I've noticed a LOT of threads on switching to traditional churches, and I have ???s.

[Parrothead]

To me, all the ritualistic parts seem to interfere with the "personal relationship" aspect of my faith.

As a life long Catholic, this personal relationship is something I have never ever ever understood. I don't get why one would want a personal relationship with God or Jesus or however it is termed. I don't want to be best buddies with God. I don't want Jesus to be my friend.

 

I want so much more from God. I want him to be my god- all-powerful, all-knowing, timeless and immortal. I want to tremble before His majesty, not ask Him, "How's it hanging."

 

Maybe someone can give me a good explanation of why this personal relationship is so important to him or her.

:lol::smilielol5:

 

ETA - 6Pack, I hope you know I'm not laughing AT you ... just the idea of the liturgical churches having a "new way" of doing church. Our Divine Liturgy is 1600 years old! :D

:D Neither RC or EO is the new guy in town.

[at the beach]

I agree, so how do you explain this thread that seems chock-full of people who apparently started out Protestant and then rejected that to become RC or EO? It's different if you start out that way, sure.

 

There's no apparent about it. I was raised Lutheran. My joining the Roman Catholic Church at the Easter Vigil this year has nothing to do with this being a phase or of me looking for something new and exciting. In fact, just the opposite. As Cardinal Newman said: "To be deep in history is to cease being Protestant."

[tntgoodwin]

Well, since you asked :D, in my case, it was because the five solas don't hold up historically. When you look at the ancient Christian Church and the early Church Fathers, all of it is Catholic. The five solas are ideas put up by men 500 or so years ago that clash with everything that was taught for the previous 1500 years.

 

Looking for the historical church in the Reformation is like looking for classical music with the Beatles. The Beatles may seem classical to today's 20 year old, but they still a very modern band! ;)

 

But not everyone is looking for the historical Church. I just simply couldn't ignore it once I found it.

 

Well of course the Catholic church is older. Doesn't make it more correct (IMHO). Remember, the reason for the Reformation is that Luther, Calvin, et al believed the Church was wrong. :)

[mommaduck]

There's no apparent about it. I was raised Lutheran. My joining the Roman Catholic Church at the Easter Vigil this year has nothing to do with this being a phase or of me looking for something new and exciting. In fact, just the opposite. As Cardinal Newman said: "To be deep in history is to cease being Protestant."

 

Precisely! Goodness, it wasn't even an easy thing for me to do nor something I took flippantly.

[tntgoodwin]

As a life long Catholic, this personal relationship is something I have never ever ever understood. I don't get why one would want a personal relationship with God or Jesus or however it is termed. I don't want to be best buddies with God. I don't want Jesus to be my friend.

 

I want so much more from God. I want him to be my god- all-powerful, all-knowing, timeless and immortal. I want to tremble before His majesty, not ask Him, "How's it hanging."

 

 

It's not about "Buddy Christ." I have a personal relationship with my earthly father. We are not best buddies. I have a personal relationship with my commanding officer - we are definitely not best buddies.

God is my father. My daddy. Sometimes I need to be held by Him. Wrapped up in His arms of love. Sometimes I need to be able to talk to Him, and listen when He responds. Me saying impersonal prayers written hundreds of years ago makes no more sense to me than going up to my boss and reading a speech that Ronald Reagan or JFK gave.

[mommaduck]

Well of course the Catholic church is older. Doesn't make it more correct (IMHO). Remember, the reason for the Reformation is that Luther, Calvin, et al believed the Church was wrong. :)

 

(has an answer for this, but would risk tomatoes from Parrothead and others :tongue_smilie::lol: )

[Caitilin]

Well of course the Catholic church is older. Doesn't make it more correct (IMHO). Remember, the reason for the Reformation is that Luther, Calvin, et al believed the Church was wrong. :)

 

You were, IIRC, asking how someone could come to the conclusion that the five solas were wrong; Asenik said that SHE was looking for the HISTORICAL church, the one with the closest earthly, temporal connection to Christ when he was on earth. She also said that not everyone is.

 

But you might want to revisit Luther--he didn't intend to start a new church, merely to reform the RC. ;)

[mommaduck]

It's not about "Buddy Christ." I have a personal relationship with my earthly father. We are not best buddies. I have a personal relationship with my commanding officer - we are definitely not best buddies.

God is my father. My daddy. Sometimes I need to be held by Him. Wrapped up in His arms of love. Sometimes I need to be able to talk to Him, and listen when He responds. Me saying impersonal prayers written hundreds of years ago makes no more sense to me than going up to my boss and reading a speech that Ronald Reagan or JFK gave.

 

I've found them to be anything other than impersonal. Heavens, like music or writing or poetry, I've found that they sometimes can speak my heart where my own tongue doesn't know how to put words to (says one who started crying during the reading of the Athatakist of the Theotokos today in our after-study). BTW, we also pray our own prayers in our own words as well. There is a place for both, imo.

