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[mom2bee]

Removed by the Author.

[Mergath]

Mostly, for the reasons you've already listed. And don't forget the prestige aspect, which is secretly why I think a lot of homeschoolers go for Latin. When applying to every Ivy League college in the country, it is much more impressive to be fluent (if there is such a thing for a dead language) in Latin than Spanish or French.

 

Also, if you're a Lit major and are going to specialize in certain areas for graduate school, knowing Latin is helpful as many translations, I've heard, leave much to be desired for the advanced student.

 

For my dd, I plan to have her study a bit of Latin, and a lot of Spanish. Given the increasing Spanish-speaking population here, not knowing Spanish in ten years will be as handicapping as it would be for a Canadian not to speak French.

[Dmmetler]

My DD would say "Because it's fun!". She is thrilled with how languages connect, loves recognizing where words come from, and Latin is probably her single favorite subject (with Greek, Spanish, and English Grammar all fighting for 2nd).

[MyFourSons]

Have you read "Climbing Parnassus" by Tracy Lee Simmons? He basically answers this question while examining the history of classsical education. Some find it a dull read and feel it is a bit "elitist," but I really found it fascinating. Also, "The Latin Centered Curriculum" gives some reasoning as to why Latin should be the center of the curriculum and what that could look like in a modern homeschool. I was able to check both of these out through intra-library loan.

 

As mentioned, students in the past would learn Latin and Greek so they could actually read the "classics" such as Plutarch, Virgil, Aristotle, Homer, in as close to the original Greek and Latin as possible. They were then expected to translate these works as part of their studies. This is a very difficult task, and it is very intellectually rigorous, so it is also a type of "training" for the mind that allows for harder analytical work later on. It is also considered by many to be more difficult to learn ancient Greek and Latin than modern languages in general, and that is why it is also more "prestigious." It is simply harder, and so it is seen as an accomplishment.

 

I compare it to learning how to drive. Anyone can learn how to drive, most people do, but not everyone learns to drive 16 wheeler. Driving a big rig requires you to engage your whole body and pay attention to the entire vehicle, while driving a compact car with no clutch is relatively easy and doesn't take too much thought. To me, this is the difference between the modern languages and Latin or Greek.

 

Many proponents of this type of education make it clear that it is not for everybody, not all students will excel at the classics, and not all students should be expected to. But, the brightest and/or hardest working students should have an opportunity for this type of rigorous education, they deserve a chance to reach their full potential. if your student shows an interest and has the ability, it is a worthy path to pursue.

 

Of course, I didn't study the classics when I was in school, so these are all second hand opinions. I also don't personally feel this is the only way to give your child a "rigorous" education. But I am learning along with my kids, and I do find Latin more rigorous than the modern languages I was exposed to in high school and college, but we are using a Latin program that would probably be considered laughably easy by classical scholars of the past.

[forty-two]

"Improve Vocabulary" -- I can do that by studying roots of Greek and Latin

"ACE Vocabulary portion on TEST" --- Uh...I can do this by studying ROOTs? Why should I burden myself with vocabulary, grammar, etc...

 

Yeah, neither of these has ever struck me as particularly persuasive on their own - nice fringe benefits, sure, but hardly a driving force.

 

"Get a Deeper Understanding of Grammar" -- Study of almost ANY foreign language will do this! Really! Study French, Japanese, Spanish, Chinese, even Sign Language and you're bound to learn more about your own lanugages grammar.

Yes and no. I agree that there's nothing inherent to Latin that makes it way awesomer ;) than other languages - any grammar-heavy foreign language study would have this effect. (Although there may be something to the idea of having the language be sufficiently different from one's native language, yet not *too* different.)

 

But you might have to work a bit to find a grammar-heavy study of a modern foreign language - as most current foreign language teaching approaches do their best to eliminate any hint of explicit grammar :glare:. I mean, I hang out on a "teach Latin as a language, not a logic puzzle" list, and they borrow lots of modern language teaching ideas. But even as far as some of them have gotten from the traditional Latin teaching model, and as much as they downplay grammar, ALL of them still use a "grammar-translation" approach as the modern language educators define it :001_huh:. I'm sure there are people and texts still doing grammar-heavy approaches to teaching modern languages - but they are in a decided minority.

