Carb Question

[5KidzRUs]

I was officially diagnosed with diabetes yesterday. The nutritionist said a few things - and didn't - that I would like feedback on from you all.

 

I told her I CRAVED carbs at times - which is frustrating for me because I would really like to eliminate most breads from my diet. Even my spinach wraps are about 30 carbs each! She told me it is not possible to "crave" (she used her fingers to mock the quotes) carbs. Is she talking about something deeper than my inner Homer Simpson voice telling me "Doooooonut!!!!!!!!!!"? ... like maybe chemically not possible?

 

I just read a thread here that said triglyceride levels are related to glucose intake - she didn't mention that. She told me that I can have any carbs I want - cake and such is ok - but I have to keep it at 240 carbs a day consistently. If the doc wants me to get the triglycerides down a little then shouldn't I lower carb intake and avoid unnecessary carbs like cake?

 

I think my bull-headed problem is that they are not telling me what I want to hear. I want to hear that I need to (at least) walk daily (she did say that though) and eat lots of raw foods. That I need to eat and count carbs - but avoid as much processed carbs as possible. That I need protein; soy and milk/cheese/yogurts are ok and red meat is not essential. Fruits (fructose) are OK - but don't go crazy. And finally, YES there is protein in some veggies - just in small amounts and lots has to be eaten to be a substantial amount :001_smile:

 

On a bright note, my good cholesterol is good and bad cholesterol is not high.

 

Well, obviously I do not know enough about nutrition because I am diabetic and obese :glare: maybe I am being defensive and trying to rationalize. On a post a few pages over someone wrote that their carb addiction was like a heroine addiction. I do have a few family members that are/were heroine addicts and I know firsthand how powerful that is/was for them. I truly wonder if food (carb?) addiction is chemically similar to drug addiction.

Edited February 16, 2011 by 5KidzRUs

[Rosie_0801]

Well we must be the only two mutants on planet Earth then. I will not believe anyone who says I don't crave carbs, grains specifically, and I did without grains for a few months while I was gestationally diabetic. That was one very strong reason for limiting our family to two! It was months before I could look another legume in the face!

 

Don't believe everything a medical professional tells you about diabetes. Many of them assume you will be another mug who wants a magic pill to fix everything, while continuing to live on meat pies and cigarettes, and will give you advice accordingly. I'll bet the sweethearts who "looked after" me through my last pregnancy (and they were sweethearts, I'm not being snarky!) have never told a pregnant woman that she can sub beans for grains to keep off insulin, because other than my bull-headed self, who would follow such miserable advice?

 

Taking into account that it will take TIME for you to figure out how your body works, how much of what you can eat and when, I suggest you spend time studying the GI info you can find online and work at beating your carb intake into the recommended serving sizes and spread them evenly through the day. Try hard to eat at similar times of the day, each day, and have a small supper. You'll soon figure out if you can spread your carbs through the three main meals or if you need to spread them over six smaller meals. And if you find you can't get enough food while keeping your bloods low enough (assuming high blood sugar is the issue) you can always substitute some of the grains for beans ;)

 

You'll work it out. (But no, cake is not ok. Sweet potato chips are, however. You're going to want to know that eventually ;) )

 

Rosie

[jld]

Is it type 2? If so, you're in luck. Read these:

 

http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_diabetes.html

 

http://www.drmcdougall.com/med_hot_diabetes.html

 

and this:

 

http://www.nealbarnard.org/diabetes_book.htm

 

You know, I think if you change to a high-fiber, low-fat (oil-free) diet free of animal products, you will lose weight and your diabetes very quickly. Your thoughts about walking are right on; do at least a 15 minute brisk walk after every meal. And let water be your beverage!

 

You're going to be okay!:)

[Peela]

I think most westerners are addicted to sugar, let alone carbs. And I mean addicted. They show all the signs of addiction. Its not until you give up sugar and refined carbs you realise what it does to your moods, and how addictive they are.

 

Please trust yourself. You are speaking common sense- the doctor is not.

