S/O -- School Suspension Due To Potty-training Accidents................

[MariannNOVA]

I have to spin off and comment on this newspaper article -- first of all, the title says something about 'sign of the times.' My oldest will be 32 years old in March. When she was three years old, I wanted to send her to pre-school three mornings a week for 2.5 hours just so she could get a classroom experience (in retrospect, I have no idea why I thought this was important). That was probably 1982 or thereabouts......so to the Washington Post I say: 'Sign of the Times, INDEED!' In 1982, there were many, many schools that would not take children into the three year old room UNLESS they were officially potty-trained. One's three year old could go in the two-and-a-half year old room in diapers, but not in the three year old room unless they were in regular underwear (pull-ups did not exist at the time). My dd was potty-trained (she did it herself) at just about 2.5 years old, but I did decide against pre-school.

 

I have been a Lead Pre-School Classroom Teacher - for 2s, 3s, and up. In Fairfax County, Virginia, it is a 'licensing' hygiene issue. It has NOTHING to do with 'pushing' a child to use the toilet.

 

Classrooms for children who do not wear diapers are set up with different facilities than classrooms for children who do wear diapers. If a parent states that a child is using the toilet and wearing 'underwear' and not diapers, there is an expectation that the parent has stated that truthfully.

 

Yes, accidents happen -- but if you are in a classroom with kids everyday, one becomes fairly good at determining if something is an accident or if the child is not ready for the toilet and perhaps should be in diapers.

 

Additionally, if a school says that the child must be 'toilet-trained' that doesn't mean that one can enroll their 'almost' toilet trained child OR enroll their 'I am pretending that my child is toilet-trained b/c he/she wears big kid underwear but pees in them fairly regularly.' HUH? THAT is not being toilet-trained.

 

In my experience, lots of parents, for whatever reason, want their kids in the 'toilet-trained' group -- some think that if their child sees the other kids using the toilet, they will be motivated to use the toilet. Some parents want their child to enjoy the sometimes more 'advanced' activities that the kids in the 'toilet-trained' rooms enjoy. For me, as a teacher, classrooms where the kids are still in diapers, spend a fair amount of time with the teachers changing diapers and having everyone else lined up to have theirs changed.

 

There are tons of reasons why the 'toilet trained' room is more desirable.

 

I've had parents try to 'sneak' their kids into toilet trained classrooms wearing pull-ups (and I am not saying that the parent in the Washington post article did that) -- but according to licensing in Fairfax County Virginia, pull-ups are NOT allowed. It is very clear -- and the schools where I taught were VERY clear about that to parents. Pull-ups are not allowed in rooms where the children are toilet-trained.

 

At the most basic level of explanation, classrooms where kids are toilet-trained DO NOT HAVE changing facilities -- licensing does not require those classrooms to have changing facilities because there is an expectation that except for the occasional 'accident,' there is NO changing.

 

I understand the upheaval that the parent is involved in according to the WP article, but honestly, I have to doubt the veracity of the child truly being toilet-trained and the level of honesty that the parent shared with the school.

 

I can say that in the schools where I have taught, the criteria was VERY VERY clear. The criteria was also clear as far as tuition obligations if one's child is removed form the school before the end of the school year. VERY CLEAR.

 

I taught in one school that was three years old through 6th grade. They were explicit that the three year old had to be toilet trained and NEVER in pull-ups. The school was what is commonly referred to as an 'academic preschool.' I do understand that many, many moms want their kids in an academic pre-school, but in FFX County, it is very clear regarding diapers, pull ups and academic 3 year old classrooms.

 

I find all that stuff about fast-track potty training just absurd. A child will train to use the toilet when they are ready. Those methods mentioned with children the ages that are stated in the article are to me nothing more than another way for children to be pushed to do something for which they are not ready.

 

I feel sorry for the child who was made to leave the potty-trained classroom -- I think the parents need to be spoken to. C'mon really -- if a child is having 'accidents' numerous times a day and there is nothing physical or emotional going on (b/c I have had those little kids in my classrooms -- one little girl who at one point did have accidents -- one little boy who would NEVER go -- there were reasons in both cases as both children were toilet trained) than perhaps the child is NOT toilet trained but mom just wants the kids in that particular school and didn't want to lose her slot b/c most of those schools around here have waiting lists. At the academic pre-school where I taught, moms called and put the kids on the waiting list as soon as they learned they were pg.

 

I am a mom and I have been a classroom teacher - in classrooms where situation like this do occur. I'm sorry to say that for the most part, the moms I have seen want to leave their kids with someone else who will do the potty-training and mom wants to be dressed to the nines and run off to her high-powered position that pays a ton of money. Where I live, THAT is the norm. The schools where I taught attracted folks who could pay alot of tuition per child -- I am not commenting or even alluding to a mom who has to put her kids in day care so she can work to put food on the table. I am talking about what goes on here in a DC suburb.

