Is it just me?....(Saxon vs. Singpore issue)

[Guest]

But let's assume 100% effort to get us to a position where the results on standardized test would be just as good as a 100% effort with Singapore. OK, so what? When did teaching to a standardized test competence become the goal of a classical education?

 

I have no doubts about how a student raise on Singapore will do on test scores, they will excel. I would also expect a child raised on Saxon would do well on standardized tests. But again, are test scores our measure of education? Or not?

 

An important goal (for me any way) is to raise a child who can take his skills far beyond the sorts of problems found in standardized tests. I want a thinker who can take on the cretive type work found in the "Art of Proplem Solving" materials, and who enjoys the subject as a creative intellectual endeavor, not just a kid who can competently plug numbers into a known formula and get "the answer." There is a profound difference here.

 

And it extends beyond math. If the math program a child (and parent) uses gets them to begin using logic, and reasoning skills in an age appropriate skills from the beginning then they develop this part of their mind in an on-going fashion.

 

Children (despite what Dorthy Sayers might postulate) don't suddenly wake up one day and become "logical beings." Logical thinking is a skill that can (and should) be cultivated in developmentally appropriate ways throughout childhood, and math is an outstanding subject to help accomplish this mission.

 

Remove reasoning, and hard cognitive work from a field of study and you are left with a pretty shallow subject.

 

But you are conflating time with learning. Endlessly repeating procedures takes time but it isn't necessarily the best way to promote "learning."

 

There is a false assumption here that whole-parts math programs (like Singapore) are easy, or that there is work to be avoided, when in fact this is opposite of the case.

 

A small example is in the tremendous amount of early work that goes into learning re-grouping strategies to solve basic addition and subtraction problems. The students (and their teachers) have to WORK to reason though and master these strategies. It has a cognitive load on the mind; it is brain-exercise, if you will.

 

Contrast this with only memorizing "math facts." This road is the lazy way. It short-cuts the hard spade-work that a program like Singapore requires, and no amount of repetition turns a low-level brain activity (recall of memorized "facts") into a high-level cognitive activity. No, it simply inures a child's mind to treating math as an intellectually uninteresting (boring) activity.

 

One can teach topics well and deeply from the outset, so a child will say: "I get it." And then you reenforce it by going deeper, as Jen and others have said the reinforcement is IN the math.

 

Others have address this, so I will keep it short. Your old math teacher's comments shows that he profoundly misunderstands the way a program like Singapore is used. If any is "delusional" about math education it is he.

 

Bill

 

:iagree::iagree:... and the day has come when I totally agree with you :D! Very well said! You have articulated so much better than I ever could how I feel about math and the reasons that made me drop Horizons Math.

[lulubelle]

So, those who say they only do 20 minutes of math a day are really doing a true hour, but broken into pieces?

 

Plus, if Spy Car is afterschooling, doesn't he add the math that his child does at school?

[Aubrey]

Why is it that people slam Saxon for taking over an hour each day to use when they themselves are putting in 20 minutes of SM...15 min of drill....15 min + on miquon....and then 10 on word problems? Ummmm...Is that not an hour of math? :confused:I honestly don't think that time has anything what so ever to do with it.

 

I don't time my kids' math, so I have no idea at this point how much time we spend on it.

 

What I've read here is not 1 hour of math vs 1 hour of Saxon; it's 2 hours of Saxon vs 20 min of Singapore that may or may not be supplemented w/ other things. People are taking the shortest SM time & comparing it to the longest Saxon time.

 

At this point, I'm only supplementing SM w/ LoF, & that's only for my oldest. I fit SM into 4 days/week & let him spend "Fridays w/ Fred." *shrug* He thinks LoF is so fun, he'd do it on his own time, so it doesn't feel quite the same as adding in another page of problems from Saxon. We have Miquon, although we don't use it often, & it's the same: fun enough he'd do it on his own time, so hardly comparable to an extra hour of traditional math. :001_smile:

[mystika1]

To ME: It's like spending 15 min on dishes, 10 min on starting & switching laundry, 10 min folding with the kids, 10 min watering plants, and 15 min helping the kids dust with the big floofy duster while they giggle, versus spending the whole hour scrubbing the kitchen floor. It's all housework, but the first one is fun, uses different processes, feels better due to accomplishing a large number of tasks, and provides variety. The second one I would despise due to the monotony, repetition, and incremental progress.

 

 

Now that I could understand:001_smile: but....from what I have seen of the K-3(that is all I have seen)you spend approx 15 min on calendar activities(meeting book) then move onto the lesson for approx 20 min. with manipulatives then finally they do review/drill for another 20 or so minutes. I don't find that as terrible as some would say. I still may be wrong but.....

 

Thanks,

 

Penny

[Beth in SW WA]

To ME: It's like spending 15 min on dishes, 10 min on starting & switching laundry, 10 min folding with the kids, 10 min watering plants, and 15 min helping the kids dust with the big floofy duster while they giggle, versus spending the whole hour scrubbing the kitchen floor. It's all housework, but the first one is fun, uses different processes, feels better due to accomplishing a large number of tasks, and provides variety. The second one I would despise due to the monotony, repetition, and incremental progress.

 

I pay my cleaning lady to do that so I can teach more math. :001_smile:

 

Loving this debate. :bigear:

[nmoira]

 

So, those who say they only do 20 minutes of math a day are really doing a true hour, but broken into pieces?