 

Oh, and I believe in a personal relationship with my Heavenly Father and my Saviour. I find, after having gone through years as a Puritan rejecting nearly all forms of tradition, that those traditions are a help, where before I had dug myself into a Puritanical emptiness.

Edited March 20, 2011 by mommaduck

[simka2]

Me saying impersonal prayers written hundreds of years ago makes no more sense to me than going up to my boss and reading a speech that Ronald Reagan or JFK gave.

I just want to put forth a question. Have you researched the stories behind these "impersonal prayers," and have you ever tried to make them personal?

 

You never know, your boss may have a soft spot for JFK ;)

[tntgoodwin]

You were, IIRC, asking how someone could come to the conclusion that the five solas were wrong; Asenik said that SHE was looking for the HISTORICAL church, the one with the closest earthly, temporal connection to Christ when he was on earth. She also said that not everyone is.

 

But you might want to revisit Luther--he didn't intend to start a new church, merely to reform the RC. ;)

 

Indeed, you are correct. But why would he want to reform it...unless he felt that it was incorrect in some way? (Or, 95 ways, as it were)

 

 

I just want to put forth a question. Have you researched the stories behind these "impersonal prayers," and have you ever tried to make them personal?

 

You never know, your boss may have a soft spot for JFK ;)

 

LOL, true.

No, I have not looked into it that much. Truthfully, I even get a little weirded out by taking communion or praying the Lord's Prayer (Our Father, etc).

[6packofun]

That's why "new" was in quotes and I meant that it is new to those who haven't done church that way.

[simka2]

Indeed, you are correct. But why would he want to reform it...unless he felt that it was incorrect in some way? (Or, 95 ways, as it were)

 

Actually, he wanted The Church to reform herself, I think. It's a bit different. Also, the RC church did go thru many reforms after Luther. Luther died thinking of himself as a RC and my opinion is that if he came back today, he would still be RC :D.

 

 

 

LOL, true.

No, I have not looked into it that much. Truthfully, I even get a little weirded out by taking communion or praying the Lord's Prayer (Our Father, etc).

 

;) No prob! Everyone's walk progresses at it's own unique pace. Take care of you!

[Caitilin]

Indeed, you are correct. But why would he want to reform it...unless he felt that it was incorrect in some way? (Or, 95 ways, as it were)

 

 

 

 

LOL, true.

No, I have not looked into it that much. Truthfully, I even get a little weirded out by taking communion or praying the Lord's Prayer (Our Father, etc).

 

So, are you ever moved by a song, or a poem, or the Gettysburg address, or any other piece of beautiful writing? For me, praying beautifully composed prayers that have been prayed for centuries is deeply moving in a way which is analogous to the way poetry or real music can be deeply moving. But I can cry while listening to Bach. So maybe I am just weird.:tongue_smilie:

[love2read]

Colleen, my experiences mirrored yours somewhat. Catholic to Methodist to Evangelical before I was out of the home and then whatever Protestant church was nearest to my home. I returned to the Catholic church in my late 20s because I started digging deep into history, so yes it was being turned on to learning, reading primary sources for myself and thinking deeply. Reading the early apostolic fathers was very eye opening. I found a depth and thread of continuity from the time of the apostles that wasn't in the other churches. I also was drawn in by the consistency of the Catholic church when it came to morality and speaking the truth regardless of persecution. I think the bottom line was that I came to believe there was one objective Truth and that it wasn't a matter of Our church is bursting with converts too and I've heard that from a few other friends around the country. It's not just on this board.

[Avila]

Well of course the Catholic church is older. Doesn't make it more correct (IMHO). Remember, the reason for the Reformation is that Luther, Calvin, et al believed the Church was wrong. :)

 

And just because Luther and Calvin believed them to be wrong doesn't make that correct either.

 

It sounds like, from your previous posts, that you are new to your viewpoint and excited about that. I get that. Really. But it is a short jump from being excited about what you have found to being desultory about others on the same journey who either haven't found it or who found it in another direction.

 

Again, my opinion, but what really matters is the TRUTH. It isn't about me jumbling through every issue, determining my own beliefs and then finding a church that matches them all. That would likely have resulted in me founding my own church. ;) I think deciding to find Christ and follow Him often takes us in directions we ourselves wouldn't have sought and followed. But looking solely to our own opinons and understanding isn't going to lead us any closer to Jesus.

[tntgoodwin]

And just because Luther and Calvin believed them to be wrong doesn't make that correct either.

 

It sounds like, from your previous posts, that you are new to your viewpoint and excited about that. I get that. Really. But it is a short jump from being excited about what you have found to being desultory about others on the same journey who either haven't found it or who found it in another direction.

 

Again, my opinion, but what really matters is the TRUTH. It isn't about me jumbling through every issue, determining my own beliefs and then finding a church that matches them all. That would likely have resulted in me founding my own church. ;) I think deciding to find Christ and follow Him often takes us in directions we ourselves wouldn't have sought and followed. But looking solely to our own opinons and understanding isn't going to lead us any closer to Jesus.

