MCT and grammar questions

[swimmermom3]

While MCT continues to be one of my favorite curriculum, I now have some reservations about the effectiveness of the grammar portion, at least with my own son. Perhaps I am still smarting from the fact that he scored a 52% on the language skills portion of the K12 placement test for 6th grade and he is in 7th grade. My son seldom makes glaring usage or punctuation errors in his writing, yet that test score raises red flags for me. He may know intuitively how language works but he has certainly not mastered the appropriate terminology. Again, this could be problematic for specifically our family, but since I have been one of the vocal MCT proponents on the board, I thought it fair to bring up this issue.

 

I do not speak the language of grammar as specifically and knowledgeably as those of you who have debated this issue before. I can tell you what I saw over ds's shoulder. He was asked frequently to identify a specific type of word or phrase and he did not have the name for it.

 

I usually look at our curricula at mid-year and ask myself if it is doing the job I need it to do at the level I expect. This was a painful analysis. I am not exactly sure how we will proceed from here.

[8filltheheart]

First, I just wanted to say that I am inspired by your mid yr evaluations. I have never met a homeschooler who has done that before.

 

As far as MCT, I agree with your reservations. I am befuddled by the areas of concentration in the grammar books. I am also constantly frustrated by the number of errors. This week I found errors in the Essay bk in a punctuation exercise (2 wrong sentences labeled as correct) as well as a "marked" essay in AAW 1 that missed mistakes. Errors in curricula are a huge pet peeve. At least ship an errata page for goodness sakes.

 

As to what to do.......the easiest to implement "complete" grammar book that I have found is AG. Again, it also contains errors but no where near as many as MCT.

[Capt_Uhura]

Swimmermom can you give some examples of words or phrases he needed to come up with but couldn't? Does he have problems with the 4-level analysis or diagramming? It seems that w/ 4-level analysis, you have to come up with the word or phrase. Was the test multiple choice? What levels of MCT have you done w/ Swimmerdude?

 

the other question is whether or not you feel the test is valid. When my DS took an achievement test, I found the questions to be worded trickily (ha ha ha). On the section testing usage and mechanics, a sentence would be split across A), B), C) and D) and the student had to pick which was incorrect. Well, my son picked A) at first b/c it didn't have a period after it not realizing the sentence kept going on the B) and then the C). I always evaluate the test as objectively as possible as well as my student's performance.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Capt_Uhura

[patchfire]

I have had similar concerns. Not enough to act on, yet, because she loves MCT, and yet... I'm not convinced it's enough grammar. We test in the spring, and last year, she did both Island and Town levels. Her percentiles on all the grammar related subsections went down. I didn't run to check for statistical significance, but I'm not talking about going from 75 to 74. It was enough that my mother, who didn't have a copy of her previous scores, said, "Ooh, she really went down there, didn't she?"

 

And, yet, I feel like retention would be an issue for dd regardless of what curricula we would use. How do I balance that with her need for high-level content and the sheer enjoyment she gets from MCT versus other grammar curricula that we've tried? She's been doing Voyage this year. I want to see where her scores are at in the spring. I'm hopeful that the different structure of the ML levels with the "loops" will make a difference.

 

(I should add, I only feel this concern with the grammar portion; the poetry, vocabulary, and writing are quite strong, but I have had to correct proofreading errors. Yesterday, we read about a "baloon.")

[Country Mouse]

Swimmermom can you give some examples of words or phrases he needed to come up with but couldn't? Does he have problems with the 4-level analysis or diagramming? It seems that w/ 4-level analysis, you have to come up with the word or phrase. Was the test multiple choice? What levels of MCT have you done w/ Swimmerdude?

 

 

:bigear:

[abbeyej]

You know, my impression of MCT (I've used parts of the Town level, EV, and have the ML1 level, which I haven't truly "used") is that it's fabulous as a *supplement* -- but it assumes kids that are receiving more traditional grammar instruction as well. I think the vocab and poetry are pretty complete, and the grammar and writing genuinely *add* to more basic programs, but the grammar doesn't really stand alone. *Possibly* with a really incredibly skilled and committed teacher, but then, a teacher with enough of those things probably doesn't need MCT in the first place. ;)

 

Anyway, what I'm saying is that I like a number of things about MCT -- but I'm not comfortable with only MCT grammar.

 

And Lisa, I've posted elsewhere about how content I am with Stewart English. It's not perfect either, but in some ways I find it more detailed and in-depth with regard to grammar.

 

Again, no one just coming across this should consider it a "slam MCT" thread. Far from it. I think it's a great program for really stretching kids in certain ways. I think the poetry element (used alongside a good anthology) is truly fabulous. I think the upper-level writing really walks kids through some very important material that will help them tremendously in college... But, I also like to layer the grammar with a more traditional program as well.

[nd293]

You know, my impression of MCT (I've used parts of the Town level, EV, and have the ML1 level, which I haven't truly "used") is that it's fabulous as a *supplement* -- but it assumes kids that are receiving more traditional grammar instruction as well.

