Is it just me?....(Saxon vs. Singpore issue)

[Guest]

I agree. You might ask him how, if mastery programs do not work, Singapore managed/manages to consistently rank at the top of the TIMSS (international math test) for so many years.

 

... and also how SM is now used in the public school system in the US :D! If Saxon has been so successful, why the need for another program?

[LisaKinVA]

All I can say, is that I am not, nor would want to be the kind mom with a very bright 5yo child in outright meltdown tears as soon as he sees the Saxon math textbook come out... that forces him to "stick with it" because "he'll like it someday."

 

That was awful. This child lit up like a Christmas Tree when we brought in Singapore... and is now enjoying Life of Fred Pre-Algebra on his way to Foerster's Algebra 1, with a side of AoPS.

 

My other children have never seen (nor will probably ever see) a Saxon text book, and my oldest DD has hit the "ceiling" on every standardized test she has taken in math (ITBS, CAT, VA-SOL, ScanTron adaptable).

 

This doesn't mean that Saxon is not a solid math program. It is simply a very, very poor fit for my children. And, just as I would *never* tell a parent of a child doing well with Saxon to switch... I'm not going to pick and stick with a curricula that was (imho) causing emotional & mental distress to my child, and leading him to loathe math... simply because it is a "great" program for a large number of other children.

 

As another poster says... the repetition is IN the math we use. I don't need more of it simply to have "more."

[Guest]

And, just as I would *never* tell a parent of a child doing well with Saxon to switch... I'm not going to pick and stick with a curricula that was (imho) causing emotional & mental distress to my child, and leading him to loathe math... simply because it is a "great" program for a large number of other children.

 

:iagree: Well said!

[boscopup]

You simply can't learn math in 20 minutes a day. I have read so many people on this forum state that they would skip the meeting book, skip the first 35 lessons or so, and then two years later they would have to go back and repeat or at least supplement with another program. That confirms my thesis.

 

I wouldn't base any kind of "research" on a discussion forum like this. First, most people that post on the subject are the ones that something isn't working for. There are probably many more for which something is working. Second, you're basing this 20 minutes a day theory on Saxon users only. So even if you had proved anything, it would only be that Saxon users can't do it in 20 minutes a day (and I'd even debate that, because I'm sure there are some Saxon users out there that can successfully get all their lessons done in that amount of time in the K-3 range... high school math should take longer, however).

 

Saxon is designed in such a way that skipping things isn't necessarily the best idea. That's why many folks with kids gifted in math don't use Saxon. They need a curriculum where they can skip things the child already knows. Such children often get bored by unnecessary repetition. My example earlier of the math facts page while the homework sheet still had "Color 5 blocks. How many are not colored?" (which my 4 year old can do :tongue_smilie:) very much illustrates this. My 6 year old was bored to death with these problems that he had mastered (in preschool). He didn't need to continue working on counting the blocks. He could already add. That exercise was absolutely useless for him. Addition builds on the ability to count the blocks. If he couldn't count the blocks, he likewise wouldn't be able to add. Some skills require mastery of the previous skill, so you don't need to continually review it and review it and review it. A curriculum that is 90% review and 10% new topic is torture to a gifted child (and many non-gifted children :tongue_smilie:).

 

I'm not at all saying that Saxon is bad. Saxon is excellent for some children and some families. But it is not a curriculum that works for every child (there is no such curriculum), and it's generally not one that you see recommended for accelerated students, since it's more difficult to accelerate it.

 

You can absolutely teach some children in 20 minutes a day though. In fact, a couple years ago, my son (5 years old at the time) made a comment about how you couldn't subtract 5 from 3. I said "Well, actually, yes you can." I then drew a number line and showed him how negative numbers worked. We probably spent 10 minutes or less discussing it. Two years later (having NEVER worked a single problem on paper involving this topic), he can easily do addition and subtraction with negative numbers (though I didn't teach him things like "3 - (-2)", so he wouldn't be able to do that without another 5 minute discussion at least ;)). You can say "What's 12 - 18?" and he'll tell you -6. Instantly. So yes, at least my child can learn something in less than 20 minutes, and I'll bet there are many, many, many children on this forum that could do likewise.

[AngelBee]

:lurk5:

[LittleIzumi]

I was taught with Saxon for a while. I'm not mathy but I grasp concepts quickly. I could do it but I disliked it and I immediately forgot all of it. There wasn't enough concept & application to make it stick. I forgot the algorithms & that was it. Using Singapore & MEP with my dds, I WISH WISH WISH I had that growing up. It makes sense. I think I wouldn't be math-phobic if I learned with these other methods. They work much better for me & how I think, and my dds also benefit greatly from these programs & would despise Saxon. It works well for some people but not for us.

[Snowfall]

But he clearly (mis)characterized a mastery approach as lacking sufficient repetition to learn math as if concepts are learned in isolation and have no relationship to each other.