 

Absolutely. I have been a Protestant for my whole life, the new viewpoint is just in regards to things like predestination, etc.

I am not saying people who think and believe differently than me are wrong, just sharing my opinions. I don't mean to imply anything otherwise. I don't expect everyone to be on the same journey that I am. I believe if you trust in your heart that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven and He is Lord of your life that I will see you in heaven. :)

[8circles]

I can see how this might be confusing, because praying to Mary and the saints is part of our faith. We use "pray" in its historical meaning of "request" -- see my previous post. It doesn't mean that we worship or adore them. We just venerate them, which is a way of saying that we have profound respect for them.

 

This is something that can be found in all churches and denominations, unfortunately. I don't think Catholics and EO have cornered the market on it. Though it probably shows up more obviously in liturgical churches, because we tend to have more "motions" to go through. ;)

 

I'm not explaining myself well. I don't misunderstand the different uses of "pray". I actually know Catholics who don't & think that praying = worship & they do that to Mary & Saints. I also know Catholics who think that they aren't Christian. :confused: They say this, not me. My point is that just as one can't generalize all Catholics in this way, one can't do that with Protestants either.

 

I understand that this thread is about people leaving Protestantism for RC or EO - I have no problem with this & don't consider myself so far apart from EO anyway - but that can be explained without generalizing negative stereotypes for all Protestants, no?

[8circles]

I think though, that though you are getting upset over that broad statement (and, as a general rule they are bad to make), you need to remember that most of us have converted *from* Protestant denominations. We're not complete outsiders looking in, we've walked away from what was our own.

 

I know, but "your own" wasn't all of Protestantism or Evangelicalism. I, as a Protestant my whole life, haven't encountered most of the things that have been described at all.

 

Yes, there are always people who go though the motions-you will get that everywhere. But we didn't leave Protestantism because there were those people, we were called to something all together different. I full well know that the RC parishoner standing next to me might be there becasue it's just what they do.

 

When I first started looking into EO, I remember asking the EO ladies of this board (who always had to most wonderful answers) if they were anomalies of their faith--they humbly answered no, but that yes, there are, within every church, those who are just there going through the motions. But that's not our concern.

 

It isn't my concern either. Some of what is being posted is the equivalent of me making this my concern.

 

That's not my concern. My concern is my journey. My concern is my own house and myself. My family didn't leave the denominational churches because there were people who judged there-that's ridiculous. We made the change because we wanted something deeper than we had found, we wanted to say prayers that had been prayed since the first Christians started meeting, we wanted something that went beyond ourselves. We wanted to fully enter into sacraments that were, themselves, an act of worship.

 

With the above bold, I agree. Some of the comments aren't about a personal journey but are painting with a broad brush.

[8circles]

First off, I want to apologize if any of my posts were among those that made it sound like the Protestant faith was somehow "less than" RC or EO. Truthfully, that is not my heart or intent, so I humbly ask your forgivness if that is the case.

 

No apology necessary, I don't remember who posts what half the time. I'm not wanting to argue about it although at this point it probably seems as if I do. I just find it frustrating when people don't like negative comments about them but turn around & make negative comments themselves. I'm just trying, maybe unsuccessfully, to show how it's the same thing only the other direction.

[milovany]

Tradition holds extreme interpretations of isolated scriptures in check! Anyway, it was an interesting revelation for me. :D

 

I love this, Simka. I hadn't thought of it that way before.

[missesd]

I've skipped some pages... but I have a question-

 

These prayers that somebody linked to that are to be repeated morning, mid-day, and night... you say they are from history and apart of the tradition. But where does it every say that Christ spoke these? Are these in the Bible?

[mommaduck]

I've skipped some pages... but I have a question-

 

These prayers that somebody linked to that are to be repeated morning, mid-day, and night... you say they are from history and apart of the tradition. But where does it every say that Christ spoke these? Are these in the Bible?

 

Who says we can only pray the prayers that Christ prayed? (no, they aren't in the Bible...they are directed TO our Heavenly Father and Christ Our Saviour)

 

 

Here are some examples http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/daily_prayers (you will notice though, that some are psalms)

Edited March 21, 2011 by mommaduck

[ktgrok]

I've skipped some pages... but I have a question-

 

These prayers that somebody linked to that are to be repeated morning, mid-day, and night... you say they are from history and apart of the tradition. But where does it every say that Christ spoke these? Are these in the Bible?

 

I think the hard part here is recognizing that the more "traditional" churches are based on traditions from BEFORE the bible was written and codified. The church existed before the New Testament, and therefore not everything it does is in the New Testament. I hope that makes sense and clarifies.

 

The liturgy itself evolved from the jewish liturgy of the time, which Jesus would have participated in.

[justamouse]

I have been reading this thread with great interest and this directed at no one in particular and I hope it offends no one.