 

:iagree:Yes yes yes! You seldom hear this in MCT threads, but I have always assumed that gifted ed in PS is in addition to ordinary classes, or at least assumes that children have asbsorbed the basics through brief exposure, outside interest or background. It's supposed to make connections and stimulate thought, not simply cover the basics in a fun way. All kids could do with a fun curriculum - I assume a gifted curriculum is aiming at more than that.

 

Could be I'm totally wrong, of course :001_smile:

[Miss Marple]

After reading the responses I have to wonder if the problem could be that the students need a good basic grasp of grammar before moving/adding MCT (as Abbey mentioned). I say this because MCT is working beautifully for my boys and I've seen their test scores improve greatly as well as their writing ability (ACT tests). That said, I think I'm one of the few who is using MCT with high school students. My boys have had grammar hammered into them for years with the last couple of years being more light in basic grammar work. For us, MCT takes what they already know and presents it differently and because it is a different approach, we don't have the boredom we were feeling before. Maybe it's the combination of approaches we have used that has helped solidify their grammar/writing skills.

 

One other idea I wanted to toss out there is that one of my sons will never perform to the level of his brother because of a LD. He is unable to perform well on short passage readings or short multiple choice questions because there are fewer contextual cues. So when I say that I've seen his scores improve, they are still lower than many would like to see, but for him it is excellent performance. Could it be that something similar is happening with your ds? I did not discover the LD until ds was in 7th/8th grade. He was my voracious reader - always reading longer more complex books than his brother, but around 6th-8th grade I became conscious that there was something not quite right. His daily work and his test scores were NOT in sync. He could tell me all about a passage, define vocabulary, etc., but he could not answer short multiple choice questions about the same passage on a written test. Anyways, discovering that it was a LD was a great relief for me and for him. Now we know what to expect and realize that standardized tests will not tell much about his level of knowledge or ability.

 

I'm happy to see that you are re-evaluating after using the program. That will bring positive changes to your schooling and help others understand more about a particular curriculum.

[Irishmommy]

What if you just added a few grammar practice sentences to the beginning of the day or as warm up work?

 

I totally get what Cynthia is saying about having a strong foundation before using MCT. I think there is something to be said for just straight repetition/memorization (that's what I did when I was in school and I think it helped me tremendously).

 

I just try getting some sort of "grammar a day" type book on your son's level and start working with that. I know that Evan Moore has items like that, probably scholastic too. I wouldn't give up totally on MCT, I'd just beef it up in the areas that your son needs.

 

Oh, and I would also talk with your son about the test and really see where he thinks he needs improvement. If he's not used to taking tests, he may just be uncomfortable with the format as one mom suggested.

 

I think there is power in knowing what the "test" will look like, so the student knows what to expect. When I taught ps 9th grade, I always took time out of our schedule to discuss the format of the test and test taking strategies. Some students are not intuitive about those types of things and really need some "hand holding" in order to do well. I was not (and still am not) a good test taker and I always performed better if I knew what to expect. If it looked too foreign, I tended to freak out and not do as well, even on sections I knew. I'm not saying that is the case for Swimmerdude, I just wanted to give you something else to think about.

[JulieD]

Ack! I had just decided the grammar in MCT was enough for us, even if it was a bit light! (OK, I was going to continue to diagram the sentences in addition to four-level analysis.)

 

I have found this discussion interesting, though. One thing I noticed as I was preparing Grammar Town and Practice Town for next year is that if you go through Practice Town in order you won't be hitting a lot of verbals at the beginning. Next year I want to emphasize verbals, so I may have to switch things up a bit.

 

We do CAT's every year. (I know it's an easy test.) But my son consistently scores higher on language expression than language mechanics. He can tell which sentence is correct or better, but he doesn't do well finding the simple subject of sentences. Spelling is a problem, too; he spells OK in his written work, but when presented with four different spellings of a word, his eyes glaze over.

 

This year we are doing Growing with Grammar for our main grammar program. Island level I considered supplemental as we did it over the last half of last year and the first half of this year. We still have a few sentences in Practice Island to do. What I've been seeing is that he analyzes sentences the MCT way to do GWG; he never uses GWG to analyze an MCT sentence. So while I had thought MCT would be my daughter's program and just supplemental for my son, it seems like in actual practice he does better with MCT thinking. I just may have to accept that grammar analysis is never going to be a strong point with him.

 

Thanks for this discussion; I'll have to keep thinking about this.

 

Julie D.

[Ohdanigirl]

I have been using MCT in addition to R&S even though many have said this was not necessary and a bit of over kill. It really has made a difference for us. I looked over the MCT books and really liked them, but felt it should be more of a fun addition to grammar. Ds likes both, burt feels he has learned more from MCT. I think MCT just made put him to the test in a different way, which caused him to really struggle at first, leading to these feelings. In fact R&S has been a strong curriculum for him. He still struggles/ feels challenged by R&S. With MCT, he struggled in the beginning, but now he seems to have little difficulty.

 

The fact that these curriculums have different approaches has helped solidify what he learns. In addition,the Poetry in MCT has been great, and something that I felt was lacking in R&S.

 

Maybe finding an other curriculum to challenge your dc and make sure grammar sticks would be your best answer. Sometimes it is hard to use what you have learned with a different approach. It may have also just been testing anxiety. Hope you find the answers you are looking for.