Not necessarily. I didn't do much more than 20 minutes of math a day with my eldest until recently. Much depends on how much scaffolding a child needs to get the lesson. A math adept child can read the Singapore text and plow through the accompanying workbook exercises in less than a half hour.

[texasmama]

Not necessarily. I didn't do much more than 20 minutes of math a day with my eldest until recently. Much depends on how much scaffolding a child needs to get the lesson. A math adept child can read the Singapore text and plow through the accompanying workbook exercises in less than a half hour.

 

I would agree with this. My boys are naturally very bent towards mental math, and the way SM presents concepts just makes sense to them. They are fully capable of making the "conceptual leaps" which SM asks for at times. Math probably takes us about half an hour per day on average, though I would need to time it to be certain. Rarely do my boys complain about math and need to take a break. Sometimes they ask to work ahead because they are having fun.

 

If I had different kids, I would need to use a different program, add in my own explanations (which I often do naturally, anyway) or supplement regularly. We do LoF in the summer to keep math fresh, because it is fun and because it presents the concepts from SM in a different way. SM is a complete program on its own, though. It is understood that the parent will drill multiplication facts separately.

[Critterfixer]

Shopping carts and crock-pots. Won't even go there.:001_smile:

 

As a Saxoner who is looking to supplement(insert collective gasp here) I spent a brief time between thunderstorms looking at reasonably priced (for my budget) math curricula. I am looking for summer math, but also for a curriculum that I can use to promote mastery when I feel it is lacking. Something less onerous than flashcards but not so full of frills and colors that it feels like a big, exciting, colorful wrapping for a pair of socks. I enlisted the DH civil engineer for responses. Age of prisoners--uh, students. First grade, ds7 twins. Reasonable little animals, even if they are a bit wiggly.

 

1) MEP. Free, except for printer ink, so fits the budget. Response from DH. "Huh?" "Oh, are those supposed to be apple cores? I thought they were candles." For the record, I also thought they were birthday candles.:blush: Neither of us are smart enough to teach MEP apparently.

 

2) MM. Cost isn't bad. It appears that it could be used as a supplement fairly easily. We liked the fact that it can be purchased as a download. No love or hate from either of us.

 

3) SM. Cost might well be a factor because of how it is set up. I particularly despised the number of books needed. We don't have the table space for it. The more books that have to be bought brings up the price especially if additional practice books would be bought.

DH "This math would be good for people who don't like math." We both disliked that there didn't seem to be much practice on an individual basis. We did like the word problems and the concept oriented approach.

Both of us were put off by the fact that it is a government developed program.

 

I believe we will be going with Math Mammoth for the summer.

[Penelope]

So, those who say they only do 20 minutes of math a day are really doing a true hour, but broken into pieces?

 

 

 

There are plenty of days where if I did only the Singapore text and workbook, it would be 20 minutes. We do have weeks like that, where math facts up to that point are already mastered and we are kind of on cruise control.

 

There are others where we are heavy on math facts. However, this is not all year long. This is maybe half the year, for 10 minutes 4 days per week. The reason it usually takes more than 30 minutes is because I add more challenging problems.

 

Here's the thing: Saxon doesn't generally have the more challenging problems at the lower levels that Singapore does. So, if Saxon truly takes even one hour per day, I'd have to do it for an hour, then supplement with the stronger problems that I like. Or, I'd chop off some Saxon problems, and supplement with extra problems from another program.

 

I don't supplement Singapore because Singapore is lacking. I only supplement Singapore with more Singapore, or with more challenging stuff. Plus facts practice. I don't use Miquon or other programs. Whether or not one or the other program needs to be supplemented, depends on the parent and the student. From my perspective, it just wouldn't be true that all we would need would be Saxon. Looking at what it offers, I still would feel the need to supplement.

 

That probably doesn't answer anything. :tongue_smilie:

[Penelope]

Is there a way to make SM spiral? Yes.. it has review but I need Time, Money, Measurements and so on to be covered atleast 2x a week for it to really stick. I would love it if SM did that and so would my dd. :001_smile:So in order for me to continue to use SM I will have to also use something spiral with it.

 

 

Not hard at all. Buy an extra practice or an IP book. The problems are divided up by content. Assign a few of these problems per week, out of sequence from the textbook and workbook. The standards editions also have extra review pages in the test with lots of extra problems. These are great for slipping in as review, a few at a time. There have been a couple of times where we have had to do this. I customize any curriculum to my student. If you really like the program you could probably make it work. I'm sure I could make Saxon work if I needed to. :D

[boscopup]

So, those who say they only do 20 minutes of math a day are really doing a true hour, but broken into pieces?

 

Some might be, and some might not be. Up until recently, my son was only doing 20-30 minutes a day (30 if he dawdled) on MM. He was plowing through it very easily and learning all of the concepts he was expected to learn at that stage. I added supplements to go deeper and give him more of a challenge, so those supplements tack on an extra 15-20 minutes. These "supplements" are not meant to fill in holes or give review that isn't in the main curriculum (MM has cumulative reviews and review within each chapter which suffice for him). They're just adding extra fun, challenging stuff. Some of it is topics he hasn't even covered yet in his main curriculum (especially what we do in PCM). I could remove those supplements without harming his math education in the least. They are purely there because he likes math and he likes a challenge. And since we're not busy playing with manipulatives for 15-20 minutes or doing a morning meeting to discuss the calendar (which he knows just fine and doesn't need to discuss everyday), we have more time to do the fun, challenging math. :)

 

Plus, if Spy Car is afterschooling, doesn't he add the math that his child does at school?