 

Really! It's not like when we did a lesson on calculating perimeter, we needed to also do a section of basic addition problems. You are doing addition when you calculate the perimeter of a triangle. And if she's doing a page of 2 digit addition, why should we also be doing a page of single digit addition? Or if we're counting back change, why should she be doing a page of single digit subtraction also? I don't understand. My dd needs some review - more than some other children, I know - but not like that, not the way I see people say Saxon reviews concepts. My kid needs review more for remembering how to read a clock or which coins are worth what. We have used Horizons worksheets now and then as a nice spiral supplement, but even then, I end up crossing off half the problems, as they're just too easy.

[lauracolumbus]

 

Saxon is designed in such a way that skipping things isn't necessarily the best idea. That's why many folks with kids gifted in math don't use Saxon. They need a curriculum where they can skip things the child already knows. Such children often get bored by unnecessary repetition.

 

I find this is true of any curriculum, Saxon, MM, MUS, and other non-math curricula, which is why we often do two different programs for several subjects. We skipped the heck out of FLL 1/2, but I wouldn't want to have missed the whole program. Same w/R&S grammar.

 

Now that my two older dc are in higher level Saxon (Alg 1 and 1/2), we don't skip, but my dd7 is doing 5/4 and I skip things I know she knows and we do quite a bit orally so that she can still go outside and play. I do the same thing when she uses MUS and MM.

 

I just think it's crazy for someone to attack another person's math curriculum. It's ok if Saxon would drive your dc crazy. It sounds like it gives other kids a comfort level they need. I've tried many, liked some, and may return to others. I wish we could get into Singapore (and maybe I'll keep trying b/c it might just be an operator error).

 

Laura

Edited May 23, 2011 by lauracolumbus

[mhg]

Perhaps the tutorees he meets have deluded mothers who thought that something like SM was a way to "get out of work". Didn't work out that way, sent kid to tutor.

 

OP used Saxon math as a teen. OP wants to use it for her kid. OP wants to make sure her decision is right, posts polls, tries to figure out about this big undertaking called homeschooling (all very understandable). OP can't believe everyone doesn't agree, asks Is it Just Me or ...., and emails her old teacher who used (surprise) Saxon. Old teacher agrees, but some of us think he sounds like an old crank who even seems a bit anti-homeschool.

 

The "wreckful siege of battering days" softens the black/white views of most people, but if it doesn't (or until it does), my knickers are only twisted because I am :lol: at the whole thread. Naughty me!

 

You got 99% of this right about me (the OP). I'll clear up the 1%.

1. I did use Saxon as a teen and was leaning towards it with my own but did want to see what was newer (and potentially better) than Saxon.

I AM open to new ideas and haven't even ruled out Singapore!!! I agree that there's no questions that the Asians (as a whole) do better on math skills than we do here in America so they definitely do something right, thus my own consideration of Signapore.

2. This teacher didn't use Saxon in high school. He taught Physics and Chemistry and an advanced mathematics course which he WROTE himself (and is published).

3. This teacher HIGHLY supports homeschooling and thinks its the best way to go given what passes for education in MUCH (not all) of our country. 2 out of his 5 kids homeschool their kids and 2 of them aren't in a position to be able to do so given their jobs and the other one I know nothing about.

4. I did write/email to him about whether he was familiar with the other math curricula and he says he is and has to be as he has tutored kids using all sorts for years.

5. He did say that, done right, any of the curricula would lead to mastery, but the RISK is when you have a parent who attempts to avoid the RIGORS (the hum-drum, boring, "teary" part) of SOME (not all) of the math skills. It was THIS ASPECT of the MASTERY programs that are risky as they TEND to lend themselves to clustering the skills in a shorter period of time. He didn't SAY ONE math program or another was the WORST for this. He was speaking in a general sense that -- IF A PROGRAM attempts to ease the rigors and make math fun and easy and only 20 minutes a day, etc., then it is USUALLY one that places a kid AT RISK for not keeping the skills long term. Again, he didn't mention any of the "other" (non-Saxon) as definitely doing this. He just knows Saxon DOESN'T Do this. Perhaps, an earlier post-er is correct in that he DOESN'T understand the "mastery" concept at all. (I regret I even posted it, quite frankly).

6. To bolster than anti-Saxon folks (and to be fair) , he did say that he occasionally sees a kid (esp boys) that are just too fidgety for Saxon and that it just will NOT hold their attention and that other programs might be a better fit.

7. This whole thread has gotten out of control. I only wanted to see what other (non-Saxon) maths were like (as I've never put my hands on one) to see why I see the increased supplementation. I'm 1000% sure that given 100 students (who applied themselves 100% to THAT course of study) that grow up on Singapore and 100 students (who applied themselves 100% to THAT course of study) that grew up on Saxon, if one controlled for all other variables, that they'd likely do equally as well on standardized tests in the future. The programs (intrinsically) are likely equally as well at preparing a kid for math. My only reason for hopping in mini-debate was that I do indeed take issue at a few of the comments (outright and implied) that have 1.) knocked Saxon for taking 2 hours a day (when so many faithful users swear this isn't the case) and 2.) that a child can gain a mastery of math in doing math only 20 minutes a day 3.) that the rigors/boring WORK of math skills can be eliminated where there's never a time of dread/boredom from our little darlings. To me, that's like saying we're going to grow our own big vegetable garden and enjoy loads of fruits and veggies all year and never have times of dread and misery out in the heat while weeding. You can't get something for nothing. You can't learn to play piano in only 20 minutes a day (not too well in MOST cases).