 

To me, all the ritualistic parts seem to interfere with the "personal relationship" aspect of my faith.

 

I don't understand how someone that is a Protestant can simply reject the "five solas" and all that.

 

With us, those ritualistic parts of Mass have brought us closer, made us think more. I love them. I get chills saying the prayers that have been said from the Apostles on. I join hands with a continuous chain of Christians that have gone before me.

 

Coming from the opposite perspective, the liturgical aspects of my faith have increased my relationship with Christ, because the Church is His Body. They can't be separated. Being involved in the faith life the Church (the sacraments, the prayers, the festal cycle, the icons, the lives of the saints, etc.) IS the personal relationship. And it's MORE real than it was as a protestant. In protestantism, IME, the "personal relationship" was basically something contained within my mind and understanding. In Orthodoxy it's holistic, organic, all-encompassing.

 

:iagree:

Well, since you asked :D, in my case, it was because the five solas don't hold up historically. When you look at the ancient Christian Church and the early Church Fathers, all of it is Catholic. The five solas are ideas put up by men 500 or so years ago that clash with everything that was taught for the previous 1500 years.

 

Looking for the historical church in the Reformation is like looking for classical music with the Beatles. The Beatles may seem classical to today's 20 year old, but they still a very modern band! ;)

 

But not everyone is looking for the historical Church. I just simply couldn't ignore it once I found it.

 

Ohh this.

 

Once you learn, you are responsible for what you know. When I learned what I did, I couldn't NOT switch to RC or EO.

 

There's no apparent about it. I was raised Lutheran. My joining the Roman Catholic Church at the Easter Vigil this year has nothing to do with this being a phase or of me looking for something new and exciting. In fact, just the opposite. As Cardinal Newman said: "To be deep in history is to cease being Protestant."

 

For me, that is so true, too. I love that quote.

 

Me saying impersonal prayers written hundreds of years ago makes no more sense to me than going up to my boss and reading a speech that Ronald Reagan or JFK gave.

 

They are impersonal to you, because they are impersonal to you. To me they draw me deeper. I DO pray to God with my own words-all the time! Everything is not rote prayers or antiphons, but in chruch, to celebrate as a body, all praying the Nicene Creed and the Our Father together is *amazing*. We're not standing there as individuals praying, we're joining together into one prayer. We are the church, the body.

 

Again, my opinion, but what really matters is the TRUTH. It isn't about me jumbling through every issue, determining my own beliefs and then finding a church that matches them all. That would likely have resulted in me founding my own church. ;) I think deciding to find Christ and follow Him often takes us in directions we ourselves wouldn't have sought and followed. But looking solely to our own opinons and understanding isn't going to lead us any closer to Jesus.

 

hooo this. Completely.

 

I've skipped some pages... but I have a question-

 

These prayers that somebody linked to that are to be repeated morning, mid-day, and night... you say they are from history and apart of the tradition. But where does it every say that Christ spoke these? Are these in the Bible?

 

Lisa, you're going to ahve to start reading. I posted a lot of links on this thread-your answers are there.

 

The church has been praying those prayers since they started meeting (probably about 50 years in). They aren't IN the bible because when the church started meeting there was no New Testament. This is what Simka was talking about concerning tradition. Of course Jesus talks about the Our Father, in the New Testament, but to learn about how and when these prayers were said, you need to read through some of those links I posted. They're all in there.

 

Indeed. Many who have "gone East" have done so at great cost. In a few weeks, I will be at the baptism of a family of 7. When they announced their plans to convert, they lost their jobs; their friends of 20 years abandoned them; their children were shunned from play groups.

 

They thought this might happen; they hoped it wouldn't. Their decision was not flippant, not by any stretch. But it is filled with joy and relief.

 

The amazing thing to me is that I have heard not one bitter word, not one word of condemnation or judgment from these people. They pray for those who have rejected them.

 

I have a lot to learn.

 

Those sweet people. May God bless them.

 

In all honestly, I didn't think that when we decided to join the RC there would be any backlash. I was wrong. I was very, very wrong.

[justamouse]

I think the hard part here is recognizing that the more "traditional" churches are based on traditions from BEFORE the bible was written and codified. The church existed before the New Testament, and therefore not everything it does is in the New Testament. I hope that makes sense and clarifies.

 

The liturgy itself evolved from the jewish liturgy of the time, which Jesus would have participated in.

 

Yes. And there are great books out on this, too:

 

The Crucified Rabbi

 

Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist

 

The Mass of the Early Christians

 

some more great books:

 

My Life on the Rock the story of a Pentecostal preacher who reverted to the RCC

 

Surprised by Truth stories of Evangelicals and other denominations and their conversion stories to RCC

 

Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic

 

By What Authority? An Evangelical Discovers Catholic Tradition

Edited March 24, 2011 by justamouse

[missesd]

I think the hard part here is recognizing that the more "traditional" churches are based on traditions from BEFORE the bible was written and codified. The church existed before the New Testament, and therefore not everything it does is in the New Testament. I hope that makes sense and clarifies.

