While I'm trying to break my carb addiction, can I eat anything

[Jumping In Puddles]

I want as long as it doesn't have carbs in it?

 

Today is day one (again, UGH!) and I had 2 scrambled eggs cooked with butter, then I was still hungry, so I cooked about 4 oz fish in olive oil and butter. I drank a glass of green tea. I'm feeling better. :D

 

My goal is to reduce my Fatty Liver Enzymes, lose weight, and become healthy.

 

I can never get past the carb addiction though. After a few days (maybe up to 2 weeks) I do really well but ultimately, I eat something I shouldn't and it's ALL OVER. I am an all or nothing kind of gal. :sad:

[Soror]

Yes, I would eat all you want, to absolute fill of good foods. At first you will eat all the time and stuff yourself, but you will level out and your appetite will subside and then you will learn to feel satisfied w/ low carb food.

[DesertDweller]

I understand wanting to cut carbs out completely, but it's not healthy to eliminate all carbs. You should try to include some healthy low carb foods in your diet.

 

Many vegetables are very, very low carb and can be added in without causing cravings or weight gain. For example, you can add peppers, onion and tomato to your eggs. Have a stir fry with lunch and add your favorite protein. A salad can also be a nice change when made with the right low carb veggies.

 

You will find some veggies such as onions to be a little higher in carbs than others, and it may be helpful to add some of the higher carb veggies in slowly. But even those are still considered to be low carb.

 

When I did low carb, I used a low carb counter to help me keep track of how many carbs I had each day, and I also followed alot of the recommendations on the Atkins website and in the Atkins books.

 

I would also recommend going to the library for some low carb cookbooks or checking some of the low carb websites for recipes. When I did low carb, I learned to make alot of delicious low carb recipes. That was really what made it doable.

 

If you eat less than twenty carbs per day, you will break your carb addiction. You don't have to go completely without. After that, you can probably even add in berries, nuts, and a few other things that are a bit higher in carbs but will keep your cravings at bay.

 

I don't know if you're following a specific diet, so I may be off base in my advice. I hope you can find a way to make it work for you especially since you're doing it for your overall health. Good luck!

[MBM]

I'd add vegetables, too. Not potatoes, but a variety of everything else.

 

ETA. Since you mentioned that you are an all-or-nothing kind of gal, figure out how to make healthier substitutions for the unhealthy foods you eat. I have helped my diabetic MIL learn to manage her diabetes without entirely giving up the foods she likes. The culprits for her are cookies and bread. Rather than eliminate them entirely, I have found substitute foods and recipes that don't cause too great of a spike in her blood sugar. She has lost weight and is controlling her diabetes much better now, but more importantly, she doesn't feel deprived. It takes time to do this, so don't beat yourself up if you fall off the plan.

 

My other suggestion is to not keep unhealthy foods in the house if you are tempted to eat them. Eveyone in the family will benefit.

 

Best of luck.

Edited February 9, 2011 by MBM

[LittleIzumi]

Check out the Candida diet for a list of "can-eat" foods on a nearly zero-carb diet. (*excuse me while I throw my I WANT SOME FLIPPING TOAST tantrum, lol*)

[Jumping In Puddles]

I can definitely add some low carb veggies today. For lunch I'm going to have sardines with romaine and green pepper slices.

 

I don't have too many bad things in the house, but right about now I would love a bowl (or 2 or 3) of rice krispies with bananas. :001_huh:

 

I'm going to have large glass of water right now, and cook some more eggs (this time with mushrooms, onion and spinach and cheddar cheese) because I can't stand the craving.

 

I'm seconds away to having a large cup of light and sweet coffee. :banghead:

 

I think I'll jump on the treadmill first. Wish me luck. :tongue_smilie:

[Jumping In Puddles]

Check out the Candida diet for a list of "can-eat" foods on a nearly zero-carb diet. (*excuse me while I throw my I WANT SOME FLIPPING TOAST tantrum, lol*)

 

I've been wanting to check out the Candida diet but I was turned off by the no fruit. Although, I decided today that I won't do fruit this week because I need to kick these carb cravings.

 

I feel like an addict.

[jplain]

I understand wanting to cut carbs out completely, but it's not healthy to eliminate all carbs.

What do you mean by "it isn't healthy"? Do you mean medically? Psychologically?

Just curious. From my reading it seems pretty clear that there is no biologically required carbohydrate intake.

[Jumping In Puddles]

What do you mean by "it isn't healthy"? Do you mean medically? Psychologically?

Just curious. From my reading it seems pretty clear that there is no biologically required carbohydrate intake.

 

Hmmm, I took it to mean that DesertDweller was talking about non starchy vegetables which I think is important biologically for cancer fighting properties and heart health, right?

[2cents]

Very low carb is healthy! I've been doing it for over a month now and I've eliminated my migraines and lost over 10 lbs. I've been reading a book that explains the relation of carbs and weight gain well. It is called Why We Get Fat and What To Do About It by Taubes. The book also goes into how exercise is minimally effective as a weight loss strategy. Exercise is a great thing for fitness but as a method of loss, it is not all it is reputed to be. Very interesting book!

[Jumping In Puddles]

I managed to stay away from the coffee, so that's a plus and I skipped the eggs but had sardines, avocado, romaine, olive oil, vinegar and feel full but awful.