There are many people who have cured themselves of diabetes through diet alone. Some use the raw food path but there are others.

There is a Cure for Diabetes

[mooooom]

and really lowered their cholesterol levels. They do very little sugars, and only small amts of low carb bread (which definitely takes some getting used to). I think a healthy diet is very useful for any medical problem. I would take a look at some diabetic cookbooks in a bookstore. I've found them very useful when looking into low carb diets. I too crave carbs - I usually find that a small handful of almonds helps. I also like garbanzo beans - straight or w/ a little salad dressing. Satisfies my cravings better than low carb bread.

[knit247]

I personally don't know much about it, but my Mom (who was not terribly overweight - I'd say no more than 30 lbs) was Dx Type 2 several years ago. She has managed to stay completely off meeds while keeping her diabetes and weight under contra,l through diet and (very) light exercise alone.

 

She started with the diabetes diet that an RD gave her, but quickly moved to one based on the glycemic index and glycemic load. Look into books about glycemic index and load - they helped her a lot!

[MBM]

I truly wonder if food (carb?) addiction is chemically similar to drug addiction.

 

Your carb cravings are strongly influenced by cannabinoids, hormones made from omega-6 fatty acids, that are found in your omentum (also your brain). Cannabinoids make it difficult to push the sugar into your cells by blocking adiponectin which is produced by fat cells. Adiponectin is what your muscle uses to burn carbs effectively. If you're not burning the carbs effectively -- meaning the sugar is not getting into your cells efficiently -- then your brain will crave sugar because it needs it to function. It is not because of your moods that you're craving, but because your brain is hungry. So, yes, I suppose you could say that carb craving is somewhat similar to other addictions in that it's difficult to control with willpower alone. (Cannabinoids came to light after studying cannabis -- pot -- and why it caused the munchies.)

 

Decreasing omega-6 fatty acids, increasing omega-3s (fish oil would be good), and then trying a diet as recommended in Richard Bernstein's book Diabetes Solution or others should help. (Read many different books.) I would also recommend you look into taking alpha lipoic acid.

 

HTH and good luck!

[Twigs]

First of all :grouphug:

 

Second, when I eat many carbs, I CANNOT get enough of more carbs!! If that's not craving carbs, then I do not know what a carving is!! Not eating many carbs is the only way to control my hunger. I eat lower carb fruit (peaches and strawberries), oatmea, and some vegetables on a daily basis, but no bread, potatoes, pasta, etc.

 

I would urge to consider taking on the responsibility of your own decisions(as much as possible) by educating yourself about some of the approaches to managing diabetes. I think you should read several different approaches so that you get different viewpoints. One of the books you might want to consider is The Carbohydrate Addicts Diet: http://www.amazon.com/Carbohydrate-Addicts-Diet-Lifelong-Solution/dp/0451173392/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297861868&sr=1-1

 

If your doctor put you on medications, you will have to watch your blood sugar readings carefully if you do decide to lower your carb intake. One of the most important things is to educate yourself.

 

Best wishes.

[LauraGB]

I think my bull-headed problem is that they are not telling me what I want to hear. I want to hear that I need to (at least) walk daily (she did say that though) and eat lots of raw foods. That I need to eat and count carbs - but avoid as much processed carbs as possible. That I need protein; soy and milk/cheese/yogurts are ok and red meat is not essential. Fruits (fructose) are OK - but don't go crazy. And finally, YES there is protein in some veggies - just in small amounts and lots has to be eaten to be a substantial amount :001_smile:

 

 

 

I don't know...the above sounds about right to me. :confused:

 

I think the big thing is to lay off the simple carbs; sugar, processed foods, even juices.

 

Have you been following your own advice all this time and still ended up with diabetes and weight issues?

[5KidzRUs]

 

Have you been following your own advice all this time and still ended up with diabetes and weight issues?

 

I have over the last few years made changes to how I was raised to eat. I do not purchase pork or beef - instead I buy a little fish and mostly boneless, skinless chicken tenders. Meat is not half our dinner plate - it is about 20%, if that, four or five times a week.