 

"Read Classic works of Literature" -- You mean the same ones that have been translated into modern English and are on sale at almost every Borders or Barnes and Nobles location in the country?

Here I disagree - translations just are not the same. Sometimes I don't care enough to learn a given language to read the original ;) - but I know I'm not getting the full experience. And this is the primary reason I'm learning Latin - so I can read stuff in Latin :tongue_smilie: (Greek and Hebrew, too).

 

I think that learning to critically analyze high-level works in another language is great brain-training - the only question is what language(s)? I also think it is a very good idea to study one or two civilizations in depth, in addition to getting an overview of world history and cultures - the only question is which civilization(s)? Well, since I'm American, with my ancestors all coming from Western Europe, it makes sense to me to have my indepth study be on the civilizations who had the strongest impact on western civilization - the Greeks and Romans. And since most of their foundational works are written in Latin (and Greek), that makes my choice of language for indepth study obvious.

 

Anyway, those are my personal "Why Latin?" reasons :001_smile:.

[WiseOwlKnits]

My DD says she wants to be a doctor when she grows up. She's said the same thing every time she's been asked since she was 2. Granted, she could still change her mind since she is only 6, but I figure if she does want to go to medical school she'll need to know Latin. She enjoys learning it too, which is a nice bonus.

[angela in ohio]

I'm asking this of those who study, studied or will study Latin as a LANGUAGE.

 

I'm sorry, but I just have to ask: What is the point?

 

Why do YOU study it in YOUR Homeschool?

 

To my way of thinking, its better to study English vocabulary and learn a modern language that you'll actually get some use out of. (No, it doesn't have to be Latin-based! Learn Japanese if it makes you happy!) Better yet, do both. Homeschooling certainly allows the time. :001_smile:

 

I don't see much point in the study of Latin. Whether you consider it dead or evolved. The standard reasons for studying Latin have never carried much weight with me.

 

"Improve Vocabulary" -- I can do that by studying roots of Greek and Latin

"ACE Vocabulary portion on TEST" --- Uh...I can do this by studying ROOTs? Why should I burden myself with vocabulary, grammar, etc... You could, but you learn the roots more easily and completely when you use them and apply them in Latin translation and reading.

"Read Classic works of Literature" -- You mean the same ones that have been translated into modern English and are on sale at almost every Borders or Barnes and Nobles location in the country? It's not the same. Latin is a much more expressive language than English, and the translations are always different than the original. In Latin, I can say I love you, I love you, or I love you. you can't do that in English translations.

"Get a Deeper Understanding of Grammar" -- Study of almost ANY foreign language will do this! Really! Study French, Japanese, Spanish, Chinese, even Sign Language and you're bound to learn more about your own lanugages grammar. Study of an inflected language is more beneficial in learning grammar. So Latin is good, but so are Russian, German, etc. But then you add the other benefits of Latin, too...

 

I'm trying, really trying to appreciate Latin, but ultimately it seems like a bigger waste than investment to me...

 

Please help me out guys. I at least want to be able to appreciate and respect the study of Latin, but I just can't seem to get past the "Why bother?" mentality....I would say if you can't get to the point where you see the benefit and want to teach it, you can at least respect its study because others choose it after careful thought and consideration. :001_smile:

 

I had Latin in high school. It was the single most useful thing I learned. I also had French in high school and Spanish in college. I never used them, and I forgot most of them long ago. The Latin sent me to college for free (I credit my National Merit status and high SAT/ACT scores to Latin - both vocabulary and grammar and thinking skills.) :D

[TiaNKids]

It is a dead language but some of our words come from Latin, especially medical terms/terminology. I think its also neat to see where some of our words came from :D

[petepie2]

I posted this well over a year ago on another thread in the context of science. It's food for thought:

 

 

I'm reminded of a quote in Douglas Wilson's "Recovering the Lost Tools of Learning" that spoke of the benefits of knowing latin in preparation for learning the sciences (pg 89):

 

In 1911, Francis Kelsey reported on a conversation between a Professor Ramsey and the distinguished chemist Bauer. "I questioned him as to the relative capacities of students coming to his classes from the classical Gymnasien and the Real-Schulen respectively. I presumed that his best chemical students came to him from the Real-Schulen. 'Not at all,' he replied. 'My best students come from the Gymnasien. The students from the Real-Schulen do best at first. But after three months work here, they are, as a rule, left behind by those coming from the Gymnasien.' 'How do you account for that,' I asked; 'I understand that students in the Real-Schulen are specially instructed in chemistry.' 'Yes,' he replied; 'but the students from the Gymnasien have the best trained minds. Give me a student who has been taught his Latin grammar, and I'll answer for his chemistry.' "

[wapiti]

Some articles:

 

http://www.classicalacademicpress.com/images/samples/why_latin.pdf

 

http://www.memoriapress.com/articles/Why-Latin-2.html

 

http://www.promotelatin.org/images/stories/pdf/Why/SAT2009-newreportdataforLatin.pdf (SAT data)

 

http://latinisenglish.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/why-latin/ (more SAT data, and note the point: "Most of our nation’s founders could read Latin and even Greek, and they were able to use the English language the way a fine craftsman uses his tools. Their ability to write and say what they meant with power and elegance is largely because of the skills they learned in their youth from studying these ancient languages.")

 

http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/whylatin.html (this is an interesting one I hadn't seen before - not sure whether I agree with all his points, but it's a unique take)

 

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1273084/why_study_latin_how_latin_benefits.html

 

http://www.memoriapress.com/articles/apology-latin-math.html

 

There have been many threads on this topic, but they're very difficult to search for. Here are a couple:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163207

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36068

 

For our homeschool, I like the fact that Latin is inflected (noun endings change based on the noun's function in the sentence). You can literally see the grammar. My dd9 has had her share of issues, including language processing. Latin helps her see English grammar in a whole new light. Incidentally, she really enjoys it (ok, maybe tomorrow not so much - she has a quiz :D). I learned Latin in high school, and it made learning Spanish in college a breeze. I think the most important reason I want dd9 to learn Latin is that it helps develop a facility with language that ought to make her a better writer, thinker and arguer.

[Amy Jo]

What is the point?

To cover "Language Arts" with one course. To think logically. To read some works in their original. To stretch the mind and bring confidence in learning something hard.

 

Why do YOU study it in YOUR Homeschool?

Because Latin embodies several things I want my kids to know, and in a way that works well for my mind. (I prefer to have fewer multi-purpose threads. Plus I'm a language geek.)

 

To my way of thinking, its better to study English vocabulary and learn a modern language that you'll actually get some use out of.

We will do that too. We are doing Spanish right now. Later we will work on German (which DH speaks). Remember that because Latin is "dead" we don't have to worry about pronunciation, unlike a modern language. There are many good, low cost Latin programs, whereas a good modern language program will cost more, because (IMHO) it must include a lot of spoken language (audio or video).

 

Latin is more fun/interesting than English vocabulary.

 

"Improve Vocabulary" -- I can do that by studying roots of Greek and Latin

"ACE Vocabulary portion on TEST" --- Uh...I can do this by studying ROOTs? Why should I burden myself with vocabulary, grammar, etc...

'Cause it's fun? I did roots in school. Kinda boring. Besides, why have grammar, vocabulary, logic and all as separate books to buy and keep track of when I can have one?

 

"Read Classic works of Literature" -- You mean the same ones that have been translated into modern English and are on sale at almost every Borders or Barnes and Nobles location in the country?

Style is lost in translations. So you may get the content, but why not go further?

 

"Get a Deeper Understanding of Grammar" -- Study of almost ANY foreign language will do this! Really! Study French, Japanese, Spanish, Chinese, even Sign Language and you're bound to learn more about your own lanugages grammar.

This is true to a point. But most modern texts take a conversational approach. Which I think is good. They want you to have a good accent and the ability to USE the language. And I would imagine Latin is harder than many languages. 3 genders, declensions, conjugations, variable word order, etc.

 

Plus I DO NOT want my sons translating Spanish sentences. I want them to absorb it and think in Spanish. But translating Latin sentences has forced Mr. Speedy (aka DS8) to slow down. (It's "He runs." not "He run." We say "The farmer plows the soil." not "Farmer plows soil.")

 

I'm trying, really trying to appreciate Latin, but ultimately it seems like a bigger waste than investment to me...

To each their own. It doesn't really bother me what others do. But if you don't want to do Latin, don't. Your kids will be fine.

Edited February 7, 2011 by mtcougar832
typo

[Haiku]

I doubt any of the single reasons you listed for studying Latin is, in and of itself, the most compelling reason to do so. But when you take them all together, studying Latin is an efficient way to get all those benefits in one fell swoop. And as someone who has at one point in time been fluent enough to read literature in two other languages besides English, I have to say that translations are generally quite lacking. Each language has its own worldview and way of expressing things that generally can not be replicated in a translation. Am I particularly excited about reading Latin works? Nope. But I wish to equip my kids to do so, if they choose (and if they choose not too, no sweat). We're learning Spanish, too, so I have the modern language aspect covered. Learning Latin may not be immediately practical, but to me, practicality is not the point of education.

 

Tara

[abbeyej]

"Read Classic works of Literature" -- You mean the same ones that have been translated into modern English and are on sale at almost every Borders or Barnes and Nobles location in the country?

For this one, I believe quite strongly that there is a difference between reading works in the original language and reading translations. Certainly it's unavoidable in many circumstances, but when it comes to the foundations of Western culture (at the very least), Latin ad Greek are vitally important.

 

"Get a Deeper Understanding of Grammar" -- Study of almost ANY foreign language will do this! Really! Study French, Japanese, Spanish, Chinese, even Sign Language and you're bound to learn more about your own lanugages grammar.

Actually, this isn't true. Some languages require the student to learn and comprehend a great deal more grammar than others. French and Spanish grammar is really quite simple (and not terribly different from English). ASL grammar is very flexible and, while a bit different than English, also quite simple. While Japanese and Chinese can be difficult languages for English-speakers, it's not usually the grammar that trips people up. On the other hand, highly inflected languages (German is lightly inflected, Finnish is heavily inflected, and Latin falls somewhere in the middle) require a much deeper understanding of grammar. If you wanted to study a language solely for the purpose of grammar, Finnish or Russian might be good choices.

[Classical Katharine]

Latin's a great place to start if you want your child to eventually study another inflected language, like Greek or Russian. Those two languages are inflected, like Latin, AND involve a different alphabet, AND in the case of modern Russian also involve learning to speak and understand (in real time). Sure, you could skip Latin and just start in on one of those other languages later on, and some children will be okay, but a Latin foundation, in which they get to focus on "inflected" first, but with a familiar alphabet and (in many programs) not a huge amount of pressure to achieve oral fluency, helps a lot.

 

It's also worth saying that a roots program, unless it's extremely detailed, may not convey all the help that a study of Latin would, even when it comes to helping children learn English vocabulary. Some English words are best understood if you know not just the Latin root, but also the properties of the Latin verb form from which the English word is derived. So "memoranda" is "things to be remembered"--the "mem-" part is of course related to "memory" and "remember," but that only takes you so far; the "-anda" part is a participial ending that conveys the "things to be." (Just as in "memorandum" the "-andum" conveys "thing to be.") And even that is a clunky way of describing the components. I suppose you could just memorize those facts too, but I agree with the poster who suggested that such things sink in better when you're actually manipulating a language, and not just language-component facts.

 

The OP asks a great question, though.

[Jayne J]

Latin is cost effective.

Instead of buying:

Critical thinking program

Roots and/or vocabulary programs

Grammar program

Foreign language program

I just buy one Latin program. (Ok, I'll admit I use FLL and will until we finish with 4, but then I will likely drop grammar and continue with just Latin until high school. This, however, is only reflective of my insecurities.:D)

 

Plus I completely agree with the posters who have objected that reading a translation is not the same. A translation is always an interpretation on some level. And yes, it is important to me that my children read and study the classics, moreso than any more "practical" considerations.

I think that anyone who can thoroughly learn Latin will have little trouble picking up a Romance language such as French or Spanish later on.

[elegantlion]

:iagree: I agree with what others have already posted, but I found another benefit for us as well. Latin forces my son to stop and examine a process. When he is translating a sentence he is forced to go through several steps with one word and then repeat and repeat.

 

As I look forward to him becoming an adult I think about the career he might have where the ability to examine each step of a process is important. How many space missions have been thwarted because each step of the process was not carefully analyzed? How many times have we gotten angered by a customer service rep because the company didn't handle the details correctly? What happens when those you respond to emergency situations are not taught to think through several things in one instance?

 

We're only in our third year of Latin but I see the process becoming more ingrained in my son. There may be other ways to gain those critical thinking skills, but Latin is the best bang for my buck.

 

Oh, and we've dabbled in Japanese this year and plan to add it full time next year. So you can do both.

[AFwife Claire]

:iagree: I agree with what others have already posted, but I found another benefit for us as well. Latin forces my son to stop and examine a process. When he is translating a sentence he is forced to go through several steps with one word and then repeat and repeat.

 

As I look forward to him becoming an adult I think about the career he might have where the ability to examine each step of a process is important. How many space missions have been thwarted because each step of the process was not carefully analyzed? How many times have we gotten angered by a customer service rep because the company didn't handle the details correctly? What happens when those you respond to emergency situations are not taught to think through several things in one instance?

 

We're only in our third year of Latin but I see the process becoming more ingrained in my son. There may be other ways to gain those critical thinking skills, but Latin is the best bang for my buck.

 

Oh, and we've dabbled in Japanese this year and plan to add it full time next year. So you can do both.

 

I agree with this! I have also found that studying Latin has been a wonderful step to logical thinking for my boys. Watching them parse a sentence and seeing how their brains have to logically think through the endings and everything is very good for me to see! Also, I think learning Latin definitely helps a person understand English grammar, as the part of speech is not determined by placement iin the sentence--you actually have to understand how the words work together and what the purpose of each word is in Latin, so you can put them in the right case.

 

My oldest son is taking Spanish I right now, and it is a breeze for him--the vocab is familiar, and the verb endings are so much easier. He is also interested in learning German now. I think having a firm foundation of Latin helps one in pretty much every other field and language.

[Crimson Wife]

Because I want to build my children's brains. Researchers have found that studying full Latin (including all the declensions and conjugations) causes neural pathway growth that speeds cognitive processing.

 

Additionally, Latin is the official language of our denomination and I want my children to be able to better appreciate the Traditional Latin Mass.

[Poke Salad Annie]

:iagree: I agree with what others have already posted, but I found another benefit for us as well. Latin forces my son to stop and examine a process. When he is translating a sentence he is forced to go through several steps with one word and then repeat and repeat.

 

 

I agree with all of your post. My little guy needs the time we spend with Latin to slow him down. He's usually running at full speed on the Autobahn. :D

 

Today's lesson (#30) in GSWL is an example. He's getting a bit slower with translating his daily ten sentences. Today the conjugation chart ratcheted the difficulty up a notch. That, combined with those pesky nouns in direct object form, can get tricky very quickly. This lesson made him slow down and take the time to carefully look at each word.

[nmoira]

 

Because I want to build my children's brains. Researchers have found that studying full Latin (including all the declensions and conjugations) causes neural pathway growth that speeds cognitive processing.

This subjects of this study were bilingual children. I doubt Latin was one of the languages involved. Edited February 8, 2011 by nmoira

[nmoira]

Latin's a great place to start if you want your child to eventually study another inflected language, like Greek or Russian.

Or Finnish, which has 15 noun cases, 6 verb conjugations, 5 infinitive forms, and affirmative and negative forms for each tense. It boggles the mind.

[littlebug42]

 

Additionally, Latin is the official language of our denomination and I want my children to be able to better appreciate the Traditional Latin Mass.

 

This is the main reason we are doing Latin. Sweet-pea wanted to study it to better understand the Latin parts of the mass. There is also a Traditional Latin Mass parish here in town that I would like to visit after studying some Latin.

 

My kids love Latin right now and want to study it along with Greek. I am not certain that will continue through high school but I will make that decision later.

[Crimson Wife]

This subjects of this study were bilingual children. I doubt Latin was one of the language involved.

 

The article made it sound like it was:

 

"This is a major reason for studying Latin as the endurance of all those complicated noun declensions and verb conjugations cause neural pathways to fuse which aid in other applications."