 

just my .02

Edited February 1, 2011 by MariannNOVA

[Brilliant]

I think the article should have said more of what YOU said. There are plenty of daycares and preschools for kids in diapers but this was not one of them. I feel sorry for little Zoe and what her PARENTS have put her through.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I can understand where you are coming from. OTOH I think it is sad that schools cannot accommodate children with the special need of not being ready for potty training IMHO. I understand that it is against the licensing rules but I think it should be revisited since it puts a lot of pressure on having kids potty trained early.

 

 

My ds did not potty train completely till about 4 1/2 and I had nightmares that he would never be able to go to school or a day care program. It was quite an ordeal and this was before homeschooling was on my radar. I also had to work and I wanted ds to benefit from interactions with other kids since he is an only child. Most daycares and preschools did not have accommodations which was distressing to say to the least. I think if a place is in the business of educating or caring for pre-school kids then pull ups should be accommodated IMHO as a developmentally appropriate service.

 

As for the moms wanting to put their responsibilities on others I agree with you. I kept my ds home for the first 3 and half years or so with the help of family. However, I had to work at the time and I also felt being with other kids would benefit him especially as an older mom I really did not have a lot of friends with kids:(.

 

My 2 cents:)

Edited February 1, 2011 by priscilla

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I think the article should have said more of what YOU said. There are plenty of daycares and preschools for kids in diapers but this was not one of them. I feel sorry for little Zoe and what her PARENTS have put her through.

 

They are not plentiful in my area at all:(

[Parrothead]

 

In my experience, lots of parents, for whatever reason, want their kids in the 'toilet-trained' group -- some think that if their child sees the other kids using the toilet, they will be motivated to use the toilet. Some parents want their child to enjoy the sometimes more 'advanced' activities that the kids in the 'toilet-trained' rooms enjoy. For me, as a teacher, classrooms where the kids are still in diapers, spend a fair amount of time with the teachers changing diapers and having everyone else lined up to have theirs changed.

 

 

 

Do you know, this is the original reason we started homeschooling. Dd is an October baby. She missed the cut off for starting school in AZ (where we lived) and CA (which was 5 miles down the road). I could not get her into a private pre-school anywhere that would not put her with the diaper kids simply because of her birthday. At that age there is a lot of difference within months. How many times have we here told a newbie 'wait a month or 3, your kid will get it then."

 

So I can see why a parent would not want their child with the diaper kids if it wasn't absolutely necessary.

[littlebug42]

:hurray::hurray::hurray:

 

I worked at a daycare in college and you just said everything I thought when I read that article. I worked with 3 year olds and our room had no facilities for changing kids. We had a small toilet/sink room and that was it. Plus, I was responsible for 9 three year olds by myself. I did not have the time or ability to constantly change one kid. Our rules were also very clear. Of course, there were occasional accidents which is why the daycare required parents to keep a dry change of clothes in a backpack at "school". It became obvious very quickly though which kids were having accidents and which kids were snuck in by the parents who for whatever reason would not admit that their kids were not potty trained yet. In that article, I definitely hold the parent to a higher level of responsibility than the school.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

:hurray::hurray::hurray:

 

I worked at a daycare in college and you just said everything I thought when I read that article. I worked with 3 year olds and our room had no facilities for changing kids. We had a small toilet/sink room and that was it. Plus, I was responsible for 9 three year olds by myself. I did not have the time or ability to constantly change one kid. Our rules were also very clear. Of course, there were occasional accidents which is why the daycare required parents to keep a dry change of clothes in a backpack at "school". It became obvious very quickly though which kids were having accidents and which kids were snuck in by the parents who for whatever reason would not admit that their kids were not potty trained yet. In that article, I definitely hold the parent to a higher level of responsibility than the school.

 

Perhaps there should have been more staff. As a nurse, I know what it is like to work without enough people:(

[FaithManor]

Mariann,

 

You are very astute in bringing this up. The pre-school at the private school I used to teach at, was not licensed for non-toilet trained children. Yes, accidents do happen and especially if a child is not feeling well and their parents bring them anyway. The state inspectors are very understanding of those once in a while accidents. But, if they get word that the school is basically accepting, non-fully trained children, they are all over the facility like ugly on an ape! It is very unfortunate, but we've had a number of parents who try to circumvent the system and lie about the level of continence the child has in order to get them into the preschool earlier. The private school is parochial and operates the pre-school as a kind of community service. They only charge half of what other day cares and preschools charge so since it's financially advantageous to get their youngster in, you would not believe the levels of lieing we've seen! Once parent put women's sanitary napkins in their child's underwear so they would not appear to be wearing a diaper but it wouldn hopefully contain the mess since her three year old was not at all reliably potty trained for urinary continence but was for bm. The preschool teacher figured out what was going on when her aid went into the bathroom to check on the little tike since she'd been in there a while, and found the child picking up two sanitary napkins off the floor and trying to get them back into her underwear properly. UGH! This was ONE DAY before the state health inspector was visiting the facility. The parent was called at work and told to come get her child immediately. Of course, the parent never apologized for the lie, but instead cussed out the teacher and principal of the school.

