Haiku Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110118/ap_on_re_us/us_college_learning I particularly liked this: The findings also will likely spark a debate over what helps and hurts students learn. To sum up, it's good to lead a monk's existence: Students who study alone and have heavier reading and writing loads do well. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110118/ap_on_re_us/us_college_learning I particularly liked this: Tara So much for the socialization argument. :glare: Off to read the rest of the article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 One of the things that drives me crazy about articles like this is the assumption that all colleges can be assessed using the same measures. Just what is on the standardized exam that they are giving? My son's college has received high marks from some organizations, low marks from others. One group criticized his college because first year students were not required to take a composition course. Well, at his school, first year students all take a writing intensive seminar within a discipline of their choosing. My son's writing intensive seminar was in the music department; his roommate's was in geology. Both boys wrote weekly papers and a longer research paper for their final. Neither boy took Basic Composition, English 101 or whatever you want to call it. (At my son's school, students who need additional writing help are directed to a Writing Center. They are not forced to flounder.) I have taught at an engineering university where successful students formed study groups. Often one member of the group is stronger in math, another stronger in chemistry, yet another stronger in physics. This meeting of the minds reflects what happens in industry in which teams solve problems. I think it is a great model for future engineers, but the College Learning Assessment does not think much of it. That said, yes, I believe in challenging course work. My friend who is a history prof in the UNC system is shocked by the CC transfers who have not been required to write papers using primary source documents. These juniors fail courses in their intended major. So I know there are problems. Ugh--I just am tired of success being measured by standardization! Rant off. Jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheApprentice Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 thanks for sharing.:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gratia271 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110118/ap_on_re_us/us_college_learning Tara Thank you for posting this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Interesting. I never understood 'studying together' - studying was what one did in the library and alone. Then one came together in seminars to bump one's learning up against the other students'. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Love the quote! Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Many of DH's lower level classes have involved a ridiculous amount of group work. He got a bad grade in first semester Japanese in part because he spent so much time doing bs about websites and group projects while there was little time left for actual language instruction/learning. In other classes he would be burdened with carrying others who had little concern or commitment just so he wouldn't have his grade penalized by their poor work. Most of them probably learned very little. I daresay DH as yet has not learned much, either, but then he went in as a grown adult already capable of critical thinking, etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 So much for the socialization argument. :glare: Off to read the rest of the article. Exactly, I think there is way too much of a party culture and don't do homework culture in colleges:glare: I saw the Declining By Degrees on Netflix streaming and it was shocking.:svengo: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Geek Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I think one thing that so many people don't realize is that the college and the major both really matter. There are majors that once one graduates they are able to get jobs in decent paying careers. Medicine and engineering are a couple of examples of these. I would insist that my child do at least one major that was capable of providing them a living. This would not include any of the arts among other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginevra Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I did not read the whole article, but the thing about college is this: having a college degree creates a different perception about you and it is mostly positive. It doesn't guaranty that you are smarter, more learned, more skillful, better organized or a better problem solver than someone with no degree, but public perception is still that you are more likely to be those things if you have a degree and more of a gamble if you have no degree. This is why I am going to college at this later point in life. Obviously, there are many careers one cannot hope to have without a degree, but even for employment where college degrees are not necessary (such as self-employment), it is still helpful because of that public perception I mentioned. Which makes you feel more confident - your child's piano teacher did not go to college, but says they know music very well or your child's piano teacher was a music major in college? Most people view the later as having a greater likelihood of being a good piano teacher, but would be more skeptical of the former. The person without the education has to go to greater lengths and charge an irresistibly low fee to build clientele. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Interesting. I never understood 'studying together' - studying was what one did in the library and alone. Then one came together in seminars to bump one's learning up against the other students'. I always HATED group projects and forced group work (still do). In grad school, we had a good group in my program. We'd all do our homework and have read notes and the text, then we'd meet before class (also during the prof's office hours). If there was something we were all stuck on, we went over and asked questions, but by working together (and coming prepared) we were in good shape. It was my first good experience with a study group. So I do think study groups can be useful. But it really depends on the members and their motivation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamamaloca Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I think a lot of these results is due to the fact that many teachers AND students don't consider improving critical thinking, complex reasoning or even writing (the elements measured by the test cited) to be an essential part of college. College isn't about formation, it is about a step towards getting a job. Students don't expect to or desire to work, they want to get school done so they can get on with it. And on many campuses, campus social life is valued as much or more than education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I always HATED group projects and forced group work (still do). Me too. Without fail, every group I ended up with when I was in college couldn't find a coherent sentence with a GPS, and I did the research and the writing by myself. *shudder* I get cranky just thinking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I would insist that my child do at least one major that was capable of providing them a living. This would not include any of the arts among other things. We are thinking around this. Husband is very keen that the boys study the subjects they are interested in, then think about employability later. There are limits to this: there are certain studies which, in the UK, are considered by many to be academically worthless (media studies, for example); we also are keen for them to go to well-regarded universities. We would discourage our children from poor courses/universities, but would not, finally, forbid them. Husband took decisions about his education for pragmatic, financial reasons and still regrets them, thirty years later. Calvin currently wants to study English (maybe with history) at one of the UK's top flight universities, perhaps followed by a post-grad course in law. Hobbes is interested in marine biology, but obviously there are many years for him to change his mind. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Geek Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 We are thinking around this. Husband is very keen that the boys study the subjects they are interested in, then think about employability later. There are limits to this: there are certain studies which, in the UK, are considered by many to be academically worthless (media studies, for example); we also are keen for them to go to well-regarded universities. We would discourage our children from poor courses/universities, but would not, finally, forbid them. Husband took decisions about his education for pragmatic, financial reasons and still regrets them, thirty years later. Calvin currently wants to study English (maybe with history) at one of the UK's top flight universities, perhaps followed by a post-grad course in law. Hobbes is interested in marine biology, but obviously there are many years for him to change his mind. Laura If I am paying for part or all of the tuition for my dc to go to college, then she will need to be majoring in something that can support her. There are so many people with college degrees that are useless and that end up with tons of debt that they may never be able to pay back. I am all for being passionate about things and doing things that you enjoy, but sometimes those things have to be hobbies. A friend of mine has a degree in foreign language. If I remember right the languages that she specialized in were Spanish and French. She has been out of school for at least a couple of years and is just now hoping to get a job using this. If she would have majored in Chinese and business or one of the languages the defense department could have used she probably would have been having offers knocking at her door when she graduated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 If I am paying for part or all of the tuition for my dc to go to college, then she will need to be majoring in something that can support her. There are so many people with college degrees that are useless and that end up with tons of debt that they may never be able to pay back. For example, in husband's industry (fund management) most of the people in high positions have degrees in history, English, politics, etc. from Oxford or Cambridge. The habits of thought and rigor of the universities are valued, regardless of the subject. The company then trains the graduate in the specific, necessary skills. You don't come across people in those positions who took, say, business degrees from second- or third-tier universities. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 One of the things that drives me crazy about articles like this is the assumption that all colleges can be assessed using the same measures. Just what is on the standardized exam that they are giving? Jane :iagree: I also think it depends on the individual student. I'm perfectly happy with the education my oldest is getting, and, at the moment, he's got good leads for a nice summer job/internship even after just finishing his freshman year. Yet, at the same school, there are kids that failed courses he was taking and got A's in. I can't blame the school. Maybe the previous schools of the failing students can carry some of the blame, but I'd put the majority of it on the student and how they chose to use their time. I'm also glad we homeschooled his high school years and did it independently. He organized his time to get his work done for his high school classes. I think that was great prep for college. He felt very well prepared both in content and with time organization skills. He's doing well while also working a fair number of hours per week in his college work study job (A/V). I also have to freely admit that I won't let my boys go to a "too-low" academically school. I use incoming freshman SAT/ACT scores to determine who is too low for my standards (doesn't need to be tippy top). It probably isn't ideal, but it's what I use as it's the best I can think of. I consider schools with reasonably high SAT/ACT scores as being the "honors" equivalent of college classes. I'm not paying for low level academics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I look at it a different way....I can remember my Jr. year of college lamenting and stressing over a major. My father finally told me "just get a degree in something, you can focus on particulars in grad school." That was the BEST advice he could have given me. I was able to finish in 4 years, while my friends were waffling with a 5th year. And while they finished their undergrad, I was well on my way to my first MA. I WAS able to get a good job right out of college as an English teacher on an emergency credential while I finished up my credential and my MAs. Meanwhile, I have a dear friend who did not finish college. He works in some tech department of insurance (not exactly sure of his title). Unfortunately, he has hit the ceiling in his job. He could *do* the job as he is quite capable, but the requirement is a BA, it doesn't matter what it is in, but you must have a BA for the job. So, he has watched 28 year olds (he is 48) surpass him in his field with drama degrees! It actually irritates me to hear him whine about it because he met with his former University and they have a program that would allow him to go to school at night and finish in about 18 months.....but he won't actually DO IT! My oldest has a real gift in art. He also has Asperger's and some learning delays. You better believe I will rejoice in his college graduation in any of the Art fields! He does want to do graphics as well, so he may end up with something "marketable" after all, but honestly, I just want him to finish college. Dawn If I am paying for part or all of the tuition for my dc to go to college, then she will need to be majoring in something that can support her. There are so many people with college degrees that are useless and that end up with tons of debt that they may never be able to pay back. I am all for being passionate about things and doing things that you enjoy, but sometimes those things have to be hobbies. A friend of mine has a degree in foreign language. If I remember right the languages that she specialized in were Spanish and French. She has been out of school for at least a couple of years and is just now hoping to get a job using this. If she would have majored in Chinese and business or one of the languages the defense department could have used she probably would have been having offers knocking at her door when she graduated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I can't blame the school. Maybe the previous schools of the failing students can carry some of the blame, but I'd put the majority of it on the student and how they chose to use their time. The son of a friend of mine got 40% in his end-of-year exams. He hadn't realised that, in addition to attending lectures/seminars, he needed to be putting in at least double that time in personal study. The university should have picked up the problem earlier - he's not a lazy student, just one who needs expectations spelled out to him. Of course, there are other students who know what they should do and just don't. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lulubelle Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I haven't read the whole article, but right away the thing that sticks out at me is that the study was done on students in the first two years of college. Most of the writing and critical thinking I did was during my junior and senior year where I was in my major subjects and had plenty of papers and critical thinking going on. The first two years were on the core liberal arts stuff that wasn't so interesting as what I really wanted to be doing. I'd rather see a study on college graduates than the first two years to really believe the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Geek Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I look at it a different way....I can remember my Jr. year of college lamenting and stressing over a major. My father finally told me "just get a degree in something, you can focus on particulars in grad school." That was the BEST advice he could have given me. I was able to finish in 4 years, while my friends were waffling with a 5th year. And while they finished their undergrad, I was well on my way to my first MA. I WAS able to get a good job right out of college as an English teacher on an emergency credential while I finished up my credential and my MAs. Meanwhile, I have a dear friend who did not finish college. He works in some tech department of insurance (not exactly sure of his title). Unfortunately, he has hit the ceiling in his job. He could *do* the job as he is quite capable, but the requirement is a BA, it doesn't matter what it is in, but you must have a BA for the job. So, he has watched 28 year olds (he is 48) surpass him in his field with drama degrees! It actually irritates me to hear him whine about it because he met with his former University and they have a program that would