later.

 

Just didn't want you guys worried that I'd bowed out early or something. :D

[Impish]

Have you lived in a nation with socialist healthcare?

 

 

a

I live in Canada. And nobody here that I've ever heard of (and I worked in LTC, so have pretty broad knowledge, not just family anecdotes) gets warehoused to die. If a resident gets sent to the hospital, their plans are followed...ie DNR, or heroic measures. Equally. And they receive health care in the LTC as well...medications, therapies, dietary needs...

 

Now, I *have* heard of ppl being discouraged from surgery, etc, but that's got to do with someone being in their 90s, frail health, and the surgery would likely kill them rather than help anything.

 

I don't see how insurance cos that deny testing, treatments, etc is actually a BETTER solution. Here, we get what our drs say we need, period.

 

My nephew has had a heart surgery already. Been admitted for a bowel infection...at the top kids hospital in the country. Due for another surgery before he's 6 mths old, and heaven only knows how many as he grows. That's not including all the testing and treatments my sil went through during her pregnancy both for her Lupus, and to monitor her baby.

 

My brother is a cop. His wife works as well. Not financially affluent ppl. I can't imagine how hellish their lives would be having to worry about losing their home, going bankrupt, while worrying about losing their son.

[SailorMom]

My dh's boss warned him about staying with our private BC plan because they just became state employees. He wanted dh to go on the state plan. He knows of a good amount of people who, when they started having claims, BC raised their rates and kept raising them until they were unaffordable, as a way to "drop" them.

 

I think they have had them for about 6 years now - so far so good, but yeah - I don't know what BC/BS will do in the future.

I know her DH is in his mid-forties, and of course, this is a concern. I don't know if the rates will get much higher on him as he gets into his 50's. So - yes - this is a snapshot, of their situation at this time (well for 6 years).

[cdrumm4448]

I have to really question this. At least in Michigan, the cost of a policy like that would be THOUSANDS every month. So you're telling us that this family sacrifices everything to pay for the best healthcare possible? Why would they do that? Who is sick in that family?

 

We have a high deductible plan with a $2400 deductible. Our monthly premiums are only several hundred dollars. The company DH works for pays over $1,000 a month for our insurance. Maybe it is a similar scenario?

[Colleen in NS]

Yay Vermont!

 

I believe health care is a right.

 

Mama's 3 bean salad recipe!

 

 

 

Gee, you could put the leftovers in a food processor afterwards, and make BEAN DIP!

 

I don't want to be forced to pay for someone else's medical care either. I mean seriously, why should my family pay for *your* alcoholism induced liver disease?

 

Isn't this what an insurance plan does anyway, though? You can't tell your insurance company who to pay for and who not to pay for. But those who pay insurance premiums every month (quarter, year), you are paying for that body-abused sickness.

 

Under a socialized health system (which is what a universal health system is - don't kid yourself), you're golden. As long as you are able to continue contributing into the system. As long as you have a worker in your family.

 

This is not true in all countries with universal health care.

 

What is the government of the United States, if it is not the People?

 

:iagree:

[SailorMom]

We have a high deductible plan with a $2400 deductible. Our monthly premiums are only several hundred dollars. The company DH works for pays over $1,000 a month for our insurance. Maybe it is a similar scenario?

 

Well - no - no employer involved. But if you do the math - the plans are pretty similar. Also - this does not include dental or vision. She has some kind of dental discount card through her employer. They pay (I think) 50%....

 

Now - again, and I have said this before, the pre-existing medical condition issues are a big problem in this country, and that is sometimes why coverage can be so expensive. I don't know that there is a simple answer to that. I get this argument, and am glad that that one part of the healthcare bill was in there.

[cdrumm4448]

What is the government of the United States, if it is not the People?

 

Theoretically, you are correct. Actually, it is a group of political elites who make decisions for their sheeple based on what they think is best for them.

[nmoira]

This is from early in the thread, but I didn't notice its being addressed.

 

Bolding mine.

 

You had me until this. Take the profit out of insurance and say goodbye to medical research for cures. (You would also say goodbye to bribing doctors with vacations to Hawaii to persuade them to prescribe certain meds, but still.)

How is this? Can you tell me the precise mechanism by which you think insurance companies (profit or non-profit) fund medical research?

[Lady Florida.]

Rachel, you may find this difficult to believe, but I want my tax dollars to go to provide health care for you and others like you. I don't "know" you, but according to Jesus, you're my neighbor anyway. So, it's very important to me, when I go to sleep at night, knowing that the fruit of my labor is going to help others;

 

So, maybe it comes as a surprise to you, and you may not agree that I am sane for feeling this way. But, I want my money to go to you, even if you don't work. Even if you were a drug addict, or a lady who has 6 kids by 5 different fathers on Welfare. I WANT MY MONEY TO HELP YOU AND YOUR KIDS.

 

It's MY responsibility to see that that happens. I am a citizen of the U.S., and as such, I have a say in where my tax dollars go. I say they go to people like you. Because you're my neighbor, and that means I am responsible for you. I am your keeper, just as I like to think that you are mine.

 

:iagree: I have a very hard time understanding those who say, "Sorry, not my problem. I don't want my tax money to go towards solving your health issues". We are all human. I want to help my fellow humans. Sometimes that's difficult to do as an individual, so I'd like my taxes to help run programs that I can't run myself. Programs that help my fellow human beings, and more specifically my fellow countrymen.

[Colleen in NS]

Quick question - I really have no info on this -

Countries with socialized healthcare - any issues with illegal immigration? How is that handled?

I know here in the states it is a big issue....

 

When I first came to Canada, I was on a student visa; and at the time, students in Ontario were covered under the provincial health plan. Then I got married a little over a year later, moved to Canada (after a couple of months back in the States) with my husband, and could not be covered with my "visitor" status. My visitor status changed to work visa status, and then my immigrant status arrived a year after I got married. During that whole year, I could not be covered under provincial health care. I was not a legal immigrant yet, just a worker. So, technically, if you're not a landed immigrant or Canadian citizen, you don't get coverage (however, doctor visits/etc. are much cheaper to pay for out of pocket here)(my American mother needed a doctor when she was here a couple of years ago, and my doctor's receptionist quoted a fee of just $25. I was floored at how cheap that was, and my mother was blown away)(and then the doc decided not to charge her at all - we didn't ask - she just wanted to help a patient's visiting mother with a needed Rx)

[SailorMom]

I think a better way to phrase that is take away the profit from healthcare in general.

Pharmacuetical companies only really make money on a very small percentage - I think it is like 5% -of the meds they try out. Most don't make it past the FDA.

If they can't make a profit - why bother investing in new drugs?

As for insurance -I think we would lose choice in plans that fit our needs due to lack of competition.

Research for cures outside the pharmacuetical insudtry -well - funding comes from all over, and some of it is from insurance, but a lot is federal, or private. Private companies, if denied a profit by the government unwilling to pay enough for the company to makr a profit on their developments would quit trying to come up with new things. Again - a small percentage of what is tried actually makes it to the market - hence the high cost of the things that do make it.

[SailorMom]

When I first came to Canada, I was on a student visa; and at the time, students in Ontario were covered under the provincial health plan. Then I got married a little over a year later, moved to Canada (after a couple of months back in the States) with my husband, and could not be covered with my "visitor" status. My visitor status changed to work visa status, and then my immigrant status arrived a year after I got married. During that whole year, I could not be covered under provincial health care. I was not a legal immigrant yet, just a worker. So, technically, if you're not a landed immigrant or Canadian citizen, you don't get coverage (however, doctor visits/etc. are much cheaper to pay for out of pocket here)(my American mother needed a doctor when she was here a couple of years ago, and my doctor's receptionist quoted a fee of just $25. I was floored at how cheap that was, and my mother was blown away)(and then the doc decided not to charge her at all - we didn't ask - she just wanted to help a patient's visiting mother with a needed Rx)

 

Interresting...