 

HTH

 

Danielle

[Capt_Uhura]

My friend and I discussed how we do Practice Island/Town books. I read once where a poster had DC do the Practice book, then self-checked. I'm not saying the OP did this, just throwing this into the mix for others reading this thread. THe poster was not impressed w/ her DC's retention. My 2nd and 5th grader do Practice Town independently. Then we come together for discussion. WE do this every day. I read the parts of sentence. Then I may ask my 2nd grader "Why is that an adverb and not a preposition?" He answers, "It doesn't have object." Then I might repeat, "A preposition shows the relationship in space, time, or direction of it's object and another word in the sentence." And then to my 5th grader, "What questions do adverbs answer?" Then we move on to the Parts of the sentence. "Why is that a gerund and not a participle?" "IF we move this dependent clause to the end of the sentence, what changes?" My 2nd grader answers, "You don't need the comma." It takes time but we do no other grammar program and their retention, even over the summer, was near 100%. My 5th grade scored very well for grammar on the NEWA MAPS (grade 6+) last year.

 

I'm wondering if this is similar to math. We use RS. Some kids need to play all the games every week, and some kids don't. You have to figure out what type of kid you have and adjust accordingly.

 

I've not really looked at other grammar programs except for GWG so I don't know how MCT compares to say R&S as far as being light or rigorous. Could someone comment on that? I might post to MCT at the discussion board and see if he is assuming kids are getting grammar instruction elsewhere. Also, the curriculum was initially for gifted kids which often do not need repetition in their strength area so perhaps for kids whose LA is not their strength, they might need more practice than the Practice Books give.

 

My oldest did have a year of GWG under his belt before starting MCT but retention wasn't that great.

 

Another question is, does the required rigor change as the kids get older? I'm only dealing w/ Island and Town levels. Are folks seeing more repetition and/or depth required at Voyage+ levels?

 

I posted to MCT at the new board about whether the LA curriculum is meant as a supplement and that kids are getting grammar in their regular classes.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Capt_Uhura

[8filltheheart]

My friend and I discussed how we do Practice Island/Town books. I read once where a poster had DC do the Practice book, then self-checked. I'm not saying the OP did this, just throwing this into the mix for others reading this thread. THe poster was not impressed w/ her DC's retention. My 2nd and 5th grader do Practice Town independently. Then we come together for discussion. WE do this every day. I read the parts of sentence. Then I may ask my 2nd grader "Why is that an adverb and not a preposition?" He answers, "It doesn't have object." Then I might repeat, "A preposition shows the relationship in space, time, or direction of it's object and another word in the sentence." And then to my 5th grader, "What questions do adverbs answer?" Then we move on to the Parts of the sentence. "Why is that a gerund and not a participle?" "IF we move this dependent clause to the end of the sentence, what changes?" My 2nd grader answers, "You don't need the comma." It takes time but we do no other grammar program and their retention, even over the summer, was near 100%. My 5th grade scored very well for grammar on the NEWA MAPS (grade 6+) last year.

 

I'm wondering if this is similar to math. We use RS. Some kids need to play all the games every week, and some kids don't. You have to figure out what type of kid you have and adjust accordingly. Or is it something lacking in the curriculum, is the question.

 

I've not really looked at other grammar programs except for GWG so I don't know how MCT compares to say R&S as far as being light or rigorous. Could someone comment on that? I might post to MCT at the discussion board and see if he is assuming kids are getting grammar instruction elsewhere. Also, the curriculum was initially for gifted kids which often do not need repetition in their strength area so perhaps for kids whose LA is not their strength, they might need more practice than the Practice Books give.

 

My oldest did have a year of GWG under his belt before starting MCT but retention wasn't that great.

 

I really don't think that is the issue. My dd knows all of the grammar that is already taught at the Voyage level. She and I both think the approach is strange (pages on articles and just a couple of pages to cover all verbals???) I think that people that don't know grammar solidly would really struggle to teach it from MCT effectively.

[EKS]

You know, my impression of MCT (I've used parts of the Town level, EV, and have the ML1 level, which I haven't truly "used") is that it's fabulous as a *supplement* -- but it assumes kids that are receiving more traditional grammar instruction as well. I think the vocab and poetry are pretty complete, and the grammar and writing genuinely *add* to more basic programs, but the grammar doesn't really stand alone. *Possibly* with a really incredibly skilled and committed teacher, but then, a teacher with enough of those things probably doesn't need MCT in the first place. ;)

 

 

 

This is the conclusion I am coming to as well. I have used Island, Town, Voyage, and Magic Lens 1. One thing I'm not seeing is enough practice with things that go beyond the four level analysis. MCT mentions certain things--names of various verb forms, pronoun types, identifying adjective vs adverb prepositional phrases or really any modifiers--and then never provides practice.

 

The other thing that is glaringly absent is the lack of instruction and practice with punctuation and capitalization. I know he talks about these things somewhat, but it's really not enough.

 

And finally, while there is a huge jump in expectations between writing books, there is no similar leap in instruction between grammar books (except between Island and Town). Frankly, even though it's for gifted kids, it is pretty repetitive.