 

Without more facts, I could not condemn the school for "expelling" a non-potty trained child without knowing what the terms of the contract was, how many issues they were having, what the licensing was for their facility, etc.

 

Faith

[LibraryLover]

You go! :auto:

 

You also show how loving and wonderful preschool teachers can be. This is not a preschool issue, this is a parenting issue.

[MariannNOVA]

I think the article should have said more of what YOU said. There are plenty of daycares and preschools for kids in diapers but this was not one of them. I feel sorry for little Zoe and what her PARENTS have put her through.

 

 

Thank you -- I feel sory for the little girl as well -- one would hope that mom wouldn't put their child in a situation where it probably isn't going to work out well for their child.

 

 

I can understand where you are coming from. OTOH I think it is sad that schools cannot accommodate children with the special need of not being ready for potty training IMHO. I understand that it is against the licensing rules but I think it should be revisited since it puts a lot of pressure on having kids potty trained early.

 

 

My ds did not potty train completely till about 4 1/2 and I had nightmares that he would never be able to go to school or a day care program. It was quite an ordeal and this was before homeschooling was on my radar. I also had to work and I wanted ds to benefit from interactions with other kids since he is an only child. Most daycares and preschools did not have accommodations which was distressing to say to the least. I think if a place is in the business of educating or caring for pre-school kids then pull ups should be accommodated IMHO as a developmentally appropriate service.

 

As for the moms wanting to put their responsibilities on others I agree with you. I kept my ds home for the first 3 and half years or so with the help of family. However, I had to work at the time and I also felt being with other kids would benefit him especially as an older mom I really did not have a lot of friends with kids:(.

 

My 2 cents:)

 

In red (yours) -- I agree -- around here, the schools that operate out of older properties (converted homes, for instance) simply do not have the room or facilities necessary to accomodate kids in diapers. When a child is in diapers, ffx county is very specific: there must be a changing table (not the floor), sink, hot water, wipes, covered trash can, etc. The older places, as opposed to the Minnieland's, Chesterbrook's, KinderKare's, just do not have those options. And, it is SO very interesting, that around here, moms want their kids in the 'traditional' type places, not the franchised places. As for everything else you wrote, I agree and I have been there!;)

 

Do you know, this is the original reason we started homeschooling. Dd is an October baby. She missed the cut off for starting school in AZ (where we lived) and CA (which was 5 miles down the road). I could not get her into a private pre-school anywhere that would not put her with the diaper kids simply because of her birthday. At that age there is a lot of difference within months. How many times have we here told a newbie 'wait a month or 3, your kid will get it then."

 

So I can see why a parent would not want their child with the diaper kids if it wasn't absolutely necessary.

 

I agree with you -- I kept my not toilet trained and just missed the cut off date twins home with me for a whole other year and trained them when they were ready and we did stuff ourselves. Thankfully, I had that option -- but you are right, most parents do not want their kids in the diapered room -- although, if they kept the child home a month, then their child might be ready for the 'diaper-free' room.

 

:hurray::hurray::hurray:

 

I worked at a daycare in college and you just said everything I thought when I read that article. I worked with 3 year olds and our room had no facilities for changing kids. We had a small toilet/sink room and that was it. Plus, I was responsible for 9 three year olds by myself. I did not have the time or ability to constantly change one kid. Our rules were also very clear. Of course, there were occasional accidents which is why the daycare required parents to keep a dry change of clothes in a backpack at "school". It became obvious very quickly though which kids were having accidents and which kids were snuck in by the parents who for whatever reason would not admit that their kids were not potty trained yet. In that article, I definitely hold the parent to a higher level of responsibility than the school.[/QUOTE]

 

 

Yours in red -- definitely agree -- and yes, you have so totally described a two and a half year old room -- you left out the part about how it usually smells!:ack2:

[Mejane]

ITA with you, Mariann. I was room mother for both of my kids their last year of ps, and there were certain mothers who constantly sent their kids to school sick or dirty or without supplies or snack or homework. I got to know them, and many of them were just too busy working or having "me time." I learned that some people breed, other people parent.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Mejane

[LibraryLover]

Mariann- My oldest attended a little preschool 2 monrings a week just when he was turning 4. He invited his teacher to his high school graduation party. She had tears in her eyes when she arrived, and she remembered such wonderful little details about him that she shared and we cherished. My son is also still friends with two of the children from that group. When they are over, I pull out the photos and they so enjoy them. Have you ever had a chance to see any of your students have they grew up? I would think that would be so nice.

 

I just read the whole thread, and how sad. Too bad for those kids.