I would bet that Spy Car's son is probably working at home on math at a higher grade level than what he's doing in school, so the stuff at school is likely all review. Just a guess.

[The Governess]

Now that I could understand:001_smile: but....from what I have seen of the K-3(that is all I have seen)you spend approx 15 min on calendar activities(meeting book) then move onto the lesson for approx 20 min. with manipulatives then finally they do review/drill for another 20 or so minutes. I don't find that as terrible as some would say. I still may be wrong but.....

 

Thanks,

 

Penny

 

I have some experience with the amount of time it takes to do Saxon. If we did the entire meeting, here is what we would do every day:

 

Meeting: write the date on the calendar; ask how many days are in a week, two weeks, three weeks; ask what day of the week it was _ days ago and _ days from now, what month it was _ months ago and _ months after, record a special day and how many days it will be until it occurs; graph today's temperature; count by tens and twos to check the temperature; count by 4s to 40; count by 25s to 300; count back from 300 by 25s; count to and from 30 by 3s; ask questions about any of the graphs in our meeting book; identify a new pattern, complete the pattern and read it; count money in a cup; ask for another way to show the amount of money in the cup; set the clock; ask what time it was an hour ago and what time it will be an hour from now; write the digital time; write three number sentences that include the number of the day; write three fact family numbers and make up four number sentences for them.

 

I will admit that it's been a while since we did the meeting, but I used to do it once a week and this would probably take about 30 minutes if we did it as scripted. Did I mention that this is supposed to be done every day? :D

 

Next, I teach the lesson. The lesson can take anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour depending on what they want you to do. A quick lesson might be using rubber bands to make different kinds of perpendicular lines on a geoboard and then copying the designs onto a worksheet. A longer lesson might be making a graph of your friends' and family's favorite ice cream flavor, by having your child call 10-15 different people and asking them and then graphing it.

 

So, so far we are at 45 minutes to an hour and 15 minutes.

 

Next comes the math facts practice. One page, every day. Some pages have 20 problems and some have 100. This can take anywhere from 1 minute to 10 minutes. You are supposed to time your child but also have them finish any problems that they didn't complete within the time frame.

 

Oh, I forgot, that technically before you do the math facts sheet you are supposed to drill with flash cards (I've never done this). Let's add 5 minutes for this.

 

Now we are at 51 minutes to an hour and 30 minutes.

 

Next comes the worksheet. It is two sided. Each side takes about 10 minutes for my dd who is able to read all of the instructions herself and is a good writer. Let's say 15 minutes for each side for a child who needs each question explained, etc. I only have her do one side. You are supposed to do the first side after the lesson and the second side later in the afternoon. This is a mix of problems from the entire year, with one problem out of 10 or so based on today's lesson.

 

Now we are at 1 hour 21 minutes to 2 hours.

 

Finally, every 5th lesson there is an assessment. It is a one page worksheet. I would allocate 15 minutes to do the assessment. There is also an oral part to the assessment which I don't do, so maybe we can add 5 minutes for that.

 

Now we are at 1 hour 21 minutes to 2 hours and 25 minutes.

 

At my dd's school, they allocate 1 hour and 15 minutes for math class, not counting time for an assessment (which is done at home) and not counting the back of the worksheet (which is only assigned if it's determined that a student needs the extra practice).

 

Anyway, all of this to say that the 2 hours per day if you are really doing everything in the lesson as scripted is on the mark for a lot of the lessons. If you have a light day, the best you can hope for is still over an hour on math, if you are doing the lesson exactly as written. I would say that this is at least twice as much as I would spend on Singapore even using the extra workbooks, mental math practice sheets, activities from the home instructor's guide, etc.

[Critterfixer]

I will admit that it's been a while since we did the meeting, but I used to do it once a week and this would probably take about 30 minutes if we did it as scripted. Did I mention that this is supposed to be done every day?

 

I'm hoping that vanishes in higher math.:glare: I certainly don't remember doing the meeting in Algebra 1/2. That said, my boys actually like the meeting, mostly because it is a chance to show off. This is one thing that I despise about Saxon 1 that my kids actually like. Growl. But it doesn't seem to take 30 minutes. I could time it for a few days to see, but I'm betting we're through in fifteen. Maybe twenty.

 

Usually we get through a Meeting (Daily-see above growl) and the lesson, the fact sheet and one side of a worksheet and a fact card practice in about an hour to an hour and a half. If the lesson is long, or if diabolically Saxon chooses to have an Assessment AND a lesson on the same day (grounds for stamping and walking out if it was me), I will usually break ranks and do the Assessment and do the lesson the next day.

I have also had days when we would do the meeting and the lesson, call a recess for twenty minutes to go catch crayfish in the creek, and then do the factsheet and the worksheet after that.

[LittleIzumi]

Now that I could understand:001_smile: but....from what I have seen of the K-3(that is all I have seen)you spend approx 15 min on calendar activities(meeting book) then move onto the lesson for approx 20 min. with manipulatives then finally they do review/drill for another 20 or so minutes. I don't find that as terrible as some would say. I still may be wrong but.....

 

Thanks,

 

Penny

 

I have only been taught with Saxon in 8th grade (through Calvert), so I have not taught it myself & don't know what, if anything, was cut out. But in that class/level, all I got was lesson, problems & review. Lesson, problems & review. No manipulatives of course, and no meeting. Just new concept, review & incremental slog. Repeat.