 

The liturgy itself evolved from the jewish liturgy of the time, which Jesus would have participated in.

 

Does that mean it would be in the Old Testament then?? Or do the more traditional churches only use the NT?

[missesd]

Lisa, you're going to ahve to start reading. I posted a lot of links on this thread-your answers are there.

 

The church has been praying those prayers since they started meeting (probably about 50 years in). They aren't IN the bible because when the church started meeting there was no New Testament. This is what Simka was talking about concerning tradition. Of course Jesus talks about the Our Father, in the New Testament, but to learn about how and when these prayers were said, you need to read through some of those links I posted. They're all in there.

 

Just to clarify I have been reading, but to be fair there was A LOT of info posted, and some of those I have had to bookmark for later.

[simka2]

You will never be able to really "get" the workings of the Roman Catholic, Orthodox or Episcopal Churches (at minimum--there may well be others) if you expect them to adhere to a sola scriptura approach. That's just not the way that those churches are structured. The Episcopal Church, for example, is structured on the "three-legged stool" of reason, Scripture and tradition--all are equally important and without any one of them, the stool falls over. Judaism is the same. There is the written Torah and the oral Torah---neither stands alone. In order to have any sort of productive dialogue, you need to have at least a willingness to try to understand the basis for the other person's reasoning. Doesn't mean you have to agree with it.:)

 

I just wanted to comment on this because it is one of the things that blew me away when I began to look into Tradition based (sorry lacking the verbage) faiths. I was scared of Tradition and saw it as a BAD thing! After, being immersed in this for awhile I have come to realize it is SAFER and more balanced.

 

To draw a correlation: It's like our government. We have the President, the houses, and the supreme court. There are checks and balances.

 

Tradition holds extreme interpretations of isolated scriptures in check! Anyway, it was an interesting revelation for me. :D

 

Does that mean it would be in the Old Testament then?? Or do the more traditional churches only use the NT?

 

These posts from earlier may be helpful ;)

[missesd]

Also, some of these questions have come forth because of conversations/debates with my husband too. So they are actually *his* questions.. LOL

[milovany]

Does that mean it would be in the Old Testament then?? Or do the more traditional churches only use the NT?

 

I think there must still be a misunderstanding happening since I've seen this question twice now. The traditional churches use both the OT and the NT.

 

The point is that there was the OT period, then Christ came/died/was resurrected. 50 days later the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost. Then the church grew and spread as bishops were ordained throughout that part of the world. The church faced persecution. Some letters were circulating (including those that eventually became part of the Bible, but there was no Bible yet). 300-400 years after Pentecost, a council of bishops convened to put together the canon of Scripture (i.e., in simple terms, create the Bible); there were some erroneous letters circulating and so the bishops wanted to say "These letters are definitely from God; they describe what we believe" -- but there was never a thought that this was the limit to God's revelation. It couldn't be! Much happened in those first three to four centuries that aren't in the Bible since the Bible's chronology ends at about 90 years AD. Not being in the Bible doesn't make the Holy Traditions from those 300-400 years less a part of the Church. The church was already growing and establishing its Tradition before the Bible was created.

Edited March 21, 2011 by milovaný

[KarenNC]

Does that mean it would be in the Old Testament then?? Or do the more traditional churches only use the NT?

 

As I said before, the Written Torah (or Tanakh or Hebrew Scriptures ---what Christians term the "Old Testament") is also not the entirety of the basis of Judaism anymore than the New Testament is the entirety of Roman Catholic, Orthodox, etc Christianity. The Written Torah is only part of the picture. It is incomplete without the Oral Torah (traditionally believed to have also been given to Moses by God) that interprets it. This link might help:

http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

 

So, basically, you can't just go to the Written Torah and expect to find all the rituals, prayers, laws, etc that guided Jews at the time of Jesus anymore than you can just go to the New Testament to find everything that guided the early Christians (of whatever sect). Unfortunately, religion is often messy and complex.;)

Edited March 21, 2011 by KarenNC

[justamouse]

Just to clarify I have been reading, but to be fair there was A LOT of info posted, and some of those I have had to bookmark for later.

 

I'm sorry if that came off as snotty-it's just that there's so much information we would have to give here on the board, and then it's just us, giving our own paraphrase, it's almost impossible. To read them is so much better.