Edited February 1, 2011 by LibraryLover

[MariannNOVA]

Perhaps there should have been more staff. As a nurse, I know what it is like to work without enough people:(

 

In red -- you certainly do.:grouphug:

 

As for staff in pre-schools and places like KinderKare, Chesterbrook and MinnieLand, licensing has ratios -- adult to child: different age groups, different ratios. For instance, for 4 year olds, it is 12 to 1, I think - I maybe wrong. For 3 year olds, 10 to 1. It's been awhile -- I may be off.

 

I have seen pre-school teachers and I have been the pre-school teacher who calls to the main desk and says: 'I need some help in here.' And the response has always been: 'you are at ratio. we are not sending anyone.' And three people, Director, Assistant Director and a Floater sit and surf the internet.

 

In one school (I hated this place), the Director would walk around and make sure there wasn't an extra follicle of a person in a room based on ratio -- didn't matter if there was vomit, poop, juice spill, tantrum. The day care mills operate on 'ratio.' There isn't going to be an extra teacher in a room pretty much no matter what.

 

Did the moms care? Rarely. IF a mom complained, the Director would always spin it so whatever the situation it was the teacher's fault.

 

You do not want to know the stuff I've seen -- both from parents and from Directors. There was no reason, I decided, for me to be there or for my kids to be there. I feel so sorry for so many of those kids. And it is ultimately the responsibility of their parents and their parents do nothing.

[LibraryLover]

Oh. A day care mill. That's sad.

 

In red -- you certainly do.:grouphug:

 

As for staff in pre-schools and places like KinderKare, Chesterbrook and MinnieLand, licensing has ratios -- adult to child: different age groups, different ratios. For instance, for 4 year olds, it is 12 to 1, I think - I maybe wrong. For 3 year olds, 10 to 1. It's been awhile -- I may be off.

 

I have seen pre-school teachers and I have been the pre-school teacher who calls to the main desk and says: 'I need some help in here.' And the response has always been: 'you are at ratio. we are not sending anyone.' And three people, Director, Assistant Director and a Floater sit and surf the internet.

 

In one school (I hated this place), the Director would walk around and make sure there wasn't an extra follicle of a person in a room based on ratio -- didn't matter if there was vomit, poop, juice spill, tantrum. The day care mills operate on 'ratio.' There isn't going to be an extra teacher in a room pretty much no matter what.

 

Did the moms care? Rarely. IF a mom complained, the Director would always spin it so whatever the situation it was the teacher's fault.

 

You do not want to know the stuff I've seen -- both from parents and from Directors. There was no reason, I decided, for me to be there or for my kids to be there. I feel so sorry for so many of those kids. And it is ultimately the responsibility of their parents and their parents do nothing.

Edited February 1, 2011 by LibraryLover

[MariannNOVA]

ITA with you, Mariann. I was room mother for both of my kids their last year of ps, and there were certain mothers who constantly sent their kids to school sick or dirty or without supplies or snack or homework. I got to know them, and many of them were just too busy working or having "me time." I learned that some people breed, other people parent.

 

I had one little girl in my classroom (3 year old) at Chesterbrook -- in the summer, we would bathe her with soap under the sprinkler when the kids went out for water play b/c her parents never bathed her. In the winter, we would clean her up with baby wipes - she was always filthy, her hair was matted and dirty. Her mom had recently had the little girl returned to her by CPS and the little girl had come to C'brook right after that. Anything the other teachers or I wrote up about the little girl, the Director would tear up and throw away b/c she and the mom had an agreement that there would NEVER be anything derogatory in the child's file.

 

Mariann- My oldest attended a little preschool 2 monrings a week just when he was turning 4. He invited his teacher to his high school graduation party. She had tears in her eyes when she arrived, and she remembered such wonderful little details about him that she shared and we cherished. My son is also still friends with two of the children from that group. When they are over, I pull out the photos and they so enjoy them. Have you ever had a chance to see any of your students have they grew up? I would think that would be so nice.

 

I don't know that people always understand what an enriching experience this can be if the right situation is found. I sometimes feel sad than my youngest didn't have a chance to have a similar experience at that age. I know it's silly, but it was such a lovely time that still matters to him.

 

I just read the whole thread, and how sad. Too bad for those kids.

 

Yup - I bump into them at the grocery store and other places all the time -- it is so much fun. I spent as little time as possible in day care mills. The kids I bump into are the 2nd graders who are now 7th graders. One afternoon I got out of the hummer to go return dvds, and I hear someone yelling my name: 'Mrs. ---------------, Mrs. ------------------' I turn and it is one of my former 2nd graders. When I was hired to teach that class, the sub who had been there for a month told me that this little girl was 'not very bright.' The subs words. I put the little girls' desk next to mine, and turns out she was bored stiff. She read through all the reading levels, got moved ahead into the highest group for everything and absolutely totally blossomed. She blew away her standardized test. I bump into her and her parents from time to time and I love seeing her. I probably have a dozen or so other former students with similar stories -- and it is why i so terribly miss the classroom. But, i know that for now, I have to be home. I wish all kids could have great classroom memories!:)

[Virg]

I agree completely!