I also stopped buying cow juice (milk) - the kids were drinking a gallon a day. We switched to soymilk.

I do not do fast food, well, maybe once or twice a year. I will eat other kinds of meats when we go out to dinner about once a month or when I binge at a local deli/bakery.

If I eat bread, it is one slice and it is the really healthy kind.

... I have made those changes and some others, like lots of raw veggies. I eat some fruits, but I usually just eat a banana or another mild fruit when I am craving fruits.

Doing this, I have lost 45 pounds over the last 4-5 years.

 

Quite honestly, my breakdown comes when I see a Bavarian Custard Donut (YUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM) or a cheese and ham croissant or something equally yummy and evil. Yesterday, I ate about 10 Paul Newman Low Carb Fig Bars. I know better, and I still ate them and enjoyed every bite - and I know better.

 

So I am making slow progress and I know I have issues I need to address when it comes to carbs. I have read and listened to several whole foods authors and I have ordered the books recommended on my posts regarding diabetes. I am trying to immerse myself in more progressive thinking regarding managing this disease. I wish there was a carb rehab clinic I could run away to :001_huh:

[happypamama]

My dad is diabetic, and he *can* eat cake; he just can't eat too much of it, and I think it works best for him if it's eaten with/just after a meal with protein, rather than by itself as a snack. There are certain things that really spike his blood sugar way too much, even in moderation, like non-diet soda. I've been researching gestational diabetes diets, because I've been somewhat borderline for it in the past (and am at risk for diabetes because my dad has it). My midwife recommends not the standard glucose test, but checking my blood sugar several times a day, fasting and after meals, to see what affects *my* particular levels. Everyone's a little different. I would see about getting the testing equipment and discussing with the doctor/nutritionist where *your* levels ought to be. Then you can decide about carbs and such. (And yes, you can crave carbs!)

[MBM]

I have lost 45 pounds over the last 4-5 years.

 

Good for you! That is a good rate to lose weight. Losing fat will help to make your cells more sensitive to insulin. Not sure if your exercise routine includes this, but building more muscle will help make you more sensitive to insulin as well.

 

Quite honestly, my breakdown comes when I see a Bavarian Custard Donut (YUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM) or a cheese and ham croissant or something equally yummy and evil. Yesterday, I ate about 10 Paul Newman Low Carb Fig Bars. I know better, and I still ate them and enjoyed every bite - and I know better.

 

LOL. At least you're honest! I cook for my diabetic MIL, and if she does not have some sort of treat, she sneaks off to stores to get her fix. Try making substitutions for the desserts you like, and then test to see how it affects your blood sugar. My MIL can eat a cheesecake I make with stevia, eggs, cream cheese and nuts (instead of graham crackers) and it keeps her blood sugar within a good range. So, in many cases, you really can have your cake and eat it, too. :D

 

I wish there was a carb rehab clinic I could run away to :001_huh:

 

There used to be one in Oklahoma -- Tulsa I think -- but I'm not sure if they're still there. I think in the future we might see more clinics sprouting up. It would really be a good idea, IMO.

 

Edited February 16, 2011 by MBM

[Halftime Hope]

for your ongoing education:

 

books by Calvin Ezrin (an endocrinologist with a practice in the Pacific Northwest), the Drs. Eades (Mary Dan and Michael? he is no longer in practice) and Dr. Richard Bernstein.

 

Somewhere in all their information, you will figure out a mashup that works for you! : )

 

I like Dr. Ezrin's information for losing weight. And, yes, from both dh and I, there is such a thing as carb cravings and carb addiction. Dr. Bernstein addresses treating it here:

 

http://www.diabetes-book.com/cms/articles/5-research/7435-method-of-treatment-for-carbohydrate-addiction-us-patent-5716976

[jplain]

Well your nutritionist is just silly. There is plenty of scientific evidence showing that carbs produce a brain response remarkably similar to addiction. She's buying into the idea that you are choosing to behave this way, and if you can just exert willpower, you'll overcome that urge. Hogwash.

 

I do not purchase pork or beef - instead I buy a little fish and mostly boneless, skinless chicken tenders. Meat is not half our dinner plate - it is about 20%, if that, four or five times a week.

I also stopped buying cow juice (milk) - the kids were drinking a gallon a day. We switched to soymilk.

I do not do fast food, well, maybe once or twice a year. I will eat other kinds of meats when we go out to dinner about once a month or when I binge at a local deli/bakery.

If I eat bread, it is one slice and it is the really healthy kind.

... I have made those changes and some others, like lots of raw veggies. I eat some fruits, but I usually just eat a banana or another mild fruit when I am craving fruits.

Doing this, I have lost 45 pounds over the last 4-5 years.

I personally don't think you will see the long term results you probably want, namely normal BMI and elimination of need for meds to control type II diabetes, with this approach.

 

I'd like to recommend 2 books:

 

Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It by Gary Taubes

 

This is a heavily researched discussion of what we know about weight gain, why "calories in vs. calories out" doesn't work, why exercise is ineffective for weight loss, and why gluttony/sloth are NOT the right explanations for why Americans are overweight. Taubes explains the biology in non-scientist terms, and provides dietary strategies for interrupting the vicious cycle that keeps people overweight and inactive.

 

 

Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution by Richard Bernstein

 

Bernstein is an endocrinologist who is himself a type I diabetic, but his book is for both type Is and type IIs. He runs a very large clinic treating diabetics in NY, and has had huge success normalizing his type II patients' blood sugars while at the same time minimizing the need for glucose-lowering meds. He advocates and low carb approach, and explains why it is not only healthy, but necessary for diabetics to maintain optimal health. His methods are evidence-based and have proven effectiveness. I highly recommend this book.

[elise1mds]

There used to be one in Oklahoma -- Tulsa I think -- but I'm not sure if they're still there. I think in the future we might see more clinics sprouting up. It would really be a good idea, IMO.

 

 

 

If there is one, it's news to me. Which isn't to say it couldn't exist, I suppose, though I think I'd have heard of it somewhere. It *IS* a good idea, though.

 

I crave carbs, too. If I have a late-night snack that contains carbs, I will wake up in the morning with a dry mouth and crave orange juice and doughnuts like nobody's business, guaranteed. I am barely overweight - less than 5 lbs. from a normal weight - and have been prediabetic at least once. I desperately need to lose another 20-30 lbs., but giving up carbs is nearly impossible without massive mood swings, hot sweats, and cravings. Sounds like an addiction to me!

[MBM]

If there is one, it's news to me. Which isn't to say it couldn't exist, I suppose, though I think I'd have heard of it somewhere. It *IS* a good idea, though.

 

 

It was called Lifestyle Center of America and was located in Sulphur. I'm not sure, but I don't think they're running the clinic anymore. I believe they could have been Adventist, but again, I'm not 100% sure.

 

[delaney]

Well I second that carb cravings do exist! Who is that Dr kidding? I lose weight and inches after just a few days of drinking water and avoiding carbs. It is amazing but VERY hard. I am looking into the new Atkins book. WW won't work for me b/c I can still fill in with the low calorie junk and end up eating more processed food b/c it is easy.

[Joanne]

I'd find a new care practitioner.

 

She was giving you fairly serious, possibly life altering news about your health. You have a chronic auto immune condition that is diet-related. Food is tied to emotional health. She discounted the role of *quality* food and the emotional reality.

 

Epic fail.

 

Yes, a person can (no air quotes) crave carbs.

 

Since your lipid profile is good, I'd encourage you to research a diet-style that works for you. The one mentioned above clearly works for people; it would not work for me, even if I were diabetic. There are others.

 

It's true that keeping track of total carbs is one way. However, giving some time and energy to making good carb choices seems more holistic.

[Greta]

I would run screaming from a "nutritionist" who says it's perfectly okay to eat cake.