[missesd]

Unfortunately, religion is often messy and complex.;)

 

I am beginning to get that. There is no "perfect" religion. I read a blog someone posted on here about "church shopping" and ecclesiastical consumerism. It hit home about not making the church FIT you, but about you fitting the church. I was especially chagrined to read the lines, "not making the church in YOUR image, but rather making yourself into God's image" :blushing: The problem, though I think isn't so much that, but making sure it "rings true to you". It has to speak to something deep within you about whether it feels right or not. I thought finding the true ordinance of what happened after Christs teachings, after his death, and the oldest religion/church would help settle that for me. But nope, I do feel more informed, more enlightened, but I can't say that what I am learning is necessarily where I feel I am supposed to be. I will say the church I was originally thinking of looking at, after reading that blog no longer holds such appeal. For it is one I would say is playing to the masses, rather then not being *of* the world. So, all in all, it *has* been helpful... and that is what is most important, even though in a way I feel back at square one... there is NO *perfect* church....

[simka2]

I am beginning to get that. There is no "perfect" religion. I read a blog someone posted on here about "church shopping" and ecclesiastical consumerism. It hit home about not making the church FIT you, but about you fitting the church. I was especially chagrined to read the lines, "not making the church in YOUR image, but rather making yourself into God's image" :blushing: The problem, though I think isn't so much that, but making sure it "rings true to you". It has to speak to something deep within you about whether it feels right or not. I thought finding the true ordinance of what happened after Christs teachings, after his death, and the oldest religion/church would help settle that for me. But nope, I do feel more informed, more enlightened, but I can't say that what I am learning is necessarily where I feel I am supposed to be. I will say the church I was originally thinking of looking at, after reading that blog no longer holds such appeal. For it is one I would say is playing to the masses, rather then not being *of* the world. So, all in all, it *has* been helpful... and that is what is most important, even though in a way I feel back at square one... there is NO *perfect* church....

 

Also, give yourself time. It's okay to take things slowly ;)

[Sparkle]

I have been reading this thread with great interest and this directed at no one in particular and I hope it offends no one.

 

To me, all the ritualistic parts seem to interfere with the "personal relationship" aspect of my faith.

 

Also, I understand feeling that your common evangelical megachurch may seem "shallow" to many people, but for me, that has lead to me exploring Calvinism and the Reformed Church. They are anything but shallow. I definitely don't feel the desire to go back to before the Protestant Reformation to a RC or EO faith. I don't understand how someone that is a Protestant can simply reject the "five solas" and all that.

 

There's nothing about being RC or EO that says you can't have a personal relationship with Jesus. That relationship is valuable and beautiful. But...for me, that's not enough. It's too simplistic to think that I can know all there is to know about Jesus just by having a "personal relationship" with him, or that I can become like him on my own. I need the Church. I am a big sinner, and while I may have the best intentions in the world, if I don't have the Church, I know I will keep falling right back into sin and away from God. I need the sacraments (or mysteries) with their accompanying graces. I need the prayers of fellow believers and the prayers of the saints. I need the disciplines of fasting, praying, and almsgiving to get me out of my own selfishness and passions. I need the community, who is journeying right alongside me, so we can support and help each other.

 

If there is a big flood coming, should I choose to build my own little rowboat and try to ride it out? Or should I choose to be in the ark, with my spiritual family and a store of provisions, and God's promise that He'll see me through? I might survive in my little rowboat, but I think I have a much better chance of making it in the ark.

[tntgoodwin]

There's nothing about being RC or EO that says you can't have a personal relationship with Jesus. That relationship is valuable and beautiful. But...for me, that's not enough. It's too simplistic to think that I can know all there is to know about Jesus just by having a "personal relationship" with him, or that I can become like him on my own. I need the Church. I am a big sinner, and while I may have the best intentions in the world, if I don't have the Church, I know I will keep falling right back into sin and away from God. I need the sacraments (or mysteries) with their accompanying graces. I need the prayers of fellow believers and the prayers of the saints. I need the disciplines of fasting, praying, and almsgiving to get me out of my own selfishness and passions. I need the community, who is journeying right alongside me, so we can support and help each other.

 

If there is a big flood coming, should I choose to build my own little rowboat and try to ride it out? Or should I choose to be in the ark, with my spiritual family and a store of provisions, and God's promise that He'll see me through? I might survive in my little rowboat, but I think I have a much better chance of making it in the ark.

 

I would prefer to be under the protection of the One who sent the flood, rather than under the protection of a group of like-minded people...;)

[justamouse]

I would prefer to be under the protection of the One who sent the flood, rather than under the protection of a group of like-minded people...;)

 

This is confusing because God told Noah to make the ark? How is that not the protection of God? And the Ark is a foreshadow of Christ and the Church.

 

I don't understand what you're trying to say?

Edited March 21, 2011 by justamouse

[missesd]

This is confusing because God told Noah to make the ark? How is that not the protection of God? And the Ark is a foreshadowing of Christ and the Church.

 

I don't understand what you're trying to say?

 

 

Yeah, I don't understand tntgoodwin's comment either :confused:

[8circles]

This is confusing because God told Noah to make the ark? How is that not the protection of God? And the Ark is a foreshadowing of Christ and the Church.

 

I don't understand what you're trying to say?

 

Well, I'm not tnt (& we don't have the same opinion on Tradition & ritual) but I'll answer.