 

I was a preschool teacher. I have worked in daycares that had preschool programs and then I have worked in preschools. In the former I was a daycare provider who did preschool activities and in the latter I was a teacher. The daycares had rooms for 2 year olds and then rooms for the 3 year olds. I agree that those programs should have more flexibility for children who are not yet potty trained.

 

However at the preschools I taught, (most were attached to private K-12 schools) even more staff would not have really helped. They are schools and the preschool classes were every bit as academic as the upper grades were, with the exception of a longer recess and an extra snack time. We taught all day. I had 17 children and an aide and that was plenty. Even if I had extra staff just to change diapers the child would have missed out on crucial activities. It isn't like the children are just playing dress up. They got report cards and the Kindergarten class wouldn't allow the children to move up until they had meet certain criteria, which included knowing all the sounds to each letter, being able to write them all, basic addition and subtraction, etc. Also like has been mentioned, the school was set up as a school, I am not even sure where it would have been appropriate to set up a diaper changing area.

 

Now, whether or not I agree with that much pressure on 3 and 4 year olds is quite another story! :glare: Let's just say my twins only came with me on field trip days! lol

[lamamaloca]

I can understand where you are coming from. OTOH I think it is sad that schools cannot accommodate children with the special need of not being ready for potty training IMHO. I understand that it is against the licensing rules but I think it should be revisited since it puts a lot of pressure on having kids potty trained early.

 

Having non-potty trained kids usually means a lower ratio for the class, which would mean a higher tuition. I think many parents wouldn't want that.

[LibraryLover]

Teachers are not strangers. Children are not being 'raised by strangers' when they have this sort of relationship. Our school felt like a loving community, and I still sometimes miss it. I love hsing, but the atmosphere at our school was so wonderful and supportive. I can understand why a teacher would miss it as well.

 

 

 

Yup - I bump into them at the grocery store and other places all the time -- it is so much fun. I spent as little time as possible in day care mills. The kids I bump into are the 2nd graders who are now 7th graders. One afternoon I got out of the hummer to go return dvds, and I hear someone yelling my name: 'Mrs. ---------------, Mrs. ------------------' I turn and it is one of my former 2nd graders. When I was hired to teach that class, the sub who had been there for a month told me that this little girl was 'not very bright.' The subs words. I put the little girls' desk next to mine, and turns out she was bored stiff. She read through all the reading levels, got moved ahead into the highest group for everything and absolutely totally blossomed. She blew away her standardized test. I bump into her and her parents from time to time and I love seeing her. I probably have a dozen or so other former students with similar stories -- and it is why i so terribly miss the classroom. But, i know that for now, I have to be home. I wish all kids could have great classroom memories!:)

[FaithManor]

Mejane,

 

I think that we should have your observation made into a bumper sticker and painted on billboards. "Some people breed, others parent!" Then, let's follow that up with, "Don't be a mere breeder!"

 

Faith

[MariannNOVA]

I agree completely!

 

I was a preschool teacher. I have worked in daycares that had preschool programs and then I have worked in preschools. In the former I was a daycare provider who did preschool activities and in the latter I was a teacher. The daycares had rooms for 2 year olds and then rooms for the 3 year olds. I agree that those programs should have more flexibility for children who are not yet potty trained.

 

However at the preschools I taught, (most were attached to private K-12 schools) even more staff would not have really helped. They are schools and the preschool classes were every bit as academic as the upper grades were, with the exception of a longer recess and an extra snack time. We taught all day. I had 17 children and an aide and that was plenty. Even if I had extra staff just to change diapers the child would have missed out on crucial activities. It isn't like the children are just playing dress up. They got report cards and the Kindergarten class wouldn't allow the children to move up until they had meet certain criteria, which included knowing all the sounds to each letter, being able to write them all, basic addition and subtraction, etc. Also like has been mentioned, the school was set up as a school, I am not even sure where it would have been appropriate to set up a diaper changing area.

 

Now, whether or not I agree with that much pressure on 3 and 4 year olds is quite another story! :glare: Let's just say my twins only came with me on field trip days! lol

 

I taught at a pre-k to 12 school that was similar. The kids had to take an extrance evaluation to be allowed into the Kindergarten - very similar to what you described. There were 30 kids each in two kindergarten classes with a teacher and an aide -- there was homework and an incredibly academic day. It was the same for their Jr. Kindergarten (4 year olds) as far as academics and the like. I think that diapers were allowed in the 2 year old room, but after that, no diapers.