allow him to go to school at night and finish in about 18 months.....but he won't actually DO IT! My oldest has a real gift in art. He also has Asperger's and some learning delays. You better believe I will rejoice in his college graduation in any of the Art fields! He does want to do graphics as well, so he may end up with something "marketable" after all, but honestly, I just want him to finish college. Dawn Finishing what you start IMO is a separate issue. If my dd is really gifted in art and wants to pursue it, I would encourage a business degree focused on advertising or computer graphics, web design, or something along those lines, not an art degree. I would have her research the options that she is choosing by talking to people in the fields she would be interested in, looking online for jobs that are available and looking into pay scale before spending the money on college. Of course if she wants to be a stay at home mom, I wouldn't have a problem with that. My mother beat into me that I had to have an education and had to have a career. It took me a long time to come to the conclusion that it doesn't have to be that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) It is not a girl. This is my son. He is only 12. We have discussed some options, but he has a long way to go to figure out his interests. I think you and I are on the same page, we just come at it from different angles. Dawn Finishing what you start IMO is a separate issue. If my dd is really gifted in art and wants to pursue it, I would encourage a business degree focused on advertising or computer graphics, web design, or something along those lines, not an art degree. I would have her research the options that she is choosing by talking to people in the fields she would be interested in, looking online for jobs that are available and looking into pay scale before spending the money on college. Of course if she wants to be a stay at home mom, I wouldn't have a problem with that. My mother beat into me that I had to have an education and had to have a career. It took me a long time to come to the conclusion that it doesn't have to be that way. Edited January 19, 2011 by DawnM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 This was an interesting quote from the article: "Subsequent research found students one year out of college are not faring well: One-third moved back home, and 10 percent were unemployed. The findings are troubling news for an engaged citizenry, Arum said." I wonder though.....do they track these kids for more than a year or two? Many college students, when finished with college, don't have a job strait away. So, they move back home until they can find a job. I don't see how that is a "not faring well" unless they see them living at home with no job two full years or so after college and not actively seeking employment. As for the 10 percent unemployed.....I don't think that is far off base. Who did they take into consideration? Did they include those who decided to take a year off and backpack through Europe by choice? Did they include those who have chosen to pursue grad school and not work yet? I find statistics like these to often be very misleading. Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginevra Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Meanwhile, I have a dear friend who did not finish college. He works in some tech department of insurance (not exactly sure of his title). Unfortunately, he has hit the ceiling in his job. He could *do* the job as he is quite capable, but the requirement is a BA, it doesn't matter what it is in, but you must have a BA for the job. So, he has watched 28 year olds (he is 48) surpass him in his field with drama degrees! It actually irritates me to hear him whine about it because he met with his former University and they have a program that would allow him to go to school at night and finish in about 18 months.....but he won't actually DO IT! :iagree: This is exactly what I've seen. This is why I am going to college as an adult, and it is also why I would rather my children go to college and complete any degree, rather than simply not go to college. I still intend to steer them towards degrees that will be more marketable, but any major is still preferable to no college degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 "Subsequent research found students one year out of college are not faring well: One-third moved back home, and 10 percent were unemployed. The findings are troubling news for an engaged citizenry, Arum said." Something that disturbs me about this quote is that this study may be skewed by the desperate situations of a few states. Here in Michigan, it can be very, very hard to get a job just out of college because of the high unemployment rate of a huge number of people with degrees and experience. Many of those that would normally be working for much higher wages due to all of that experience are willing to accept jobs for the entry level salaries that the new graduate would normally have been offered. Our county alone has a 20% unemployment rate. The only jobs available are county/state/federal jobs and ones that require a degree. So, normally those would have been great jobs for the newbie graduates to pursue. However, when a huge number of individuals with 20 or so years work experience plus the degree plus maybe even grad school are your competition, you are going to have a bad time. I would imagine that in some areas such as Dallas/Fort Worth that are really booming, the competition is not so fierce and companies have room for newbies that will work for less than their experienced counterparts. So, I think a study that quotes a 10% unemployment rate one year out needs to be taken with a grain of salt unless it is broken down by college major, localities, and the general