[ktgrok]

The secret for me is FAT FAT FAT!!! Seriously, last time i was known to have a pat of butter and let it melt in my mouth. Eat some fat!

[jplain]

Hmmm, I took it to mean that DesertDweller was talking about non starchy vegetables which I think is important biologically for cancer fighting properties and heart health, right?

Yeah, I know that conventional wisdom says that non-starchy vegetables are magical. I disagree, a bit. I certainly don't think they're harmful. But I also don't think they're *required* for health on a low carb diet, or that there's sufficient evidence to support an elevated nutritional status over animal products.

 

Non-starchy vegetables are more nutritive than nutrient-poor processed carbs. But all of the necessary vitamins and minerals are also found in meat, organs, and eggs, often more biologically available and in greater quantities.

 

True, there are compounds found in plants that appear to have anti-cancer properties in cell culture plates. Developing these compounds as drugs might be useful. But no matter what Prevention magazine says (;)), you're on shaky ground to assume that you get the same anti-cancer benefits by eating the plant itself.

 

A diet high in non-starchy plant foods may very well reduce heart disease and cancer, but it is important not to confuse correlation with causation. Do plants act to reduce cancer and heart disease? Or do plant foods replace things that we'd otherwise be consuming (like sucrose, fructose, and trans fats), which might actively promote cancer and heart disease?

 

Frankly, I think it is the latter: excess fructose, partially hydrogenated fats, even refined vegetable oils are the most likely culprits in most diseases of modern civilization. Replacing these things with plant foods (or animal foods!) would likely improve your cardiac and cancer risk profile. (Gluten is another possible suspect, even for those that aren't celiac, but I'm not completely convinced on that one...yet.)

 

There are lots of reasons to argue for diet higher in plant foods: ethics, sustainability, replacing less healthy foods. But on a low-fructose background, I'm not convinced that vegetables are important for health. Variety, sure. But the jury is still out on additional health benefits, assuming you're already on a low-fructose diet.

 

For anyone interested in further reading, I'd suggest Taubes' book Why We Get Fat, or his earlier, more comprehensive Good Calories, Bad Calories. Kurt Harris' blog PaNu is also worth perusing for a medical/scientific perspective. He gives glucose (starch) a bit more of a break than Taubes does, and I think that's fair, unless one is dealing with diabetes or obesity.

Edited February 9, 2011 by jplain

[Snickerdoodle]

The secret for me is FAT FAT FAT!!! Seriously, last time i was known to have a pat of butter and let it melt in my mouth. Eat some fat!

 

Pastured butter is heavenly.

[Greta]

Yeah, I know that conventional wisdom says that non-starchy vegetables are magical. I disagree, a bit. I certainly don't think they're harmful. But I also don't think they're *required* for health on a low carb diet, or that there's sufficient evidence to support an elevated nutritional status over animal products.

 

Non-starchy vegetables are more nutritive than nutrient-poor processed carbs. But all of the necessary vitamins and minerals are also found in meat, organs, and eggs, often more biologically available and in greater quantities.

 

I think you have a point, though you're one of a very few people who seems willing to make that point. :) My concern is that some of the nutrition that is available from animal products is destroyed by cooking -- and raw animal foods are largely impractical these days because of the poor quality of the sources (and because most people have not developed a taste for them, and simply won't eat them). I remember reading somewhere -- probably WAPF -- that the Inuit avoided scurvy in an environment where plant foods ranged from scarce to completely unavailable by eating the adrenal glands of prey animals . . . raw. Cooking destroys the vitamin C. Not having access to raw adrenal glands, I eat peppers, tomatoes, berries, etc. ;)

 

Not arguing your point at all, because I agree! Just saying that veggies are practical, yummy, and widely available. And I don't think that they need to be avoided (with a few obvious exceptions) to maintain a healthy low-carb diet.

[Jumping In Puddles]

 

For anyone interested in further reading, I'd suggest Taubes' book Why We Get Fat, or his earlier, more comprehensive Good Calories, Bad Calories. Kurt Harris' blog PaNu is also worth perusing for a medical/scientific perspective. He gives glucose (starch) a bit more of a break than Taubes does, and I think that's fair, unless one is dealing with diabetes or obesity.

 

I have reserved this from the library but until I get it, can you tell me the basics or let me know what I can eat this week?

[Jumping In Puddles]

\

Not arguing your point at all, because I agree! Just saying that veggies are practical, yummy, and widely available. And I don't think that they need to be avoided (with a few obvious exceptions) to maintain a healthy low-carb diet.

 

Thanks for adding this. I'm trying to get a handle on what to eat and what to avoid. I first thought I would eat whole, natural foods but their is controversy in that too and I'm trying to understand it.

 

I hate food. I hate myself. I hate that I can't seem to help myself.

[LittleIzumi]

I think you have a point, though you're one of a very few people who seems willing to make that point. :) My concern is that some of the nutrition that is available from animal products is destroyed by cooking -- and raw animal foods are largely impractical these days because of the poor quality of the sources (and because most people have not developed a taste for them, and simply won't eat them).

 

Score 1 for sushi :lol:

[Greta]

I feel like an addict.

 

I know the feeling.