 

I think that schools meet the licensing requirements and it's unusual to find a school that can or will bend. I suggested once when I was very new to all this that a little boy be allowed into the three year old room maybe just for circle time and craft project as he was incredibly verbal and certainly capable of doing what we did in the three year old room (he was three) -- he was in diapers, though, and I was told by the Director that diapers were not permitted in the 3 year old room. And someone here mentioned licensing - and, yes, once licensing thinks they have found a hotbed of violations (b/c violations cost the provider $$$), they will show up unannounced a hundred times a week. Also, there would be so many instances of a staff member being dismissed and you just knew that licensing would be coming around b/c they would call and report anything real or imagined that would warrant a visit to the school. It is was a most unpleasant environment.

[MariannNOVA]

Teachers are not strangers. Children are not being 'raised by strangers' when they have this sort of relationship. Our school felt like a loving community, and I still sometimes miss it. I love hsing, but the atmosphere at our school was so wonderful and supportive. I can understand why a teacher would miss it as well.

 

:iagree: I miss it, my dd11 had this relationship with her 4 year old preschool teacher - who we see all the time around town. Those relationships, are unfortunately, though, few and far between, I'm sorry to say.:crying:

[LibraryLover]

:iagree: I miss it, my dd11 had this relationship with her 4 year old preschool teacher - who we see all the time around town. Those relationships, are unfortunately, though, few and far between, I'm sorry to say.:crying:

 

 

That's so sad about few & far. We were very, very blessed. :grouphug: I also remember loving some of my teachers. My 6th grade teacher was especially wonderful. I often think about her.

Edited February 1, 2011 by LibraryLover

[MariannNOVA]

That's so sad about few & far. We were very, very blessed. :grouphug: I also remember loving some of my teachers. My 6th grade teacher was especially wonderful. I often think about her.

 

OMH -- my sixth grade teacher was the BEST. Dr. Elizabeth Anne Huntington -- what a wonderful person she was! And I do remember my Kindergarten teacher -- she lived with her parents around the block from us. Funny the stuff we remember.

 

And, in high school (private girls school) I had the same French and Latin teachers that my mom had when she was in high school -- how funny is that. They were always calling me by my mom's maiden name. My sister, 6 years younger than me, had them for French and Latin as well.:)

[LibraryLover]

OMH -- my sixth grade teacher was the BEST. Dr. Elizabeth Anne Huntington -- what a wonderful person she was! And I do remember my Kindergarten teacher -- she lived with her parents around the block from us. Funny the stuff we remember.

 

And, in high school (private girls school) I had the same French and Latin teachers that my mom had when she was in high school -- how funny is that. They were always calling me by my mom's maiden name. My sister, 6 years younger than me, had them for French and Latin as well.:)

 

 

That's wonderful!

 

ETA: Crud, I forgot where I was for a minute. I will delete once you read....hurry up! Don't c & p. lol Hope you got a chance, i deleted.

Edited February 1, 2011 by LibraryLover

[MariannNOVA]

That's wonderful!

 

ETA: Crud, I forgot where I was for a minute. I will delete once you read....hurry up! Don't c & p. lol Hope you got a chance, i deleted.

 

:001_huh: I missed it.

 

You wanted me to use, um, good judgement, huh?;)

[TravelingChris]

In terms of daycare mills- I didn't think I was a very nurturing mother since while I gave my kids hugs, kisses, all those things, I wasn't extremely lovey dovey. But even my serious, analytical self could not leave my oldest in a daycare mill. I was so horrified by it. It wasn't simply one place but a number of such places in two different states. Screaming children, not enough workers (according to me, not the state maybe), and general chaos. Had I seen good daycares? Yes. The base daycares were always neat, calm and well organized. I also couldn't leave my son there since I only needed part time care. I found a series of good home daycare providers. I always chose ones who acted like they liked children. DIdn't have any issues with any of them. I did have a problem with one academic pre-school. The school part wasn't the problem but the before care and after care was. Had to pull out my son and go back to home daycare again. Then he had base pre-school and then regular school and then no more daycare except for occasional parents' night out or drop off for one of my doctor's appt.

[LidiyaDawn]

I'm curious - my two are 12 & 14 and neither went to "preschool" (nor did such a thing exist where we lived when they were the ages for it - there was just a few basic daycares)... what do these "preschools" do for/with special needs kids who aren't potty-trained - not through lack of wanting, but because they simply can't be.. ? (I'm talking about kids who likely never will be)

 

Are the preschools still able to refuse those kids? Or are there laws that handle that?

[Farrar]

To me what seems to have been the big shift is less about potty training and more about the perceived need to have your 3 yo in an academic preschool program or s/he will be behind down the road. I don't think people felt that so much 20 years ago. I think the bigger the city or more affluent the area (meaning that the DC area gets has it in spades) then the greater the pressure to make that happen. Not having put my kids in preschool, I may be misunderstanding this, but I think for some programs, they start kids all together in the fall, meaning that the pressure to get your kid started "on time" and into a program you like (or that you can afford or that is in a reasonable location for you) becomes even greater because otherwise you risk losing your space.