 

I love that MCT has given my children a solid big picture understanding of grammar and writing. The program was the only one that allowed my dyslexic son to get it. MCT also spoke to my language loving younger son in a way that no other program I tried could. I am grateful for that. But I am also in the process of looking for a more traditional program to fill in the cracks left by MCT.

[swimmermom3]

I am at this moment supposed to be dressed in my uniform and on my way out the door to a three-day swim meet that stretches over Monday. I will try to respond individually on a break this afternoon.

 

I do want to reiterate Abbey's point that this is not a "slam MCT" thread. I have far too much respect for Thompson's work and it has its place in our home. Ds did Easy Grammar before doing MCT. He's the kid that commented, "So that's how prepositional phrases work!" when we started MCT. Easy Grammar is built off of identifying prepositional phrases.:tongue_smilie:

 

No one please bail from MCT because of what you are reading here. I knew if I posted, that there were several of you who would be so kind as to help me come up with a solution. It could be the curriculum, the student, the teacher, or testing issues. That is the part that I am trying to figure out. Thanks again for your help.

[abbeyej]

...MCT mentions certain things--names of various verb forms, pronoun types, identifying adjective vs adverb prepositional phrases or really any modifiers--and then never provides practice.

...

The other thing that is glaringly absent is the lack of instruction and practice with punctuation and capitalization.

Right. There are some pretty basic grammar concepts that really aren't covered at all. And mechanics are wholly absent. Perhaps he expects that mechanics will simply be practiced in the context of writing assignments? I think for many kids, that may be enough, but certainly not for all (especially in the early years).

 

And finally, while there is a huge jump in expectations between writing books, there is no similar leap in instruction between grammar books ...

Frankly, even though it's for gifted kids, it is pretty repetitive.

 

Again, I agree. The grammar books (I haven't looked at ML2 and 3) don't get a whole lot deeper over time -- and there is a great deal of repetition from year to year.

 

Much as I love the poetry, I think this is true there as well. Even the examples (not just the concepts) repeat from year to year, though sometimes the excerpts get longer. (I think the poetry is great -- but the third and sixth books only would be fine...)

 

... Again, I'm not anti-MCT. I think there are a lot of great things about it. But I think it's also important to recognize the limitations.

Edited January 15, 2011 by abbeyej

[Capt_Uhura]

8FilltheHeart - Do you have a recommendation for a grammar program that would fill in the holes? I had toyed w/ the idea of doing GWG for a year when we have a gap between Town level and Voyage. That would be a good time to address any gaps and fill holes and keep retention high.

 

I felt verbals could have been fleshed out more at Town level but had assumed that would occur in Grammar Voyage. I do believe Grammar Voyage is next up for revamping, adding more teacher help and instruction. I haven't seen the new Grammar Island to know how different it is from the 1st edition.

 

Please see my addendum below regarding verbals....I reserve the right to change my mind, don't I? 8-)

Edited January 15, 2011 by Capt_Uhura

[Miss Marple]

The other thing that is glaringly absent is the lack of instruction and practice with punctuation and capitalization. I know he talks about these things somewhat, but it's really not enough.

 

I keep hearing this and don't understand it. Maybe I'm just defining "instruction" differently, but in ML1 my boys do a page of practice with punctuation and capitalization for every Loop. For them, that is enough. I haven't used the earlier levels so I can't speak to the amount of "instruction" on P&C. Maybe my boys had enough of that from previous programs that the practice in ML is enough.

 

I really like the way the P&C pages work because they are more difficult than the usual multiple choice question often requiring multiple answers. Often my boys get one of the answers correct, but have missed another in the same sentence. From what I've seen of the ACT and SAT, these P&C questions work well for that type of practice - recognizing the error.

 

This program is much more teacher intensive than any other grammar program we've used. I'm good with that and that is what I was looking for. But if someone is looking for worksheet practice pages to have the students work through, this isn't the program. We go over *everything*. At our last "conference" we spent about 2 hours going over all parts of the grammar/vocabulary program. The boys work through the pages on their own (except some of the readings which we do together), then we have a "conference" to go over the work. If I slack off on the "conference" their skills slide. We do not do ANY self correcting with this program - it all goes into the "conference". Sometimes we have to hash out the rules all over again and again, but that seems to make it all stick to their teflon brains.

 

I'm really intrigued by the variety of feedback on MCT. Hopefully we can put it all together and determine how it is best used in the homeschool environment. I will say that it is the best program I've found for my dyslexic son. My other son would probably do well with whatever program he used, although this one seems to make him think in ways that he doesn't normally go.

[redsquirrel]

swimmermom, I want to assure you that, as a non MCT user, I do not see this as a slam of the program. I see this as an honest assesment about strengths and weaknesses as you see them. Every program has them.

 

I had much the same concern about MCT and decided against it. Once again, I have been hearing its siren call and was going to start a thread with some questions (I still might..) but this helps clarify my thoughts and goals.

 

ps: have fun at the swim weekend!

[Kalmia]

My son just finished Grammar Town and does Practice Town daily (we use the blank space at the bottom to diagram the sentence, I am with SWB on the vital importance of diagramming; the four level analysis does nothing to demonstrate the relationship between modifiers and the words they modify). We also do GWG 5.