 

Coconut oil is very easily and quickly converted into energy by your body, so it's a great fat to choose when you're feeling a bit run-down or when you're craving carbs. (Sometimes those carb cravings are about craving that energy burst, and coconut oil can give you that without the carbs.) I cook with coconut oil whenever possible.

 

Another quick and easy snack is to mix equal-ish amounts of coconut milk and chicken broth. Warm it up, stir in a bit of curry paste (or powder), and it's quite a yummy soup. Obviously, you'll want to buy the richest, creamiest coconut milk you can, not the "lite" stuff!

 

I know some people who will even melt a tablespoon or so of coconut oil into their tea. Personally, I cannot handle oily tea. But if it works for you, great.

 

You're avoiding caffeine, right? That REALLY helps. For me, anyway, caffeine is a sure-fire way to sabotage my low-carb diet.

 

Also, for me personally, sometimes my carb cravings are really just cravings for something crunchy. So some crispy nuts, or some crispy bacon strips used as "chips" for dipping with guacamole will really hit the spot.

 

I'm getting hungry so I think I'll quit. :001_smile:

[Greta]

I hate that I can't seem to help myself.

 

I've been sick recently - just a cold, but for me a cold often turns into a sinus infection or sometimes even something worse. So I've been trying to eat really healthy to avoid that. And yet, last night, I stayed up too late. And I don't know why, but whenever I do that, the carb cravings hit bad. So I blew my diet. And now I'm paying for it with sneezing fits and really bad congestion, when I had been on the mend. :banghead: I really hate my lack of self-control. It does get easier once your body gets into ketosis, but it's still a struggle. :(

[Greta]

Score 1 for sushi :lol:

 

Yum! But let's skip the rice and have some sashimi instead. :D

[Greta]

I'm trying to get a handle on what to eat and what to avoid.

 

I think it takes some experimenting to find what will work, and what will not work, for you. When I first started LC, I simply counted carb grams. But since I have food allergies and intolerances, and since I've learned that certain foods are best avoided because they trigger cravings, now I just eat those foods that I know work for me and avoid those that I know won't, and I don't count anything any more.

 

You might find this helpful: http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/ The boards there are very active.

[MBM]

I'd recommend you try experimenting with different foods to find what curbs the sugar cravings. What works for one person, might not work for another. Personally, I don't feel well eating a diet that's mostly protein and prefer to add certain vegetables, fruit and a little bit of whole grains. I like a lot of fiber in my diet, and I also like a big breakfast, smaller lunch and an even smaller dinner. That's what works for me, though. You could be different.

 

Another researcher to read up on besides the others mentioned is Cynthia Kenyon. My husband met her a few years ago at a conference and was intrigued by her research. You can get the gist of it by reading a few articles about her on the internet.

 

HTH and good luck!

[ScoutTN]

Yes, eat if you ae hungry! But do distinguish between being hungry and having the munchies!

 

Suzanne Somers' books have some fabulous no sugar/low carb recipes in them! Good meal ideas as well as snacks and quick foods. :)

 

Some of my favorite snacks are celery with blue cheese dip (bleu chs, part mayo, sc and a splash of vinegar with S & P to taste), lettuce wraps with sliced turkey or roast beef or rotisserie chx, a cup of good chx broth, dill pickles or a small handful of salted almonds. As a pp said, the nuts do have carbs, but they are very satisfying!

[jplain]

My concern is that some of the nutrition that is available from animal products is destroyed by cooking -- and raw animal foods are largely impractical these days because of the poor quality of the sources (and because most people have not developed a taste for them, and simply won't eat them).

I'm not too worried. Have you read Catching Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human? It should have been a long article, rather than a book, but it is worth reading enough to get the jist of the argument.

 

I remember reading somewhere -- probably WAPF -- that the Inuit avoided scurvy in an environment where plant foods ranged from scarce to completely unavailable by eating the adrenal glands of prey animals . . . raw. Cooking destroys the vitamin C.

Yes, I've read this too. I'm not convinced. There are so many confounding issues to consider. For starters, those who studied traditional Inuit diets were bogged down by personal prejudices and unexamined assumptions. That is reflected in their writing and experimental design. I'm not sure that it'll ever be settled with certainty, now that there are no Inuit populations left that eat only a traditional diet.

 

However, cooking doesn't destroy all of the vitamin C in meat. If I recall correctly, boiling a 100g portion for 10 minutes roughly halves the amount of vitamin C. Given the amount of fresh/frozen meat consumed in a traditional Inuit diet, half the amount found in raw flesh may have been enough to avoid scurvy.

 

Also relevant is the fact that an individual's requirement for vitamin C depends on carb intake. The higher the carb intake, the higher the vitamin C requirement. Many of those who studied the Inuit did not fully understand this relationship.

 

In any case, I'm not an advocate of zero carb, except maybe for some type II diabetics (not all, just some). If DesertDweller had come back to discuss, I'd have argued that going very low or zero carb is probably just fine short term, and likely just fine even long term. In the case of serious carb addiction, temporary very low or near-zero carb intake might be the most effective way to break the carb craving cycle.

[jplain]

I have reserved this from the library but until I get it, can you tell me the basics or let me know what I can eat this week?