 

All those things together just seem to be everything that's wrong with early childhood education in this country... for more reasons than just the fact that it puts so pressure on kids to potty train on a timetable.

[Pretty in Pink]

I think that schools and day care centers that enroll pre-school aged children would be aware of what behaviors are developmentally appropriate for that age group. Obviously, not all 3 year olds are potty trained. I find it sad that a child would be kept out of the classroom from which he/she would cognitively benefit simply because they were not yet toilet trained.

 

I understand that changing diapers requires specific facilities. I get that. I just think those facilities should be standard, an expected cost, when operating such a business.

[LibraryLover]

:001_huh: I missed it.

 

You wanted me to use, um, good judgement, huh?;)

 

lol No. It's just I remembered it didn't seem apprpriate to talk about how nice school can be on a hs list. That's not why people come here.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I think that schools and day care centers that enroll pre-school aged children would be aware of what behaviors are developmentally appropriate for that age group. Obviously, not all 3 year olds are potty trained. I find it sad that a child would be kept out of the classroom from which he/she would cognitively benefit simply because they were not yet toilet trained.

 

I understand that changing diapers requires specific facilities. I get that. I just think those facilities should be standard, an expected cost, when operating such a business.

 

:iagree:

 

The thing that confuses me as well is the requirement of a changing table. I stopped using that for safety reasons when my son was around 3. I found it much easier to to change him on the toilet:) The pull ups can be ripped off at the sides and any messes easily contained usually. Then clean up and slide on a new pair:D

Edited February 2, 2011 by priscilla
spelling

[MariannNOVA]

lol No. It's just I remembered it didn't seem apprpriate to talk about how nice school can be on a hs list. That's not why people come here.

 

 

:blush:

 

Good thing we stopped!

[Dmmetler]

Programs that enroll children with special needs are either part of the public school system (where daycare rules do not apply-which is why you can only have 12 5 yr olds to one adult in a preschool setting, but can have 20+ to 1 in kindergarten), or are intended for that purpose and maintain lower ratios. When I was still working in preschool settings, the requirement was that you had to maintain ratios for the lowest functioning child in the group-so if you had a 4 yr old on a 9 month old level, you had to have the infant ratio, even if the other kids were on a 4 yr old level. This is cost prohibitive for most programs that aren't government funded.

[LibraryLover]

:001_smile: I like that one.

 

I started feeling guilty. It's not you, it's me. I hope you can someday have this conversation with someone who deserves you. ;):D

 

:blush:

 

Good thing we stopped!

[MariannNOVA]

:001_smile: I like that one.

 

I started feeling guilty. It's not you, it's me. I hope you can someday have this conversation with someone who deserves you. ;):D

 

Awwwwww.

Heaven help the person who deserves me!:lol:

[lcelmer]

My 2 cents.... A kiddo that little should be at a home, being cared for by their mother or other loving caregiver if a parent is not able to be home. :sad:

 

Potty training is something a Parent should be responsible for... not a "school"

Edited February 1, 2011 by lcelmer

[Pretty in Pink]

My 2 cents.... A kiddo that little should be at a home, being cared for by their mother or other loving caregiver if a parent is not able to be home. :sad:

 

Potty training is something a Parent should be responsible for... not a "school"

 

Not everyone has that luxury. Really. I used to be a single parent with a preschool-aged child. I had no help. I did not have a parent that was able to help me out. I could not afford in-home daycare. My son was in daycare for 40 hours per week during the time that he was potty training. The reality is that the daycare staff had to participate in his potty training. It's not like one can just quit working for an extended period of time to stay home and potty train their child, but that's not really what you are getting at, is it? I think you are trying to say that one should not work if one has a child under the age of 5 at home. You have to know that this is not a reality for many parents.

[amey311]

I worked at a national chain daycare center that didn't care about your toilet mastery :tongue_smilie:. Children were put in age-appropriate classrooms (6weeks thru 5 years). I didn't realize at the time how unique this situation was until I listened to parents talk about how wonderful it was to be able to enroll their children in a daycare/preschool situation without having mastered the toilet.

 

The downside to me, as a preschool (3.5-4.5s, typically) teacher to have children who aren't trained? Changing them. Especially changing older children. They were entitled to some measure of privacy, but the changing tables were all the same size (roomy for infants, adequate for toddlers, too short for preschoolers). Add in that all of the changing "tables" had cabinets over them and it was a delicate process to get an older child on that surface without bonking a head, and then I'd have to change a diaper (or undies) with the child's legs bent (and hope he didn't accidentally put his foot in anything).

 

My cooperating teacher had no love for changes and was willing to bargain nearly anything to have me do it. I was willing to do it, but I can completely understand how hard it can be for certain facilities to do it. I would've loved better ones. And we had a pretty great facility.