unemployment rate of those areas. Statistics are easily manipulated to "make" them demonstrate the view point of the author, policitcal group, etc. This one needs some more work. As Dawn pointed out, if the student can afford it, they may deliberately take a gap year and have a vacation from the grind. Oh, and does it also account for the number of students that "work" for a reduction in their student loans? Does it count the people who work in the Peace Core, the Dr. that heads to American Samoa and only earns "room and board" for a year or two in exhange for forgiveness of up to half his/her student loans, nurses that work in the traveling nurses program (again only for room and board) for that same portion of student loans, etc.? There are those out there that are not on "salary" for a period of time after school, but still working. Any more, I don't care what the poll or statistic is that is quoted, I consider it "dribble" unless I know exactly how the statistical sampling was taken, the questions asked, who was excluded, the locale the sampling was taken in, etc. tooooooo much playing with the numbers going on these days. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 I watched Declining by Degrees last night--thanks to whoever it was that suggested it! It was interesting, but even from my flamingly liberal perspective it was unashamedly biased. Still, I lay in bed last night worrying about how my kids will afford college. I have already accepted that fact that we will be unable to help my dd16 financially. Dh says that our contribution to her college was getting her into a college prep high school (run by a local university) that focuses on kids who would not get to college without intensive help and our constant monitoring of her school work. With the littles, I will get a job (well, I have a job, part-time, now, but it's needed for everyday expenses) when they go off to college, but dh oh-so-helpfully informed me last night that by the time the littles go to college, even me working full-time won't pay for it. :( Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria from IN Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 "The schools took part on the condition that their institutions not be identified." That says it all. I recently graduated from Indiana State University, and it seemed to me that undergraduate studies has become the "new high school." There are students there who have no regard whatsoever for punctuation, grammar, or even completing a thought properly. They also expect to be carried. These kids will Facebook and Twitter and text message their way through their classes (because they're convinced their professors can't see them doing it), flip through MySpace pages full of issues of the "Red Cup Chronices" (where everyone has a red plastic glass and a beery smile), decline to study for tests or even read the assigned chapters for class discussion, and throw together papers that even my dog would cover with red ink. Yet, with 2 weeks left in the semester, they will go to their teacher and beg for extra credit.:glare: I don't know whether they've created this culture or are just perpetuating it, and the first years of Indiana's Twenty-First Century Scholars are just adding to it...I heard one student say, "Oh, I'm not going to get through it, but I'll stay a couple of semesters anyway." You can bet your sweet bippy they don't want to be identified, because they know precisely what's going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Tara, I feel for you. I'm still homeschooling the youngers and dd is in college. We make too much for her to get any help with FASFA and not enough to just be writing thousands of dollars in checks for school. She was offered a LOT of scholarship, 50% or more everywhere she applied but that was based on tuition only. Scholarships are rarely, if ever, based on the total cost of going to school. Dorms are just as expensive as tuition and the fees are just ridiculous. So, she was in a pickle. She decided to attend a local uni she could commute to from home and who offered her 75% tuition scholarships. It was a reasonably priced place so we did have just enough savings to pay for the rest of her tuition for the bulk of the four years there. However, we then found out that the program she was going into is NOT WELL REPUTED at that school. She dropped out at the last minute, went to a teaching hospital with a huge EMS program, and decided to take a couple of years and get her EMT and Paramedic licenses so she could work for a couple of years and save money for a better pre-med program. These classes were quite reasonably priced and the bonus was it is an accredited teaching program so she can get two years worth of pre-med credit for her classes. It's saving her a bundle. Maybe your dd can find a similar alternative program for whatever field she is interested in that will allow her to earn some money and save for later. Dd will live at home while she works as a medic and we will pay all of her expenses except entertainment and clothing so that she can save every dime for med school. She is a good saver thankfully. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Tara, Can you tell me more about this high school? Is it for kids who struggle academically or is it needs/financial reasons a child may not get through college? What steps do they take to help/insure success, etc...???? I am just curious as I have a child who struggles academically. As for paying for college, my DH and I have told our kids that we can help them live at home and attend the local CC and/or 4 year school, but if they choose something else, they will have to cover the difference. We haven't worked out all the details on that and we have plenty of time, but that is where we stand today. Dawn I watched Declining by Degrees last night--thanks to whoever it was that suggested it! It was interesting, but even from my flamingly liberal perspective it was unashamedly biased. Still, I lay in bed last night worrying about how my kids will afford college. I have already accepted that fact that we will be unable to help my dd16 financially. Dh says that our contribution to her college was getting her into a college prep high school (run by a local university) that focuses on kids who would not get to college without intensive help and our constant monitoring of her school work. With the littles, I will get a job (well, I have a job, part-time, now, but it's needed for everyday expenses) when they go off to college, but dh oh-so-helpfully informed me last night that by the time the littles go to college, even me working full-time won't pay for it. :( Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Geek Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 It is not a girl. This is my son. He is only 12. We have discussed some options, but he has a long way to go to figure out his interests. I think you and I are on the same page, we just come at it from different angles. Dawn I was talking about if it were my dd in your son's situation. Maybe that didn't come across clearly.:001_smile: My db never attended college, he was always afraid of it because he had a bad time all throughout school. We finally talked him into taking a few classes through the tech school towards a welding certification. He is about to finish up the program and could potentially be making $20 an hour starting out. Another big outcome of his doing this is that he now has more confidence. It hasn't cost him a fortune, he won't have an associates degree or a BS degree, and I am sure he didn't see himself doing this years ago. He should be able to make a good living at it. He is now 30. There are still trades that with some training a person can make a pretty decent living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 True, there are trades.....but I tell my children all the time that they need to find work that is not only bringing in an income, but is also meaningful and enjoyable to them. If someone enjoys snaking toilets or putting a roof on (and there are many who do) then that is fine. Some do like it! The thought of it seems very mundane to ME, and so I firmly believe in pursuing interests. My husband is a CPA.....I can't think of too many things I would rather NOT do than sit at a computer all day with numbers, but it is his bent. BTW: He majored in golf in college! :lol: Well, it was golf management and was coupled with business, but still.....when I met him he was selling cars and hating it. I pushed for him to pursue his passion, which was accounting and get his butt back to school and become an accountant. So, he got his MBT (Masters in Business Taxation) from a very good school for that field, and he is enjoying every min. of it. Dawn I was talking about if it were my dd in your son's situation. Maybe that didn't come across clearly.:001_smile: My db never attended college, he was always afraid of it because he had a bad time all throughout school. We finally talked him into taking a few classes through the tech school towards a welding certification. He is about to finish up the program and could potentially be making $20 an hour starting out. Another big outcome of his doing this is that he now has more confidence. It hasn't cost him a fortune, he won't have an associates degree or a BS degree, and I am sure he didn't see himself doing this years ago. He should be able to make a good living at it. He is now 30. There are still trades that with some training a person can make a pretty decent living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Tara, Can you tell me more about this high school? Is it for kids who struggle academically or is it needs/financial reasons a child may not get through college? Both. They work with kids from impoverished backgrounds as well as kids with IEPs. What steps do they take to help/insure success, etc...???? I am just curious as I have a child who struggles academically. Each student has an advisor, whose job it is to monitor the child's academic progress. Students meet with their advisors daily. There are learning coaches for each of the classes that kids can meet with for extra help. The school arranges tutoring in any subject for any child who needs it. The students have to present a series of 6 "gateways," which are presentations and papers, in order to graduate. In order to present a gateway, a student must have an overall average of 75% within the last 30 days. Standards are high; a 74.9% is considered a failing grade. Students must also complete 15 credit hours of college work with a C+ or better to graduate. It's a good school in many ways but, unfortunately, it is still a school and presents many of the problems that I wanted to avoid by homeschooling. But for my dd, who was adopted at an older age and struggles with emotional and learning issues, it's the best environment we could find. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Well, it sounds like a good fit and help for many kids! I was curious because one of my school counseling jobs was with a federally funded grant program to assist and follow students who were identified as first generation college bound and our job was to stay with them from grade 6-12. We didn't meet with them nearly often enough as each of us had about 1,000 students to follow, but we did have records of each, met with parents at least once per year, and had workshops we had to give several times per year. Our jobs involved more than that, but that was the jist. Dawn Both. They work with kids from impoverished backgrounds as well as kids with IEPs. Each student has an advisor, whose job it is to monitor the child's academic progress. Students meet with their advisors daily. There are learning coaches for each of the classes that kids can meet with for extra help. The school arranges tutoring in any subject for any child who needs it. The students have to present a series of 6 "gateways," which are presentations and papers, in order to graduate. In order to present a gateway, a student must have an overall average of 75% within the last 30 days. Standards are high; a 74.9% is considered a failing grade. Students must also complete 15 credit hours of college work with a C+ or better to graduate. It's a good school in many ways but, unfortunately, it is still a school and presents many of the problems that I wanted to avoid by homeschooling. But for my dd, who was adopted at an older age and struggles with emotional and learning issues, it's the best environment we could find. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 http://financiallyfit.yahoo.com/finance/article-111796-8053-5-the-most-affordable-colleges-in-america?ywaad=ad0035&nc Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mejane Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I particularly liked this: Students who study alone and have heavier reading and writing loads do well. This has been my dd's experience. What few study groups and any group projects she was involved in were a waste of time according to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Maybe it depends on the sort of class? My husband and I found having study partners or a study group very helpful, and my children are, too. For instance, my middle one says that he found a friend with whom to study physics. The friend explains the physics and my son explains the math and between the two of them, they can figure out how to do the problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brilliant Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 "Subsequent research found students one year out of college are not faring well: One-third moved back home, and 10 percent were unemployed. The findings are troubling news for an engaged citizenry, Arum said." Something that disturbs me about this quote is that this study may be skewed by the desperate situations of a few states. Here in Michigan, it can be very, very hard to get a job just out of college because of the high unemployment rate of a huge number of people with degrees and experience. Many of those that would normally be working for much higher wages due to all of that experience are willing to accept jobs for the entry level salaries that the new graduate would normally have been offered. Our county alone has a 20% unemployment rate. The only jobs available are county/state/federal jobs and ones that require a degree. So, normally those would have been great jobs for the newbie graduates to pursue. However, when a huge number of individuals with 20 or so years work experience plus the degree plus maybe even grad school are your competition, you are going to have a bad time. I would imagine that in some areas such as Dallas/Fort Worth that are really booming, the competition is not so fierce and companies have room for newbies that will work for less than their experienced counterparts. So, I think a study that quotes a 10% unemployment rate one year out needs to be taken with a grain of salt unless it is broken down by college major, localities, and the general unemployment rate of those areas. Statistics are easily manipulated to "make" them demonstrate the view point of the author, policitcal group, etc. This one needs some more work. As Dawn pointed out, if the student can afford it, they may deliberately take a gap year and have a vacation from the grind. .. Faith I agree. I didn't find the 10% statistic troubling, since it matches the US' average unemployment rate. And really, what is the other option? Should the students who started college 4 years ago when the economy was booming have foreseen the downturn and skipped college? I'm guessing far more than 10% of that group would be unemployed now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvenice Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Sad, but true. There is a great book on this called The Global Achievement Gap. It is a good resource for parents of children in hs or college, or in my case as a planning tool for my younger kids. As far as the group work is concerned, I think that is more appropriate for an MBA where you need to work closely with people all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I agree. I didn't find the 10% statistic troubling, since it matches the US' average unemployment rate. And really, what is the other option? Should the students who started college 4 years ago when the economy was booming have foreseen the downturn and skipped college? I'm guessing far more than 10% of that group would be unemployed now! I'd want to know the statistic for unemployment for the same age without a college degree. I suspect it's higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I'd be very, very interested in that statistic as well. I can say for certain that in our area, twenty somethings without the degree are worse off just because the unemployed with degrees are competing with them. Employers are delighted when they can get "more education, more experience, more whatever" for less bucks. It's sad but true. I would be very scared to be in this neck of the woods and be unemployed without degree, professional licensing, or something similar on my resume. As for high school age teens in our area, hoeing corn in the heat, shucking corn in the heat, and baby sitting or house sitting, is about all that is available to them. The competition is pretty fierce. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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