If there is a big flood coming, should I choose to build my own little rowboat and try to ride it out? Or should I choose to be in the ark, with my spiritual family and a store of provisions, and God's promise that He'll see me through? I might survive in my little rowboat, but I think I have a much better chance of making it in the ark.

 

I think that we have different opinions on what the ark is.

There's nothing about being RC or EO that says you can't have a personal relationship with Jesus. That relationship is valuable and beautiful. But...for me, that's not enough. It's too simplistic to think that I can know all there is to know about Jesus just by having a "personal relationship" with him, or that I can become like him on my own. I need the Church. I am a big sinner, and while I may have the best intentions in the world, if I don't have the Church, I know I will keep falling right back into sin and away from God. I need the sacraments (or mysteries) with their accompanying graces. I need the prayers of fellow believers and the prayers of the saints. I need the disciplines of fasting, praying, and almsgiving to get me out of my own selfishness and passions. I need the community, who is journeying right alongside me, so we can support and help each other.

Are you only in the Ark if you believe in all of this? If you don't believe these things are you not in the Church? If I don't believe all these things am I in a little rowboat all alone? I would say no. I trust God, through my personal relationship with him, that I am in the Ark - saints or no saints, BVM or no BVM, fasting or no fasting, incense or no incense, Tradition or no Tradition, etc.

[Rosie_0801]

I would prefer to be under the protection of the One who sent the flood, rather than under the protection of a group of like-minded people...;)

 

who are under the protection of the One who sent the flood, yes? (Maybe God likes steamlining. The rest of us do.)

 

 

Are we talking about the difference between introversion and extroversion in religious practice?

 

Rosie

[justamouse]

Well, I'm not tnt (& we don't have the same opinion on Tradition & ritual) but I'll answer.

 

 

I think that we have different opinions on what the ark is.

 

Are you only in the Ark if you believe in all of this? If you don't believe these things are you not in the Church? If I don't believe all these things am I in a little rowboat all alone? I would say no. I trust God, through my personal relationship with him, that I am in the Ark - saints or no saints, BVM or no BVM, fasting or no fasting, incense or no incense, Tradition or no Tradition, etc.

 

Well, I believe the Ark is the foreshadow of Christ and the church. But she doesn't want to be in the ark :001_smile:. Regardless, she's still with like-minded people, rowing out there by herself.

 

Everywhere you are there will be like-minded people.

 

This kinda brings us back to square one-how and why you choose your boat.

 

(i'm just looking for that link on ecclesiastical consumerism)

Edited March 21, 2011 by justamouse

[KarenNC]

The problem, though I think isn't so much that, but making sure it "rings true to you". It has to speak to something deep within you about whether it feels right or not. I thought finding the true ordinance of what happened after Christs teachings, after his death, and the oldest religion/church would help settle that for me. But nope, I do feel more informed, more enlightened, but I can't say that what I am learning is necessarily where I feel I am supposed to be. I will say the church I was originally thinking of looking at, after reading that blog no longer holds such appeal. For it is one I would say is playing to the masses, rather then not being *of* the world. So, all in all, it *has* been helpful... and that is what is most important, even though in a way I feel back at square one... there is NO *perfect* church....

 

It may also help to realize that, within each denomination of each religion, there is a wide spectrum of ways in which the denomination's teachings can be experienced. Most will have parts of the denomination that tend to be more liberal or more conservative, more traditional or more contemporary, leaning more toward mysticism or charismatic or scholarship or community service or some combination of the above. Congregations aren't rubber stamps from their denominational description in the textbook for one's college American religious life class (where I went when I was looking for a liberal church with a traditional liturgy as I tried to stay Christian;)). Even within a congregation, there are different small groups or ways to express one's faith meaningfully.

 

As I said, I've experienced charismatic (in the Pentecostal sense) Roman Catholic services as well as Baptist services that were more traditionally liturgical than some Episcopal services I've attended. We have ultra-conservative as well as ultra-liberal Baptists in our area, and everything in between. My usual advice to people is to explore the breadth of options first within your own denomination, before deciding it has nothing more to offer you. You may be astonished to find that there are more options there than your experience with your home congregation has lead you to believe (though, admittedly, sometimes leaving is the only or best option). It's all too easy to fall into the trap of believing that the grass is greener (or the church/religion more holy) just because it's in a different pasture. Sometimes you don't realize until you jump the fence that the other pasture also has weeds, sometimes remarkably similar to the ones that were in the old pasture. :)

Edited March 21, 2011 by KarenNC

[8circles]

Well, I believe the Ark is the foreshadow of Christ and the church. But she doesn't want to be in the ark :001_smile:. Regardless, she's still with like-minded people, rowing out there by herself.

 

Everywhere you are there will be like-minded people.

 

:confused: It's late. I don't know who the "she" is you are referring to. I'm confused by your comment. But like I said, it's late - so maybe I'm just dense right now. I'm sorry.

[8circles]

This kinda brings us back to square one-how and why you choose your boat.

 

(i'm just looking for that link on ecclesiastical consumerism)

 

Is each denomination/sect/branch/what-have-you a different boat?

[simka2]

 

Are you only in the Ark if you believe in all of this? If you don't believe these things are you not in the Church? If I don't believe all these things am I in a little rowboat all alone? I would say no. I trust God, through my personal relationship with him, that I am in the Ark -

 

When EO refers to themselves as ''The Church." They believe it whole-heartedly.That said, there are a couple things to remember. One is as Kallistos Ware say's, "We know where God is, not where He is not." The other is that the EO does not pass judgement outside of itself.

 

It's basically a, "we know what we are, but we are not going to speculate or pass judgement outside of ourselves. That's not our job." That's a bit different than saying, "We are The Church, and you are all d*amned to H*ell if you don't believe as we do."

 

You might call it "a quiet confidence."

 

Again, it's the issue of Mystery that I found so appealing ;). Hope that helped a bit! (Also, I am not the foremost authority, but this is my understanding as of right now)

 

I hope this helps a bit ;)

[FrogMom5]

I agree with the posters who said it is God moving us. My short answer to why I converted has always been because the Holy Spirit led me. I always felt something was missing. Since the age of 3 I spent lots of time talking and listening to Jesus. I had a lot of surgery as a young child and I always knew I would be ok because of Him. Due to all the surgeries, I had a close relationship with God from a young age.

 

My family was Methodist and very devout Christians. I will always love our simple, little country church. It just wasn't enough.

 

In my mid-20s I converted to the Catholic Church (Roman Rite). The missing part began to fill. I think it's the Eucharist. Honestly, I can't explain it. It's a complete mystery. But when you take the body and blood of Christ, it changes you.

 

I also want to worship as close to the way the Apostles and early church fathers did. The people who knew and followed Jesus when He was on earth - they knew best what He said and what He wanted. None of us humans will ever get it completely correct, IMHO, but they are probably the closest. So I will only belong to one of the ancient churches - Roman or Eastern Rite Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, etc. or the Anglican Church.

Denise

[8circles]

I hope this helps a bit ;)

 

I keep reading this but then it all comes back to Protestants making their own boat & not being in the Ark & I have a hard time believing it. Bottom line is, I know I'm in the Ark & it's disheartning to be told I'm not.

 

I think I just need to stay away from these discussions. Thank you for staying with me, simka2.

[missesd]

It may also help to realize that, within each denomination of each religion, there is a wide spectrum of ways in which the denomination's teachings can be experienced. Most will have parts of the denomination that tend to be more liberal or more conservative, more traditional or more contemporary, leaning more toward mysticism or charismatic or scholarship or community service or some combination of the above. Congregations aren't rubber stamps from their denominational description in the textbook for one's college American religious life class (where I went when I was looking for a liberal church with a traditional liturgy as I tried to stay Christian;)). Even within a congregation, there are different small groups or ways to express one's faith meaningfully.

 

As I said, I've experienced charismatic (in the Pentecostal sense) Roman Catholic services as well as Baptist services that were more traditionally liturgical than some Episcopal services I've attended. We have ultra-conservative as well as ultra-liberal Baptists in our area, and everything in between. My usual advice to people is to explore the breadth of options first within your own denomination. You may be astonished to find that there are more options there than your experience with your home congregation has lead you to believe. It's all too easy to fall into the trap of believing that the grass is greener (or the church/religion more holy) just because it's in a different pasture. Sometimes you don't realize until you jump the fence that the other pasture also has weeds, sometimes remarkably similar to the ones that were in the old pasture. :)

 

To be honest, I don't know if that would be true of the LDS faith. It's pretty cut and dry, you do and follow, or you don't and get looked at differently amongst your peers in church. Now I have heard some people have been trying to find a "middle way", but it is frowned against, and has been spoken out against by the general church leadership. Really I believe it is their way, their rules, their counsel, or if you disagree you do so outside the church :confused:

[justamouse]

Is each denomination/sect/branch/what-have-you a different boat?

 

Kallistos Ware is a wise man. "We know where God is, not where He is not."

 

This thread is the reasons and stories (that we can expound on-so much is left unsaid) we chose the Ancient ark. It's not a condemnation of Protestants. I tried to walk through exactly why my family left it. I'm sorry if that hurt you.

Edited March 21, 2011 by justamouse

[simka2]

I keep reading this but then it all comes back to Protestants making their own boat & not being in the Ark & I have a hard time believing it. Bottom line is, I know I'm in the Ark & it's disheartning to be told I'm not.

 

I think I just need to stay away from these discussions. Thank you for staying with me, simka2.

 

Mouse just made an interesting observation. Ancient Ark ;). It's not that you are not in an Ark, not our place to judge :D. We just know of a specific one that has been working well for a long time! (at least that's how I have come to see it)