 

That's not to say I never eat cake (rarely, holidays and such) but that I don't delude myself into thinking that it's okay for me to do so. As a diabetic, cake is nothing short of poison for your body. This person is being incredibly irresponsible if she is telling you that all carbohydrates are created equal, or that carbs are not a cause for concern.

 

When my grandmother died from Type II, I decided it was time for me to look more open-mindedly at the low-carb diet my brother had been advocating. I had been a vegetarian for five years prior to this, and still ate a high-carb low-animal-foods diet, and was convinced that was the only way to be healthy. What I read really surprised me, but what was most shocking of all was how dramatically my health improved when I essentially reversed my diet and started eating foods I had been avoiding, and avoiding foods that had been staples. I will never go back.

 

More than 200 grams of carbohydrate a day for a diabetic is absurd. I have friends who are diabetic and their doctors limit them to 90-120 grams per day. I eat less than that, and I'm not even diabetic, so I think it could/should be lower. Regardless, there is no way it should be 240! Uggh, I can feel my blood pressure rising at this stupid, destructive advice you are getting!

 

I highly recommend the book "Life Without Bread" by Allan and Lutz. This book explains in a thorough but not overwhelming way how and why low-carb is healthier, and there is a lot of information specifically about diabetes. I think you would also really enjoy "The Schwarzbein Principle", written by an endocrinologist who figured out that her diabetic patients were getting sicker on the low-fat diet she was recommending for them, while those who were not following her advice were doing well. So, she changed her advice and started recommending low-carb diets instead.

 

Your gut instincts are right. Now you just need to arm yourself with more knowledge and motivation, and ideally, with people in your life who will support you.

 

ETA: I once had an MD tell me that if I did adopt the low-carb diet I was considering, my triglycerides would "drop like a stone". His words. My HDL is high and my triglycerides are low, just as they should be.

 

Also, I believe that carbohydrate addiction is very real, and the way to break that addiction is to eat very low carb with plenty of healthy fats. For me, part of the reason I keep my carbohydrate intake so low (60 grams or less per day) is that when I go any higher, I simply can't stop eating them. The more I have, the more I want. If I would exercise more intensely and more consistently I could probably go higher.

Edited February 16, 2011 by GretaLynne

[ScoutTN]

I think most westerners are addicted to sugar, let alone carbs. And I mean addicted. They show all the signs of addiction. Its not until you give up sugar and refined carbs you realise what it does to your moods, and how addictive they are.

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Check out Suzanne Somers' books. They are full of good info and her way for cooking/eating is easy to do, for life. No counting! (I do not have the time or patience for that!)

 

I have a very strong family history of diabetes and when my doc said that I was borderline, I dropped all refined sugar and bad carbs and caffeine completely for a year. Normal blood sugar, weight loss, much better cholesterol readings, more energy and fewer mood swings.

 

Now I do have sweets occasionally. Homemade - no processed food. But I find that too many treats just awakens the monster and I crave carbs/sweets again! I do have healthy carbs - whole grain bread and pasta, starchy veggies, legumes but I try to keep a balance and not overdo even these good carbs.

 

Go with your instincts. Get another doc/nutritionist. Read everything you can find. You'll figure it out. :)

[MBM]

ETA: I once had an MD tell me that if I did adopt the low-carb diet I was considering, my triglycerides would "drop like a stone". His words. My HDL is high and my triglycerides are low, just as they should be.

 

Okay, I'm very curious what you do primarily eat. A high fat diet? Saturated or monounsaturated fats? Beef, fish, chicken, avocadoes, coconut oil?

 

I'm going to put your books and jplain's in my lineup of books to read eventually. Very interesting.

[Greta]

Okay, I'm very curious what you do primarily eat. A high fat diet? Saturated or monounsaturated fats? Beef, fish, chicken, avocadoes, coconut oil?

 

In a word, yes. :001_smile: All of the above. I'm no longer frightened of fat or of meat.

 

I use coconut oil, palm oil, tallow, lard, butter, and olive oil. (All from good quality sources.) You won't find any canola oil or cottonseed oil or any other polyunsaturated oils in my kitchen.