Taubes has an appendix with specific recommendations based on the diet prescribed by Duke University's Lifestyle Medicine Clinic, but it is too long to reproduce here.

 

However, to get you started, here's a pretty generic but hardcore low-carb eating plan:

 

meat/poultry/pork/fish/bacon/ham

Eat as much as it takes to satisfy hunger, and DO NOT avoid fatty meat. You may find yourself eating a lot in the early weeks, but your appetite will adjust over time and you'll probably find you don't need as much later on. Cured meats like bacon are controversial, but I wouldn't worry about that too much as you start eating low carb. It is easy to cut back later if you feel nervous about bacon. But for now, if you like bacon, eating it freely may make the transition to low carb a lot more pleasant. :)

 

non-starchy, non-sweet vegetables (greens, broccoli, summer squash, bell pepper, green beans, etc)

Don't go overboard on serving size as they can still be quite carby.

 

eggs

 

butter for sauteing

 

hard cheese

 

other full fat dairy

But don't go overboard with dairy, because even full fat dairy has significant carbs. And I have nutritional qualms about eating dairy anyway, given that its purpose is to fatten up a juvenile ruminant, which I am not. :D

 

very small servings of nuts or nut butters (nuts are surprisingly carby)

 

unsweetened berries, excluding strawberries, in moderation

 

In my own diet I also include coffee with cream (not half and half or millk), tea, full fat coconut milk, and small portions of very dark (bitter) chocolate. I eat prepared mustard and homemade mayonnaise, and I use herbs and spices freely. My most processed food is Jay Robb whey protein shakes made with coconut milk, but I only make them when I'm desperate for a quick breakfast. Once in a blue moon I do eat very small amounts (~1/4 cup) of cooked rice or potatoes.

Edited February 9, 2011 by jplain

[melissel]

I've been wanting to check out the Candida diet but I was turned off by the no fruit. Although, I decided today that I won't do fruit this week because I need to kick these carb cravings.

 

I feel like an addict.

 

When I did Phase 1 of South Beach, I was like an addict. The things I found going through my head, it was like I was trying to get off heroin! Bargaining, begging, rage and denial...it was terrible. I went through all the five stages of grief in 8 days. The best advice I had was to eat before I could get hungry, and eat a LOT of safe things. Red and orange peppers (tons of them) and hummus and lunch meat saved me. Those are all allowed on the first (carb addiction busting) phase of the South Beach Diet. I also ate a lot of salad with goat cheese and oil and balsamic vinegar (allowed in very small quantities). By day 8 I was over the hump.

 

You can do it. YOU CAN DO IT!

[Ali in OR]

For those tempted to try no-carb or extremely low-carb, please be aware that there are medical consequences to this. My experience is from having a daughter on the ketogenic diet for 3 years for seizure control. She was allowed almost no carbs, enough protein for cell growth, and the rest of her calories came from fat. She drank whipping cream at every meal. The body burns fat for energy instead of carbs and goes ketotic. For reasons that aren't understood, being in a ketotic state can greatly reduce or eliminate seizures (for our dd it did not fully eliminate seizures, but she could be on much lower med levels). If you're not trying to eliminate seizures, I can't understand why you would want to be ketotic.

 

The medical issues we had to deal with: 1) regular blood tests. Dd's triglyceride levels were sky high. As her doctor said, this diet is not a forever thing because it is too hard on the body. She came off the diet after 3 years. 2) calcium supplements are necessary. 3) No fiber means major constipation. Milk of magnesia was all we could give for it, and we still had to deal with very painful episodes. 4) Vitamin supplementation was required.

 

We also had a friend who lost a lot of weight on Atkins. He had to stop that approach forever because his kidneys couldn't handle it--I think it was the protein.

 

By all means cut out unhealthy carbs (the white stuff, the starchy stuff, the sugar), but I can't imagine any health benefit to cutting greens and colorful, fiber-rich, vitamin-packed fruits and veggies. And don't do anything drastic like trying to cut all carbs or almost all carbs without the guidance of a medical doctor. My opinion.

[melissel]

For those tempted to try no-carb or extremely low-carb, please be aware that there are medical consequences to this. My experience is from having a daughter on the ketogenic diet for 3 years for seizure control. She was allowed almost no carbs, enough protein for cell growth, and the rest of her calories came from fat. She drank whipping cream at every meal. The body burns fat for energy instead of carbs and goes ketotic. For reasons that aren't understood, being in a ketotic state can greatly reduce or eliminate seizures (for our dd it did not fully eliminate seizures, but she could be on much lower med levels). If you're not trying to eliminate seizures, I can't understand why you would want to be ketotic.

 

The medical issues we had to deal with: 1) regular blood tests. Dd's triglyceride levels were sky high. As her doctor said, this diet is not a forever thing because it is too hard on the body. She came off the diet after 3 years. 2) calcium supplements are necessary. 3) No fiber means major constipation. Milk of magnesia was all we could give for it, and we still had to deal with very painful episodes. 4) Vitamin supplementation was required.

 

We also had a friend who lost a lot of weight on Atkins. He had to stop that approach forever because his kidneys couldn't handle it--I think it was the protein.

 

By all means cut out unhealthy carbs (the white stuff, the starchy stuff, the sugar), but I can't imagine any health benefit to cutting greens and colorful, fiber-rich, vitamin-packed fruits and veggies. And don't do anything drastic like trying to cut all carbs or almost all carbs without the guidance of a medical doctor. My opinion.

 

I don't think anyone's advocating that kind of diet as a long-term, healthful way of life. Most of us who have done that sort of diet have done it as a short-term sugar addiction breaker, or in the form of the candida diet--to meet a short-term health goal.

[CalicoKat]

I want as long as it doesn't have carbs in it?

 

Today is day one (again, UGH!) and I had 2 scrambled eggs cooked with butter, then I was still hungry, so I cooked about 4 oz fish in olive oil and butter. I drank a glass of green tea. I'm feeling better. :D

 

My goal is to reduce my Fatty Liver Enzymes, lose weight, and become healthy.

 

I can never get past the carb addiction though. After a few days (maybe up to 2 weeks) I do really well but ultimately, I eat something I shouldn't and it's ALL OVER. I am an all or nothing kind of gal. :sad:

 

I'm just starting this journey too. My goal is to reduce inflammation and get my arthritis more under control. I've found the protein shakes to be really helpful in controlling hunger so far. I've also been eating a ton more veggies.

 

I had 2 eggs with 2 pieces of turkey bacon for breakfast. :D Tomorrow a spinach omlet with feta cheese to start the day off right!

[kitten18]

I just went back to low carb a few weeks ago. I ate low-carb before I got pregnant with DD, lost my way and tried to starve on weight watchers for many years with very little success.

 

The first few days are definitely the hardest, by day 4, I felt GREAT!

 

The best thing I did was go to the Low Carb Friends message boards. In the section "weight loss plans" there is an "Atkins Induction" forum. At the top of that forum there is a sticky "Induction Food Porn #2" (I cringe to post the name here) but the pictures in the thread were sooooo inspiring to me, reminding me off all the things that I CAN eat.

 

Good Luck.

[Jumping In Puddles]

Thank you all for the encouragement and advice.

 

I didn't quite make it the whole day. :cursing:

 

I made homemade stew today because I knew I could have a nice bowl before I put in the potatoes and dumplings for my family. I had my bowl (why didn't I just save more than one bowl? grrr) and then I went to the pot and got a second helping with a potato and a dumpling.

 

Tomorrow is another day and I have a plan for tomorrow which should help. Wish me luck. :)

[kitten18]

Thank you all for the encouragement and advice.

 

I didn't quite make it the whole day. :cursing:

 

I made homemade stew today because I knew I could have a nice bowl before I put in the potatoes and dumplings for my family. I had my bowl (why didn't I just save more than one bowl? grrr) and then I went to the pot and got a second helping with a potato and a dumpling.

 

Tomorrow is another day and I have a plan for tomorrow which should help. Wish me luck. :)

I totally understand. I almost ate a bowl of granola my second night. Now I'm not having any problem staying away. I cook for the family, scoop up ice cream for the kids, and "meh" I'm just not interested. It is really amazing actually.

[melik]

Thank you all for the encouragement and advice.

 

I didn't quite make it the whole day. :cursing:

 

I made homemade stew today because I knew I could have a nice bowl before I put in the potatoes and dumplings for my family. I had my bowl (why didn't I just save more than one bowl? grrr) and then I went to the pot and got a second helping with a potato and a dumpling.

 

Tomorrow is another day and I have a plan for tomorrow which should help. Wish me luck. :)

 

One thing that helped me get past those first few HARD days, is don't make or have temping food in the house. Don't make stew with dumplings! You are setting yourself up for a fall the kids could have had stew without those things tonight. Doing what is best for your health is good for everybody, don't' use the kids as an excuse. Maybe the next time you make stew you will have more will power but be ruthless for a few days.

 

I hope things get better! I soooo know how you feel and it is so hard! You can do it!

 

Meli

[Jumping In Puddles]

Yes, the stew was a bad move on my part. My family could've lived without dumplings. Today is another day and thanks for the confidence! I NEED to do this.

[jplain]

It is unsound scientific reasoning to try to extrapolate from those who have seizure disorders to the general population. Individuals with seizure disorders may have related, underlying metabolic disorders that do not affect the general population. And more importantly, those with seizure disorders are on drugs to control and/or prevent seizures. Those pharmaceuticals may very well have metabolic side effects.

 

The medical issues we had to deal with: 1) regular blood tests. Dd's triglyceride levels were sky high.

Honestly, this is perplexing. It is well established that triglycerides directly correlate with carbohydrate intake. On a low carb diet, triglycerides plummet. If your daughter had high triglycerides, she was either not following a low carb diet, or it was a drug side effect, or her metabolism is very, very unusual. Honestly, I'd be seeing a cardiologist if my trigs were high on a strict low carb diet. In her case, I'd bet that her triglyceride abnormalities are side effects of the drugs she was prescribed. Possibly these abnormalities are only seen in combination with a low carb diet. However, that doesn't mean the low carb diet is unhealthy for others, because a low carb diet does NOT cause elevated triglycerides.

 

2) calcium supplements are necessary.

How so? Dairy is fine on a low carb diet. And besides, calcium requirements on a low carb diet are lower. In fact, many micronutrient requirements are lower on a low carb diet. Not understanding this concept leads conventional practitioners to assume that a low carb diet is nutritionally inadequate, but it isn't. Your daughter's situation may have been different though, as many pharmaceuticals interfere with calcium metabolism. Her need for calcium may have been elevated, but that doesn't mean that everyone on a low carb diet needs calcium supplementation.

 

3) No fiber means major constipation. Milk of magnesia was all we could give for it, and we still had to deal with very painful episodes.

Again, pharmaceuticals are notorious for causing GI dysfunction. Since you report that her fat intake was high, I'd assume that was the most likely cause. For someone not taking any drugs, constipation on a low carb diet usually means fat intake is not high enough. On the other hand, it is also likely that some people do need a small amount of fiber to be comfortable; my DH is one of them.

 

4) Vitamin supplementation was required.

What vitamins, specifically, are you referring to? Meat is more nutrient dense than any other foodstuff aside from breastmilk.

 

We also had a friend who lost a lot of weight on Atkins. He had to stop that approach forever because his kidneys couldn't handle it--I think it was the protein.

Atkins is not high protein. If he was eating high protein, he wasn't doing Atkins. He may have been doing Atkins wrong by eating too much lean protein and not enough fatty meat. Alternatively, if he really couldn't handle the protein level recommended by Atkins, then he probably had pre-existing undiagnosed kidney problems. If he has kidney disease, obviously his experience can't be generalized to that of healthy adults. Edited February 10, 2011 by jplain

[Jumping In Puddles]

Oddly enough, I actually feel better today than I did yesterday. :001_huh: Although last night, I thought I was going to need to call an ambulance because I thought I might die.

 

I had 2 eggs, cheddar, mushrooms, red pepper omelette cooked in butter and green tea! :w00t: I feel full and not craving as much as yesterday, despite my dumpling and potato with stew last night.

 

Thanks for the low carb discussion, I'm learning a lot from this thread. :)

[melissel]

Oddly enough, I actually feel better today than I did yesterday. :001_huh: Although last night, I thought I was going to need to call an ambulance because I thought I might die.

 

I had 2 eggs, cheddar, mushrooms, red pepper omelette cooked in butter and green tea! :w00t: I feel full and not craving as much as yesterday, despite my dumpling and potato with stew last night.

 

Thanks for the low carb discussion, I'm learning a lot from this thread. :)

 

Seriously, eating low-carb is the best diet for me. I have more energy, think more clearly, my stomach feels better, etc. I'm sure it's not for everyone--my BFF has tried eating more protein and fewer carbs, and she felt awful. But for me, most carbs, and too many carbs, are generally bad news.

 

I'm glad you're feeling better! Stay strong :D

[Greta]

I'm not too worried. Have you read Catching Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human? It should have been a long article, rather than a book, but it is worth reading enough to get the jist of the argument.

 

No, but I've heard of this book before, and would like to read it. Thanks for reminding me about it.

 

However, cooking doesn't destroy all of the vitamin C in meat. If I recall correctly, boiling a 100g portion for 10 minutes roughly halves the amount of vitamin C. Given the amount of fresh/frozen meat consumed in a traditional Inuit diet, half the amount found in raw flesh may have been enough to avoid scurvy.

 

Interesting!

 

Also relevant is the fact that an individual's requirement for vitamin C depends on carb intake. The higher the carb intake, the higher the vitamin C requirement. Many of those who studied the Inuit did not fully understand this relationship.

 

I was aware that the need for certain nutrients actually decreases as you decrease your carb intake, but I did not know that Vitamin C was one of them. In fact, just purely from my brother's experience of developing gum disease when he went very low-carb, I thought the opposite was true. If you happen to have more info on this, I would love to read it.

 

In the case of serious carb addiction, temporary very low or near-zero carb intake might be the most effective way to break the carb craving cycle.

 

:iagree:

[Greta]

If I eat fruit alone I feel like passing out in an hour.

 

This is me! I have a vegan friend who eats nothing but fruit for breakfast every day, and I don't think she believes me when I tell her I simply CANNOT do that. If I eat fruit, or any other carbohydrate food, alone, I have a blood sugar crash that makes me want to just curl up in a little ball and and cry myself into unconsciousness. It is such an awful feeling! I always eat my fruit with some type of cream (heavy cream, creme fraiche, sour cream) or nut butter (almond and macadamia are my favorites).

 

If I eat a lean protein alone, I don't get the same horrible crash, I just continue to feel hungry until I eat some fat!

[Ali in OR]

It is unsound scientific reasoning to try to extrapolate from those who have seizure disorders to the general population. Individuals with seizure disorders may have related, underlying metabolic disorders that do not affect the general population. And more importantly, those with seizure disorders are on drugs to control and/or prevent seizures. Those pharmaceuticals may very well have metabolic side effects.

 

 

Honestly, this is perplexing. It is well established that triglycerides directly correlate with carbohydrate intake. On a low carb diet, triglycerides plummet. If your daughter had high triglycerides, she was either not following a low carb diet, or it was a drug side effect, or her metabolism is very, very unusual. Honestly, I'd be seeing a cardiologist if my trigs were high on a strict low carb diet. In her case, I'd bet that her triglyceride abnormalities are side effects of the drugs she was prescribed. Possibly these abnormalities are only seen in combination with a low carb diet. However, that doesn't mean the low carb diet is unhealthy for others, because a low carb diet does NOT cause elevated triglycerides.