 

So....FOR ME, I'm not so much pro-Saxon and I'm against anti-Saxon. It's fine if you've tried Saxon and it just apparently didn't click or go well with your kids and you went another route. That's very understandable. A person isn't detracting from their child's math education if he/she goes with a non-Saxon curricula. Again....I'm not so much pro-Saxon as I don't like the bashing of it. And, I suspect many of you feel the same way about your own curricula......you likely really don't care what a person uses themselves or WHY they quit using what you use SO LONG as they don't BASH your choice based on their own experience with it.

 

Long live Singapore! Long live Saxon! Long live Math Mammoth! Love live RightStart! Long Live MUS! Love live _______ (insert yours here)!

 

So....let's all let this one die a (natural) death, eh?

 

I'm SOOOOOOO sorry I posted my old teacher's 2 cents. I only meant to defend the point about things needed to be revisited/reviewed over time (and my likely assumption is that all math curricula do this!!!!!)...so I shouldn't have posted it and his comments (out of context) could be offensive --- I did it hastily and without enough thought and I'm sorry.

[twoxcell]

But let me be clear: if your math lessons only last 20 minutes, your dc is not learning math.

 

What a rude and ridiculous statement:lol:! If you want to use Saxon knock yourself out. I honestly do not care what anyone else uses as long as they are teaching their children. We are using and loving Singapore math and there is plenty of repetition for us. I will let you know at the end of next school year if my son has actually learned math.

[texasmama]

FWIW, we spend more than 20 minutes a day on Singapore here. I would imagine that most folks who do the typical A and B programs of one level per 36 week school year do the same at levels 3 and higher, particularly if they are using the "extra" books - IP, CWP, EP. I am not one to time math lessons, but I would hazzard an estimate of more than 20 minutes a day spent on math, on average.

[mhg]

If I post a photo of my own rear, then will this thread finally END!?

 

 

:smash:

THIS THREAD

[Barb_]

If I post a photo of my own rear, then will this thread finally END!?

 

 

:smash:

THIS THREAD

 

Only if it's a bikini. Good or bad, it's guaranteed to stop conversation or possibly tip it into Kilt Talk.

 

Didn't you know the Math Wars have been happening here since 1999??

 

:lol:

 

ETA: Although I really am giggling to myself at the "you can't learn math in 20 minutes" statement myself. Sigh. I remember when I was so incredibly sure of myself.

[mhg]

Had NO idea about the math wars..as I'm a bit new. I'd have PM'd my original question if I'd have known.

 

What other topics do I need to avoid? (PM your response lest that stir up another flare).....now, off to find that bikini pic.......

[Barb_]

Had NO idea about the math wars..as I'm a bit new. I'd have PM'd my original question if I'd have known.

 

What other topics do I need to avoid? (PM your response lest that stir up another flare).....now, off to find that bikini pic.......

 

LOL, whatever you do, do NOT mention whether or not you require guests to remove their shoes when entering your home. Um, and whether or not you return your shopping carts to the cart corral can become a little tetchy as well.

 

:lol:

[texasmama]

If I post a photo of my own rear, then will this thread finally END!?

 

 

:smash:

THIS THREAD

 

No, but it might if you post one of your dh in a kilt...only if he is really handsome, though.;)

 

Actually, posting nudity(your rear) might get you banned. That probably sounds pretty good right now, though.:lol:

 

(Don't worry...it will pass. One of my intial posts on this board was an inquiry about math, and I had to put on my flame proof suit to read the responses. I wanted to shout, "I am ignorant and new to this, not stupid! There is a difference. Ignorance can be fixed, while stupidity is permanent. I'm the former and not the latter. REALLY!")

[AngelBee]

LOL, whatever you do, do NOT mention whether or not you require guests to remove their shoes when entering your home. Um, and whether or not you return your shopping carts to the cart corral can become a little tetchy as well.

 

:lol:

Could be worse. You could have been called a troll. :001_huh:

 

:lol:

[kalanamak]

Had NO idea about the math wars..as I'm a bit new. I'd have PM'd my original question if I'd have known.

 

What other topics do I need to avoid? (PM your response lest that stir up another flare).....now, off to find that bikini pic.......

 

Crockpots!

[Barb_]

Crockpots!

 

:::smacks forhead::: duh-oh! How could I forget??

[twoxcell]

Or we could just talk about all the things your child could not possibly learn in 20 minutes a day. Shhh, just don't tell Charlotte Mason!

