S/O Health care now a human right in Vermont

[Jennifer3141]

Single payer healthcare in America is just like social Secutiry and Medicare were at their beginnings. A vocal percentage of Americans scream, "It's not the government's job!" However, then they retire and run to Medicare as if their butts were on fire and happily wait for their social secutiry checks to start rolling in.

 

DH has been practicing medicine as an internist for 15 years now. In all that time and in all the different places we've been NEVER, not once, never happened; has a person on Medicare objected to the government paying the bill. For every older person (and their family!) on Medicare, they fundamentally believe it is now a right. No family member has EVER stepped forward and said, "Hey, can I pay for Mom's ventilator?"

 

Someday that vocal percentage will wake up and realize that the same level of care should be granted to 30 year old stay-at-home mothers. I think they are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming to it but so be it. As more and more Americans lose family members, friends, children, their homes, etc. etc. to healthcare crises, change will happen.

 

Of course good, decent healthcare is a right. How on earth are you supposed to "pursue happiness" if you're battling cancer without insurance and you have to decide between keeping your home from foreclosure or chemotherapy?

 

The idea that churches or charities should step up to the plate and provide financial coverage to people in medical crises is laughable. I guess you all better start going to those megachurches that are around because the little congregations with 100 or so people are not going to be able to fundraise $200,000 for ALS in a 40 year old or leukemia in a 10 year old. And the community? So those communities that are broke right now should just suck it up? I guess if you live in Detroit and you are a single mother with cancer, you should just drop dead because none of your neighbors are employed.

 

And I guess all us atheists and agnostics and pagans better join a church. How convienent... :D

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

You know, this triggers one of my pet peeves about the insanity that is our health care non-system. Entrepreneurship is severely stunted in this country by the tying of health care benefits to employment with large enough firms to offer guaranteed-issue coverage at reasonable rates. I know SO MANY PEOPLE who could reasonably start and run their own businesses if it weren't for the catastrophic downside risk of having no medical insurance, or of being dependent on completely undependable private coverage in that event. Retention rates in private corporations are hugely dependent on the availability of reasonably priced group medical insurance and the LACK of availability of reasonably priced, dependable individual or small group policies.

 

Bingo:D I have met plenty of people who want to start small companies who cannot due to lack of availability of affordable health insurance and chronic illness:(.

 

Our current system is killing job creation and causing age discrimination as well since many companies prefer healthier younger people who will not cause health care premiums to go up:glare: I have been reading of many instances of age discrimination of people in their 40s:001_huh:.

 

The affordable healthcare act will relieve some of these problems when it fully takes effect. I want to see the solution go a step further and have medicare for all since we already have the system in place.

Edited May 30, 2011 by priscilla

[Carol in Cal.]

You know, this triggers one of my pet peeves about the insanity that is our health care non-system. Entrepreneurship is severely stunted in this country by the tying of health care benefits to employment with large enough firms to offer guaranteed-issue coverage at reasonable rates. I know SO MANY PEOPLE who could reasonably start and run their own businesses if it weren't for the catastrophic downside risk of having no medical insurance, or of being dependent on completely undependable private coverage in that event. Retention rates in private corporations are hugely dependent on the availability of reasonably priced group medical insurance and the LACK of availability of reasonably priced, dependable individual or small group policies.

 

I didn't want to do this as an edit:

 

It follows, then, that those like me who are ardent capitalists, who believe that people should be freed up to start their own businesses, who think that individual inventiveness should have a systematic way of being rewarded, who believe that innovation has been one of the major foundations of America's success and should be again, who think that the term 'self-made man' (or woman) is noble and should be resurrected, and who believe that encouraging individual innovation and aspirations is key to American business and national revitalization, paradoxically enough, should also support some sort of reasonably available health care for everyone.

 

This doesn't mean that it is a 'right' but rather that it IS right.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Carol in Cal.

[cathmom]

We need to make the Bush tax cuts permanent. People with businesses and money provide jobs.

 

And what is the cost to the economy and job creation from people being shackled to jobs just to have health coverage?

 

I haven't been to an MD in over 25 years.... midwives for the birth of the 3 children. I haven't relied on any kind of materia medica for almost my whole life. My husband hasn't been to a doctor for nearly 40 years.

 

Our kids, born at home, have never been to a doctor/dentist/etc. We are all strong and healthy. We have had our challenges at times but have always relied on prayer and have always been healed with that alone.

 

Both our parents have never used health care, except for my Dad for a very short time...until they said they didn't know what was going on and my folks returned to prayer and the episodes ceased. My FIL is 82 and my Dad is 82. My Mom just passed on and was healthy as a horse up until the end a few months ago.

 

Why should I be forced to pay for health insurance that we will never use?

 

I am happy that you and your family are so healthy! I had never really been sick until this last year, when all of a sudden I developed plantar fasciitis, diverticulitis, two bulging disks, and have needed physical therapy for a long-standing issue. You don't know what the future holds. Accidents can happen even if you are healthy, and one accident can bankrupt you. We have friends who were in between health coverage for 3 weeks when their dd fell and broke her arm. The resulting bills forced them into bankruptcy.

 

You know, this triggers one of my pet peeves about the insanity that is our health care non-system. Entrepreneurship is severely stunted in this country by the tying of health care benefits to employment with large enough firms to offer guaranteed-issue coverage at reasonable rates. I know SO MANY PEOPLE who could reasonably start and run their own businesses if it weren't for the catastrophic downside risk of having no medical insurance, or of being dependent on completely undependable private coverage in that event. Retention rates in private corporations are hugely dependent on the availability of reasonably priced group medical insurance and the LACK of availability of reasonably priced, dependable individual or small group policies.

 

Exactly!

[catz]

Single payer healthcare in America is just like social Secutiry and Medicare were at their beginnings. A vocal percentage of Americans scream, "It's not the government's job!" However, then they retire and run to Medicare as if their butts were on fire and happily wait for their social secutiry checks to start rolling in.

 

And I guess all us atheists and agnostics and pagans better join a church. How convienent... :D

 

Jennifer - thank you for this. I agree with everything you wrote. Healthcare is definitely a right in my mind. If you hear whisperings of Medicare going away or even cut, everyone is up in arms.