[Critterfixer]

Lesson, problems & review. No manipulatives of course, and no meeting. Just new concept, review & incremental slog. Repeat.

 

Oh, joy.:glare: I'm having flashbacks.

[The Governess]

I'm hoping that vanishes in higher math.:glare: I certainly don't remember doing the meeting in Algebra 1/2. That said, my boys actually like the meeting, mostly because it is a chance to show off. This is one thing that I despise about Saxon 1 that my kids actually like. Growl. But it doesn't seem to take 30 minutes. I could time it for a few days to see, but I'm betting we're through in fifteen. Maybe twenty.

 

Usually we get through a Meeting (Daily-see above growl) and the lesson, the fact sheet and one side of a worksheet and a fact card practice in about an hour to an hour and a half. If the lesson is long, or if diabolically Saxon chooses to have an Assessment AND a lesson on the same day (grounds for stamping and walking out if it was me), I will usually break ranks and do the Assessment and do the lesson the next day.

I have also had days when we would do the meeting and the lesson, call a recess for twenty minutes to go catch crayfish in the creek, and then do the factsheet and the worksheet after that.

 

:lol: I am so with you on the growl. I dropped the meeting after it was obvious that it was all just review that she didn't really need anymore. The repetition was killing me. She still gets some of it at school, I think they usually pick 5 minutes worth and do it three mornings a week. I'll let her teacher growl about it instead. :D

 

Honestly, I can see why they choose Saxon for a classroom basis. A mastery program in a classroom is a bit harder to implement. You have some kids that need more time to master a subject, and while at home you can slow down or speed up to accommodate, you can't really do this in the classroom. Everyone needs to move at the same pace. Still, I will breathe a sigh of relief when I've taught my last lesson of Saxon two next week. :D

[lulubelle]

So far for us with Saxon, the full lessons are longer from mid-Saxon 2 through the end of Saxon 3. It was a rough year and a half (more for me), but it is my sons favorite subject! Then, things really seem to lighten up as our son has just begun 5/4.

 

Really, his spirit was not crushed and my eyes are still in my head :)

[Guest]

Deliriously. I was trying to let the thread die, as per wishes of OP, but...since someone else revived it...

 

I'd like to go at it from another pov. There was once more of a single approach to education--say, 100+ years ago. Rigid, authoritarian, etc.

 

Some people thought that that was the only way children could learn. Experts agreed. WHO were these experts? The children who succeeded under this system.

 

While a prof of physics has certainly been successful under A system of math, I would not say that that makes him a math education expert. He only knows what worked FOR HIM.

 

I had a friend in school who was excellent in math--beyond anything I've ever seen since. But when I needed help in Algebra, he was unable to explain things in a way that I could understand--he was an expert at Algebra, not at teaching. Another friend was much more helpful. I think we confuse experts too often!

 

Wrt Saxon vs Singapore, I don't think anyone on the SM side (it's funny to me that that's the same acronym as the big words for enjoying pain!) has suggested that Saxon doesn't work as some Saxon users have purported of SM. Obviously, there is evidence that both work very well.

 

But I'm on the side that would poke my own eyes out if I had to use Saxon. I tried it for nearly a year w/ ds because SWB gave it her highest rec. I then switched to SM, & when dd was old enough, I pulled out Saxon. Why? I knew she had a different learning style & thought she might prefer Saxon.

 

She might, I don't know. But as it turns out, like pp, I teach better when I'm not blind & bleeding. :lol:

 

I do think SM teaches a kind of logic & reasoning that Saxon does not, but not everyone will require or enjoy that kind of thinking. It would be silly to suggest that this is the only way for everyone. BUT for those of us who have the SM minds, SM is one of the only things I've found that doesn't kill the spirit.

 

Since Montessori & CM...I have a hard time understanding the perpetuation of tears wrt education. But that goes both ways--SM makes some people cry, kids & adults alike. For them, another curric is better. Saxon makes me cry. :lol:

 

While I see your point, I also agree with Bill that our choices are what make our children thinkers. Am I saying that Saxon does not make thinkers? No, I cannot say that, I have never used it. All I am saying is that the way we think, teach, approach concepts is what determines if our kids will become thinkers.

 

I challenge Adrian daily. I rarely (and I mean rarely) spoon feed him an answer on anything. I force him to think. Sometimes is frustrates him but you should see his face light up when he actually does get it on his own.

 

I never had anyone to challenge me like that so I did it myself. The way I studied math was I focused on the lesson. I knew that the teachers in school were just scratching the surface so I took the time to dissect the theory. I only solved one or two problems related to the topic. I did not need anymore than that. I understood the thinking behind it. The why's. Solving a whole bunch of problems over and over would not have offered me anything more. I would blow away everyone in my class during tests including classmates that spent hours and hours of solving related problems in order to learn the mechanics of the specific problems in order to solve the same type of problem when they saw it in a test.

 

I am not saying that children will be better off using one program or another. All I am saying is that we are the ones that make our kids thinkers. We have been using Horizons and Singapore. This year due to being pulled in many other directions I paid too much attention on Horizons and was going slower with Singapore looking to ramp it up after we were done with Horizons. In a way it was a good thing because I had the opportunity to see what Horizon was doing to my boy. It was turning a boy that lived and breathed numbers from a very young age, a boy that saw patterns and shapes everywhere around him, into mechanically solving math. It sucked all the fun out of it for him and was a wake up call for mom. This is the last year we are using Horizons. It is why I know exactly where Bill is coming from :D.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Guest

[Critterfixer]

Still, I will breathe a sigh of relief when I've taught my last lesson of Saxon two next week.