[mhg]

No, but it might if you post one of your dh in a kilt...only if he is really handsome, though.;)

 

Actually, posting nudity(your rear) might get you banned. That probably sounds pretty good right now, though.:lol:

 

(Don't worry...it will pass. One of my intial posts on this board was an inquiry about math, and I had to put on my flame proof suit to read the responses. I wanted to shout, "I am ignorant and new to this, not stupid! There is a difference. Ignorance can be fixed, while stupidity is permanent. I'm the former and not the latter. REALLY!")

 

 

Even Saxon prepared me for calculating the statistical probability of my getting BANNED were I to post a photo of my nude buttocks.

 

And, the return of carts!....let's NOT go there! (I have a few conscience scars in this area, esp from my son's ages of 0 - 18 months). I'm a 90% returner, 10% securer-so-cant-roll-into-someone's-car!

[Guest]

:lol: When I am researching a program I usually do a search on here and find old threads. I hate conflict, although I have participated in some :tongue_smilie:. I am just the live and let live type. There's plenty of room for all of us on here :).

[Guest]

Or we could just talk about all the things your child could not possibly learn in 20 minutes a day. Shhh, just don't tell Charlotte Mason!

 

:lol: This made me chuckle.

[mhg]

:lol: When I am researching a program I usually do a search on here and find old threads. I hate conflict, although I have participated in some :tongue_smilie:. I am just the live and let live type. There's plenty of room for all of us on here :).

 

Awwwwww....the kids are in bed and the good moods are surfacing!

I can feel the heal on here!

 

:grouphug:

 

Now...let's organize a Math Camp for all of us in the Smokies!!!!

(:lol:)

[texasmama]

Okay, OP, you have a sense of humor and a thick skin. You're in.;)

[mystika1]

 

I just think it's crazy for someone to attack another person's math curriculum. It's ok if Saxon would drive your dc crazy. It sounds like it gives other kids a comfort level they need.

 

:hurray: :iagree:

[LittleIzumi]

Okay, OP, you have a sense of humor and a thick skin. You're in.;)

:iagree:

[Teachin'Mine]

Ooooh am I too late or can I just mention that we love Saxon. :lol:

 

I wouldn't even think about sharing my thoughts on crockpots and shopping carts though. :001_huh:

[AngelBee]

I wouldn't even think about sharing my thoughts on crockpots and shopping carts though. :001_huh:

:lol:

[nmoira]

 

I wouldn't even think about sharing my thoughts on crockpots

I've been without a slow cooker for a few years' date=' but I saw a recipe for slow-cooker bacon jam last week that's making me reconsider. Edited May 23, 2011 by nmoira

[Nestof3]

Really! It's not like when we did a lesson on calculating perimeter, we needed to also do a section of basic addition problems. You are doing addition when you calculate the perimeter of a triangle. And if she's doing a page of 2 digit addition, why should we also be doing a page of single digit addition? Or if we're counting back change, why should she be doing a page of single digit subtraction also? I don't understand. My dd needs some review - more than some other children, I know - but not like that, not the way I see people say Saxon reviews concepts. My kid needs review more for remembering how to read a clock or which coins are worth what. We have used Horizons worksheets now and then as a nice spiral supplement, but even then, I end up crossing off half the problems, as they're just too easy.

 

I think as a one-on-one tutor, the benefit of this is to know if the problem with calculating perimeter is that the difficulty may lie with not understanding perimeter rather than not knowing how to add.

 

Overall, though, this is exactly why I handpick problems.

 

You would be surprised, though, how children can do do a problem if presented one way but not another.

 

I would have to say, though, if a child really knows the math presented in Saxon well, it should not take two hours to complete an assignment (unless child is goofing off like crazy). I would say that the parent needs to find out which problems are taking a long time and which are not. I would then suggest revisiting the lessons for the difficult problems and dropping some of the "never get wrong" problems.

 

I guess I feel like I am in control of my child's education. I have the audacity to think I can do this without being slave to a book. I've successfully homeschooled a child from 4th to college, using Saxon no less.

 

I am also quite certain that my friend who teaches advanced calculus to private-school highschoolers (After completing two degrees including electrical engineering, he had a stroke leaving him blind. So, now he teaches) took neither Saxon nor Singapore math. Perhaps I need to let him know that he really doesn't know math afterall. ;)

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

If I post a photo of my own rear, then will this thread finally END!?

 

 

:smash:

THIS THREAD

 

:lol:

 

Okay, OP, you have a sense of humor and a thick skin. You're in.;)

 

WSS!

 

:smilielol5:

[Aubrey]

Shoot. I read it all before posting, & now I've missed it all. :glare:

 

Then I'll just leave it at *sigh* I LOVE a good math brawl. If we could do this instead of parties, I'd be in *heaven.*

[Snowfall]

I guess I feel like I am in control of my child's education. I have the audacity to think I can do this without being slave to a book. I've successfully homeschooled a child from 4th to college, using Saxon no less.