Anyone here know all the details of the US system? I know a lot of illegal immigrants do get coverage - but not sure how the system actually works.

[MindyD]

I admit I've only gotten through the first 8 pages, but I said at the beginning that I believe healthcare is a privilege. I'm just going going to free-write my thoughts so I apologize if this is confusing or jumbled.

I think living in the society that we do, we've developed a skewed sense of what rights really are. We feel entitled to the best of everything from food to clothes to entertainment to healthcare. The United States is an incredibly and obscenely wealthy country. In an ideal society, we would use our wealth to help other people instead of spending so much on ourselves. We would choose to do without the newest game system, bigger house, or (fill in the blank) and instead help our neighbor. Speaking as a Christian, we are called to help the poor and needy, the widows and orphans. The church SHOULD be the one taking charge of this; however, we're not. We've let the government take over that responsibility. The church in general doesn't want the government to take up these responsibilities such as education or healthcare but the church isn't stepping up and helping either.

I don't know what the solution is. I haven't seen a shred of evidence that the government can do a better job than the mess we have right now, but something has to be done. Okay, I'm done now.:001_smile:

[KristinaBreece]

Now, you know I never said or implied that.

 

What I HAVE said is that we will always have people who need assistance. I've said it over and over and over again, but it is habitually ignored.

 

We all agree there should be a level of assistance, but we disagree as to how much or how far-reaching it should be.

 

I only asked because you said that if all people were valued by their work output, the government assistance statistic would drop to 0.

[Mrs Mungo]

This is from early in the thread, but I didn't notice its being addressed.

 

Bolding mine.

 

How is this? Can you tell me the precise mechanism by which you think insurance companies (profit or non-profit) fund medical research?

 

The CEOs will stop swimming in their money silos and donate money for that purpose instead?

 

And if you don't think the military benefits has anything to do with profit, check out this article.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[Carol in Cal.]

My dh's boss warned him about staying with our private BC plan because they just became state employees. He wanted dh to go on the state plan. He knows of a good amount of people who, when they started having claims, BC raised their rates and kept raising them until they were unaffordable, as a way to "drop" them.

 

Yes. This is common, and it's horrible. People lose their insurance right when they need it, after years of saying, "Well, this is affordable." And don't get me started on post-claims underwriting, which is illegal but seems to still happen. That one is even worse.

 

Furthermore, even if you stay in reasonably good health the annual costs rise exponentially with age after a certain point. Very few people really see this coming.

 

That's why group insurance is so ridiculously important, and since retirees don't really have access to it, that's why Medicare is so important.

[cathmom]

Yes. This is common, and it's horrible. People lose their insurance right when they need it, after years of saying, "Well, this is affordable." And don't get me started on post-claims underwriting, which is illegal but seems to still happen. That one is even worse.

 

Furthermore, even if you stay in reasonably good health the annual costs rise exponentially with age after a certain point. Very few people really see this coming.

 

That's why group insurance is so ridiculously important, and since retirees don't really have access to it, that's why Medicare is so important.

 

In our case, for right now we're staying with the private plan because dh was on the state plan before and could never afford to go to the dr. at all. It seriously sucked and I doubt it's gotten better. However, this year I turned 40 and have had several health issues and I can't imagine what our premium is going to be next January.

[Carol in Cal.]

There is no reasonable mechanism for supply and demand to work in health insurance, except for at a large group level. That is why we have good large group coverage and bad coverage everywhere else.

 

To elaborate: big employers negotiate from a position of reasonable strength with health insurance providers. In fact, some of the biggest self-fund insurance and just use the insurance companies to handle their claims. They can demand guaranteed coverage and group rates that are reasonable.

 

An individual or family can't do that negotiating, and when they shop around they are negotiating care just for the NEXT YEAR, not the foreseeable future -- something they rarely realize. They have no power at all, and at the end of the each year the insurers have a lot of freedom to raise rates or put them into a different rate category based on claims experience WITH THEM, not over a large number of people. So there is not as much of a shared risk scenerio as there is with big employers. Or with Medicare, as far as that goes.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Carol in Cal.