 

My son does not make grammatical mistakes in speech or writing very often, but often forgets the word "preposition" even though he has been studying it for 4 years! He uses the right types of prepositions in his writing, can identify prepositions and its object, tell what question it answers, and diagram it in the proper place: still if he had to come up with the word "preposition" on in a testing situation he might just draw a blank! It doesn't help that there are two other "p" terms participle and pronoun that he mixes up: he may have some kind of strange hitch in his brain OR more likely his mother (me) may be failing to do enough memory work with him. It always seems more exciting to read on in MCT than to do the drill necessary to cement the facts.

 

I know that Capt_Uhura is an exemplary teacher who quizzes her boys on their grammar facts and asks questions that tease out their level of comprehension whenever opportunities arise during the day. I never remember to do this, and I can see how much better her boys remember than mine. I must make the effort!!! Of course, MCT does not instruct the teacher to drill concepts unlike other programs. I think it is meant as a supplement for young gifted kids in school (how many public school 3rd graders study grammar at all?). That does not mean it is not worth the time, it adds excitement to a dry subject and that is a gift.

 

I am previewing and thinking of using Graded Lessons in English and Higher Lessons in English by Brainerd Kellogg and Alonzo Reed, two reprints of grammar books written in the 1800s recommended by the man who wrote The War on Grammar, while we wait for Grammar Voyage to be redone.

[Capt_Uhura]

 

I do want to reiterate Abbey's point that this is not a "slam MCT" thread. I have far too much respect for Thompson's work and it has its place in our home. Ds did Easy Grammar before doing MCT. He's the kid that commented, "So that's how prepositional phrases work!" when we started MCT. Easy Grammar is built off of identifying prepositional phrases.:tongue_smilie:

 

No one please bail from MCT because of what you are reading here. I knew if I posted, that there were several of you who would be so kind as to help me come up with a solution. It could be the curriculum, the student, the teacher, or testing issues. That is the part that I am trying to figure out. Thanks again for your help.

 

:iagree:

As part of my clarification Swimmermom, were the things he missed, the words he couldn't identify, grammar topics that hadn't been covered in MCT or had it been recovered but he didn't retain it?

 

I think strengths and weaknesses can be difficult to address. What someone sees as a weakness in a program, for ex: not enough repetition, is a strength for someone else. Now if a program is missing pertinent topics, that is a horse of a different color.

 

Upon Kalmia and MCT and SWB's recommendation, I purchased Warriner's Composition and Grammar. It is my go to source for any depth or further explanation that I need. It even has exercises in it - no answers though!

 

We also diagram most of the Practice Island sentences on the bottom of the page as well so that adds an additional layer of review and discussion.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Capt_Uhura

[Capt_Uhura]

I was thinking about verbals more and my comment about it needing more fleshing out in Grammar Town. We have done more with verbals in Paragraph Town that really cemented verbals in my mind :D as well as in my boys. And we're about midway in Practice Town and the sentences are now including verbals. In Paragraph Town, the gerund is covered in lesson 5, the participle in lesson 6, and the infinitive in lesson 7. So if someone is testing mid-year, you might not get to the parts that further cement these concepts until after later in the year.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

My children used a solid program (Shurley Grammar Levels 3 -7) and 1 semester of AG prior to MCT. I actually wasn't planning on using the grammar section of MCT until we got to the upper levels but it became obvious very quickly that they needed to start over in grammar as well (they are in 9th and 10th grades). The sentences in Grammar Town contain things that were barely touched on in Shurley Grammar. Things like clauses, verbal phrases, appositive phrases, etc. Most of these things were left until the very end of Level 7 so they were basically introduced and not used long enough to really learn. And yet, here they were in the Town level of MCT. We weren't in AG long enough to get to those, as we were in the 1st season. There is a lot we like about Shurley and that I plan to use with MCT for my younger children but my children rate AG second in evilness only to Saxon:lol: MCT Town has made them think more than anything we've used so far, which has really surprised me. We've been using MCT for only a month and those have been my observations thus far.

 

Regarding the testing, my older ds's test completely differently despite have completed the exact same grammar programs together. One scores incredibly high and the other low. One is better at grammar but the other consistently tests lower than he really is because he's just not a good test taker. He's better than he used to be but it still doesn't accurately reflect his knowledge. My other ds is an excellent test taker and while he is accelerated I think he score higher than he really is. Anyway, I take test results with a grain of salt and go more by what I observe. I don't know if that is happening with your ds but I thought I'd share in case it was helpful.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Cheryl in SoCal

[Crimson Wife]

For anyone else whose curiosity has been piqued by this thread, the K12 Language Arts placement tests can be found here. I'm going to have my DD (who has completed Grammar Town, Practice Town, and Paragraph Town) complete the test to see how she does.

[Gratia271]

I really don't think that is the issue. My dd knows all of the grammar that is already taught at the Voyage level. She and I both think the approach is strange (pages on articles and just a couple of pages to cover all verbals???) I think that people that don't know grammar solidly would really struggle to teach it from MCT effectively.

 

:iagree: I also recommend AG. It is thorough yet not overkill.

[Ohdanigirl]

We also diagram most of the Practice Island sentences on the bottom of the page as well so that adds an additional layer of review and discussion.