My daughter's diet was medically supervised by her neurologist and a dietician. She has had regular bloodwork most of her life and she only had high triglycerides while on the ketogenic diet. Her diet was mostly fat--for a ketogenic diet you are trying to operate your body by burning fat. The keto diet is "very high in fat, adequate in protein, and low in carbohydrate". My dd's allotments for each meal were 3.7 grams of carbs, 5 grams of protein, and 31 grams of fat. Here's a typical meal: 72 gm of cream, 14 gm of cheddar cheese, 7 gm banana.

How so? Dairy is fine on a low carb diet. And besides, calcium requirements on a low carb diet are lower. In fact, many micronutrient requirements are lower on a low carb diet. Not understanding this concept leads conventional practitioners to assume that a low carb diet is nutritionally inadequate, but it isn't. Your daughter's situation may have been different though, as many pharmaceuticals interfere with calcium metabolism. Her need for calcium may have been elevated, but that doesn't mean that everyone on a low carb diet needs calcium supplementation.

She could not eat enough dairy to meet her requirement of calcium. She was limited to 5 gm of protein per meal and 3.7 gm of carbs. There was no way to make the numbers work with a large amount of dairy. I trust her medical doctor's opinion and dietician's opinion of what nutrients are required for her.

Again, pharmaceuticals are notorious for causing GI dysfunction. Since you report that her fat intake was high, I'd assume that was the most likely cause. For someone not taking any drugs, constipation on a low carb diet usually means fat intake is not high enough. On the other hand, it is also likely that some people do need a small amount of fiber to be comfortable; my DH is one of them.

From my keto diet info from the dietician: "Due to the composition of the diet, which is low in fiber, constipation can be expected. A bowel movement every three days is within the normal range on the ketogenic diet." I can compare what we experienced while she was on the diet to what we experienced off of the diet. Dietary fiber is a good thing!

What vitamins, specifically, are you referring to? Meat is more nutrient dense than any other foodstuff aside from breastmilk.

A diet of mostly cream does not contain the recommended daily allowance of probably any vitamin. A quick glance at Bowes and Church's Food Values of Portions Commonly Used is not showing any vitamin C in chicken or beef (one example--I don't have time to research further). I really question that you can get the vitamins you need from meat alone.

Atkins is not high protein. If he was eating high protein, he wasn't doing Atkins. He may have been doing Atkins wrong by eating too much lean protein and not enough fatty meat. Alternatively, if he really couldn't handle the protein level recommended by Atkins, then he probably had pre-existing undiagnosed kidney problems. If he has kidney disease, obviously his experience can't be generalized to that of healthy adults.

No kidney disease, but he ate a lot of meat as I think many people on Atkins do. Way more protein than your body actually requires and his kidneys had a problem dealing with it.

 

Again, I'm not taking issue with most low carb diets, avoiding "bad" carbs, or even taking drastic measures for a week or two. But I think from reading this thread you can get the idea that some say it is "healthy" to aim for 0 carbs or almost no carbs, and I think if people are tempted to try that, they should discuss it with their doctor or a trained dietician. If you're not getting your calories from carbs, you're taking in a lot of fat and/or protein. This can definitely cause medical problems--we've seen them. Not a healthy long-term lifestyle.

[Mejane]

 

Tomorrow is another day

 

Good for you for thinking this way. Make this your mantra. :001_smile:

[Mejane]

Yeah, I know that conventional wisdom says that non-starchy vegetables are magical. I disagree, a bit. I certainly don't think they're harmful. But I also don't think they're *required* for health on a low carb diet, or that there's sufficient evidence to support an elevated nutritional status over animal products.

 

Non-starchy vegetables are more nutritive than nutrient-poor processed carbs. But all of the necessary vitamins and minerals are also found in meat, organs, and eggs, often more biologically available and in greater quantities.

 

True, there are compounds found in plants that appear to have anti-cancer properties in cell culture plates. Developing these compounds as drugs might be useful. But no matter what Prevention magazine says (;)), you're on shaky ground to assume that you get the same anti-cancer benefits by eating the plant itself.

 

A diet high in non-starchy plant foods may very well reduce heart disease and cancer, but it is important not to confuse correlation with causation. Do plants act to reduce cancer and heart disease? Or do plant foods replace things that we'd otherwise be consuming (like sucrose, fructose, and trans fats), which might actively promote cancer and heart disease?

 

Frankly, I think it is the latter: excess fructose, partially hydrogenated fats, even refined vegetable oils are the most likely culprits in most diseases of modern civilization. Replacing these things with plant foods (or animal foods!) would likely improve your cardiac and cancer risk profile. (Gluten is another possible suspect, even for those that aren't celiac, but I'm not completely convinced on that one...yet.)

 

There are lots of reasons to argue for diet higher in plant foods: ethics, sustainability, replacing less healthy foods. But on a low-fructose background, I'm not convinced that vegetables are important for health. Variety, sure. But the jury is still out on additional health benefits, assuming you're already on a low-fructose diet.