 

I eat lots of eggs, nuts, seeds, olives, avocados, many veggies and fruits, certain dairy products (cheese, cream, butter).

 

I do not eat gluten because I'm highly sensitive/allergic; don't eat beans or legumes, milk or yogurt, and definitely no ice cream, because I do not digest those foods well. I eat corn, potatoes, and rice only rarely and only in small amounts. There's so much carbohydrate in them that they trigger cravings and are best avoided.

 

I'm not perfect in living up to my own ideals, though. My two vices are dark chocolate and dry red wine. :D But I do try to partake of them sparingly!

 

I'm going to put your books and jplain's in my lineup of books to read eventually. Very interesting.

I've added several to my "must read" list as well! Edited February 16, 2011 by GretaLynne

[Rosie_0801]

low-fat (oil-free) diet

 

Fat free is a good way to ruin your health. If you want to read more about good fats, read Queen of Fats.

 

Another thing to know about exercise is not to stress your body in doing it. A leisurely stroll around the block will probably be better for your blood sugar levels than 15 frantic minutes on the treadmill. Stress raises blood sugar levels.

 

Rosie

[homeschoolmom]

I don't believe this is a qualified nutritionist. Certainly arrogant and snotty but not overly informed. Air quotes indeed!

 

Your experience reminds me of a favorite saying a friend of mine has "The kid who graduates lowest in their medical class is still a doctor."

 

If medical advice seems wrong.......it probably is. I'd do my own research on GI and diabetes and find a new nutritionist (if I felt I needed the consult).

[Dawn in OH]

"An enormous percentage of women crave sugar, carbohydrates, or alcohol. In most cases, these food cravings are not true eating disorders, but instead are signs of hormonal imbalance caused by a lack of healthy nutrition."

 

http://www.womentowomen.com/understandyourbody/symptoms/cravings.aspx

 

Almost all of the women I know crave carbs. I have serious doubts about any medical professional that would say it's not a craving.

 

I also cannot stand when people use air quotes, just for the record.

[happypamama]

More than 200 grams of carbohydrate a day for a diabetic is absurd. I have friends who are diabetic and their doctors limit them to 90-120 grams per day. I eat less than that, and I'm not even diabetic, so I think it could/should be lower.

 

I see that you say you keep yours to around 60 grams a day, which sounds reasonable to me, at least when I'm not pregnant. Do you have any thoughts as to what a pregnant woman in the second and third trimesters should have as her target?

 

I agree with the posters who said that good fats and proteins make the difference. We eat fairly low-carb (moreso in the warmer months when greens and other veggies are inexpensive and plentiful), and it really just required a shift in our mentalities about meals. Lunch doesn't need to be a sandwich, nor does every dinner need to have rice/pasta/potatoes. It took some time to get used to it, but it works.

[Gooblink]

 

In a word, yes. :001_smile: All of the above. I'm no longer frightened of fat or of meat.

 

I use coconut oil, palm oil, tallow, lard, butter, and olive oil. (All from good quality sources.) You won't find any canola oil or cottonseed oil or any other polyunsaturated oils in my kitchen.

 

I eat lots of eggs, nuts, seeds, olives, avocados, many veggies and fruits, certain dairy products (cheese, cream, butter).

 

I do not eat gluten because I'm highly sensitive/allergic; don't eat beans or legumes, milk or yogurt, and definitely no ice cream, because I do not digest those foods well. I eat corn, potatoes, and rice only rarely and only in small amounts. There's so much carbohydrate in them that they trigger cravings and are best avoided.

 

I'm not perfect in living up to my own ideals, though. My two vices are dark chocolate and dry red wine. :D But I do try to partake of them sparingly!

 

 

I've added several to my "must read" list as well!

 

This sounds very much like a "Nourishing Traditions" approach. I've been reading that and "Gut and Psychology Syndrome" to make changes in our diet.

 

Another thing I've read can cause carb cravings is yeast in the gut. Once you cut the sugars and the yeast dies off, the cravings subside.