 

I completely agree, and having never seen Saxon, I just want to re-re-re-reiterate (lol) that I'm not criticizing it. I'm just defending the idea that other methods can work too and saying that it doesn't sound like Saxon would work for US. My dd gets really angry if something looks too easy, so it sounds like Saxon would just tick her off with all the review. It's a very delicate balance with her - not too easy, not too hard or else all heck breaks loose. :lol:

[lovelaughs_times_three]

Shoot. I read it all before posting, & now I've missed it all. :glare:

 

Then I'll just leave it at *sigh* I LOVE a good math brawl. If we could do this instead of parties, I'd be in *heaven.*

 

I have to say, it has been entertaining!!! :D I'm new here, and I didn't realize how passionate cyberspace could be!!! But, I shouldn't be surprised! It is the passion that we have that is making us all GREAT teachers for our kids! I really think it is as much the PASSION that we bring to our Math (and other subjects) that is helping our kids succeed, as much as the choice of curriculum. We are teaching, by our example, that Math (and other subjects) is important.

 

We definitely have passion!!! ;)

[Spock]

I am surprised to hear of Singapore getting done in 20 or 30 minutes. There have been lessons that were that short for us. Like a unit on time or measurement where there wasn't anything he didn't already know. But if math really only took 20 minutes per day, every day, I'd think that we might be missing something, or could go a little deeper or do more.

 

But I do make my child do lots of review throughout the year, and periodic practice with problems that he already knows how to do. I'm mean that way. :lol: I think there is something to be said for the Saxon emphasis on developing automaticity.

 

We finish Singapore in 20 minutes--sort of. We have a 20 minute Primary Math class (textbook and workbook for the day). Then we have grammar or reading or Spanish. Then, we have a 20 minute Intensive Practice (or Challenging Word Problems) class. Then we have history or science or dictation. Then, we have a 15-20 minute math facts drill class.

 

So, if you add up all the math for the day, we spend about an hour on it. However, since we divide it up into 3 separate classes, we think of Singapore as only taking 20-30 minutes.

[Spock]

I just wanted to tell you that I have done Singapore entirely for my older son. I did start to supplement for 6th and 7th grade. I did the Challenging Word Problems. I regret not doing this program sooner. My younger son supplemented Singapore Math with Life of Fred. My older son finished NEM 1 from Singapore Math. We found Saxon Algebra 1/2. My older son started doing it. He is up to lesson 34. He has gotten every single problem correct so far. He has found Saxon so far sooo easy.

 

NEM 1 covers all of pre-algebra, part of Algebra 1, and part of Geometry. If he finished all of NEM 1, he probably should have started at least Algebra 1 from Saxon, not Algebra 1/2. (And part of Algebra 1 will be review).

 

My second son had this problem. He finished all of NEM 1 and part of NEM 2, and I had a very hard time placing him in other programs. Nearly all of Algebra 1 and Geometry from any other publisher was a review, but there were a handful of topics he hadn't covered since he didn't finish NEM 2.

 

He ended up moving quickly through Algebra 1 and Geometry from one publisher before moving to their Algebra 2 the next year.

[Spock]

 

You simply can't learn math in 20 minutes a day. I have read so many people on this forum state that they would skip the meeting book, skip the first 35 lessons or so, and then two years later they would have to go back and repeat or at least supplement with another program. That confirms my thesis.

 

This only give evidence supporting the thesis that Saxon math cannot be learned by spending shorter time periods. It does not address users of other materials. It also cannot confirm your thesis, because there could be other factors in play--perhaps the Saxon instruction did not fit well with the child's learning style, or perhaps the parent overestimated how thoroughly the child had learned the material.

 

In my original post, I affirmed the value of Saxon. I never placed value on this or that approach or this curriculum or that curriculum. If dc is in the public school they are already doing more than 20 minutes a day and if you supplement then you are approaching the 1 hour mark already. I only stated that math cannot be properly learned on 20 minutes a day.

 

My oldest son IS a child who needed many problems of the same sort and lots of practice in order to learn math. He really couldn't learn with only 20 minutes a day.

 

My second son, on the other hand, learned math easily and well with only 15-30 minutes per day, all the way from kindergarten math through pre-calculus.

 

My two younger students are somewhere in the middle.

[Spy Car]

I'm 1000% sure that given 100 students (who applied themselves 100% to THAT course of study) that grow up on Singapore and 100 students (who applied themselves 100% to THAT course of study) that grew up on Saxon, if one controlled for all other variables, that they'd likely do equally as well on standardized tests in the future. The programs (intrinsically) are likely equally as well at preparing a kid for math.

 

For Aubrey' sake let's examine these assertions for a moment.

 

First there is a precondition that students apply themselves 100% to THAT course of study. Fair enough condition, but what does it mean in practice?

 

Whether Saxon takes 2 hours a day (as some proponents claim) or less (as other users insist) and whether it is absolutely imperative to do every problem and every part of the Saxon program or the whole thing collapses (again, as some proponents of Saxon claim) or if you can skip parts (as other users claim) and still do well, there is no doubt this is a program that has a massive amount of procedural repitition, incremental introduction of concepts, a shortage of critical thinking exercises and few would call it an efficient (or joy inspiring) math program.

 

To use this program as written would kill my son's spirit, and it would do the same to me. Good grief!

 

But let's assume 100% effort to get us to a position where the results on standardized test would be just as good as a 100% effort with Singapore. OK, so what? When did teaching to a standardized test competence become the goal of a classical education?

 

I have no doubts about how a student raise on Singapore will do on test scores, they will excel. I would also expect a child raised on Saxon would do well on standardized tests. But again, are test scores our measure of education? Or not?

 

An important goal (for me any way) is to raise a child who can take his skills far beyond the sorts of problems found in standardized tests. I want a thinker who can take on the cretive type work found in the "Art of Proplem Solving" materials, and who enjoys the subject as a creative intellectual endeavor, not just a kid who can competently plug numbers into a known formula and get "the answer." There is a profound difference here.

 

And it extends beyond math. If the math program a child (and parent) uses gets them to begin using logic, and reasoning skills in an age appropriate skills from the beginning then they develop this part of their mind in an on-going fashion.

 

Children (despite what Dorthy Sayers might postulate) don't suddenly wake up one day and become "logical beings." Logical thinking is a skill that can (and should) be cultivated in developmentally appropriate ways throughout childhood, and math is an outstanding subject to help accomplish this mission.

 

Remove reasoning, and hard cognitive work from a field of study and you are left with a pretty shallow subject.

 

My only reason for hopping in mini-debate was that I do indeed take issue at a few of the comments (outright and implied) that have 1.) knocked Saxon for taking 2 hours a day (when so many faithful users swear this isn't the case) and 2.) that a child can gain a mastery of math in doing math only 20 minutes a day 3.) that the rigors/boring WORK of math skills can be eliminated where there's never a time of dread/boredom from our little darlings. To me, that's like saying we're going to grow our own big vegetable garden and enjoy loads of fruits and veggies all year and never have times of dread and misery out in the heat while weeding. You can't get something for nothing. You can't learn to play piano in only 20 minutes a day (not too well in MOST cases).

 

But you are conflating time with learning. Endlessly repeating procedures takes time but it isn't necessarily the best way to promote "learning."

 

There is a false assumption here that whole-parts math programs (like Singapore) are easy, or that there is work to be avoided, when in fact this is opposite of the case.

 

A small example is in the tremendous amount of early work that goes into learning re-grouping strategies to solve basic addition and subtraction problems. The students (and their teachers) have to WORK to reason though and master these strategies. It has a cognitive load on the mind; it is brain-exercise, if you will.

 

Contrast this with only memorizing "math facts." This road is the lazy way. It short-cuts the hard spade-work that a program like Singapore requires, and no amount of repetition turns a low-level brain activity (recall of memorized "facts") into a high-level cognitive activity. No, it simply inures a child's mind to treating math as an intellectually uninteresting (boring) activity.

 

One can teach topics well and deeply from the outset, so a child will say: "I get it." And then you reenforce it by going deeper, as Jen and others have said the reinforcement is IN the math.

 

I'm SOOOOOOO sorry I posted my old teacher's 2 cents. I only meant to defend the point about things needed to be revisited/reviewed over time (and my likely assumption is that all math curricula do this!!!!!)...so I shouldn't have posted it and his comments (out of context) could be offensive --- I did it hastily and without enough thought and I'm sorry.

 

Others have address this, so I will keep it short. Your old math teacher's comments shows that he profoundly misunderstands the way a program like Singapore is used. If any is "delusional" about math education it is he.

 

Happy Aubrey? :D

 

Bill

Edited May 23, 2011 by Spy Car

[melmichigan]

Okay, OP, you have a sense of humor and a thick skin. You're in.;)

 

:iagree:

[Penelope]

We finish Singapore in 20 minutes--sort of. We have a 20 minute Primary Math class (textbook and workbook for the day). Then we have grammar or reading or Spanish. Then, we have a 20 minute Intensive Practice (or Challenging Word Problems) class. Then we have history or science or dictation. Then, we have a 15-20 minute math facts drill class.

 

So, if you add up all the math for the day, we spend about an hour on it. However, since we divide it up into 3 separate classes, we think of Singapore as only taking 20-30 minutes.

 

Yes, that's what I mean. First grade or K in 20 minutes, sure. But in 3 and 4 at least, we need to spend more time than that. We do much but not all of the WB, most of the IP, and substitute IP for WB for the simpler topics. We also do most all of the CWP, mostly over the summer. When we do have too many days (or weeks) in a row where ds is racing through math, I know that I need to up the challenge. Either move a little faster, add some interesting topics, something. We are adding some geometry this summer, for fun.

[Tammyla]

:auto: Polling on the number of hours spent per day can also be dangerous.

 

LOL, whatever you do, do NOT mention whether or not you require guests to remove their shoes when entering your home. Um, and whether or not you return your shopping carts to the cart corral can become a little tetchy as well.

 

:lol:

 

Crockpots!

 

:::smacks forhead::: duh-oh! How could I forget??

[Tammyla]

:lol:Snort....Yes, Aubrey...You must read each and every reply before commenting:lol:.

 

Shoot. I read it all before posting, & now I've missed it all. :glare:

 

Then I'll just leave it at *sigh* I LOVE a good math brawl. If we could do this instead of parties, I'd be in *heaven.*

[lovelaughs_times_three]

The thread that just wouldn't die.....:svengo:

 

:D Here's to passionate Math!!

[Aubrey]

Happy Aubrey? :D

 

Bill

 

Deliriously. I was trying to let the thread die, as per wishes of OP, but...since someone else revived it...

 

I'd like to go at it from another pov. There was once more of a single approach to education--say, 100+ years ago. Rigid, authoritarian, etc.

 

Some people thought that that was the only way children could learn. Experts agreed. WHO were these experts? The children who succeeded under this system.

 

While a prof of physics has certainly been successful under A system of math, I would not say that that makes him a math education expert. He only knows what worked FOR HIM.

 

I had a friend in school who was excellent in math--beyond anything I've ever seen since. But when I needed help in Algebra, he was unable to explain things in a way that I could understand--he was an expert at Algebra, not at teaching. Another friend was much more helpful. I think we confuse experts too often!

 

Wrt Saxon vs Singapore, I don't think anyone on the SM side (it's funny to me that that's the same acronym as the big words for enjoying pain!) has suggested that Saxon doesn't work as some Saxon users have purported of SM. Obviously, there is evidence that both work very well.

 

But I'm on the side that would poke my own eyes out if I had to use Saxon. I tried it for nearly a year w/ ds because SWB gave it her highest rec. I then switched to SM, & when dd was old enough, I pulled out Saxon. Why? I knew she had a different learning style & thought she might prefer Saxon.

 

She might, I don't know. But as it turns out, like pp, I teach better when I'm not blind & bleeding. :lol:

 

I do think SM teaches a kind of logic & reasoning that Saxon does not, but not everyone will require or enjoy that kind of thinking. It would be silly to suggest that this is the only way for everyone. BUT for those of us who have the SM minds, SM is one of the only things I've found that doesn't kill the spirit.

 

Since Montessori & CM...I have a hard time understanding the perpetuation of tears wrt education. But that goes both ways--SM makes some people cry, kids & adults alike. For them, another curric is better. Saxon makes me cry. :lol:

[Snowfall]

Since Montessori & CM...I have a hard time understanding the perpetuation of tears wrt education.

 

I agree. I think it's sad that anyone would make light of kids crying over their education, as if looking for a program that doesn't cause tears is somehow doing a disservice to kids. :( Like a lot of things, this has also been researched, and when kids are crying there's a LOT less learning going on, no matter what program you use. And I say that as the parent of a child who regularly cries over school, so I'm not being judgmental about kids crying. I just hate the idea that it's no biggie and we ought not be so overprotective as to make a concentrated effort to avoid it. That's cruel. I've tried multiple different math and reading curricula. My dd just doesn't want to do school. She cries sometimes. If I found the magic bullet to stop those tears, you bet your behind I would switch. That's my job as her teacher: to assist her in her learning in the most enjoyable way possible for both of us, not to find the program that so-and-so likes and use it no matter what, because it's a "good" one.

[mystika1]

I agree. I think it's sad that anyone would make light of kids crying over their education, as if looking for a program that doesn't cause tears is somehow doing a disservice to kids. :( Like a lot of things, this has also been researched, and when kids are crying there's a LOT less learning going on, no matter what program you use. And I say that as the parent of a child who regularly cries over school, so I'm not being judgmental about kids crying. I just hate the idea that it's no biggie and we ought not be so overprotective as to make a concentrated effort to avoid it. That's cruel. I've tried multiple different math and reading curricula. My dd just doesn't want to do school. She cries sometimes. If I found the magic bullet to stop those tears, you bet your behind I would switch. That's my job as her teacher: to assist her in her learning in the most enjoyable way possible for both of us, not to find the program that so-and-so likes and use it no matter what, because it's a "good" one.

:iagree:

 

I am now going to use multiple math programs because I have read so many negative things about the program that I know would work for us.. that I am now "paranoid" of using it alone! It is sad and I have tried to stay away from these math threads but there is something that sucks me in....

 

I will ask this though because I don't see how time has anything to do with it:

And I am not being sarcastic at all...I just want to know how it differs?

Why is it that people slam Saxon for taking over an hour each day to use when they themselves are putting in 20 minutes of SM...15 min of drill....15 min + on miquon....and then 10 on word problems? Ummmm...Is that not an hour of math? :confused:I honestly don't think that time has anything what so ever to do with it.

 

I know alot of replies have said that people here understand that some kids need spiral review. Is there a way to make SM spiral? Yes.. it has review but I need Time, Money, Measurements and so on to be covered atleast 2x a week for it to really stick. I would love it if SM did that and so would my dd. :001_smile:So in order for me to continue to use SM I will have to also use something spiral with it. I don't think that everyone who is not using SM chose another route because they don't love the subject are not so passionate about it...some of us do so because we are trying to provide a good fit for our kids. I read Liping Ma and do see its value but continuing to watch my dd cry and call herself stupid at our school table just to say "we are using the best math around" would be a terrible injustice to her. She is far from stupid and I will not allow that to continue. It is sad that Asian math is 100% mastery based or I think more people would use it.

 

Sorry OP...these math threads are really interesting.:D

 

Thanks,

 

Penny

[Dana]

I will ask this though because I don't see how time has anything to do with it:

And I am not being sarcastic at all...I just want to know how it differs?

Why is it that people slam Saxon for taking over an hour each day to use when they themselves are putting in 20 minutes of SM...15 min of drill....15 min + on miquon....and then 10 on word problems? Ummmm...Is that not an hour of math? :confused:I honestly don't think that time has anything what so ever to do with it.

 

I haven't used Saxon or even looked at it much.

I am a strong proponent of drill - but drill to the point where a student has immediate recall of a problem ... not drill for the sake of drilling.

 

With your example, I see 20 min of SM as "lecture/presentation of material", 15 min of Miquon is more exploration/play (an opportunity to learn the concepts or see the reasoning behind the concepts... LOVE how they do division!) and 10 min of word problems (translation between English/math; and just doing word problems!).

 

It's not just the same type of problem being repeated.

And even if you're doing the same skill in all the units, it's being seen in different situations.

[nmoira]

Why is it that people slam Saxon for taking over an hour each day to use when they themselves are putting in 20 minutes of SM...15 min of drill....15 min + on miquon....and then 10 on word problems? Ummmm...Is that not an hour of math? :confused:I honestly don't think that time has anything what so ever to do with it.

Assuming the amount of time is reasonable (I consider reasonable to be far less than two hours) the question is what types of activities are child doing during that time. Have you seen the Saxon materials? The questions? I know not everyone does all of them, but we use a far smaller amount of problems, many of which require real thought to solve. In the case of MEP (DD the Younger is in Y2), sometimes questions are assigned for which they have not explicitly been given all the steps to solve. The kids are required to take what they know and apply it in a new say. FWIW, MEP is spiral curriculum in that major concepts are revisited throughout the year (Y1 is all about inequalities), but the lesson is divided up into class time and a single worksheet (and this is the case through Y6) with plenty of white space. Here's what she did today:

 

Screen shot 2011-05-23 at 2.03.50 PM.png by nmoira, on Flickr

 

The "class" activities were far more interesting than the worksheet today, but this is representative of the "look" of the worksheet. Most of our interactive time is spent reasoning. Math is 30-45 minutes plus 40 questions of fact practice on my phone.

[LittleIzumi]

:iagree:

 

I am now going to use multiple math programs because I have read so many negative things about the program that I know would work for us.. that I am now "paranoid" of using it alone! It is sad and I have tried to stay away from these math threads but there is something that sucks me in....

 

I will ask this though because I don't see how time has anything to do with it:

And I am not being sarcastic at all...I just want to know how it differs?

Why is it that people slam Saxon for taking over an hour each day to use when they themselves are putting in 20 minutes of SM...15 min of drill....15 min + on miquon....and then 10 on word problems? Ummmm...Is that not an hour of math? :confused:I honestly don't think that time has anything what so ever to do with it.

 

I know alot of replies have said that people here understand that some kids need spiral review. Is there a way to make SM spiral? Yes.. it has review but I need Time, Money, Measurements and so on to be covered atleast 2x a week for it to really stick. I would love it if SM did that and so would my dd. :001_smile:So in order for me to continue to use SM I will have to also use something spiral with it. I don't think that everyone who is not using SM chose another route because they don't love the subject are not so passionate about it...some of us do so because we are trying to provide a good fit for our kids. I read Liping Ma and do see its value but continuing to watch my dd cry and call herself stupid at our school table just to say "we are using the best math around" would be a terrible injustice to her. She is far from stupid and I will not allow that to continue. It is sad that Asian math is 100% mastery based or I think more people would use it.

 

Sorry OP...these math threads are really interesting.:D

 

Thanks,

 

Penny

 

To ME: It's like spending 15 min on dishes, 10 min on starting & switching laundry, 10 min folding with the kids, 10 min watering plants, and 15 min helping the kids dust with the big floofy duster while they giggle, versus spending the whole hour scrubbing the kitchen floor. It's all housework, but the first one is fun, uses different processes, feels better due to accomplishing a large number of tasks, and provides variety. The second one I would despise due to the monotony, repetition, and incremental progress.