 

Nine more to go in Saxon 1. I will be doing a happy dance.

 

A mastery program in a classroom is a bit harder to implement. You have some kids that need more time to master a subject, and while at home you can slow down or speed up to accommodate, you can't really do this in the classroom. Everyone needs to move at the same pace.

 

That's where I'm at. I'd really love it if my ds7 twins would move at the same pace. Realistically that is never going to be. And truthfully, I wouldn't have it any other way. If ds7 Little Engineer could be doing much higher math than ds7 Creekstomper that's okay by me. So you could say that I need a program that is more adaptable than Saxon in the future.

[mhg]

Quick....whoever's kid solves this the quickest WINS this debate!!!

 

Here's the WORD PROBLEM:

Spongebob always puts 2 slices of tomato on each KrabbyPatty he prepares. Also, for each time Spongebob begs for a certain thread to end on this forum, he earns 1 slice of tomato. Assuming he began with NO tomatoes before he started his begging, how many times would he have to beg to earn enough tomato slices to make 28 KrabbyPatties?

 

For a photo to help provide an image of him in action, click on the link below.

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=spongebob+begging&view=detail&id=3BABF530EA972C0AFF9E081F7250E74D9CB6CB0A&first=0&FORM=IDFRIR

 

 

WORD PROBLEM for K - 2:

Look at the photo and tell how many begs Spongebob has sent up by the time of his photograph if one beg earns him one tomato?

 

_________________________

 

Ok.....who's kid was the quickest?!?!?!?!!

[boscopup]

Ok.....who's kid was the quickest?!?!?!?!!

 

:lol:

 

Not mine, they're at hockey practice. Well, the 2 year old is here, but he only answers "2" to every math question. :D He's quite good! "What is 10 divided by 5?" "What is the square root of 4?"

[Guest]

Quick....whoever's kid solves this the quickest WINS this debate!!!

 

Here's the WORD PROBLEM:

Spongebob always puts 2 slices of tomato on each KrabbyPatty he prepares. Also, for each time Spongebob begs for a certain thread to end on this forum, he earns 1 slice of tomato. Assuming he began with NO tomatoes before he started his begging, how many times would he have to beg to earn enough tomato slices to make 28 KrabbyPatties?

 

For a photo to help provide an image of him in action, click on the link below.

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=spongebob+begging&view=detail&id=3BABF530EA972C0AFF9E081F7250E74D9CB6CB0A&first=0&FORM=IDFRIR

 

 

WORD PROBLEM for K - 2:

Look at the photo and tell how many begs Spongebob has sent up by the time of his photograph if one beg earns him one tomato?

 

_________________________

 

Ok.....who's kid was the quickest?!?!?!?!!

 

:smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

[nmoira]

_________________________

 

Ok.....who's kid was the quickest?!?!?!?!!

Not mine. They can't talk about Sponge Bob without having an extended debate about the lack of buoyancy in the show and re-imagining various scenes with buoyancy (and diffusion, including bodily fluids and waste).

[Guest]

My boy is out in the backyard enjoying the sunshine and making bubbles and observations :D. He is having a great time! I don't think Sponge Bob (not fans here anyway :tongue_smilie:) would interrupt what he is currently doing ;).

[mhg]

No he's not allowed in my home either.....just bear with him for the sake of sarcasm and don't start a SpongeB debate!!!

 

 

(BTW, canucks....I posted this tidbit here before I read your just-prior-to-this-one post in anticipation that many of us aren't

SpongeB fans, so wasn't responding to you specifically with the "dont start a SpongeB debate" comment --- I know it seems like it with this post

coming on the heels of yours! ----------------------------I just can't win for losing on here!!!!)

 

:-)

Edited May 24, 2011 by mhg

[zaichiki]

Deliriously. I was trying to let the thread die, as per wishes of OP, but...since someone else revived it...

 

I'd like to go at it from another pov. There was once more of a single approach to education--say, 100+ years ago. Rigid, authoritarian, etc.

 

Some people thought that that was the only way children could learn. Experts agreed. WHO were these experts? The children who succeeded under this system.

 

While a prof of physics has certainly been successful under A system of math, I would not say that that makes him a math education expert. He only knows what worked FOR HIM.

 

I had a friend in school who was excellent in math--beyond anything I've ever seen since. But when I needed help in Algebra, he was unable to explain things in a way that I could understand--he was an expert at Algebra, not at teaching. Another friend was much more helpful. I think we confuse experts too often!

 

Wrt Saxon vs Singapore, I don't think anyone on the SM side (it's funny to me that that's the same acronym as the big words for enjoying pain!) has suggested that Saxon doesn't work as some Saxon users have purported of SM. Obviously, there is evidence that both work very well.

 

But I'm on the side that would poke my own eyes out if I had to use Saxon. I tried it for nearly a year w/ ds because SWB gave it her highest rec. I then switched to SM, & when dd was old enough, I pulled out Saxon. Why? I knew she had a different learning style & thought she might prefer Saxon.

 

She might, I don't know. But as it turns out, like pp, I teach better when I'm not blind & bleeding. :lol:

 

I do think SM teaches a kind of logic & reasoning that Saxon does not, but not everyone will require or enjoy that kind of thinking. It would be silly to suggest that this is the only way for everyone. BUT for those of us who have the SM minds, SM is one of the only things I've found that doesn't kill the spirit.

 

Since Montessori & CM...I have a hard time understanding the perpetuation of tears wrt education. But that goes both ways--SM makes some people cry, kids & adults alike. For them, another curric is better. Saxon makes me cry. :lol:

 

I agree with Aubrey: we confuse our experts. I also agree with her wrt not trying to say that Saxon doesn't work. And yet again I agree with her: Singapore Math teaches a kind of logic and reasoning that Saxon does not (which doesn't mean that it can't be picked up elsewhere, especially by kids who tend to think that way from the start). And again I agree with her: I'd poke my eyes out if I had to use it.

 

I think Saxon *would* work for my oldest, but that's exactly the reason I don't want to use it. He needs to be encouraged to think *outside* of the box and see various methods/solutions to a problem. He needed to be taught to see how numbers *can* relate to one another. He'd LOVE to "plug and chug," but he'd learn nothing, like me.

 

I got straight A's in math in school, took Calculus in high school, and scored in the 600s on the math section of the SATs, but it was ALL memorization and plug and chug. I understood nada about math. I crashed and burned in Calc in college. I was TOTALLY bewildered.

 

Fast forward to when I started homeschooling my oldest --I LOVED reading Liping Ma's book! I LOVE Singapore Primary Math! I'm learning the *reasons* behind the math that I always knew. I'm seeing new relationships between the numbers. How can I *not* use it? (Still not saying Saxon won't work. It's just not for us.)

[Guest]

No he's not allowed in my home either.....just bear with him for the sake of sarcasm and don't start a SpongeB debate!!!

 

No, no, no... I wasn't going there at all :lol:. If you stick around you will notice that I only ever post in the K-8 curriculum forums and do not engage in any other kind of debate. Actually, I rarely ever engage in any kind of debate. It is very rare you will see me jump into a thread like this that has gotten this long. So trust me, I was not trying to start anything, Sponge Bob related or otherwise.

[Guest]

(BTW, canucks....I posted this tidbit here before I read your just-prior-to-this-one post in anticipation that many of us aren't

SpongeB fans, so wasn't responding to you specifically with the "dont start a SpongeB debate" comment --- I know it seems like it with this post

coming on the heels of yours! ----------------------------I just can't win for losing on here!!!!)

 

:-)

 

:lol: No problem! No harm done so don't beat yourself up on my account :).

[mystika1]

Not hard at all. Buy an extra practice or an IP book. The problems are divided up by content. Assign a few of these problems per week, out of sequence from the textbook and workbook. The standards editions also have extra review pages in the test with lots of extra problems. These are great for slipping in as review, a few at a time. There have been a couple of times where we have had to do this. I customize any curriculum to my student. If you really like the program you could probably make it work. I'm sure I could make Saxon work if I needed to. :D

 

Hi again,

I am doing that now and it is NOT working. For example in the Extra Practice US Edition Book for 2 I have only found 4 pages that deal with time(p 87-90)...not enough for us. Money has a few more pages but still not enough to rotate into a spiral program.

 

Thanks,

 

Penny

Edited May 24, 2011 by mystika1

[mystika1]

Just new concept, review & incremental slog. Repeat.

 

That is kinda funny cause my dd feels that way about Singapore because we stay on one topic only at a time instead of having a variety of topics to work on. :001_smile:

 

Penny

[nmoira]

Hi again,

I am doing that now and it is NOT working. For example in the Extra Practice US Edition Book for 2 I have only found 2 pages that deal with time...not enough for us. Money has a few more pages but still not enough to rotate into a spiral program.

 

Thanks,

 

Penny

I'd purchase those units from Math Mammoth for extra practice.

[Whereneverever]

Hi again,

I am doing that now and it is NOT working. For example in the Extra Practice US Edition Book for 2 I have only found 4 pages that deal with time(p 87-90)...not enough for us. Money has a few more pages but still not enough to rotate into a spiral program.

 

Thanks,

 

Penny

 

That's one of the specific issues that led us away from Singapore. Dd had great sense for how numbers fit and interacted- but none when it came to time, money, calendars, temperature, ect. And I was tired of having to buy other programs to plug those holes.

 

YMMV.

[Penelope]

Hi again,

I am doing that now and it is NOT working. For example in the Extra Practice US Edition Book for 2 I have only found 4 pages that deal with time(p 87-90)...not enough for us. Money has a few more pages but still not enough to rotate into a spiral program.

 

 

Ah, I see. I oversimplified things. And I wasn't thinking, and I own the EP books but haven't looked at them in a long time. Sorry.

 

Maybe SM does need a lot more supplementing for some families. I especially agree about time.

You didn't ask for advice, but time and money are topics I do tend to supplement more, but from daily life. Time in particular, is what, maybe two exercises in the math book? If that is all we did with time, my children indeed would probably not know how to tell time. I guess that's what I tend to think about calendar time and all those other things that Saxon math meeting time is for, though. In a classroom one might assume they are necessary. But at home, maybe not so much.

 

Maybe I'm just rambling because I don't understand Spongebob word problems and am unable to answer. Now change the tomatoes to chicken satay, and we're in business. :auto:

[texasmama]

Maybe I'm just rambling because I don't understand Spongebob word problems and am unable to answer. Now change the tomatoes to chicken satay, and we're in business. :auto:

 

:lol: I posted a beef and chicken satay problem earlier, but no one bit. Now's your chance.;)

[kalanamak]

That's one of the specific issues that led us away from Singapore. Dd had great sense for how numbers fit and interacted- but none when it came to time, money, calendars, temperature, ect. And I was tired of having to buy other programs to plug those holes.