 

I know a young man (30) with stage 4 melanoma right now who watched a mole grow and then lymph nodes grow for a year because he had no health care while he applied for jobs with health care. This is a man that spent a couple years in Africa helping people with Aids and had to take odd jobs to survive when he came back to the states. Had me been able to get in immediately with a doctor, he'd be done with treatment and back at his life rather than suffering through a couple years of treatment that isn't likely to hold it at bay for long. I'm not saying this young was wise in waiting, because he clearly wasn't. But he had a young kid's attitude about his health and played roulette and lost. It's sad he'll likely need to pay with his life for a mistake make at age 27.

 

I also agree that the current system hurts entrepreneurs. You have to be independently wealthy to even consider starting a business these days.

[Mejane]

Single payer healthcare in America is just like social Secutiry and Medicare were at their beginnings. A vocal percentage of Americans scream, "It's not the government's job!" However, then they retire and run to Medicare as if their butts were on fire and happily wait for their social secutiry checks to start rolling in.

 

 

 

 

 

I get your point, but since people are required to pay into those funds all their working life, they should reap some benefits when they're due. Now if there was choice about paying in, I'd agree they should put their money where their mouth is.

[KristinaBreece]

I'm not saying this young was wise in waiting, because he clearly wasn't. But he had a young kid's attitude about his health and played roulette and lost. It's sad he'll likely need to pay with his life for a mistake make at age 27.

 

I also agree that the current system hurts entrepreneurs. You have to be independently wealthy to even consider starting a business these days.

 

Not even a mistake, though, really. Because, had he gone to the doctor & been diagnosed, when he did get insurance, it would have been denied as a pre-existing condition. I would agree it's like playing roulette... but in a casino where the end result is fixed & the house wins Every. Single. Time.

[Mejane]

Sorry, but yes, in many areas these things are privatized.

 

Or should be... education namely, because we all know how government has royally bolluxed up that. Really, why should healthcare be any different?

[Jen500]

I haven't read all the responses...and this may have been answered...but what about Christian Scientists and others that would rather opt out of health care.

 

I haven't been to an MD in over 25 years.... midwives for the birth of the 3 children. I haven't relied on any kind of materia medica for almost my whole life. My husband hasn't been to a doctor for nearly 40 years.

 

Our kids, born at home, have never been to a doctor/dentist/etc. We are all strong and healthy. We have had our challenges at times but have always relied on prayer and have always been healed with that alone.

 

Both our parents have never used health care, except for my Dad for a very short time...until they said they didn't know what was going on and my folks returned to prayer and the episodes ceased. My FIL is 82 and my Dad is 82. My Mom just passed on and was healthy as a horse up until the end a few months ago.

 

Why should I be forced to pay for health insurance that we will never use?

 

It's great that your family has been so healthy.

But what if one of your children marries someone who doesn't have super healthy genetics? What if your grandchild is born a premie, or develops diabetes or asthma or any number of problems? What if you are in a car accident resulting in ongoing medical care?

[KristinaBreece]

It's great that your family has been so healthy.

But what if one of your children marries someone who doesn't have super healthy genetics? What if your grandchild is born a premie, or develops diabetes or asthma or any number of problems? What if you are in a car accident resulting in ongoing medical care?

 

It won't matter to her-- the point she's making is that her family will not use healthcare even if it IS available because it's against their belief system.

[Carol in Cal.]

I would agree it's like playing roulette... but in a casino where the end result is fixed & the house wins Every. Single. Time.

 

Exactly.

[InterestingCase]

We live in a country where the top 10 CEOs made about 350 million dollars just last year. If they can average 35 million dollars in pay and bonuses, the wealth can be found to provide basic healthcare for our citizens. If they cut back and say, only received 10 million a year, how many kids could they help? Their wealth is built on the education and infrastructure of this country.

[goldberry]

Not looking, not looking, not looking....

 

Healthcare is a right.

 

Not looking, exiting.....

[Pam Wilhelm]

It won't matter to her-- the point she's making is that her family will not use healthcare even if it IS available because it's against their belief system.

 

Thank you.... kind of. LOL It will matter to us but we do rely on a different form of healthcare and healings of all the mentioned illnesses/accidents have been well documented and I am confident that if I am faced with something that I will be able to handle it with prayer. If medical assistance is needed then that challenge will be met as well.

 

While I stated that my family is healthy...we have still had our challenges. Broken bones, heart issues, diabetes, abscessed teeth, etc. have all been met with prayer alone by my immediate family. I won't even get into unemployment/finances/housing/child bearing/marriage challenges/etc.

 

Even if forced, against our will, to buy into the healthcare system....we will not utilize it.

[Jen500]

It won't matter to her-- the point she's making is that her family will not use healthcare even if it IS available because it's against their belief system.

 

oh, I guess I missed that point. She didn't specifically say that. Thanks.

[KristinaBreece]

Thank you.... kind of. LOL It will matter to us but we do rely on a different form of healthcare and healings of all the mentioned illnesses/accidents have been well documented and I am confident that if I am faced with something that I will be able to handle it with prayer. If medical assistance is needed then that challenge will be met as well.

 

While I stated that my family is healthy...we have still had our challenges. Broken bones, heart issues, diabetes, abscessed teeth, etc. have all been met with prayer alone by my immediate family. I won't even get into unemployment/finances/housing/child bearing/marriage challenges/etc.

 

Even if forced, against our will, to buy into the healthcare system....we will not utilize it.

 

Oh! I didn't mean that you won't CARE about X, Y, or Z happening to your family. :grouphug: Just that it won't affect the way you look at medical care. I fully respect your decision to not use medical intervention & to rely on prayer... I look at that kind of like people who choose to homeschool but still have to pay their school district tax. :tongue_smilie:

 

oh, I guess I missed that point. She didn't specifically say that. Thanks.

 

I guess she didn't say it straight out, I just inferred it from the beginning of her post:

 

...what about Christian Scientists and others that would rather opt out of health care.....

[Negin]

Not looking, not looking, not looking....

 

Healthcare is a right.

 

Not looking, exiting.....

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

This topic is way, way too emotional for me. :leaving:

[cdrumm4448]

You know, this triggers one of my pet peeves about the insanity that is our health care non-system. Entrepreneurship is severely stunted in this country by the tying of health care benefits to employment with large enough firms to offer guaranteed-issue coverage at reasonable rates. I know SO MANY PEOPLE who could reasonably start and run their own businesses if it weren't for the catastrophic downside risk of having no medical insurance, or of being dependent on completely undependable private coverage in that event. Retention rates in private corporations are hugely dependent on the availability of reasonably priced group medical insurance and the LACK of availability of reasonably priced, dependable individual or small group policies.

 

I agree with you. I don't think healthcare should be entirely tired to employment. We should all have the option of choosing from reasonably priced plans offered in other states.

[asta]

Single payer healthcare in America is just like social Secutiry and Medicare were at their beginnings. A vocal percentage of Americans scream, "It's not the government's job!" However, then they retire and run to Medicare as if their butts were on fire and happily wait for their social secutiry checks to start rolling in.

 

DH has been practicing medicine as an internist for 15 years now. In all that time and in all the different places we've been NEVER, not once, never happened; has a person on Medicare objected to the government paying the bill. For every older person (and their family!) on Medicare, they fundamentally believe it is now a right. No family member has EVER stepped forward and said, "Hey, can I pay for Mom's ventilator?"

 

Someday that vocal percentage will wake up and realize that the same level of care should be granted to 30 year old stay-at-home mothers. I think they are going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming to it but so be it. As more and more Americans lose family members, friends, children, their homes, etc. etc. to healthcare crises, change will happen.

 

Of course good, decent healthcare is a right. How on earth are you supposed to "pursue happiness" if you're battling cancer without insurance and you have to decide between keeping your home from foreclosure or chemotherapy?

 

The idea that churches or charities should step up to the plate and provide financial coverage to people in medical crises is laughable. I guess you all better start going to those megachurches that are around because the little congregations with 100 or so people are not going to be able to fundraise $200,000 for ALS in a 40 year old or leukemia in a 10 year old. And the community? So those communities that are broke right now should just suck it up? I guess if you live in Detroit and you are a single mother with cancer, you should just drop dead because none of your neighbors are employed.

 

And I guess all us atheists and agnostics and pagans better join a church. How convienent... :D

 

This reminds me of a story...

 

I know an older woman who lives in Germany who has Multiple Sclerosis. While she was working (first for the German government, then for a private firm), she had "top tier" private insurance and was seen by all of the top doctors. When she "aged out" of the system, she was placed on the German equivalent of Medicare (I have no idea what they call it).

 

She relayed to me once that she was sitting in a waiting room and saw one of her old doctors ( - literally, old - he had been her doctor for over 20 years - ) and tried to engage him in a friendly chat. But she was on the "medicare" list (and he knew it), not the "private insurance" list... and he just kept walking.

 

She told me that she volunteers anywhere she can, just to keep herself busy, because if she stops moving, she's dead (she's quite ill). "Dead?" I said to her? Oh yes, she replied, I'm of no use to a socialist state; I no longer contribute to the state as a worker, and as someone who is ill, I am a continual drain on the system. If I cannot take care of myself, I have only two options: the first is for my church to take me in to one of their "homes" (which, in her case, would likely happen, as she is a volunteer canon lawyer), or go to a state home to die.

 

WHAT???

 

Um, you mean to a "nursing home", right?

 

No, we don't have those like they do in America. In Germany, you just go to a room with a bed. You're fed, you're bathed. Eventually, you'll die there. You're no good to the state if you're not contributing.

 

------------

 

 

Now, this is a woman who is almost 70 years old. Her memories of WWII are fuzzy, but she remembers the aftermath quite well enough. She is very proud of her country, and its ability to take care of its citizens (in general). Yet, she finds herself elderly and sick. And with a contradiction: she has worked her entire life to build her nation, and now they have no use for her. Worse, they make no bones about telling her that she is simply 'not needed', is 'in the way'. (her words, not mine)

 

Further, she wonders what will happen to all of the immigrants whose religious centers are not establishing "old age homes", to all of the people who are not 'attached' to religion at all -- the state has no "safety net" in place for such people. It weighs on her.

 

 

----------------

 

I relay this story because, in America, "healthcare for all" sounds lovely. I mean, why not? Canada, the UK, and Western Europe can't be wrong, can they? Only America isn't any of those places. America is huge. W. Europe fits into Texas. (think about that one a second)

 

There is a certain social contract that is made between a people and their government for, well, everything. In Europe, for guaranteed medical, that means higher taxes (40% of income minimally), longer waits (from weeks to months), fewer choices of physicians and/or caregivers, and the reality that, at some point, a person WILL be told that whatever is wrong with them is not worth the cost of the care.

 

And yes, that is an uncomfortable thing to think about.

 

Look around this board. There are many, many people here who have serious health issues in their families. Under a socialized health system (which is what a universal health system is - don't kid yourself), you're golden. As long as you are able to continue contributing into the system. As long as you have a worker in your family. Because it's all about The State. When that worker is unable to do so? It's not so pretty.

 

In America, you can have whatever you can pay for. That isn't the case everywhere you go. At least not legally.

 

 

a

[cdrumm4448]

I get your point, but since people are required to pay into those funds all their working life, they should reap some benefits when they're due. Now if there was choice about paying in, I'd agree they should put their money where their mouth is.

 

:iagree:

 

If we had the choice, we would stop paying into Social Security and Medicare today. They can keep what I've already given them, but cut me loose. We want nothing from the government in the way of SS or MC benefits. We are NOT the only people who feel this way. Only, we have never had a choice.

[Whitworth]

The U.S.A will not have universal single payer health care in my lifetime. That's one of the reasons we will be moving to Canada.

 

The cooperations will fight against it tooth and nail. There are far too many citizens with a self-sufficient libertarian mindset. I'm not criticizing the philosophy; it is what it is. It's just not for me.

 

I want my taxes to help the less fortunate; indeed, everyone. I want pension programs/social security for the aged/disabled. I want my taxes to help the poor, the addict and the severely ill. I want my taxes to support education through the university level for all citizens. Far too much money is spend on maintaining over 1000 military bases and foreign wars in the guise of American business interest. I would rather that money be spent on those who actually serve. I wish every soldier could have his/her salary doubled and every VA hospital made into truly modern medical facilities. There you have my socialist side.

 

Moving to Canada will also benefit my family financially. There you have my capitalist side. My wife and work in social service/health/education. Those fields pay better in Canada. University will not be a crippling expense. I will rest easy in knowing that I will not go bankrupt due to health care expenses. I can also rest easy knowing that my neighbor will not either.

 

I'm pro-life; from birth to death. We will be moving to Canada because we believe in Canadian values.

[Mynyel]

The only problem I have is who is going to pay for it.

 

I don't have medical insurance, and whether or not I can afford it is irrelevant.

 

Why should I expect others to pay for me? If that is the case then are they going to expent me to exercise 20 mins a day every other day, take my vitamins every day and eat my veggies 5 times a day? When does it stop? What will be next? You can't afford healthcare so you can't have kids. Call me a conspiracy theorist, call me whatever you want but give an inch and they take a mile.

 

How can they just pay for healthcare for someone who doesn't give a **** about taking care of themselves? For instance to smoker who has emphysema yet they still smoke or the diabetic that doesn't watch their diet? What about the alcoholic that needs a liver transplant but refuses to stop drinking? (Yes I know there are a lot of what if's but I am giving examples here) Should that really be paid for by other people who do take care of themselves?

 

I would hate knowing that when I went to the Dr. for my kidney stones that perhaps, if I couldn't afford it, someone else is going to pay it for me. Why should they.

 

Sure people should have access to healthcare but to make it a law that others have to pay for my healthcare is ludicrous IMO.

[Aelwydd]

This reminds me of a story...

 

I know an older woman who lives in Germany who has Multiple Sclerosis. While she was working (first for the German government, then for a private firm), she had "top tier" private insurance and was seen by all of the top doctors. When she "aged out" of the system, she was placed on the German equivalent of Medicare (I have no idea what they call it).

 

She relayed to me once that she was sitting in a waiting room and saw one of her old doctors ( - literally, old - he had been her doctor for over 20 years - ) and tried to engage him in a friendly chat. But she was on the "medicare" list (and he knew it), not the "private insurance" list... and he just kept walking.

 

She told me that she volunteers anywhere she can, just to keep herself busy, because if she stops moving, she's dead (she's quite ill). "Dead?" I said to her? Oh yes, she replied, I'm of no use to a socialist state; I no longer contribute to the state as a worker, and as someone who is ill, I am a continual drain on the system. If I cannot take care of myself, I have only two options: the first is for my church to take me in to one of their "homes" (which, in her case, would likely happen, as she is a volunteer canon lawyer), or go to a state home to die.

 

WHAT???

 

Um, you mean to a "nursing home", right?

 

No, we don't have those like they do in America. In Germany, you just go to a room with a bed. You're fed, you're bathed. Eventually, you'll die there. You're no good to the state if you're not contributing.

 

------------

 

 

Now, this is a woman who is almost 70 years old. Her memories of WWII are fuzzy, but she remembers the aftermath quite well enough. She is very proud of her country, and its ability to take care of its citizens (in general). Yet, she finds herself elderly and sick. And with a contradiction: she has worked her entire life to build her nation, and now they have no use for her. Worse, they make no bones about telling her that she is simply 'not needed', is 'in the way'. (her words, not mine)

 

Further, she wonders what will happen to all of the immigrants whose religious centers are not establishing "old age homes", to all of the people who are not 'attached' to religion at all -- the state has no "safety net" in place for such people. It weighs on her.

 

 

----------------

 

I relay this story because, in America, "healthcare for all" sounds lovely. I mean, why not? Canada, the UK, and Western Europe can't be wrong, can they? Only America isn't any of those places. America is huge. W. Europe fits into Texas. (think about that one a second)

 

There is a certain social contract that is made between a people and their government for, well, everything. In Europe, for guaranteed medical, that means higher taxes (40% of income minimally), longer waits (from weeks to months), fewer choices of physicians and/or caregivers, and the reality that, at some point, a person WILL be told that whatever is wrong with them is not worth the cost of the care.

 

And yes, that is an uncomfortable thing to think about.

 

Look around this board. There are many, many people here who have serious health issues in their families. Under a socialized health system (which is what a universal health system is - don't kid yourself), you're golden. As long as you are able to continue contributing into the system. As long as you have a worker in your family. Because it's all about The State. When that worker is unable to do so? It's not so pretty.

 

In America, you can have whatever you can pay for. That isn't the case everywhere you go. At least not legally.

 

 

a

 

Asta, the problem with your view is that in capitalism, you are only valued for your work no matter what your age. Literally. You deserve food, health care, shelter, etc., only if you can pay for it. Your life has a dollar sign attached to it by the insurance companies that decide whether they will honor your claim.

 

 

If you can't work, or if your parents can't work, or even if they do work, but their workplace doesn't provide insurance, you are SOL.

[Aelwydd]

The only problem I have is who is going to pay for it.

 

I don't have medical insurance, and whether or not I can afford it is irrelevant.

 

Why should I expect others to pay for me? If that is the case then are they going to expent me to exercise 20 mins a day every other day, take my vitamins every day and eat my veggies 5 times a day? When does it stop? What will be next? You can't afford healthcare so you can't have kids. Call me a conspiracy theorist, call me whatever you want but give an inch and they take a mile.

 

How can they just pay for healthcare for someone who doesn't give a **** about taking care of themselves? For instance to smoker who has emphysema yet they still smoke or the diabetic that doesn't watch their diet? What about the alcoholic that needs a liver transplant but refuses to stop drinking? (Yes I know there are a lot of what if's but I am giving examples here) Should that really be paid for by other people who do take care of themselves?

 

I would hate knowing that when I went to the Dr. for my kidney stones that perhaps, if I couldn't afford it, someone else is going to pay it for me. Why should they.

 

Sure people should have access to healthcare but to make it a law that others have to pay for my healthcare is ludicrous IMO.

 

Rachel, you may find this difficult to believe, but I want my tax dollars to go to provide health care for you and others like you. I don't "know" you, but according to Jesus, you're my neighbor anyway. So, it's very important to me, when I go to sleep at night, knowing that the fruit of my labor is going to help others; it saddens me that much of the time, it's actually going to fund wars that have been initiated in order for corporations to procure access to more resources. So they produce more stuff. And CEOs can become richer.

 

So, maybe it comes as a surprise to you, and you may not agree that I am sane for feeling this way. But, I want my money to go to you, even if you don't work. Even if you were a drug addict, or a lady who has 6 kids by 5 different fathers on Welfare. I WANT MY MONEY TO HELP YOU AND YOUR KIDS.

 

It's MY responsibility to see that that happens. I am a citizen of the U.S., and as such, I have a say in where my tax dollars go. I say they go to people like you. Because you're my neighbor, and that means I am responsible for you. I am your keeper, just as I like to think that you are mine.

[cdrumm4448]

Asta, the problem with your view is that in capitalism, you are only valued for your work no matter what your age. Literally. You deserve food, health care, shelter, etc., only if you can pay for it. Your life has a dollar sign attached to it by the insurance companies that decide whether they will honor your claim.

 

 

If you can't work, or if your parents can't work, or even if they do work, but their workplace doesn't provide insurance, you are SOL.

 

If in America we are only valued for our work, why are half of us paying for some type of government assistance to the other half? If that were really true, that percentage would be 0.

[cdrumm4448]

Rachel, you may find this difficult to believe, but I want my tax dollars to go to provide health care for you and others like you. I don't "know" you, but according to Jesus, you're my neighbor anyway. So, it's very important to me, when I go to sleep at night, knowing that the fruit of my labor is going to help others; it saddens me that much of the time, it's actually going to fund wars that have been initiated in order for corporations to procure access to more resources. So they produce more stuff. And CEO can become richer.

 

So, maybe it comes as a surprise to you, and you may not agree that I am sane for feeling this way. But, I want my money to go to you, even if you don't work. Even if you were a drug addict, or a lady who has 6 kids by 5 different fathers on Welfare. I WANT MY MONEY TO HELP YOU AND YOUR KIDS.

 

It's MY responsibility to see that that happens. I am a citizen of the U.S., and as such, I have a say in where my tax dollars go. I say they go to people like you. Because you're my neighbor, and I give a ****.

 

That is incredibly admirable. The only problem is that the government cannot require that same position from everyone. You are responsible for only you and your actions. You could also give away a majority of your income and decide where it goes, instead of giving it to the government so they can decide.

[Aggie]

 

I want my taxes to help the less fortunate; indeed, everyone. I want pension programs/social security for the aged/disabled. I want my taxes to help the poor, the addict and the severely ill. I want my taxes to support education through the university level for all citizens. Far too much money is spend on maintaining over 1000 military bases and foreign wars in the guise of American business interest. I would rather that money be spent on those who actually serve. I wish every soldier could have his/her salary doubled and every VA hospital made into truly modern medical facilities. There you have my socialist side.

 

Moving to Canada will also benefit my family financially. There you have my capitalist side. My wife and work in social service/health/education. Those fields pay better in Canada. University will not be a crippling expense. I will rest easy in knowing that I will not go bankrupt due to health care expenses. I can also rest easy knowing that my neighbor will not either.

 

I'm pro-life; from birth to death. We will be moving to Canada because we believe in Canadian values.

 

When I want my money to help others, I give it to organizations that are run efficiently and by my standards. When they are no longer run efficiently, I can take my money and give it to individuals or other charity organizations.

 

Do you pay extra taxes? Above and beyond what is mandatory? You can donate to the IRS, you know. :001_smile: Or do you donate to private charitable causes such as the Red Cross, American Cancer Society, or St Jude's? (Rhetorical questions, of course. :001_smile:)

 

So does Canada not support abortions with tax money? Just asking because of your pro-life comment.

[Carol in Cal.]

I agree with you. I don't think healthcare should be entirely tired to employment. We should all have the option of choosing from reasonably priced plans offered in other states.

 

Nothing but government regulation will keep plans 'reasonably priced.'

 

And right now it is the plethora of state insurance commissions that is the bastion of consumer rights against price gouging and offering insurance only to the healthy and cancelling insurance on the sick. Eliminating the state insurance commissions to replace them with a national one will give the insurance companies one and only one target, and will reduce innovation in consumer-friendly solutions. It's deceptively packaged as a choice issue, which is most certainly is not.

[Aelwydd]

If in America we are only valued for our work, why are half of us paying for some type of government assistance to the other half? If that were really true, that percentage would be 0.

 

Because there are enough of us that resist the people = commodity ideal to demand that we have SOMETHING in place. And what assistance IS available is constantly under attack by those who want the U.S. to become nothing more than a corporate-run state.

 

Ergo, the attack on Medicare. The attacks on "welfare queens" in the 90's. The attacks on jobless benefits. The attacks on education.

 

You didn't think these were unrelated did you? They are not. They are part of a systematic assault on anything even remotely socialized in this country, in order to force people in these segments of society to either pay for private options, rely upon charity, or , I guess, die in a ditch somewhere.

[SailorMom]

I would just like to give two examples of two families i know personally here in the states. These are good representative examples of many other families I know, but I use these two because the differences in details would take to long to explain if I tried to give many examples. These two families also happpen to make the same amount of money, live within 50 miles of each other, and are similar ages. Both are eligible for healthcare, no pre-existing issues, and would have similar costs involved. Both the man and woman in both families works.

 

Family A: No vacations, cheap low-minutes,no-data plan phone, 10 year old TV, used car, no eating out, no going out to movies, shops at a discount store, rarely buys new clothes - and those are very inexpensive, frugal all around, pay into thier reitement fund privately, and have purchased healthcare insurance privately

 

Family B: Vacation twice or three times a year (cruises, trips to other countries, month long holidays), new phones with data plans, new cars, eat out a few times a week, always see new movies as they come out, no retirement fund, clothes whenever they want them, grocery shop wherever is convininet..... no healthcare.... they say emphatically that they can't afford it and that healthcare is too expensive in the US.

 

Now - I realize there are thousands, if not millions of people who TRULY can't affor dhealthcare, and I am so glad we have some safety nets here. My SiL is an example, and she has had excellent care, and I am glad my taxes assure that she has had good care. Food stamps, WIC, Medicare, Medicaid - I know people need these. But almost all - I would say 90% -of the people I personally know who say they can't afford healthcare manage to afford far more. For many people it is a choice.

 

I don't presume to know anything about the finances or personal choices of anyone on this board, and this is NOT directed at anyone here. I wouldn't do that - so don't come back at me with that. I am simply giving you the examples I know of first hand to show one reason why I don't support government run healthcare (outside of what we already have).

Edited May 30, 2011 by SailorMom

[AnnaM]

I relay this story because, in America, "healthcare for all" sounds lovely. I mean, why not? Canada, the UK, and Western Europe can't be wrong, can they? Only America isn't any of those places. America is huge. W. Europe fits into Texas. (think about that one a second)

 

There is a certain social contract that is made between a people and their government for, well, everything. In Europe, for guaranteed medical, that means higher taxes (40% of income minimally), longer waits (from weeks to months), fewer choices of physicians and/or caregivers, and the reality that, at some point, a person WILL be told that whatever is wrong with them is not worth the cost of the care.

 

And yes, that is an uncomfortable thing to think about.

 

Look around this board. There are many, many people here who have serious health issues in their families. Under a socialized health system (which is what a universal health system is - don't kid yourself), you're golden. As long as you are able to continue contributing into the system. As long as you have a worker in your family. Because it's all about The State. When that worker is unable to do so? It's not so pretty.

 

 

 

This is oh so true. My husband is British so I have seen quite a bit of what National Heathcare does. Think of children with Down's syndrome being told that because they can't be contributing members that they can not have the heart opperation they need(this young lady was fortunately able to come to the US for her treatments). Husband's who need kidney transplants and are on a list 20+ years long, of families struggling with infertility who are on a 10+ year waiting list. Even something as simple as having a cyst removed (my husband) was a 5+ year wait. This carries over into EVERYTHING in their health care system. I have not met a single person in England who has not told me horror stories about what NHS really is (including my SIL who is a nurse in a pediatric oncology ward).

[Whitworth]

When I want my money to help others, I give it to organizations that are run efficiently and by my standards. When they are no longer run efficiently, I can take my money and give it to individuals or other charity organizations.

 

Do you pay extra taxes? Above and beyond what is mandatory? You can donate to the IRS, you know. :001_smile: Or do you donate to private charitable causes such as the Red Cross, American Cancer Society, or St Jude's? (Rhetorical questions, of course. :001_smile:)

 

So does Canada not support abortions with tax money? Just asking because of your pro-life comment.

 

We give to charity and it is a joy to do so. I'm employed in social service helping the disabled and the disadvantaged. I feel that I am fortunate to assist in filling these needs.

 

As for donating to the IRS, that would be a good idea actually. If that money could be earmarked for the poor and needy, I'm all for it.

 

Yes I am pro-life. For me that also means I support food, clothing, housing and health care for all people. I believe in visiting the prisoner not killing him.

[Aelwydd]

That is incredibly admirable. The only problem is that the government cannot require that same position from everyone. You are responsible for only you and your actions. You could also give away a majority of your income and decide where it goes, instead of giving it to the government so they can decide.

 

Except, with the government dispensing it, I don't have to worry that it's only going to people who of a specific religion, or gender, or political persuasion. Charities are dependent upon the whims of those who contribute, and they also are not beholden to help every people in every situation.

 

John (Whitworth) and I do and have donated to charities, because they serve a function of filling in the gaps. But, they cannot build bridges or span the gulf of a whole society the way that government services do. Just look at some of the posts on this thread, by people who have tremendous medical needs. There is no charity that can meet those kinds of needs.

 

Furthermore, because I believe that government is BY the people and FOR the people, I also believe that there is no more appropriate use for the government than to serve in this capacity, and protect the greatest asset this nation has -- its citizens. And that means making sure they don't all die from preventable, curable diseases, and incur huge personal debts that straddle them, and keep them competing with other societies.

 

Pardon me if I believe that the burden is easier to carry if everyone contributes via taxes; I don't take the moral "high" road of encouraging most people to keep their money to themselves and their own interests, while extolling the saintly few who give up most of their earnings to help the unfortunate.

[cathmom]

This is oh so true. My husband is British so I have seen quite a bit of what National Heathcare does. Think of children with Down's syndrome being told that because they can't be contributing members that they can not have the heart opperation they need(this young lady was fortunately able to come to the US for her treatments). Husband's who need kidney transplants and are on a list 20+ years long, of families struggling with infertility who are on a 10+ year waiting list. Even something as simple as having a cyst removed (my husband) was a 5+ year wait. This carries over into EVERYTHING in their health care system. I have not met a single person in England who has not told me horror stories about what NHS really is (including my SIL who is a nurse in a pediatric oncology ward).

 

But have they ever worried that medical bills will bankrupt them? Have they ever been tied to a job they hate because of the insurance? Have they laid awake night wondering how on earth they can pay their insurance premiums? Have they wrestled with whether it's better for the dh to take the job's insurance and take the risk that he won't be able to get back on the wife's private plan should he lose the job just to save $100 bucks a month, if that?

 

It's not all sunshine and roses over here either.

[kchara]

 

You didn't think these were unrelated did you? They are not. They are part of a systematic assault on anything even remotely socialized in this country, in order to force people in these segments of society to either pay for private options, rely upon charity, or , I guess, die in a ditch somewhere.

 

Or, it's trying to force them to get a job. I have no problem paying into welfare situations for people who legitimately cannot work. I have a neighbor that is a single mom on disability and food stamps. She absolutely needs it, she cannot work. She has a rare, chronic disease that prevents it. SHE is what the welfare programs should be for.

 

I do, however, have a problem paying for people's poor choices or simple lack of initiative and ambition. I know a woman who was a professional with a large shortage of jobs (she's an RN) who lived off of unemployment for almost 3 years, simply because she could. That's bull. THAT'S what people have a problem paying for.

 

And of course there will be similar abuses in a universal health care system. I shouldn't have to pay for people to live because said people refuse to get a job. Similarly, I shouldn't have to pay for people who decide to abuse the health care system or their bodies, or both.

[SailorMom]

This is oh so true. My husband is British so I have seen quite a bit of what National Heathcare does. Think of children with Down's syndrome being told that because they can't be contributing members that they can not have the heart opperation they need(this young lady was fortunately able to come to the US for her treatments). Husband's who need kidney transplants and are on a list 20+ years long, of families struggling with infertility who are on a 10+ year waiting list. Even something as simple as having a cyst removed (my husband) was a 5+ year wait. This carries over into EVERYTHING in their health care system. I have not met a single person in England who has not told me horror stories about what NHS really is (including my SIL who is a nurse in a pediatric oncology ward).

 

 

This.

[Jennifer3141]

Family B: Vacation twice or three times a year (cruises, trips to other countries, month long holidays), new phones with data plans, new cards, eat out a few times a week, always see new movies as they come out, no retirement fund, clothes whenever they want them, grocery shop wherever is convininet..... no healthcare.... they say emphatically that they can't afford it and that healthcare is too expensive in the US.

 

I don't presume to know anything about the finances or personal choices of anyone on this board, and this is NOT directed at anyone here. I wouldn't do that - so don't come back at me with that. I am simply giving you the examples I know of first hand to show why I don't support government run healthcare (outside of what we already have).

 

Well Family B is comprised of IDIOTS. What do you want us to tell you? Statistically, they will need some sort of care at some point in time. Hopefully for them, in this system they will make to Medicare.

 

So when something happens to family B, say the mom gets cancer or the dad falls while trimming a tree and breaking his back... You want to do what? Tell them, "Suck it? Too bad?" Are we going to stop taking care of the idiots in the US? Well, no offense but I've seen a few people here on this board who are going to have to go without healthcare then. Not to mention giant swaths of people should just be wiped out I guess. And what's our criteria going to be? Reality TV fans? People who work at Taco Bell? How about people who cigarette butts out the car window? Those people MUST be idiots!

 

And if Family B happens to be your sister's family, are you going to be ok with watching her die? What if you're Family B? What if Family B is entrepreneurial and employs 30 people? So when Family B's business owner dies, we tell the employees what? The same, "Suck it. Too bad," we told the original family?

 

That's the other thing I don't think people really get about healthcare - the cascade effect. How do you feel secure in life watching a young friend die from a dumb infection? How do you grow up happy when your father dies from something we could have fixed but didn't?

 

And everyone wants coverage when it's their spouse or brother or neighbor. But that anonymous "welfare" mother in San Diego? She shouldn't have made bad choices! :glare:

Edited May 30, 2011 by Jennifer3141

[asta]

Umm, I realize that. I thought it a bit odd that tntgoodwin was saying healthcare is a privilege and the gov't should not pay, yet he himself has the taxpayers paying for his family's healthcare. Is his family more worthy of it than my family or the family at the homeless shelter? I just didn't understand his version of privilege.BTW, my dh was also a state gov't employee, yet they did not pay for family members. And like Mrs Mungo said, getting health benefits is a big reason so many remain in the armed forces.

 

<caveat: did not read the whole thread, so am most likely stepping into a minefield here>

 

Because, if I understand that quote correctly, tntgoodwin is in the military?

 

The job of the military is to be willing to die for a living. In recompense, they (and their families) are offered healthcare while alive.

 

Sounds really awful when you write it out, doesn't it?

 

 

a

[Aelwydd]

Or, it's trying to force them to get a job. I have no problem paying into welfare situations for people who legitimately cannot work. I have a neighbor that is a single mom on disability and food stamps. She absolutely needs it, she cannot work. She has a rare, chronic disease that prevents it. SHE is what the welfare programs should be for.

 

I do, however, have a problem paying for people's poor choices or simple lack of initiative and ambition. I know a woman who was a professional with a large shortage of jobs (she's an RN) who lived off of unemployment for almost 3 years, simply because she could. That's bull. THAT'S what people have a problem paying for.

 

And of course there will be similar abuses in a universal health care system. I shouldn't have to pay for people to live because said people refuse to get a job. Similarly, I shouldn't have to pay for people who decide to abuse the health care system or their bodies, or both.

 

Ok, so you don't want to pay for others who make poor choices. I understand that, but I feel differently.

 

Again, my viewpoint is not going to be popular, especially since it is based on Christianity. I believe, like Jesus said, that the poor are blessed, not cursed. I believe it is a privilege to be able to work and help others who either can't, or won't. I'm not interested in forcing others to do work; of course, there are always people who have some flaw that makes them unattractive, in terms of choosing who to help. Laziness is but one flaw. There is also disease (mental and physical), mental impairment, drug addiction, and many others.

 

We always need more workers. That's always been the case, as Jesus said, the fields are ready to be harvested, but the workers are few. But I can't re-make them, and I'm not going to make my values (helping the poor) contingent upon their willingness to reform. Jesus did not say only to visit those prisoners who were sorry for their crimes; he said, visit the prisoners.

 

And when he healed people, he healed both those who thanked him, and those who did not. Those who appreciated it, and those who did not. He fed the poor, those who worked, and those who didn't.

 

I know, it's a very radical idea, of not linking one's worth, in terms of being helped, to what one DOES.

 

I want to help people simply because they ARE people.

[SailorMom]

Well Family B is comprised of IDIOTS. What do you want us to tell you? Statistically, they will need some sort of care at some point in time. Hopefully for them, in this system they will make to Medicare.

 

So when something happens to family B, say the mom gets cancer or the dad falls while trimming a tree and breaking his back... You want to do what? Tell them, "Suck it? Too bad?" Are we going to stop taking care of the idiots in the US? Well, no offense but I've seen a few people here on this board who are going to have to go without healthcare then. Not to mention giant swaths of people should just be wiped out I guess. And what's our criteria going to be? Reality TV fans? People who work at Taco Bell? How about people who cigarette butss out the car window? Those people MUST be idiots!

 

And if Family B happens to be your sister's family, are you going to be ok with watching her die? What if you're Family B? What if Family B is entrepreneurial and employs 30 people? So when Family B's business owner dies, we tell the employees what? The same, "Suck it. Too bad," we told the original family?

 

That's the other thing I don't think people really get about healthcare - the cascade effect. How do you feel secure in life watching a young friend die from a dumb infection? How do you grow up happy when your father dies from something we could have fixed but didn't?

 

And everyone wants coverage when it's their spouse or brother or neighbor. But that anonymous "welfare" mother in San Diego? She shouldn't have made bad choices! :glare:

 

Uh - wow - I didn't ever say any of that. If you want to be crude and rude to make a point, go ahead - but all I was saying is that many families who say they cannot afford medical care are making choices that put them in that situation.

And, uh - I said I was all for asisted medical care or those who need it.

[cathmom]

Family A: No vacations, cheap low-minutes,no-data plan phone, 10 year old TV, used car, no eating out, no going out to movies, shops at a discount store, rarely buys new clothes - and those are very inexpensive, frugal all around, pay into thier reitement fund privately, and have purchased healthcare insurance privately

 

Family B: Vacation twice or three times a year (cruises, trips to other countries, month long holidays), new phones with data plans, new cars, eat out a few times a week, always see new movies as they come out, no retirement fund, clothes whenever they want them, grocery shop wherever is convininet..... no healthcare.... they say emphatically that they can't afford it and that healthcare is too expensive in the US.

 

 

 

My dh said that Family A and Family B are completely equal under the American system. If they both had a devastating health crisis, Family A would wipe out their savings and their retirement and end up bankrupt. Family B would just be bankrupt sooner.

[Linda in NE]

Nothing but government regulation will keep plans 'reasonably priced.'

 

It's the very same insurance commissions that mandate policies sold in each individual state cover everything but the kitchen sink, thereby driving up the price. Are you aware that, in some states, a single male cannot buy a health insurance policy that does not provide coverage -- at a cost -- for gynecological services that HE does (clearly) not require???? That's just one example.

 

Moreover, catastrophic health insurance and HSAs are being phased out in places where they are still available, and this is due in large part because of government mandates.

 

Finally, a sizable portion of the fees paid by private pay and insured patients are attributable to UNDERpayments made by government run health programs line Medicaid and Medicare, which often don't meet providers' costs of service. Those costs are passed on to patients who pay their own way or who have insurance.

 

In short, a great deal of the cost escalation in the cost of health care and the consequent cost of health insurance is due to government involvement in the system in the first place.

[Mrs Mungo]

<caveat: did not read the whole thread, so am most likely stepping into a minefield here>

 

Because, if I understand that quote correctly, tntgoodwin is in the military?

 

The job of the military is to be willing to die for a living. In recompense, they (and their families) are offered healthcare while alive.

 

Sounds really awful when you write it out, doesn't it?

 

 

a

 

What sounds awful is people who have sick kids and stay in the military risking their lives because it's the only way they can take care of their kids. We know many of those people.

[asta]

But have they ever worried that medical bills will bankrupt them? Have they ever been tied to a job they hate because of the insurance? Have they laid awake night wondering how on earth they can pay their insurance premiums? Have they wrestled with whether it's better for the dh to take the job's insurance and take the risk that he won't be able to get back on the wife's private plan should he lose the job just to save $100 bucks a month, if that?

 

It's not all sunshine and roses over here either.

 

No. They just die.

 

They've been conditioned that "The State" will take care of them, so they wait. And wait. No matter what is wrong. And things get worse and worse. Until they are at the point that there *is* no fix.

 

And they die.

 

 

How's that for dramatic? It's true.

 

 

a

[KristinaBreece]

If in America we are only valued for our work, why are half of us paying for some type of government assistance to the other half? If that were really true, that percentage would be 0.

 

I ask this as gently as possible. Do you truly believe that everyone on every type of government assistance is a freeloading deadbeat?

 

Let's look at one of the nation's largest employers, Walmart.

 

In Ohio alone, Walmart employs about 54,000 people. (2009) Of those 54K+, 1341 are using government healthcare, 8,565 are on food stamps, and 305 are receiving monthly cash assistance from the government.

 

The amount of money a family has to be making to receive these benefits are laughable. The average Walmart employee makes just under 21K per year. And that factors in the higher end salaries, so most hourly employees are making less than that. For a new fulltime WM employee, the pay is about 11K per year. The Federal poverty level is set at $22,350.

 

A lot of people who are having to rely on government assistance to feed their kids or get basic medical care are working just as hard as anyone else, and the taxes from their checks go into those programs as well.

[SailorMom]

My dh said that Family A and Family B are completely equal under the American system. If they both had a devastating health crisis, Family A would wipe out their savings and their retirement and end up bankrupt. Family B would just be bankrupt sooner.

 

No - their health insurance is really good. They have a $1000 deductible, and $20 copays. No limits.

[Pam Wilhelm]

Oh! I didn't mean that you won't CARE about X, Y, or Z happening to your family. :grouphug: Just that it won't affect the way you look at medical care. I fully respect your decision to not use medical intervention & to rely on prayer... I look at that kind of like people who choose to homeschool but still have to pay their school district tax. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

 

 

 

It's cool... I understood. :D I just didn't want others to think that I didn't care... the internet is a fickle friend sometimes... easy to misunderstand. :grouphug:

 

Again, thank you for understanding my side of the healthcare debacle.

[cdrumm4448]

Nothing but government regulation will keep plans 'reasonably priced.'

 

And right now it is the plethora of state insurance commissions that is the bastion of consumer rights against price gouging and offering insurance only to the healthy and cancelling insurance on the sick. Eliminating the state insurance commissions to replace them with a national one will give the insurance companies one and only one target, and will reduce innovation in consumer-friendly solutions. It's deceptively packaged as a choice issue, which is most certainly is not.

 

I disagree that nothing but government regulation will keep plans reasonable priced. If we were allowed a truly free choice, supply and demand would prevail.

[Jennifer3141]

Uh - wow - I didn't ever say any of that. If you want to be crude and rude to make a point, go ahead - but all I was saying is that many families who say they cannot afford medical care are making choices that put them in that situation.

And, uh - I said I was all for asisted medical care or those who need it.

 

 

I guess I don't understand your point of why you think there shouldn't be national healthcare because of this family. How is it "crude and rude" to ask for qualifications on idiocy?

[Aelwydd]

No. They just die.

 

They've been conditioned that "The State" will take care of them, so they wait. And wait. No matter what is wrong. And things get worse and worse. Until they are at the point that there *is* no fix.

 

And they die.

 

 

How's that for dramatic? It's true.

 

 

a

 

And yet, asta, they are dying at older ages, and at slower rates than citizens here in the U.S. Statistics bear this out repeatedly.

 

I have never argued that socialized programs in other countries are flawless. Merely, that they are less flawed, more equal in their distribution of health care, and therefore more successful in keeping their respective populations healthy.

 

Emotional arguments cannot supercede the objective facts.