 

It doesn't have a link to the original study (and if it was in Dutch, I wouldn't be able to read it) so I cannot be certain.

[Hedgehogs4]

I doubt any of the single reasons you listed for studying Latin is, in and of itself, the most compelling reason to do so. But when you take them all together, studying Latin is an efficient way to get all those benefits in one fell swoop. And as someone who has at one point in time been fluent enough to read literature in two other languages besides English, I have to say that translations are generally quite lacking. Each language has its own worldview and way of expressing things that generally can not be replicated in a translation. Am I particularly excited about reading Latin works? Nope. But I wish to equip my kids to do so, if they choose (and if they choose not too, no sweat). We're learning Spanish, too, so I have the modern language aspect covered. Learning Latin may not be immediately practical, but to me, practicality is not the point of education.

 

Tara

 

:iagree:

 

The Chinese have an expression "learn a new language, get a new soul." I lived in China for 2 1/2 years and I did "get a new soul" by learning their language. I still say things instinctively that have no good English translation--the Chinese just says it better, or deeper, or...something.

 

I figure the study of Latin, which is so foundational to our own culture and language, will only deepen the understanding and "soul" of what I already know. I can't wait to learn more as I teach my kids.

[nmoira]

The article made it sound like it was:

I think that was supposition on the part of the article's author, not the researchers. The study was of 13 children between the ages of 8 and 9, some of whom were were "native" bilinguals, some "school" bilinguals, and some monolinguals. Native bilinguals scored the best overall, though the sample size is small, to say the least.

 

ETA: I'm not trying to pick on you. I've just never seen a convincing study that shows studying Latin improves English vocabulary or anything else more than does studying a modern Romance language. :001_smile:

Edited February 8, 2011 by nmoira

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Personally I find many of the earlier arguments persuasive. Particularly with regards to vocabulary, grammar and training the mind to work.

 

I also think that Latin is a wonderful gateway language to many modern languages. The "Romance" languages are obvious since they have Latin roots but the grammar opens even greater opportunities. Learning Latin provides a solid foundation for learning how to learn languages that can be applied to any other foreign language. Strictly from personal experience-Latin was the fifth language (other than my native English) that I studied. Were I have to learned it much earlier I think my other language studies would have been improved. Not from the specific vocabulary and grammar (although in some cases that would have helped) but from the method, critical analysis and training it gives the brain.

 

I think much of the bashing of Latin in homeschool circles come from one of a couple places-

 

First-the individual values a useful modern language over a dead language or they have knowledge of a modern language that makes it easier/more effective to teach

 

Second-they are responding to a perception that Latin (or Ancient Greek) are elitist languages and they dislike the old fashioned private school elite atmosphere that Latin implies

 

Third-they are questioning their own choices about curricula and don't wish to teach Latin but feel they are missing something in not teaching it

 

Fourth-they dislike being told they should teach Latin (or sometimes any subject for that matter)

 

My answers would be as follows-

 

First-Teach the modern language, teach Latin and a modern language but teach a language. In the end it may not matter which one-just get those neural pathways open. If you are fluent or close to fluent in a modern language that is wonderful. Share that with your children. Choose the language that will be most useful to them in their future. All of those are wonderful reasons to prefer a modern language.

 

Second-get over the elite issue. Latin is there for the learning if you want it-no one is stopping you. That is the beauty of homeschooling.

 

Third and Fourth-If you don't want to teach Latin then don't. It won't be the end of the world. It won't end your child's ability to graduate from college. But don't defend not teaching it by implying that it is useless. It isn't useless. Knowledge is never useless. Yes, many of the skills Latin teaches can be learned by other means. This does not mean that Latin shouldn't be taught or that people are wasting their time teaching it. It is a choice-I can't teach my child all the knowledge in the world in just 13 years-some subjects will have to be dropped. So you drop Latin. So what? Just don't tell me I'm wasting my time because I teach it.

[Haiku]

Or Finnish, which has 15 noun cases, 6 verb conjugations, 5 infinitive forms, and affirmative and negative forms for each tense. It boggles the mind.

 

My husband said, "And their names are really weird." :D

 

(He's allowed to say that; he's Eastern European and comes from a country with weird names, too.)

 

Tara