[iquilt]

I used to teach preschool at an academic preschool that also provided "after school care". The ratios are about money, bottom line. These businesses need to make money and the more teachers they have to pay, the lower the profits. The ratios were never decided based on actual reasons like what might be best for the teachers and/or the children. I did some research on this back in college as part of a classroom management course, this would have been 1993/1994 time frame. I think the ratios can be a problem for the children and the teachers. At one point I was the teacher of the 4 year olds and I had 12 full time students. No assistant required so I certainly didn't have one. I was in charge of everything, including serving lunch and cleaning up all messes. Some may disagree, but I believe those numbers make the situation much more difficult for everyone. When I started at that center I was in a baby room, just me all day with 4 babies and 2 scheduled breaks all day. I tried to hold all of those babies when I could but they spent most of their time in cribs. There should be better ratios but that would cost a lot more.

[TravelingChris]

I don't see why 3 year olds would be on a changing table. They are too big for one. Almost all of them can assist with dressing. The changing table rule seems rigid and bureaucratic, but not having anything to do with reality.

[MariannNOVA]

I used to teach preschool at an academic preschool that also provided "after school care". The ratios are about money, bottom line. These businesses need to make money and the more teachers they have to pay, the lower the profits. The ratios were never decided based on actual reasons like what might be best for the teachers and/or the children. I did some research on this back in college as part of a classroom management course, this would have been 1993/1994 time frame. I think the ratios can be a problem for the children and the teachers. At one point I was the teacher of the 4 year olds and I had 12 full time students. No assistant required so I certainly didn't have one. I was in charge of everything, including serving lunch and cleaning up all messes. Some may disagree, but I believe those numbers make the situation much more difficult for everyone. When I started at that center I was in a baby room, just me all day with 4 babies and 2 scheduled breaks all day. I tried to hold all of those babies when I could but they spent most of their time in cribs. There should be better ratios but that would cost a lot more.

 

I was reading this and shaking my head in agreement and then I looked and saw that you, too, are in Virginia. I also taught 4 year olds, had 12 full time students, and my experience was as you describe. I did everything myself: snacks, lunch, playground, classroom projects because the ratio for 4 year olds is 12 to 1. When I was places that had infant care, most of the infants spent the day in bouncy seats or infant seats -- the squeaky wheels would get the grease, so to speak -- poor little things, truly. An infant who cried would get held. A baby who was not crying, would sit in an infant seat or bouncy seat. The ratios at places with infant rooms were ALWAYS off. Teachers would bring their infants, staff would call out sick, the ratios in that room were always off.....which intrigued me because there was paper work that had to have been falsified as far as ratios. I remember one day imparticular -- the ratio was WAY OFF (the director's infant was in the room and more than a few others were there and there was not enough staff). Someone must have called licensing, because licensing showed up and the instant the Director saw their car pull in, she ran into the infant room, scooped up her infant, car seat and all, other employees with infants followed her, and they scooted out the back door.

 

This wasn't some hole in the wall place, either. It was a beautiful facility, brand new, waiting list a mile long, a well known franchise, and it went infant through Grade 3.

 

As has been said, it is about the bottom line, which is kept under control by staying at ratio. It has nothing to do with what is actually beneficial to the children.

Edited February 2, 2011 by MariannNOVA

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I don't see why 3 year olds would be on a changing table. They are too big for one. Almost all of them can assist with dressing. The changing table rule seems rigid and bureaucratic, but not having anything to do with reality.

 

:iagree:

 

As I posted earlier I stopped using it when ds was around 3. It was very easy to do it in the bathroom at the toilet:D

[MariannNOVA]

:iagree:

 

As I posted earlier I stopped using it when ds was around 3. It was very easy to do it in the bathroom at the toilet:D

 

:iagree: My three at home now were like the Flying Wallendas -- I don't think I even set up a changing table by the time they were born.

[amey311]

I don't see why 3 year olds would be on a changing table. They are too big for one. Almost all of them can assist with dressing. The changing table rule seems rigid and bureaucratic, but not having anything to do with reality.

 

For us, it was because there wasn't any other place private. I couldn't change a pull up full of loose stool just in the bathroom without laying a child down. I couldn't lay him down anywhere in a classroom or there would've been other children around. I HAD to use a changing table.

 

If a child just had wet undies and pants, it was okay to take him into the child bathrooms and help him out of wet stuff and into dry stuff. It's not only wet accidents, though.

[lcelmer]

I think you are trying to say that one should not work if one has a child under the age of 5 at home.

 

 

I'm just saying that the best place for a small person is in a home setting rather than a school setting.... I know not everyone can be at home themselves. :001_smile:

 

"Other loving caregiver" doesn't mean family only...

 

Single moms and very low income families may not have much of a choice.

[Mejane]

I wonder how much of this is a way of trying to cut down on instances or allegations of abuse/molestation. ?? Just a thought, sorry if it has been addressed and I missed it.