 

Great idea!!! I think I will have to do this as well. Hope you don't mind.

 

I also have ds do the sentences on his own, and then we discuss it later. This has helped with hs retention. He has always had retention problems, but seems to be dong good with this method.

 

Danielle

[Capt_Uhura]

We also circle adverbs, adjectives, participles and prepositional phrases and then draw an arrow to what they modify...especially if it's a sentence and we're not sure how to diagram it.

[Capt_Uhura]

I am at this moment supposed to be dressed in my uniform and on my way out the door to a three-day swim meet that stretches over Monday. I will try to respond individually on a break this afternoon.

 

I knew if I posted, that there were several of you who would be so kind as to help me come up with a solution. It could be the curriculum, the student, the teacher, or testing issues. That is the part that I am trying to figure out. Thanks again for your help.

 

Good luck at the swim meet!!!

 

I think these discussions are very helpful and fruitful. It's a good idea to re-assess every so often and see if what we're doing is working. If not, then comes the tough questions, as you pointed out....is it the curriculum, methodology, implementation, the student, the teacher......

[Crimson Wife]

Okay, I had my DD take the Language Skills Assessment #5. There were 45 questions on the test.

 

She got 28 questions or 62% correct.

 

Of the 17 questions she got incorrect, 7 were on topics she has not yet covered in MCT. Two were punctuation questions. Two were formatting questions. One was a name of verb tense question. One was a question on the name of a type of conjunction. One was a question on pronoun case (she has not yet started Latin).

 

Of the 10 questions she got wrong on topics she has covered in MCT, when I asked her to diagram the sentences in question, she realized her errors and was able to tell me the correct answers. To me, this shows that she actually does know the material and just needs to think her answers through better when taking a standardized test.

[swimmermom3]

For anyone else whose curiosity has been piqued by this thread, the K12 Language Arts placement tests can be found here. I'm going to have my DD (who has completed Grammar Town, Practice Town, and Paragraph Town) complete the test to see how she does.

 

Very quickly, your children will loathe me for bringing this up. I believe that the better the child does, the longer the test goes, up to 350 questions. The questions start at a level below your child's recommended level and move from there.

[swimmermom3]

Okay, I had my DD take the Language Skills Assessment #5. There were 45 questions on the test.

 

She got 28 questions or 62% correct.

 

Of the 17 questions she got incorrect, 7 were on topics she has not yet covered in MCT. Two were punctuation questions. Two were formatting questions. One was a name of verb tense question. One was a question on the name of a type of conjunction. One was a question on pronoun case (she has not yet started Latin).

 

Of the 10 questions she got wrong on topics she has covered in MCT, when I asked her to diagram the sentences in question, she realized her errors and was able to tell me the correct answers. To me, this shows that she actually does know the material and just needs to think her answers through better when taking a standardized test.

 

Too late. You did take and it doesn't sound to painful. Ds answered 72 questions on the English and around 94 on the math. It took a while.

[Gratia271]

For anyone else whose curiosity has been piqued by this thread, the K12 Language Arts placement tests can be found here. I'm going to have my DD (who has completed Grammar Town, Practice Town, and Paragraph Town) complete the test to see how she does.

 

Thanks for the link. I am going to pursue this for my younger two dc.

[Capt_Uhura]

Is the K12 assessment a computer adaptive test like the NWEA MAP?

[Gratia271]

Too late. You did take and it doesn't sound to painful. Ds answered 72 questions on the English and around 94 on the math. It took a while.

 

I won't tell them about that little detail. :tongue_smilie:

[8filltheheart]

Lisa,

 

Did you review which ones he missed? I followed the link and briefly skimmed some of the questions and wonder if part of it might simply be terminology. I used to teach only subjective complement, etc until I realized that some texts refer to them as pred. nom or pred adjs, etc. My kids knew whether they were adjs or nouns but that terminology was unfamiliar to them.

 

Also, I noticed that the very first question was what I would consider a spelling question and not grammar. Whew......I have some bad spellers and I can't blame ANY curriculum on that. They come by it naturally.......dh is a horrible speller as well.

 

After skimming through that test, I think that you should step back and decide just how much weight it really holds.

 

We spent hrs cleaning this morning and are waiting for company to arrive right now. I mgiht have dd take the test a little later if she is not too tired and see how she does.

 

FWIW.......if there are any gaps from MCT and that test, my strongest inclination would be that it would show up in mechanics. I don't think he teaches the concepts well and the examples are questionable. This week on pg. 158 of Essay, he has these sentences marked as correct:

 

Washington said "I agree," and Jefferson nodded.

Washington said "I agree"

When Washington arrived, Jefferson said "Welcome."

 

As briefly as the topic is covered, attention should be made to make sure it is taught correctly.

 

I still love the writing instruction even though some of the examples are wearing thin on my taste.:tongue_smilie:

[JulieD]

Wow! Lots of discussion on this one.

 

I think maybe swimmermom3's son took the online assessment test. My kids took that last year, and the results are percentage correct per grade level.

 

I looked at the printable one, and I believe the questions are similar. Although I wasn't impressed by some of the questions. Grammar isn't my strong point though. But on number 6 it identifies "standing ovation" as a participial phrase. I was under the impression that standing is the participle and ovation is the noun it modifies. I thought a participial phrase would be something like "standing on the floor" ovation. Ovation isn't the object of standing, is it? (The other choices are clearly not participial phrases, though.)

 

The other thought I had about the online test is that it creates burnout fairly easily. It's crazy that starting easier and getting harder works that way, but I know my kids got sick of doing the problems as time went on. Some of the ones they missed at the end, they would have done just fine on if they were starting out with a clear brain.

 

As I've been looking over my Town materials this afternoon, I feel pretty happy about how we'll use them next year. From this thread, I've decided to get a good grammar reference for myself, make sure we discuss the sentences together, and occasionally present test-style questions so they are prepared for that.

 

Julie D.

[Just Robyn]

For anyone else whose curiosity has been piqued by this thread, the K12 Language Arts placement tests can be found here. I'm going to have my DD (who has completed Grammar Town, Practice Town, and Paragraph Town) complete the test to see how she does.

 

Thank you.

:iagree: I also recommend AG. It is thorough yet not overkill.

 

I am now using Island level with my ds in grade 3 along with Daily Language Review. I was planning on adding JAG in grade 5 and AG in grades 6, 7, and 8. People keep saying MCT might work better with a strong grammar program used before MCT, but any thoughts on my plan to add JAG/AG in after Island and Town have been completed?

 

Also, thank you for this thread. I used to talk about the practice sentences with my ds, but I've stopped doing that on sentences that are correct and have no new material. I'll start discussing every sentence again.

[Gratia271]

You could add JAG/AG or do them in tandem. I have incorporated MCT with JAG for my twins because they love MCT. They just began Town level and also do JAG. They will begin AG thereafter. I will not use MCT beyond the Voyage level. The main reason I use MCT in addition to AG is because my son in particular loves it. He does not enjoy JAG but will do it (since he gets to do MCT also).

 

Many people would find it overkill, but it gets my son interested in doing grammar... so I go with it. :001_smile:

 

ETA: I didn't know about MCT when my oldest was younger, so she went straight to AG. She has studied foreign language from a young age, and I incorporated her grammar lessons therein until she began AG.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Gratia271

[Halcyon]

For the k12 test, I am not understanding where a child is to start. For my 8 year old (9 this summer) would I begin with test #3?

 

Thanks for clarifying. I am curious to see how he does on this, having used GWG.

ETA: oops. I think I was looking at the wrong test. Sorry.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Halcyon

[swimmermom3]

First, I just wanted to say that I am inspired by your mid yr evaluations. I have never met a homeschooler who has done that before.

 

As far as MCT, I agree with your reservations. I am befuddled by the areas of concentration in the grammar books. I am also constantly frustrated by the number of errors. This week I found errors in the Essay bk in a punctuation exercise (2 wrong sentences labeled as correct) as well as a "marked" essay in AAW 1 that missed mistakes. Errors in curricula are a huge pet peeve. At least ship an errata page for goodness sakes.

 

As to what to do.......the easiest to implement "complete" grammar book that I have found is AG. Again, it also contains errors but no where near as many as MCT.

 

Eight, I use the mid-year evaluation to ground myself more than anything. Since I began writing more of my own subjects, I find that it is easier for me to get off course, to move away from my goals, and to be bogged down in excess work. Outside test scores (often various placement tests) are not perfect indicators but they do give me some guidance. One of these days I will have enough confidence in my own teaching skills to not need them...I hope. This particular child loves to test and knows how to "play the game." I would never ask the same of his oldest sibling who who blanches at the very mention of that four-letter word.

 

I like our studies to be orderly and MCT does not feel orderly in at least the superficial details. I can't look at a table of contents in a glance and see what we are going to cover. Or it is more that I need that when I am short on time and energy. As a teacher, I need to be fully engaged in order to teach MCT and I have not given it the same focus and effort that I did last year.

 

I made a few major changes recently to the way we are doing things and I hope that will positively affect my teaching. I hesitate to completely drop MCT grammar because my kids like everything about it. To them, it makes sense. In the 13 months of school that I have used it, no one has ever complained about using any one of the components and yet, it usually takes an hour out of our days.

 

I agree with what you are saying about the mistakes in the books, but many of our home school books having editing errors and it drives me nuts. Then I come here and read one of my old posts and my difficulty with comma displacia is apparent.:tongue_smilie:

 

AG is one of the two programs I am looking at and I remember that it runs on a cycle similar to MCT's, right?

[JulieD]

Another thought, do you think there is a disconnect in our kids' thinking when asked to only find one thing in a sentence? Since we analyze the whole sentence most of the time, does it not occur to them that when asked to find, for example, the adjectives, that they still need to look at the whole sentence?

 

Julie D.

[swimmermom3]

Swimmermom can you give some examples of words or phrases he needed to come up with but couldn't? Does he have problems with the 4-level analysis or diagramming? It seems that w/ 4-level analysis, you have to come up with the word or phrase. Was the test multiple choice? What levels of MCT have you done w/ Swimmerdude?

 

the other question is whether or not you feel the test is valid. When my DS took an achievement test, I found the questions to be worded trickily (ha ha ha). On the section testing usage and mechanics, a sentence would be split across A), B), C) and D) and the student had to pick which was incorrect. Well, my son picked A) at first b/c it didn't have a period after it not realizing the sentence kept going on the B) and then the C). I always evaluate the test as objectively as possible as well as my student's performance.

 

Swimmer Dude has completed the Voyage level and is currently working on Magic Lens, Vol. 1. We will start our first loop shortly after we go through the Punctuation Rules (concise, pp. 90-101) and the Solecism Theater.

 

He has little difficulty with 4-level analysis and is able to articulate and defend his choices. It was a multiple choice test and frankly, I was so unconcerned, I didn't look much at what he was doing. There was one question that asked him to identify the superlative form of a word. He had no clue. However, I think if you asked him to identify the correct sentence that featured comparisons, that wouldn't be an issue. On another question, he was asked to identify the past perfect verb form. Nope!

 

You now have me thinking about what was tested and how that knowledge of what he does or does not know translates to his writing. I will have to think some more on that.

[Capt_Uhura]

Ok you've hit on something I've always had a question about. We covered comparative and superlative in GWG. I also brought up present perfect and past perfect tenses at some point for some reason and I made a mental note to see if that was taught in MCT.

 

I ran into a similar issue w/ my son was given the ITBS. My teacher-friend gave it and had to rush off after the test. I didn't get a chance to look at it. When the scores came back, they were pretty meaningless for me. Luckily, my friend had made note of what he missed. Without knowing that information, the test doesn't give as much info as it could. Things that he missed were either poorly worded questions or simply something we hadn't covered. I vowed then to always try to look at that test. For the NWEA MAP test, I watched remotely from another computer. :tongue_smilie: It's quite stressful. :lol: "What???? I can't believe he got that wrong!!! WOW! I can't believe he got that right! What the heck was that question asking?"

 

Even with TOCs, with every curriculum we use, I have to read through it to get a feel for it. I just have to have that big picture. For math, I buy a year ahead to have the time to do that. I wanted to buy a level up for MCT but then MCT starts putting out 2nd editions so now I don't want to do that. I'll have to put a phone call into RFWP and see what's on deck next so perhaps I can go ahead and buy.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

I looked at the printable one, and I believe the questions are similar. Although I wasn't impressed by some of the questions. Grammar isn't my strong point though. But on number 6 it identifies "standing ovation" as a participial phrase. I was under the impression that standing is the participle and ovation is the noun it modifies. I thought a participial phrase would be something like "standing on the floor" ovation. Ovation isn't the object of standing, is it? (The other choices are clearly not participial phrases, though.)

"Standing ovation" is a participial phrase. There are 2 types of participial phrases. The first is when a prepositional phrase is added after the participle, as you did in your example. The second is when an object is used after a participle, as in the example in the test. "Standing" is the participle and "ovation" is the object of the participle.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Cheryl in SoCal

[Capt_Uhura]

Swimmermom - so the superlative and past perfect tenses are not things your DS has covered in MCT? Is that what you're saying? So it's not a retention issue but absence of a topic?

[Crimson Wife]

Very quickly, your children will loathe me for bringing this up. I believe that the better the child does, the longer the test goes, up to 350 questions. The questions start at a level below your child's recommended level and move from there.

 

The site I found had different tests to print out. The one I chose (#5) had 45 questions. I chose the hardest one because DD is scheduled to take the EXPLORE test next week and I wanted to see which topics might be good to go over before then.

[Caitilin]

I am still enjoying MCT, and I am finding that my dc are thriving with it. But I have a question here, and it's really, truly non-snarky. Isn't the point of all our grammar study to make us better writers, not to make us superlative grammarians? I don't mean at all that we should not learn grammar, and learn it thoroughly, but rather that we should keep in mind what we are aiming for. I can say honestly that I never had anything approaching the level of formal grammar instruction that is provided by MCTLA, but that my grammar USAGE in both speech and writing is extremely good. I would rather that my dc be able to appropriately USE grammar, even if they can't say why, than that they are simply extremely proficient grammarians. The thing which really struck me about MCTLA is that he really cares about beauty in expression. I have not seen this emphasized to the same degree in any other program, and it's for that emphasis that I plan to stick with MCT. :001_smile:

[rafiki]

.

[Embassy]

I am still enjoying MCT, and I am finding that my dc are thriving with it. But I have a question here, and it's really, truly non-snarky. Isn't the point of all our grammar study to make us better writers, not to make us superlative grammarians?

 

I was thinking the same thing. I have just started using Island level. Has anyone here seen writing skills improve or change since using MCTLA?

[Capt_Uhura]

I have definitely seen my boys writing improve. Both my 2nd and 5th grader use complex sentences and punctuate them properly (usually - my 5th grader missed the comma today in his dictation). They both delight when they find a good word that really reflects what they want to say rather than dressing it up w/ poor adjectives or adverbs. We look at literature differently....noticing the flow of the text, poetic elements. They picking out poetic elements in stories like Wind in the Willows. I think this ultimately will make them better writers. They are also watchful for these elements in non-fiction as well. They are just more aware of language and I feel that can only help their writing in the long run.

 

You'd have to pry my MCT materials from my cold dead hands. :lol: