Math WWYD- move on or start over?

[Paige]

My 1st graders do not enjoy math. They have struggled with it since K, and probably before. We have been plodding diligently through MM1 and they are making progress, doing much better than before, but still are only about 1/3 of the way through 1B. I had planned on having them continue with MM1 through summer, and start 2 in the fall or whenever they finish 1. Now, because of how much I see them struggling still with the 1st grade material, I'm wonder if I should just say screw it all, and have them start MM1 over from the beginning right now? Has anyone done that? I don't want to curriculum hop. These kids have tried several curricula between, preK, K, and summer work with me, and they don't do any better with anything else, and I don't think the curriculum is the problem.

 

They can do the work they have now but it comes with much hand holding and me talking them through it. They understand the material from the first of the year but I still don't think it is solid, rock hard, deep in their guts, mastered. I think maybe if we start it over they would do much better, they would gain confidence, and maybe things would click. Or maybe it would demoralize them more?? If we did that, they wouldn't enter 2nd doing 2nd grade work even if we worked through the summer, and that would bother them. On the other hand, I would rather they stay on 1st grade work and really understand it so they can move on and excel rather than continue crying and only half understanding their math forever.

 

I am not sure what would be best. I don't think the work they are doing is too hard for them right now, but I am tired of fighting with them about it. Every day they cry and cry and tell me they can't do it and I can see- actually see- their eyes not looking at the problems and I know they aren't thinking about how to solve the problem before they cry about it. I believe that "I can't," means, "I don't want to think about it," "I want you to do it for me," and "I'm afraid that I might make a mistake," more than a reflection of any lack of ability or knowledge. Today, for example, they were asked to skip count by 11, on a number chart, and they said they can't do it, and pointed at random spots on the chart and asked if that was right within 5sec. of looking at it. To me, that is not trying as they know how to count, know what 11 means, and know in what order the numbers on the number chart go. But still.....maybe they just need some time to chill and feel confident, and starting over would be what they need to learn how to try.

 

Advice? If I could send them to school for math I would because they are killing me.

[boscopup]

I wouldn't have them repeat curriculum they've already done. That would probably make them hate it more! And 1A is pretty boring. I wouldn't want to do that twice. :tongue_smilie:

 

What about taking a break for a few weeks, then starting back up with it, but NOT using the worksheets for a bit? Try doing the problems on a white board and see if that helps. You could just look ahead at the lesson yourself, then put up some problems on the board and have them help you work through them. Make it a little bit more fun.

 

Are you doing games for the addition/subtraction facts? Card games, computer games, Rightstart games, etc.

 

If they need any manipulatives, let them use them. An abacus or some base 10 blocks. If it will help, use it.

 

As far as continuing with grade 1 in the fall... Give them individual pages, not a bound workbook. The individual pages don't have grade numbers on them, so if you don't tell them it's first grade math, they won't know. ;)

 

It really sounds though as if you need to take a break, play some games, and just destress, ya know? They may not quite be ready for it, and just a little bit of time and maturity might make them ready.

[blondeviolin]

Could you just get a "fun" curriculum? Would Miquon be "fun"?

[Critterfixer]

Miquon.:iagree:

 

I also would drop worksheets for a while.

I doubt seriously that any first grader would have math facts down solid, even if he could say them all from rote memory. I know mine can't, and I don't let it distress me, because I know that there is a jump from concrete math to symbolic math. For instance my ds twins would know immediately if I shorted one a few chocolate chips, and they would set up a yammering until the amount was divided equally, but they don't know the concept of division beyond the one-for-me, one-for-you kind of thing.

 

 

believe that "I can't," means, "I don't want to think about it," "I want you to do it for me," and "I'm afraid that I might make a mistake," more than a reflection of any lack of ability or knowledge. Today, for example, they were asked to skip count by 11, on a number chart, and they said they can't do it, and pointed at random spots on the chart and asked if that was right within 5sec. of looking at it. To me, that is not trying as they know how to count, know what 11 means, and know in what order the numbers on the number chart go. But still.....maybe they just need some time to chill and feel confident, and starting over would be what they need to learn how to try.

 

 

 

Which is the same thing. "I can't!' is a self-fulfilling prophesy. My sons have also struggled with the ability to identify greater or less than in terms of numbers. But it is easy with manipulatives. And it is easy with pictures of objects. It is easy to see that nine is more than six if there are pictures of pears drawn there. Just because someone can count because they have been taught to say the words does not mean that they can put the symbol and the actual amount together.

 

One thing I have done this year with Saxon 1 for my first graders was to never pull manipulatives away for anything. When they ask me for help with a question I will ask them to "do it with crayons". I will also allow them to help each-other with their math fact sheets, also using their crayons. Everytime they see the number five and pull out five crayons to add to six more that helps to set the idea in their mind that the number five is the same as the amount of five.

Try doing subtraction problems with chocolate chips. I also allow the boys to use my fingers for subtraction, as in "If I have eight fingers and you chop two off.."

Make it fun. Make it real. And make it personal. All of that helps.

[Paige]

Could you just get a "fun" curriculum? Would Miquon be "fun"?

 

BTDT. They did worse with the fun curriculum. They didn't get it and they didn't think it was fun. I've been doing some of the games and they hate them. One of them hates games in general and the other just wants to play Candyland.

 

I'll see how they do orally with the worksheets tomorrow. That might help. They use manipulatives for everything but it doesn't always help. Another thing I was thinking was maybe I could mix up a few pages from the beginning of 1a in with the work their on now. We'd go slower, but we'd still be moving forward.

[Farrar]

Even if it's not the "fun" curriculum, I would still drop MM if it's the thing they hate - at least if you're going to have them repeat. Maybe even just do something really simply like Spectrum workbooks. Or, if you want to stick with MM because you feel it's really the right curriculum for them, maybe have them do the blue series. We switched to MM after my first graders bombed out of MEP. It took them less than two weeks to do the addition one book because at that point, they really "got" it and that drastically helped with their confidence going forward.

[MeganW]

I would back up and say "we are going to do some easy stuff this summer, and go back to 'real math' in the fall". And just start them back over at the beginning, using a white board or something to make it look a little different.

[ktgrok]

I'd say maybe they are not ready for it developmentally? Maybe stop for the summer, and just do some math games. Then start where you left off in the fall. Why do they have to know what grade level it is? I just print out the day's work and give it to my son, he has no idea which book/level it is. Also, do you have them do all the problems, or just some? It is designed for you to do about half the problems, then come back and do more the next day if they struggled. If you are making them do all of them it may be overwhelming.

[monalisa]

If they are crying over it, I say that is a strong sign you need a different curriculum. I keep trying MM with my rising 3rd grader, and she strongly dislikes it. It just is not her cup of tea, no matter how much other people's kids like it and no matter how much I like it. She is very visual, MM is very not visual. I have found myself doing the same hand-holding, talking through it etc. Maybe this just isn't the right curriculum for them. There are so many choices that I would not put yourself in the "MM or bust box" in 1st grade; I'd spend some time figuring out what kind of learners you have. Really, if you switch in 1st grade you are not curriculum hopping. I agree with others that repeating it sounds like a bad idea.

[jennynd]

I agree with change curriculum. l. If they are not enjoy workbook type math. maybe time to switch

Edited May 27, 2011 by jennynd

[Tam101]

I wouldn't have them start over. MM is intense! Make sure you aren't expecting them to do too much in one day. I have my son do half or less of the problems and no more then two pages of problems a day. I started off full force with MM, expecting him to complete every problem and entire sections in a day. Things got much better after I started highlighting the problems I wanted him to do. Also, with my son, I've noticed that he starts retaining the facts after he starts applying them. I could drill and drill math facts, but until he started doing more complicated addition and subtraction (and in our case multiplication this year) the facts didn't stick. Once he had an application for them they stuck.

[sgo95]

Math builds/progresses so a child struggling with math may be an indication that they need a stronger foundation at a lower level in order to move forward.

 

We did this with our DD2 this year. She was using Singapore Math level 2 and we went back to Singapore Math's Intensive Practice level 1 to reinforce fundamental concepts about place value and strategies for addition/subtraction (she was getting very easily frustrated and seemed shaky on the topics I just mentioned). DH repeated math once in elementary school due to a mix-up (not because of grades) and he said it was actually a great experience because he came out of it feeling like he was really good at math and knew what was going on (he now has graduate degrees in applied math).

 

I've found that attitude is so important for my kids in doing math. If they start math feeling anxious (trying to perfect, afraid to take too long, etc) or tired or hungry, problems that I know they know how to do all of a sudden seem to be rocket science. If it's not hunger/fatigue, I try to give them a pep talk about how we can figure out the problem. I don't test them; instead I try to establish a collaborative relationship and we discuss what they do know, what their thought process is, what strategy they should try, etc. I reiterate that they shouldn't expect to "know it" in a snap; they can take their time and reason it through--"we CAN figure this out".

 

Another point is that I try to be careful not to be trapped by what's on the workbook page. They don't need to complete every problem if they can demonstrate mastery of it. Otherwise, it becomes busy work and kills their drive to learn. I don't know if this is relevant in your case, but sometimes my kids find an alternate way of approaching the problem that is correct. In that case, I don't insist that they do things exactly as expected in the curriculum.

 

In terms of skip counting by 11, I wouldn't necessarily expect my 1st grader to be able to skip-count beyond 2-5 & 10 (after clearly demonstrating the general idea). The bigger issue is how they deal with things they don't know how to do. I absolutely don't want to walk through every probelm with my kids, but they need to feel secure enough in me and their own abilities to try different approaches and to ask me for help.

 

I don't know if this is possible for your family, but can someone else take over math over the summer perhaps and give everyone a different perspective and a break from current frustrations?

 

Finally, in terms of being on grade level, it doesn't really matter at this age. There's so much time ahead to catch up. Having a strong foundation in place value and strategies for addition/subtraction will go a long way towards easing your kids math struggles. Basically, I think it's a great idea to repeat the material in level 1.

 

Best wishes, and sorry for the long post.

[walkermamaof4]

I think Rightstart a would give them the foundation they sound like they may be missing. I definitely wouldn't move on with MM, but you may find that you can return to it at some point. We've done MM and RS and RS is very oral, full of games, super fun, but helps them SEE the fact families in their head in a way I think is very helpful. Would anyone you know have it for you to borrow for a week?

[Paige]

What would be a fun curriculum but without games? My one DD hates games. She cries at the thought of having to play games. She can't play memory, even by herself, because she doesn't know where the matches are. The other one is not a big fan of games but she can go along with them without getting overly upset. In general, however, these two do not think games are fun.

 

I was sticking with MM because they actually like it better than anything else they have tried. They refused to play the preK math games, hated Kindergarten math, cried and hated Shiller, cried and were miserable through Time4Learning, don't like Jumpstart games, and had meltdowns with Saxon and Abeka. With MM, they still cry and don't like it, but they will do it and cry much less than anything else. They cry easily, so crying isn't an unusual reaction to anything that is not perfectly fun. I have had DS and DD work with them but they do no better.

 

Are there any math programs known for being great for kids with math learning disabilities, and aren't game based? They might be too young to know if they have a LD, but it seems they are just not understanding what is being asked most of the time. Or maybe they are just spacing out and not paying any attention to me. They are excellent fakers. Part of the reason I pulled them out of PS was because their teacher had no idea that they had no idea how to do any of their math work. She said they always seemed like they were following along in class but at home they had no clue what to do with their homework.

[AyeshaTN]

I didn't read all of the replies but I can say we have been through this with several things. I stop where we are at and go back and review what it is my daughter is not confident in. Today I had to go back to review uppercase and lowercase letters because she had a hard time telling the difference when they were written without the lines. After doing some preschool matching worksheets and writing them out on the white board, she felt much better and did great on her assignment. Just sometimes it takes a little review. We can also become frustrated and when they feel our frustration they can become even less confident, like they are making us unhappy. Sometimes just taking a break from the subject that day and looking at it in a different way the next day can make a huge difference. I personally would not move forward until my daughter got it down. If I knew she could do it but wouldn't then I would come up with some reward system, like a stamp at the top of a completed page or a sticker, etc for a job well done.

[Critterfixer]

I don't want to curriculum hop. These kids have tried several curricula between, preK, K, and summer work with me, and they don't do any better with anything else, and I don't think the curriculum is the problem.

 

Can you put your finger on what you think the problem might be? The curriculum you have used--does it follow the same basic formulas or is it all over the board? Does it drill memorization of math facts or is it a little too abstract for them at times? Whether you are thinking of changing curriculum or just changing the way you teach it I think it is good to go back and look at what has been done before. The sure sign of insanity, they say, is to keep doing what has failed and expecting it to succeed the next time. I know for certain that it will drive you crazy!

 

They didn't get it and they didn't think it was fun.

Then it simply wasn't fun and they didn't understand it. One child's definition of what is fun is not the same as another child's idea of fun. At this point, they may approach anything that looks like math with a jaundiced eye, thinking you are going to try to trick them into doing math by pretending it's a game. Coating a pill might make it go down in the short term, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a pill.

For my boys, the idea of fun math is 1) math that gets done quickly, 2)repeated material that they know so well that it is like child's play, 3) A concept presented in a way that they can make sense of with concrete objects; 4) a hug at the end and a great big gold star for work well done.

Do we have days with tears? You bet. Not every day is sunny. But tears usually signal frustration, or being overwhelmed. More than once I will put the worksheet away, and have them go lie down for a bit, so that I can finish Math with one, and then, after both of them have been outside for a while I'll sit down with the one who was having trouble and we will work through it together.

 

The other one is not a big fan of games but she can go along with them without getting overly upset. In general, however, these two do not think games are fun.

What do they think is fun? What do they like best about school? What are they the best at? How much praise do they get for good, hard, well-done work? What motivates them to do their best? Are they well rested before beginning math? Are they spending too much time watching television or playing other screen based media which might make a difference to how well they focus on word-based explanations? How well do they pay attention in other areas of their schoolwork?

 

She said they always seemed like they were following along in class but at home they had no clue what to do with their homework.

 

Who helped them with their homework at home? What is your own experience with Math been? I do find that if I approach a lesson with a doubtful mindset, that my children will pick up on my reaction and act accordingly. If I come at it with confidence and enthusiasm, because it is a topic that I enjoy and that I understand exactly what I am supposed to be teaching and why, they will pick up on that as well. No bells, whistles or songs and dances needed. Being able to do the work because they understand it and know that they can count on Mom to be patient and to help, not by giving them answers, but by directing them to finding the answer seems to be the best curriculum I've ever met for teaching math.

 

I also find that about a half-cup of tea with milk (aka Brain-Juice in this house) is helpful, and about two cups of tea for me and a good long break after math are useful for helping me find my happy place for math.:tongue_smilie:

[Paige]

I really think their problem is that they don't fully understand the language- more, less, put together, add, take away, next, tens, ones,...it sounds so simple, and they nod and smile, they parrot back what it is, but I don't think they really know what to do and what those words mean in that context. That's why I thought we'd start over- get the language solid, do it with something they like, and relearn the language with something they are good at. For 6+1, a lot of times, their first answer will be something like 61 or 16. They know what 6+1 is if you catch them before they get nervous, or if they are doing a series of addition problems, but all by itself using words or symbols, they forget and it is like they have never done it before.

 

The curricula have been all over the place. Some textbooky, some workbooky, some active and play based, some fun and games and cartoony, I've tried one on one and together,...

 

My experience with math has been good. It is intuitive and easy for me, but my mom said she was just like them. Unfortunately, my mom was never good in math and I think she was just nodding and smiling the whole way through her classes. I want them to have a different experience.

 

For them, fun is playing pretend, coloring, handwriting, free drawing, dress up,doing hair, gardening, cooking, cutting, pasting, crafts, science, read alouds, dancing, swinging, jumping on a trampoline, reading easy things to their little sister, and anything they think they are good at. Not fun is anything that they may have to try more than once to get right or anything that it is possible to win or lose or to make a mistake with.

[Critterfixer]

They know what 6+1 is if you catch them before they get nervous, or if they are doing a series of addition problems, but all by itself using words or symbols, they forget and it is like they have never done it before.

 

My oldest twin struggles with the need to get it right the first time, or he also gets nervous and stumbles. His trouble is that in his need to "get it right" he fails to "understand the problem." Often I have to slow him down and have him read the problem, and then we discuss what the problem is asking him to do? I can either have him show me with his crayons, or I will have him think through our math fact cards (which we review at every lesson, only one group at a time, though) and decide what type of problem it is. After a row of this he can usually go on his own, as long as he knows that I am around, and that I will always make him go through that process. He still hates being wrong, but now he knows that he is likely to make mistakes when he doesn't take the time to think.

 

My experience with math has been good. It is intuitive and easy for me, but my mom said she was just like them.

I think it is sometimes hard to teach when the subject makes instinctive sense to you and your dc just don't think the same way. Math was not a subject that I loved immediately. I had a very tough time with algebra and with geometry, which my father loved, but could not teach, and which my mother hated and did not understand. I was left to try to piece it together, just me and Saxon, and we didn't get along well. But I later discovered calculus, and I got a glimpse of what it was to really love math.

It helps to remember that you do have a head for the language of math and they have not been speaking it for long, and not very well. It would be similar to a child having to learn a foreign language without being immersed in it. Not easy, especially if they have never had a good experience with it.

 

For them, fun is playing pretend, coloring, handwriting, free drawing, dress up,doing hair, gardening, cooking, cutting, pasting, crafts, science, read alouds, dancing, swinging, jumping on a trampoline, reading easy things to their little sister, and anything they think they are good at. Not fun is anything that they may have to try more than once to get right or anything that it is possible to win or lose or to make a mistake with.

Very artistic, then. Probably with a right-brained dominance. The jump to symbols might take longer to develop.

I wonder if word problems that they have to draw out would be helpful. To hear the number and then draw the number of objects to be added, and marking them out to subtract might be a way that they could interact with the math in a more concrete way.

 

Since they draw, I would probably gather up their "junk pile". You know what I mean--all those pieces of paper with one or two lines on them that they didn't like and chucked. Next math lesson I might dump those in front of them. Mistakes are not fatal (mostly:001_smile:). Every time it just isn't quite right is an opportunity to improve. If they didn't use all that paper, but instead, decided to give up because it wasn't perfect, they wouldn't be as good at drawing as they are. Young perfectionists often need reminding of how hard they practiced to get good at what they are good at.

[justasque]

I wouldn't have them repeat curriculum they've already done. It really sounds though as if you need to take a break, play some games, and just destress, ya know? They may not quite be ready for it, and just a little bit of time and maturity might make them ready.

 

I can't see the point of going through the same curriculum twice. Adding in a different one helps the student get at things from a different angle. Doing the same thing over again, that didn't click the first time, seems less likely to work than choosing something different. (You can always go back to the original for the next year.)

 

Make it fun. Make it real. And make it personal. All of that helps.

 

I'd say maybe they are not ready for it developmentally? ... Also, do you have them do all the problems, or just some? If you are making them do all of them it may be overwhelming.

 

If they are crying over it, I say that is a strong sign you need a different curriculum. ... Really, if you switch in 1st grade you are not curriculum hopping. I agree with others that repeating it sounds like a bad idea.

 

 

I've found that attitude is so important for my kids in doing math. If they start math feeling anxious (trying to perfect, afraid to take too long, etc) or tired or hungry, problems that I know they know how to do all of a sudden seem to be rocket science. If it's not hunger/fatigue, I try to give them a pep talk about how we can figure out the problem. I don't test them; instead I try to establish a collaborative relationship and we discuss what they do know, what their thought process is, what strategy they should try, etc. I reiterate that they shouldn't expect to "know it" in a snap; they can take their time and reason it through--"we CAN figure this out".

 

 

 

 

I don't know if this is a part of it, but -- I have taught quite a few homeschooled kids over the years, as well as my own. Every single one of them gets to a point I call "brain freeze", where they Just.Can't.Think. For the older kids it happens after an hour - you can often set your watch by it. For the youngers, a bit less. And if they're tired, or hungry, even less. I have learned that there is absolutely no benefit to forcing it once brain freeze hits, especially for younger kids. Stop, take a break, do some later or start fresh tomorrow.

 

Math shouldn't bring tears. Make sure they know that they aren't expected to come up with the answer out of thin air. Make sure they are OK with reasoning through it out loud. Give them time to do this. Much of teaching math is you being quiet while their brain works through the problem - the possibilities, the calculations, the promising but ultimately dead-end strategies. (Sometimes I knit or unload the dishwasher to keep me from butting in too much while they're thinking.) If the child gets stuck, talk about strategies. Give them a list of strategies. (I have printed them on a bookmark, to be kept in the math book.) Things like make a model, solve a simpler problem, make a list, draw a picture, etc. Let them choose a method to use.

 

Good luck!

[kalanamak]

Could you just get a "fun" curriculum? Would Miquon be "fun"?

 

Dice games? Card games? Very simple math-facts bingo? A huge pile of manipulatives? When my son was six he loved doing math with pennies dimes and coin dollars. He was riveted! He also liked hopping up and down the stairs (hop up to step two, says "2 plus 2 makes four, and hop up the two more. Have him/her hop up the four, repeating after you, etc).

 

Sum Swamp? Dino Tracks? What is that DVD with Jason the very enthusiastic young man who does math? Math-tacular, I think.

Math songs? I know they are out there. Gosh, for a 6 year old I'd make things as alluring as possible. Heaven fo-fend you seat loathing at that age.

 

Mention numbers in everything. Weeding? Count the weeds, pull two, count again. Put out 20 kernals of popped corn. Have kiddo so subtraction by eating. Gee willy, I'd get the "number sense" in first before the books.

 

:grouphug: It can try the patience. HTH.

[Critterfixer]

For the older kids it happens after an hour - you can often set your watch by it. For the youngers, a bit less. And if they're tired, or hungry, even less. I have learned that there is absolutely no benefit to forcing it once brain freeze hits, especially for younger kids. Stop, take a break, do some later or start fresh tomorrow.

 

If it's boys, I'd say about thirty, then it's time to take a break. I find that "healthful fresh air" preferably obtained by climbing a tree is most effective. If I know that the concept coming up is tough, I'll break off math after the review part and send them outside for twenty-minutes. Then it's back in for the lesson, then out again before a worksheet.

 

Math shouldn't bring tears. Make sure they know that they aren't expected to come up with the answer out of thin air. Make sure they are OK with reasoning through it out loud. Give them time to do this. Much of teaching math is you being quiet while their brain works through the problem - the possibilities, the calculations, the promising but ultimately dead-end strategies. (Sometimes I knit or unload the dishwasher to keep me from butting in too much while they're thinking.) If the child gets stuck, talk about strategies. Give them a list of strategies. (I have printed them on a bookmark, to be kept in the math book.) Things like make a model, solve a simpler problem, make a list, draw a picture, etc. Let them choose a method to use.

 

:iagree:Also, I encourage them to work together to solve problems when it comes to review. For concept work I do like to have a little one on one with them to see where there could be misunderstanding, or where there was daydreaming going on where there should have been listening.

[Guest]

I agree. maybe it is time to switch. Mine are loving McRuffy to the point that they beg to do 'just one more' every day. Now THAT is a good program!

[SorrelZG]

CritterFixer and askPauline, your advice has been so helpful to me!

 

My (almost) Ker sounds very similar to the OP's girls in every way besides the crying. I know repeating things when it appears that he's not getting it just provokes him. He's younger so his brain freezes sooner and therefore I keep his math lessons to 10 minutes.

 

OP, I wonder if you notice something similar with your girls. I can hold up 4 fingers and ask DS how many more do I need to make 7 and he can tell me. Pretty much any order of addition or subtraction is something he can do this way without counting. It gives me the impression that he can do math in his head, especially when he does it in daily life too (there seven people at the table and I only have 4 napkins - I need to get 3 more). I figure a worksheet should be no problem for him, right? Especially considering he knows the numbers that represent (at least) the quantities up to 10 which is all the early portion of MM works with. I have MM so I use it now and then (it's been the same with any paper and pencil math though) and it's rarely an encouraging experience. There seems to be something about it that induces brain freeze.

 

You know how early on there will be a sum written, let's say 6 + 1 = ___ and above will be boxes, one with 6 pictures in it and another blank with the idea that the child fills it in to depict the "+1" and then use the pictures to help them come up with the answer? This sheet tempted me to curse. For my son it turned a simple sum into a multi-step, and therefore complex, problem. After trying to explain what he was supposed to do with it a dozen times in as many different ways as I could only to get about 15% comprehension I finally told him to just ignore the pictures (but there was so much random scribbling on the page at that point that we had to switch to a new page with no pictures and basically ended up doing it orally. I have resigned myself to keeping pencil and paper math work to a bare minimum. I still have no idea how to get past the repulsion to repetition besides to do it frequently but in very short spurts with the occasional motivational speech about the realities of life (I like the idea of using the drawings - those papers take over my house if I don't stay on top of them and we really need to start making our own recycled paper with them :lol:).

 

Anyway .. mostly just wanted to give you :grouphug:. As I read your plight, my heart goes out to you!

[Paige]

OP, I wonder if you notice something similar with your girls. I can hold up 4 fingers and ask DS how many more do I need to make 7 and he can tell me. Pretty much any order of addition or subtraction is something he can do this way without counting. It gives me the impression that he can do math in his head, especially when he does it in daily life too (there seven people at the table and I only have 4 napkins - I need to get 3 more). I figure a worksheet should be no problem for him, right? Especially considering he knows the numbers that represent (at least) the quantities up to 10 which is all the early portion of MM works with. I have MM so I use it now and then (it's been the same with any paper and pencil math though) and it's rarely an encouraging experience. There seems to be something about it that induces brain freeze.

 

You know how early on there will be a sum written, let's say 6 + 1 = ___ and above will be boxes, one with 6 pictures in it and another blank with the idea that the child fills it in to depict the "+1" and then use the pictures to help them come up with the answer? This sheet tempted me to curse. For my son it turned a simple sum into a multi-step, and therefore complex, problem. After trying to explain what he was supposed to do with it a dozen times in as many different ways as I could only to get about 15% comprehension I finally told him to just ignore the pictures (but there was so much random scribbling on the page at that point that we had to switch to a new page with no pictures and basically ended up doing it orally. I have resigned myself to keeping pencil and paper math work to a bare minimum. I still have no idea how to get past the repulsion to repetition besides to do it frequently but in very short spurts with the occasional motivational speech about the realities of life (I like the idea of using the drawings - those papers take over my house if I don't stay on top of them and we really need to start making our own recycled paper with them :lol:).

 

Anyway .. mostly just wanted to give you :grouphug:. As I read your plight, my heart goes out to you!

 

They can do it with fingers, sometimes. Sometimes, they put the wrong fingers up and get confused. If we do it with blocks and put a pile of 6 blocks, then 1 block next to it, and then push them together, sometimes they still will say 16 or 61. I tell them to count the blocks, they'll count to 7, and still say 61. It's like kids who sound out c-a-t correctly phonetically, and then say, is it gorilla? But they can do math functionally in their every day life and very well.

 

I spent last night looking up things like IXL, Quartermile Math, Dreambox, Math Whizz, etc. I think they might like to just do that for a while. I'm going to try a bunch of free trials and see what they think. I asked if they wanted to quit MM or do something else and they said no. They want to keep going with MM and did not want to switch. Honestly, despite the crying, they really like it better than anything else. The crying is not a significant thing to me, other than an annoyance, because they cry all. the. time! Their first response to anything that irritates them or that they need to put effort into is to cry.

[KLinWI]

At that age I think the most important thing is to not be turned OFF to math.

Counting bears, dominoes, games, baking, 100 boards, fraction pies.....just let them play and give their play some names.

 

I have one daughter who is diligent in math and has been from day one because she feels she's accomplishing something.

 

My other daughter always fought it. I was pulling out different curricula every other week, copying pages and adding color, used every manipulative and game I could come up with. Some might say I was being indulgent. HOWEVER, she's 13, at the end of 7th grade, and for the 1st time ever, she's finishing a math curriculum, front to back. Thinkwell pre-algebra. She didn't love the math, but she's done very well. She thinks the little talking head is funny and she likes the independence of the online format. There was no magic bullet for her. We just had to get enough practice at the 4 operations to bring her to an age where she could be competent and responsible at an appropriate level. Which we've done.

[SorrelZG]

They can do it with fingers, sometimes. Sometimes, they put the wrong fingers up and get confused. If we do it with blocks and put a pile of 6 blocks, then 1 block next to it, and then push them together, sometimes they still will say 16 or 61. I tell them to count the blocks, they'll count to 7, and still say 61. It's like kids who sound out c-a-t correctly phonetically, and then say, is it gorilla? But they can do math functionally in their every day life and very well.

 

I spent last night looking up things like IXL, Quartermile Math, Dreambox, Math Whizz, etc. I think they might like to just do that for a while. I'm going to try a bunch of free trials and see what they think. I asked if they wanted to quit MM or do something else and they said no. They want to keep going with MM and did not want to switch. Honestly, despite the crying, they really like it better than anything else. The crying is not a significant thing to me, other than an annoyance, because they cry all. the. time! Their first response to anything that irritates them or that they need to put effort into is to cry.

 

Ah yes, I remember that period of phonics. On one hand I would think that since they can do real life math then perhaps it is simply a case of delayed transition to the next step towards the abstract (I don't recall the steps :tongue_smilie:). On the other hand I know I personally would feel hesitant to resign myself to simply being patient and trusting it will come. I wish I had some useful wisdom to impart that would bring you great enlightenment and comfort. I'll be following the thread in case someone else has it and shares. :bigear:

[SorrelZG]

There was no magic bullet for her. We just had to get enough practice at the 4 operations to bring her to an age where she could be competent and responsible at an appropriate level. Which we've done.

 

This is food for thought for me. In one way it appears liberating to consider that children can just really be that different when it comes to math. On the other hand, I'm feeling discouraged by the idea that there is not necessarily going to be a magic bullet for every child (and I don't know whether to insert a laughing smiley or a sad smiley here so I'll skip the smiley).

[gracyomalley]

MM is HARD!!!! It is also great at really cementing concepts, but if a child is still confusing 6+1=7 with 16 or 61, they simpy don't REALLY have the idea of number symbols and a one to one correspondance with value...any math program that relies on anything other than rote memorization in that instance is going to be a struggle...UNLESS this example you gave is just silliness...but I think you'd know if it was - my almost 7 year old can spend hours saying he "can't do it!", but no one who works with him more than an instant believes him...

 

the fact that you mentionned your child can't do memory matching card games well makes me think that memory is not cemented - this may be purely developmental at this age, but will make math, which does rely on memory of both concepts and facts, very difficult.

 

To put it in perspective - if you stick with MM, you really can go to pre-algebra or algebra after MM 6 - so you really should take off the "grade level" and give them a break, work on memory, maybe through story telling, sequencing games, creative songs, music, etc, and number concepts in real life (less/more, manipulatives, cooking, etc...). I would say, start up in the fall - see if you can re-do a few of the concept sections (as review, after a "summer off"), then go as fast as they can really handle it. MM2 really steps up the mental math, with tons of borrowing and carrying in multiple step word problems - you will be sorry if you go too fast with this curriculum , IMHO.

 

We've tried multiple curriculums, and I really think MM is very solid. We mix it up more for ease than need. My math whiz went from Saxon 2 (last few lessons) back to MM 1 and has just plowed through, now in MM 3, so you could back up with something else, if you wish. I also give them a certain amount of math (30-45 minutes at that age, or 1-2 pages, etc...maybe less in your case) and when its done (well), we are done. Stick to that, and the complaining decreases, and you can really see what is understood and what's not.

 

Hang in there - you have may years yet, and some of math just takes time...

Erin

[Paige]

 

the fact that you mentionned your child can't do memory matching card games well makes me think that memory is not cemented - this may be purely developmental at this age, but will make math, which does rely on memory of both concepts and facts, very difficult.

 

 

Nobody would know if she can't do the memory matching game, because she won't do it. She won't take one single turn because she is paralyzed by all the choices and the fact that she won't know for sure that the first one she tries is going to be a match. She will just look at the tiles laid out, cry, and say she doesn't know what to pick. I know...she has issues.

[SorrelZG]

Nobody would know if she can't do the memory matching game, because she won't do it. She won't take one single turn because she is paralyzed by all the choices and the fact that she won't know for sure that the first one she tries is going to be a match. She will just look at the tiles laid out, cry, and say she doesn't know what to pick. I know...she has issues.

 

I empathize. I was this little girl except left brained instead of right brained. Please don't give up looking for a way to help her through it! There is a high price to it eventually (if the stress it causes her now isn't enough).

[Critterfixer]

Fear is paralyzing. Every child has something that they are afraid of, and I don't think that she's truly afraid of math. She sounds as if she is afraid to fail. Math that she "can't do" might very well feel like a torture session.

 

You mentioned all the things that the girls find to be fun. I only saw one school related activity (forgive me, I'm running on a very low sleep-tank, and I may not be recalling all of them correctly). They liked reading books to their younger sibling. What else in school do they like or find interesting? What are their greatest strengths?

 

One thing that I have to constantly remind myself as I teach is that I am very, very hard on myself. I don't accept much below my own personal standards. So, it is altogether too easy to train that dark mirror on my kids. I've been told that my serious demeanor is intimidating. It amuses me (and gives me food for thought) that my oldest son will ask me, after he has struggled through math or another subject, "Mom, are you mad?":sad:

He requires lots of hugs and reassurances that just because I don't use a lot of facial expressions doesn't mean I'm mad at him! He, much more than his twin requires support to be able to fail. For him it is a lot of hugs and hair-ruffling after math, and sincere praise when he gives me a good effort. I also am sure to compliment him in other areas, wherever praise is due, and he gets to pick his own stickers for his best work. I also will ask both of the boys to put their sticker beside the problem or part of their work of which they were the most proud. Then they are truly rewarding themselves.

I have seen his confidence grow every day that I remind myself that he thrives on having his good work and hard efforts praised. The younger twin is about as stubborn as his Mom, but he also responds to praise. He also needs to be made aware of when he has hurried or not given me his best work. I find that a practiced sad and grave expression as I ask him to repeat a section or to go back and do it over are fairly effective in getting my point across. When he comes back with better work-sincere praise.

[kolamum]

Please don't laugh too hard at me, but honestly I'd drop all curriculum and do a lot of "hands on" or "living" math type learning.

 

I'd:

• Play games that required counting, adding, subtracting
  
• I'd graph the weather & perhaps various occasional ideas that come to mind
  
• Measure library lists, grocery receipts, etc {you could graph them too}
  
• Read math picture books {there's sooooo many to choose from; I have a huge list of them in my teacher's notebook}
  
• I'd play hopscotch with skip counting
  
• Let them count loose change or set up a "snack stand" and let them "buy" their snacks; play grocery store
  
• Write the date each day, sing the days of the week, talk about the months of the year
  
• Decide if each numerical day is odd or even each morning
  
• fill a small container with popcorn kernels, lentils, beans, or candies and let everyone guess how many are inside. Change the contents each week and it will become a family tradition that even once they outgrow the need for estimation they will beg you to keep doing
  
• Find word problems in math books, stories, or real life events. Have the children solve them on paper with drawn pictures and then write down how and why they solved it. Call it a math journal
  

 

I will attest to doing this and my children have always been able to pass grade level math tests. I've never had them tested via standardised testing, but we take the tests various math programmes offer up and if my child can pass the one for their grade level I don't panic.

 

I use to print out math sheets from various places around the internet when I wanted to have them practice math facts or other fun things like that. This year we actually purchased a math curriculum for the first time and they are enjoying it and speeding through it. We're still enjoying our games and other lessons, but this only further proves, to me at least, that what we did in the past worked wonderfully for them and built not only their confidence but knowledge in the skills needed.

 

Some great math books to get you started would be:

 

A Collection Of Math Lessons {red book}

Box Cars & One Eyed Jack math game books

[Paige]

I wanted to give a little update:

 

The girls are doing so much better with the changes I've made.

 

First, I am starting over with MM from the beginning orally. I print the pages as a guide, but we don't write in them and just talk about the subject/problems and work them out on the floor with manipulatives. We are doing one lesson a day which is really fast paced compared to what we had been doing but it is easy for them now and they are happy to do something easy. I tell them we are doing a review.

 

Second, I am continuing to move forward with MM but only doing 1 or new pages of new stuff a day. They are happy to be moving forward.

 

Third, I signed them up for a free trial of dreambox learning and they love it! They hated IXL, math board or card games, math computer games, Time 4 Learning Math, and the other game based things we've tried but they love this. I think they are attracted to the stories and characters. Also, I don't think the activities are really games in that they are competing against anyone and there's no pressure. They beg to play it all day and now they say they love math. I think the combination of the MM review and dreambox is making their new work easier for them and the dreambox is changing their attitude towards math so that they aren't upset before we even start. Yay! They didn't like dreambox the first day because they could tell it was math and they didn't want any part of that but I made them keep trying and the characters won them over by the 2nd day.

 

They are doing more math a day than they ever have and they are happier about it too.

[WishboneDawn]

I'd say maybe they are not ready for it developmentally? Maybe stop for the summer, and just do some math games. Then start where you left off in the fall. Why do they have to know what grade level it is? I just print out the day's work and give it to my son, he has no idea which book/level it is. Also, do you have them do all the problems, or just some? It is designed for you to do about half the problems, then come back and do more the next day if they struggled. If you are making them do all of them it may be overwhelming.

:iagree: Pick up a copy of family math, play Math War and cribbage, string beads, do jig saw puzzles, get some cuisenaire rods and poker chips for play, bake, do mosaics...Fill them up on mathy fun for the summer to give them a chance to really grasp the concepts and to give them a reference you can point them to when doing a particular math problem.

[TheAutumnOak]

I wanted to give a little update:

 

The girls are doing so much better with the changes I've made.

 

First, I am starting over with MM from the beginning orally. I print the pages as a guide, but we don't write in them and just talk about the subject/problems and work them out on the floor with manipulatives. We are doing one lesson a day which is really fast paced compared to what we had been doing but it is easy for them now and they are happy to do something easy. I tell them we are doing a review.

 

Second, I am continuing to move forward with MM but only doing 1 or new pages of new stuff a day. They are happy to be moving forward.

 

Third, I signed them up for a free trial of dreambox learning and they love it! They hated IXL, math board or card games, math computer games, Time 4 Learning Math, and the other game based things we've tried but they love this. I think they are attracted to the stories and characters. Also, I don't think the activities are really games in that they are competing against anyone and there's no pressure. They beg to play it all day and now they say they love math. I think the combination of the MM review and dreambox is making their new work easier for them and the dreambox is changing their attitude towards math so that they aren't upset before we even start. Yay! They didn't like dreambox the first day because they could tell it was math and they didn't want any part of that but I made them keep trying and the characters won them over by the 2nd day.

 

They are doing more math a day than they ever have and they are happier about it too.

 

I like your solution...I think you made good choices and I am glad it is working out for your girls...