 

YMMV.

 

We just finished 3B, and maybe I won't be able to do this in future, but I don't find it very hard to make up time and measurement questions. Kiddo has needed a LOT more time on time than anything else. I want it to be solid so that when we start doing angles etc, he'll have a primal understanding of degrees.

[zaichiki]

I can see why they choose Saxon for a classroom basis. A mastery program in a classroom is a bit harder to implement. You have some kids that need more time to master a subject, and while at home you can slow down or speed up to accommodate, you can't really do this in the classroom. Everyone needs to move at the same pace.

 

I agree: I bet Saxon is very comfortable for a teacher to use in the classroom.

[Dana]

We just finished 3B, and maybe I won't be able to do this in future, but I don't find it very hard to make up time and measurement questions. Kiddo has needed a LOT more time on time than anything else. I want it to be solid so that when we start doing angles etc, he'll have a primal understanding of degrees.

 

One of the best things I did was take digital clocks OUT of some rooms and put IN analog. Without that, I don't think my son would have learned analog time.

[zaichiki]

One reason I haven't yet used Saxon is b/c I've had a LOT of friends tell me that they don't use the whole book. They spend a LOT of money for a textbook and then do not use the first 20 lessons or so b/c it's review (and they didn't stop for 3 months of summer, so kiddo doesn't need review). They also tend to only assign half of the review problems in each lesson. Some of my friends' kids pre-test and skip whole lessons if the child aces the pre-test. So... why spend all that money if you're going to skip more than half of the book? I can't afford the time and money to do that.

 

We do skip *some* things here and again in Singapore's Primary Math. And we don't use all of the books. We use the text, the workbook, and the Intensive Practice. I found we didn't need the review offered by the extra practice books so I don't buy them. I used to use the CWP books until I realized that the Intensive Practice books include plenty of word problems (and some that are SUPER challenging, like math competition problems).

 

Singapore is cheaper for us. ETA: I took out the bit about the money. In all honestly, $20 here and there doesn't matter. I'd use Singapore even if it was more expensive than it is, which isn't very for us.

Edited May 24, 2011 by zaichiki

[Matryoshka]

We just finished 3B, and maybe I won't be able to do this in future, but I don't find it very hard to make up time and measurement questions.

 

:iagree: I bought them analog wristwatches, they measured things. They used to make up their own calendars to count down to any event they were waiting for. My kids were always way ahead of what was being taught in the books for time, and we used to laugh and consider that an easy day. For temperature, we always talked about it in the car because it had a temperature reading. Then we'd have fun flipping it to Celsius, so my kids have a really good understanding of both systems.

 

Why even use a book for time, calendar or temperature, when it's something you use in real life every day??

[The Governess]

Hi again,

I am doing that now and it is NOT working. For example in the Extra Practice US Edition Book for 2 I have only found 4 pages that deal with time(p 87-90)...not enough for us. Money has a few more pages but still not enough to rotate into a spiral program.

 

Thanks,

 

Penny

 

When we have needed extra practice on a subject, I have just used manipulatives and the activity suggestions from the HIG, and kept at it until she understood the concept. I would use the suggestions to make up extra problems on my own or ask her orally. Then after she got it down we would move on. I would double check at the next review that she was able to answer the questions on that topic correctly, and then we would be done.

 

Usually, by the time dd is doing the workbook problems, she already knows the material because we have done the hands-on activities until I'm sure she has got it. Then I bring out the workbook to translate these skills to pencil-and-paper problems.

[zaichiki]

One of the best things I did was take digital clocks OUT of some rooms and put IN analog. Without that, I don't think my son would have learned analog time.

 

Hey, that's exactly what WE did! :D

[zaichiki]

Why even use a book for time, calendar or temperature, when it's something you use in real life every day??

 

We do a lot in our daily lives with time, calendar (hanging on the wall and the kids write in it -- plus they each have their own in their rooms), and temperature (thermometers EVERYWHERE over here -- plus we raise/brood chicks in our bathroom, so ya gotta be able to read the thermometer!). I haven't needed to add in review in book form.

[Donna]

One reason I haven't yet used Saxon is b/c I've had a LOT of friends tell me that they don't use the whole book. They spend a LOT of money for a textbook and then do not use the first 20 lessons or so b/c it's review (and they didn't stop for 3 months of summer, so kiddo doesn't need review). They also tend to only assign half of the review problems in each lesson. Some of my friends' kids pre-test and skip whole lessons if the child aces the pre-test. So... why spend all that money if you're going to skip more than half of the book? I can't afford the time and money to do that.

 

 

LOL...The money is one of the reasons I haven't thought of going back to Singapore. I got all my Saxon materials used on ebay really cheap and used them for 3 kids...definitely got my money's worth whether I used the entire book or not. (And I am one of the ones who skips the 1st 20 or so lessons because we school year round so don't need review and pick and chose which problems we do in each lesson...I like that they are there to chose from though.)

 

When I initially purchased a level of Singapore, I bought the text, IP, CWP, and I think another book or maybe two (can't remember it was awhile ago but I bought everything for that level). So then I had all these books and it was really annoying to me to not have everything in one book. I never had her do all the problems in all those books so some ended up being just a waste. That one level didn't even last more than a few months and I was looking at having to decide which of those books I was going to buy for the next level. I was kinda glad when dd decided she didn't like all the little drawings in the books and wanted to try Saxon (which we already had) though I would have continued with Singapore if she liked it. I don't really have a bias one way or another and will really go with whatever seems to be working best.

[Dinsfamily]

So, those who say they only do 20 minutes of math a day are really doing a true hour, but broken into pieces?

 

Plus, if Spy Car is afterschooling, doesn't he add the math that his child does at school?

 

We average 30 mins for my 1st grader doing Sing. PM 3A and Horizons 3. We also do Miquon, CWP, and PCM but not all on the same day as PM and Horizons. Miquon is by itself on Fridays and CWP/PCM are used in between PM levels. I could see it taking longer but this kid doesn't need much instruction. He just gets it.

 

ETA: I've read all of this thread and thought I could resist getting sucked in. I have no willpower.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Dinsfamily

[zaichiki]

LOL...The money is one of the reasons I haven't thought of going back to Singapore. I got all my Saxon materials used on ebay really cheap and used them for 3 kids...definitely got my money's worth whether I used the entire book or not. (And I am one of the ones who skips the 1st 20 or so lessons because we school year round so don't need review and pick and chose which problems we do in each lesson...I like that they are there to chose from though.)

 

When I initially purchased a level of Singapore, I bought the text, IP, CWP, and I think another book or maybe two (can't remember it was awhile ago but I bought everything for that level). So then I had all these books and it was really annoying to me to not have everything in one book. I never had her do all the problems in all those books so some ended up being just a waste. That one level didn't even last more than a few months and I was looking at having to decide which of those books I was going to buy for the next level. I was kinda glad when dd decided she didn't like all the little drawings in the books and wanted to try Saxon (which we already had) though I would have continued with Singapore if she liked it. I don't really have a bias one way or another and will really go with whatever seems to be working best.

 

I guess it's not the money so much. Nor the inefficiency of skipping so much... (though maybe that's what gets me) I think I might really doubt myself if I had to skip so much in order to make the curriculum fit my child. I would probably worry that I was skipping TOO much.

 

I'm not knocking Saxon, really. I considered it. (Although I was also put off a bit when my child placed so high in their sequence -- it felt abnormally high -- like maybe their sequence was not rigorous enough...) But I don't know enough about it, honestly. I'd probably look at it again before I wrote it off completely. Does it really teach math the way I want my kids to approach it, though? I guess that's the real core of the issue.

 

My kids like the smaller, lighter books of Singapore. They don't feel so overwhelming. We don't bring them all out at one time... and sometimes we travel with just one. It's easy to stuff one in a backpack.

 

On a lighter note -- my youngest LOVES the Singapore books. I kid you not. She'll tear through entire bins of homeschool books/texts until she finds someone's Singapore. Then, she pulls it out and sits on the rug, turning the pages one by one. She is entranced! (A friend's 1 year old does the exact same thing! We are amazed that these two little ones can tell the difference between Singapore and any other book. They purposefully look for them and find them even when they are moved around. It must be the feel of the pages or something. Many of them, especially at the older levels, have very few pictures. So I don't think it's the pictures. Anyway, I have to get a picture of her with the books!)

Edited May 24, 2011 by zaichiki

[Dinsfamily]

:lol:

 

Not mine, they're at hockey practice. Well, the 2 year old is here, but he only answers "2" to every math question. :D He's quite good! "What is 10 divided by 5?" "What is the square root of 4?"

 

Mine answers 4. That's the age he needs to be to chew gum so he's a little fixated on it. He's all over how many quarters are in a dollar!

[Critterfixer]

Spongebob always puts 2 slices of tomato on each KrabbyPatty he prepares. Also, for each time Spongebob begs for a certain thread to end on this forum, he earns 1 slice of tomato. Assuming he began with NO tomatoes before he started his begging, how many times would he have to beg to earn enough tomato slices to make 28 KrabbyPatties?

 

 

But did he forget about the pickles?

[zaichiki]

Mine answers 4. That's the age he needs to be to chew gum so he's a little fixated on it.

 

My kids need to be 6 to chew gum. (I'm a little paranoid about them choking. heh heh) But I let them sleep in bunk beds when they're 3. Gee, I'm a little screwed up, huh? :lol:

[Dinsfamily]

My kids need to be 6 to chew gum. (I'm a little paranoid about them choking. heh heh) But I let them sleep in bunk beds when they're 3. Gee, I'm a little screwed up, huh? :lol:

 

Not at all! My 2.5 yo started climbing up in his brother's bunk bed at 6mo. We had to take the ladder down each morning. He can play up there now but no sleeping yet. I used to be firm about no gum or popcorn til 5 but I'm getting lax. I let them take a gum test at 4. My middle guy failed it and had to wait til 5. What's this thread about again? :lol:

[Guest]

:iagree: I bought them analog wristwatches, they measured things. They used to make up their own calendars to count down to any event they were waiting for. My kids were always way ahead of what was being taught in the books for time, and we used to laugh and consider that an easy day. For temperature, we always talked about it in the car because it had a temperature reading. Then we'd have fun flipping it to Celsius, so my kids have a really good understanding of both systems.

 

Why even use a book for time, calendar or temperature, when it's something you use in real life every day??

 

:iagree: Same here with Horizons :lol:. Those were the easy days because we knew all that already (most of it anyway) and covered it in our daily lives. We have lots of manipulatives (a Judy clock and several other kinds, play money, indoor/ outdoor thermometer etc.) and when Adrian is not doing school he just gets busy playing with his manipulatives and making his own connections. I think certain things it is assumed that they are taught at home also.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Guest