[Carol in Cal.]

In our case, for right now we're staying with the private plan because dh was on the state plan before and could never afford to go to the dr. at all. It seriously sucked and I doubt it's gotten better. However, this year I turned 40 and have had several health issues and I can't imagine what our premium is going to be next January.

 

You might want to check whether there is a waiting period for changing to the state plan--are pre-existing conditions covered right away when you change? You don't want to fall between the two of them.

[cathmom]

You might want to check whether there is a waiting period for changing to the state plan--are pre-existing conditions covered right away when you change? You don't want to fall between the two of them.

 

I think during the open enrollment period it's fine, but we'll check.

[cdrumm4448]

This is from early in the thread, but I didn't notice its being addressed.

 

Bolding mine.

 

How is this? Can you tell me the precise mechanism by which you think insurance companies (profit or non-profit) fund medical research?

 

My mistake. I was thinking of pharmaceutical companies.

[tntgoodwin]

Wow, I just read through the 20 pages that popped up since I went to bed last night...very interesting.

 

I think people's worldviews are really shown for what they are in threads like these.

 

To those who have mentioned it, yes, I chose to enlist in the military. I do get great benefits, including health care for me and my family. You are welcome to join as well, provided you meet the requirements.

You are welcome to try to get any job you like, for that matter. Many employers do offer benefits that include health care.

 

I still say none of this will be fixed unless the entire economic system is overhauled and people learn that Keynesian economics are not going to help us.

[cdrumm4448]

I only asked because you said that if all people were valued by their work output, the government assistance statistic would drop to 0.

 

What I meant was that if Americans didn't value those who cannot produce, we wouldn't be supporting them.

[KristinaBreece]

What I meant was that if Americans didn't value those who cannot produce, we wouldn't be supporting them.

 

I know. My point was that people are productive members of society and are still unable to make enough money to get by. The working poor is an ever-growing reality.

[Mom0012]

My dh said that Family A and Family B are completely equal under the American system. If they both had a devastating health crisis, Family A would wipe out their savings and their retirement and end up bankrupt. Family B would just be bankrupt sooner.

 

How so? My mom had breast cancer and then a blockage that led to open heart surgery, which I would consider to be two devastating health crisis. My parents had insurance, and while they did have to pay some, it certainly didn't effect the way they were living let alone wipe out their savings or retirement plans. Not even close. In this situation, Family B would easily be filing bankruptcy whereas my parents were barely touched by it financially, so they are not in the same boat at all.

 

Lisa

[cathmom]

How so? My mom had breast cancer and then a blockage that led to open heart surgery, which I would consider to be two devastating health crisis. My parents had insurance, and while they did have to pay some, it certainly didn't effect the way they were living let alone wipe out their savings or retirement plans. Not even close. In this situation, Family B would easily be filing bankruptcy whereas my parents were barely touched by it financially, so they are not in the same boat at all.

 

Lisa

 

Then they were very blessed. I have heard many stories that went the other way.

[Aelwydd]

Theoretically, you are correct. Actually, it is a group of political elites who make decisions for their sheeple based on what they think is best for them.

 

No. Actually, legally, morally, and realistically, I'm right. "Sheeple" is a pejorative you use to obfuscate and navigate around the truth. And that truth is, constitutionally we are a democratic Republic, and We The People elect our leaders into office.

 

The government isn't made up of androids sent over by some nefarious outside force or country to subvert our freedom. It's made up Real People , some of whom are male, some female, some conservative, some liberal, some Christian, some not. They have names like Tom Coburn and Gabby Giffords.

 

They are American citizens, and they wouldn't be governing unless they got the majority vote. Even if some of them got there with the shameless help of corporate dollars -- they still had to be VOTED in.

 

Whether you or I participate or not, we are still part of the government, because We Are The People. Governing officials don't elect themselves, nor is the office they hold inherited. I am part of that government, because I choose to fulfill my civic duty, and my religious duty, to exercise my power of choice for what will accomplish the most good.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Aelwydd