 

For anyone interested in further reading, I'd suggest Taubes' book Why We Get Fat, or his earlier, more comprehensive Good Calories, Bad Calories. Kurt Harris' blog PaNu is also worth perusing for a medical/scientific perspective. He gives glucose (starch) a bit more of a break than Taubes does, and I think that's fair, unless one is dealing with diabetes or obesity.

 

Very interesting post. Thanks.

[trying my best]

i am on Somersize diet.

You cant eat sugar, white flower and such

Carbs are brown rice, green bees, peas, fruits and such.

I dont eat "Carbs" food with my protein and another way round.

[jplain]

I was aware that the need for certain nutrients actually decreases as you decrease your carb intake, but I did not know that Vitamin C was one of them. In fact, just purely from my brother's experience of developing gum disease when he went very low-carb, I thought the opposite was true. If you happen to have more info on this, I would love to read it.

Ooo, that's interesting. The first time I went in for a cleaning after going low carb, my hygienist tsk-tsk'd at my gums. They weren't horrible, but she was shocked, as I've always had excellent gum health and there was no increase in plaque. I had three theories: (1) viral gingivitis caused by the cold I had at the time, (2) adjusting to starting fish oil supplements (I'm a bleeder even w/o fish oil), or (3) temporary irritation caused by an evolving population of oral flora (shifting to bacteria that didn't need as much glucose to thrive). With no change in diet, the next time I went in my gums were back to normal.

 

Someone with normal stores of vitamin C shouldn't become deficient very quickly, as it is stored in non-fatty body tissues. Unless deficient to begin with, it should take ~3 months of zero intake for the earliest scurvy symptoms to develop. Did he say how quickly he developed gingivitis after going low carb? On the other hand, I certainly don't disbelieve him. We're not simple machines, and I do believe that some people have very different micronutrient needs than others. And I have read of people developing scurvy-like skin lesions on a low carb diet, which then seemed to reverse after increasing veggies. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any cases in which vitamin C levels were tested and shown to be low during the period of symptoms.

 

Regarding vitamin C requirement when low carb: I read up on this a while ago, so I don't have a specific list of references. However, I do know that pages 319-326 of Good Calories, Bad Calories and the relevant citations were my starting point.

 

One idea is that more vitamin C is required when there's a lot of glucose around, because vit C and glucose compete with each other for the GLUT 1, 3, and 4 transporters in the intestine. When there's a lot of glucose around, the GLUT transporters are busy moving glucose, and vitamin C can only be absorbed via other transport systems.

 

A second line of thinking involves vitamin C's function as an antioxidant, and the idea that a high carb diet might also increase the biological requirement for antioxidants. Fructose and (to a lesser extent) glucose run amok oxidizing things, and vitamin C participates in reversing that oxidative damage. Decreasing fructose intake should reduce oxidative damage and thus reduce the need for antioxidants.

 

Anecdotally, many who were taking vitamin C supplements before going low carb find that their bowel tolerance changes dramatically after going low carb. (If you've high dosed vitamin C before, you may have noticed that beyond a certain amount, it causes diarrhea. ;)) These low carbers find that they reach bowel tolerance at lower doses than before going low carb. Honestly, I'm not sure how to interpret that, as bowel tolerance is a somewhat vague concept...but it is curious.

Edited February 10, 2011 by jplain

[Greta]

Someone with normal stores of vitamin C shouldn't become deficient very quickly, as it is stored in non-fatty body tissues. Unless deficient to begin with, it should take ~3 months of zero intake for the earliest scurvy symptoms to develop. Did he say how quickly he developed gingivitis after going low carb?

 

It definitely wasn't immediate. I'm thinking six months, but I could ask him to be sure.

 

On the other hand, I certainly don't disbelieve him.

 

Well, he wasn't sure that it had anything to do with the LC diet. He asked me what I knew about gum disease, I said I had read it was correlated with Vit C deficiency. And just googling, I found some claims that LC-ers were prone to this problem and a story about one young man who allegedly developed scurvy, and the article was placing the blame squarely on his extremely LC diet. But there are some pretty strong anti-LC sentiments out there, so you do have to take it with a grain of salt. Plus, correlation doesn't equal causation, not to mention that with a sample size of two people, you can't even prove correlation! ;)

 

And he experienced so many benefits from the diet that he wasn't about to give it up. I recommended amla powder for Vitamin C, and that did seem to help. But again, that whole correlation and causation thing. :) Who knows.

 

Regarding vitamin C requirement when low carb: I read up on this a while ago, so I don't have a specific list of references. However, I do know that pages 319-326 of Good Calories, Bad Calories and the relevant citations were my starting point.

 

One idea is that more vitamin C is required when there's a lot of glucose around, because vit C and glucose compete with each other for the GLUT 1, 3, and 4 transporters in the intestine. When there's a lot of glucose around, the GLUT transporters are busy moving glucose, and vitamin C can only be absorbed via other transport systems.

 

A second line of thinking involves vitamin C's function as an antioxidant, and the idea that a high carb diet might also increase the biological requirement for antioxidants. Fructose and (to a lesser extent) glucose run amok oxidizing things, and vitamin C participates in reversing that oxidative damage. Decreasing fructose intake should reduce oxidative damage and thus reduce the need for antioxidants.

 

Very interesting stuff. Thank you so much for posting! :001_smile: