Why Chinese mothers are superior?

[LibraryLover]

I can sort of smile about that, Jean, given the spirit in which I am sure you say it, but I could never say that to my children. Even if there is some truth, given this article etc., it would sound racist and stereotypical to my ears (plus dishonest wrt my parenting goals). Further, one of my children is SE Asian, and that would just seem completely wrong and inappropriate.

 

I have a Jewish friend who often calls me a 'Jewish mother' because I tend to worry, but her being Jewish makes it ok. lol :)

 

Am I the only one whose been telling her kids, "You can thank God that I'm not a 'Chinese Mother' - now stop whining and do your 15 min. of piano practice!"?

 

BTW - in Japan, this kind of mother is called an "education mama". Not all Japanese moms are "education mamas" but there is a good group of them.

Edited January 10, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Jean in Newcastle]

I can sort of smile about that, Jean, given the spirit in which I am sure you say it, but I could never say that to my children. Even if there is some truth, given this article etc., it would sound racist and sterotypical to my ears. Further, one of my children is SE Asian, and that would just seem completely wrong and inappropriate.

 

We've discussed the article over the dinner table. They know the context of the phrase in this article. We've discussed how the word is being used specifically to mean one stereotype within a culture and how it doesn't apply to all people even within that culture. I'm married to an Asian, and my children are half Asian. I grew up in an Asian country as well. You are right that it could lead to significant misunderstandings/prejudice etc. if taken outside of the context of that article.

[LibraryLover]

Yes. i think it's quite different if you have lived in the culture/ are part of the culture etc. It might be fun to say something like that if my dh/ childrens' father was Asian. lol :)

 

We've discussed the article over the dinner table. They know the context of the phrase in this article. We've discussed how the word is being used specifically to mean one stereotype within a culture and how it doesn't apply to all people even within that culture. I'm married to an Asian, and my children are half Asian. I grew up in an Asian country as well. You are right that it could lead to significant misunderstandings/prejudice etc. if taken outside of the context of that article.

Edited January 10, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Heather in Neverland]

Well, well, well..it seems I have done it again. :D

 

I have read every single post and I think this has been a most fascinating discussion. After living and working in the Asian education world for a little while I can say this...

 

About 50% of our students are of Asian descent (primarily Chinese and Korean) and while I do not know what goes on inside their homes I can say that this level of intensity is pretty much the norm. I have not personally seen a parent call their kids names but ALL (and I do mean ALL regardless if they are 5yo or 15yo) take "tuition classes" outside of school.

 

This means they go to school from 8:20-3:45 and then they have extra classes they take in the evening for 2-3 hours and then they do homework for several hours. Many also take classes on the weekends.

 

When we do our yearly parent surveys inevitably the western parents think we need MORE extra-curricular and sports offerings and the asian parents think we need to focus more on academics. The western parents say we give too much homework and the asian parents say we don't give enough (we can't win :tongue_smilie:).

 

In my dealings with parents...western parents are more likely to come to me and complain that little Johnny is being worked too hard, or his teacher said something mean to him, or another child is being mean to him, or they want a special exception to some rule, etc. Asian parents that come to me only come to me for one thing...they all want their child moved into the accelerated class. :tongue_smilie:

 

At first I thought it seemed all asian parents think their children are gifted and going to Harvard and that's why they want their kids to be in all honors courses. Now after being here for a while and interacting with them more I know that it is not whether their child is gifted or not...in fact I do not think I have ever heard an asian parent use that word... they just EXPECT that their child is capable of doing honors-level work if they work hard enough.

 

Our asian students do have a tendency to outscore our western students on average BUT many of our top-scoring students are Americans. Here are some other observations that are sure to ruffle some feathers but try not to chuck a mental...they are merely little factoids I have noticed:

 

- while western students can and do score very high on tests, it is more an exception than the norm. OTOH, the MAJORITY of asian students score in the highest ranges. So out of the top 10 students in any grade, probably 7 or 8 of them are asian. Are they just innately smarter? Or do they just work harder?

 

- (this one is sure to get me in trouble)... of the western students that score in the top 10, they are all the students of two professional parents (I checked)

 

- (this one is REALLY going to get me in trouble)... of all of our "special needs" students, 90% are western and of that 90% the overwhelming majority are MKs. (not really sure what if any conclusions can be drawn from this)

 

- we have an "in-house" piano teacher who gives lessons to our students after school and we have two recitals per year. The asian students are LIGHTYEARS more talented on the piano than the western students even with the same amount of lessons under their belt. The difference is THAT stark.

 

-many of our asian students DO participate in sports but the parents approach that with the same work ethic. If you are going to do it then you are going to work hard to be the best at it.

 

So my point? Hmmm.... well, I guess my point is that there is quite a bit of truth to the article in terms of "styles" of parenting. Not sure about the name-calling but I am sure about the intensity.

 

And yes, asian parents DO see their child's success, or lack thereof, as a direct reflection of them as parents and the children do feel pressure not to "dishonor" their parents by being slackers. But I am not sure that is a bad thing. In America we have such fierce individualism that we don't want to be beholden to one another for ANYTHING. In Asian cultures there is more of a "no man is an island" mentality...in the family or in their community.

 

However, I can also tell you that if there is a group project to be done, the westerners are always the leaders of the group, the brainstormers, the big-idea-thinkers and the asian kids are the "make-it-happen" kids. Asian students tend to be very rigid in their thinking, not able to think "outside the box", etc. Also, asian students, especially in the younger years, tend to lag behind in motor skills. We had a "sports day" and one of the activities was an obstacle course. I was shocked to see that the MAJORITY of our asian youngsters had NEVER jumped rope, could not do a somersault, had difficulty hopping on one foot, jumping over things, hopscotch-ing, and even ran awkwardly. They just didn't spend much time "playing" outside to acquire these skills.

 

Living and learning together causes the students to rub off on each other though. The asian kids drive our western kids to work harder and the western kids teach the asian kids how to have fun. Both of which is needed.:D

[deacongirl]

Piano teacher's response:

 

http://contrapuntalplatypus.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/a-3rd-way/

[Ibbygirl]

- of all of our "special needs" students, 90% are western and of that 90% the overwhelming majority are MKs.

 

Heather what is a MK?? Thanks. :)

[Heather in Neverland]

Heather what is a MK?? Thanks. :)

 

a Missionary Kid

[laughing lioness]

Heather-

I wonder how skewed a few of your obervations are given that the Westerners who go there are "adventurers" and "out of the box" thinkers, merely by the fact that they are ex-pats.

[Ibbygirl]

a Missionary Kid

 

Thanks for the clarification. :) Wow! Why such a high instance amongst the missionaries I wonder? Are they all truly special needs?

[Jen in PA]

Heather what is a MK?? Thanks. :)

 

I was wondering the same thing. :D

[Murphy101]

I think it might be missionary kids? Otherwise I have no idea either.

[Charles Wallace]

I think the author goes to extremes, if what she's saying is not tongue-in-cheek, of course. I particularly hated what she did with the dollhouse and found that utterly damaging, to be honest.

 

That said, though, I think there is much both cultures can learn from each other -- hopefully without calling your children "garbage," or worse, making them feel as if they are.

 

What I found resonated with me, though, were the points she was making about Western attitudes toward school, and yes, I do realize she was painting with a broad brush. In my comments below, so am I, so please understand from the outset that I'm not speaking of every single Western family or student.

 

I strongly believe many Western parents (not homeschoolers, obviously) essentially turn the job of their children's education entirely over to the schools, and if their child fails to learn, they believe it's entirely the school's and/or teacher's fault -- almost never the fault of their child. If their child fails because s/he didn't study, it was the teacher's fault for teaching material that was too difficult or for not motivating the student.

 

I also strongly believe that the general attitude of many -- even most -- Western families is that school shouldn't be much of an effort. It shouldn't take that long, it shouldn't involve much exertion of memory or review or learning, and it shouldn't involve anything "extra" -- no extra reading, no review on the Internet or reading work outside of class, no tutoring.

 

To illustrate, I just recently explained to my students what will be on their midterm. (Mind you, they should know already, but handing out the midterm study guide is a CYA...for me. That way, I can say, "Yes, Mrs. Smith, I tried to make Johnny successful in my class by telling him exactly what was going to be on the midterm.")

 

One student raised her hand and said, "Can we use our notes on the test?" I said no.

 

She was actively affronted. Not just affronted -- appalled. "You mean we're going to have to MEMORIZE this stuff?" she said, genuinely p****d off and angry that yes, I would dare to require students in my class to learn.

 

The problem is? That attitude is very, very much SUPPORTED by the administration and parents. I almost feel like I have to "stealth teach" -- try to teach students as much as I can without attracting the wrath of the parents and the principal.

 

This is a Western attitude -- that if your kid doesn't do well in school, it's the teacher's fault.

 

I cry bull. I have very, very few illusions about teachers and sometimes, yeah, it IS the teacher's fault -- but in my professional experience, most of the time when students fail, it's their own fault and their family's fault.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Charles Wallace

[LibraryLover]

That's interesting. I am not sure exactly what to make of it, but that is quite a profound and reliable observation from someone in the trenches.

 

Piano teacher's response:

 

http://contrapuntalplatypus.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/a-3rd-way/

[yellowperch]

my caps button is broken, so please forgive the bad punctuation.

 

 

first thought--i do believe it's more fun to be able to do things, and i want my children to have the chance be accomplished. encouraging them is part of my job. some of the most wonderful things to learn are among the hardest, and the instrinsic rewards are not obvious at the outset. my idea of things is worth doing, however, is much broader than the author's. and my kids practice 30 minutes a night--not 3 hours. also, name-calling and shouting are just mean, and it makes me queasy to think about. not my style at all.

 

i think it was refreshing that this mother doesn't blame the schools for not being good enough. she's willing to do a lot of work herself. i do like that.

 

last thought--this week i also read that the average american child is in front of a screen 7.5 hours of a day. if we can--for a moment--leave the name calling and shouting out of the equation--i would say that a child who plays music for three hours a day is having a better time, and is likelier to be happier than a child watching an equivilent amount of tv.

 

and on a lighter note; what happens when there are more than a few 'chinese mothers' in a given class. who gets to be number 1//

[Heather in Neverland]

Heather-

I wonder how skewed a few of your obervations are given that the Westerners who go there are "adventurers" and "out of the box" thinkers, merely by the fact that they are ex-pats.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to my comment about westerners leading al the group projects? If so, you may be right. One of things I have noticed here and in other asian countries (like Singapore) is the inability to think out of the box or "think for themselves" as we would say. They are taught one way to do things and they do not vary from that path. You see it all the time in customer service situations.

 

Example: We are at the movies. We want to buy the 1 large popcorn with 2 cokes package. But we don't want coke, we want diet coke. It is a fountain drink situation where the diet coke is literally one lever to the right of the coke. In the U.S. you could say "I'll take package B but with a diet coke instead" ...no problem. But here? No can la. The employee just stares at you, giggles (they always laugh when embarassed) and says "no can la...must have coke." And one time they were actually OUT of coke and STILL would not give us a diet or a sprite, etc. They just wouldn't sell the package. Period.

 

That is just one silly but very indicative example of their style of thinking.

 

Also, our western kids are more likely to "question" adults...debate the rules, offer up alternative ideas, etc. Trying to do a debate club with asians is PAINFUL and group discussions are nearly impossible because it is just against their culture to have these back-and-forth exchange of ideas with an adult.

[Charles Wallace]

THIS is the major differences between our two cultures. I had a wonderful professor when earning my credential who explained that western families tell their children how smart they are, mostly because we want them to feel good. What happens is kids don't think they have to work very hard, because they were just made "smart." The Asian kids, and I grew up where Koreans were just about the majority population, are never told they are smart. They are praised for their effort and the successes they have based on that effort. They work hard because that is the road to success, not just "being" here, like getting a trophy just for being on the team. THAT concept is the most outrageous bs to ever have been created.

 

I had my first child about a year after taking that course, three kids total now, and try so hard to praise their effort and rarely use the s word (smart). But, I would never abuse my kids, and I think the examples used in the article that made our skin crawl are over the line of what we will accept in our culture, for a good reason. During my 4 years in high school, three kids committed suicide... and all three were Korean.

 

I'd like to interject a story here, though.

 

I had a friend in high school who was outrageously intelligent -- I do not think it would be at all an exaggeration to call him exceptionally or profoundly gifted. He was always an A+ student and never had to study -- he whalloped everyone in every subject, whether it was French IV or Calculus. He was (obviously) the valedictorian.

 

I saw him about a semester after he got a full, paid scholarship to a major university to major in engineering. I asked him how he was doing, and to my surprise, he said that he had flunked out. I thought (of course) that he was joking, but he wasn't.

 

Bottom line, the school had been really, really hard. Plus, his being the valedictorian didn't matter: EVERYONE had been the valedictorian at his or her school. EVERYONE had aced the SATs.

 

For the first time in his entire life, he was facing two things he had never had to face before: academic challenge and failure. It occurred to me at some point in the conversation that the supreme irony here was that I, a considerably less intelligent person, a considerably less-adept student, would have been more equipped to succeed than he: I knew how to study...and how to fail.

 

I don't know what happened to him. I hope he picked himself up, dusted himself off, and started all over again, but I honestly don't know.

 

My point is that too often, we make things far too easy for our children. We don't teach them to fail when the stakes are teeny and recoverable -- the lost swimming-pool race, for example. Learning to deal with challenge, with NOT being the best, not winning, is a crucial tool life teaches us. It can teach us early...or it can teach us late. I know which one I'd prefer.

[Ibbygirl]

Piano teacher's response:

 

http://contrapuntalplatypus.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/a-3rd-way/

 

That was a good article. I'm a musician too and I agreed with everything she said.

[LibraryLover]

Anecdote and data are such strange bedfellows. :)

Edited January 10, 2011 by LibraryLover

[justamouse]

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to my comment about westerners leading al the group projects? If so, you may be right. One of things I have noticed here and in other asian countries (like Singapore) is the inability to think out of the box or "think for themselves" as we would say. They are taught one way to do things and they do not vary from that path. You see it all the time in customer service situations.

 

Example: We are at the movies. We want to buy the 1 large popcorn with 2 cokes package. But we don't want coke, we want diet coke. It is a fountain drink situation where the diet coke is literally one lever to the right of the coke. In the U.S. you could say "I'll take package B but with a diet coke instead" ...no problem. But here? No can la. The employee just stares at you, giggles (they always laugh when embarassed) and says "no can la...must have coke." And one time they were actually OUT of coke and STILL would not give us a diet or a sprite, etc. They just wouldn't sell the package. Period.

 

That is just one silly but very indicative example of their style of thinking.

 

Also, our western kids are more likely to "question" adults...debate the rules, offer up alternative ideas, etc. Trying to do a debate club with asians is PAINFUL and group discussions are nearly impossible because it is just against their culture to have these back-and-forth exchange of ideas with an adult.

 

Which of Malcolm Gladwell's books dealt with the airplane crashes with Asian air and they found that it was the lack of anyone questioning the pilot? It was seen as disrespectful and Not Done. Crashes ensued.

 

Same thing--not allowed to question, no variation, and this time, with a much more dangerous situation, bad things happened.

[cathmom]

Which of Malcolm Gladwell's books dealt with the airplane crashes with Asian air and they found that it was the lack of anyone questioning the pilot? It was seen as disrespectful and Not Done. Crashes ensued.

 

Same thing--not allowed to question, no variation, and this time, with a much more dangerous situation, bad things happened.

 

Outliers

[LibraryLover]

I think that is in The Tipping Point. All things being equal in the clinch, what old conditioning takes hold, in the end, to save-- or doom-- the day?

 

 

Which of Malcolm Gladwell's books dealt with the airplane crashes with Asian air and they found that it was the lack of anyone questioning the pilot? It was seen as disrespectful and Not Done. Crashes ensued.

 

Same thing--not allowed to question, no variation, and this time, with a much more dangerous situation, bad things happened.

[justamouse]

Piano teacher's response:

 

http://contrapuntalplatypus.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/a-3rd-way/

 

what a great article!

[LibraryLover]

Outliers

 

 

I don't think I read the Outliers. I wonder if this story is in both books?

[justamouse]

My point is that too often, we make things far too easy for our children. We don't teach them to fail when the stakes are teeny and recoverable -- the lost swimming-pool race, for example. Learning to deal with challenge, with NOT being the best, not winning, is a crucial tool life teaches us. It can teach us early...or it can teach us late. I know which one I'd prefer.

 

Letting your kids fail. I don't disagree. I think Edison has some great quotes about his own failures.

[justamouse]

I don't think I read the Outliers. I wonder if this story is in both books?

 

I read Blink, Outliers and The Tipping Point, I can't remember and I'm not running downstairs and looking through them all. Nope, you can't make me.

 

I did get the story right, though, didn't I? That was the point. Lol.

[cathmom]

I don't think I read the Outliers. I wonder if this story is in both books?

 

 

IDK - The Tipping Point is the one of his I haven't read.

[LibraryLover]

IDK - The Tipping Point is the one of his I haven't read.

 

 

Oh. I read Blink as well. I have Outliers on hold.

 

I don't know. :)

 

I'm out. ;) lol

[LibraryLover]

 

I did get the story right, though, didn't I? That was the point. Lol.

 

LOL Yes. What book...that's the question. :D

[Perry]

LOL Yes. What book...that's the question. :D

I haven't read them yet, but Google says it's Outliers.

 

Can cultural issues cause plane crashes? Malcolm Gladwell — the wild-haired pop intellectual of “Tipping Point†fame — says yes, and dedicates a whole chapter to the subject in “Outliers: The Story of Success,†the book he just published. While it touches on aviation, the tome is largely focused on issues concerning what makes people successful. (Bottom line?: He concludes it’s a cocktail of culture, work ethic and luck.)

But Gladwell talked about the airline angle — the title of the chapter in question is called “The Ethnic Theory of Plane Crashes,†— in a recent Q&A with Fortune magazine.

 

 

F: You share a fascinating story about culture and airline safety.

 

G: Korean Air had more plane crashes than almost any other airline in the world for a period at the end of the 1990s. When we think of airline crashes, we think, Oh, they must have had old planes. They must have had badly trained pilots. No. What they were struggling with was a cultural legacy, that Korean culture is hierarchical. You are obliged to be deferential toward your elders and superiors in a way that would be unimaginable in the U.S.

 

But Boeing (BA, Fortune 500) and Airbus design modern, complex airplanes to be flown by two equals. That works beautifully in low-power-distance cultures [like the U.S., where hierarchies aren't as relevant]. But in cultures that have high power distance, it’s very difficult.

 

I use the case study of a very famous plane crash in Guam of Korean Air. They’re flying along, and they run into a little bit of trouble, the weather’s bad. The pilot makes an error, and the co-pilot doesn’t correct him. But once Korean Air figured out that their problem was cultural, they fixed it.

 

[laughing lioness]

Heather- yep, that was my point.

dh pointed out though that there are Singaporian's who are 3rd gen Britions ("Westerners") as well as that the Chineese in Singapore would be expats. It would interesting to do cultural studies there!

 

Interesting example re: the movie, the article and Gladwell. Most of the examples are performance based attachment. If they (Asians) fail, they are not attached. If they don't have the attachment, they don't know how to perform or act. There is no such thing as unconditional love.

 

In seminary we talked about "riposte", a form of argument that is common in the Middle East and throughout the Bible. I'm just tangentially thinking about missions amongst Asians and how this would be a paradigm nightmare, as well as getting across the idea of unconditional love.

 

(writing in broad, general terms here)

[LibraryLover]

I haven't read them yet, but Google says it's Outliers.

 

 

Now I have to go check my Library Shelf. So many books, so little brain RAM (being white and all. lol) :)

[Perry]

 

Now I have to go check my Library Shelf. So many books, so little brain RAM (being white and all. lol) :)

You just aren't trying hard enough to remember! Try harder! :D

[Heather in Neverland]

Heather- yep, that was my point.

dh pointed out though that there are Singaporian's who are 3rd gen Britions ("Westerners") as well as that the Chineese in Singapore would be expats. It would interesting to do cultural studies there!

 

Interesting example re: the movie, the article and Gladwell. Most of the examples are performance based attachment. If they (Asians) fail, they are not attached. If they don't have the attachment, they don't know how to perform or act. There is no such thing as unconditional love.

 

In seminary we talked about "riposte", a form of argument that is common in the Middle East and throughout the Bible. I'm just tangentially thinking about missions amongst Asians and how this would be a paradigm nightmare, as well as getting across the idea of unconditional love.

 

(writing in broad, general terms here)

 

 

Excellent question...and this has the possibility of spinning wildly off topic but I believe their commitment to family, community, ancestors and the whole saving face thing, honoring your elders, etc. makes it supremely difficult to evangelize in an asian nation using an apologetics approach and helps explain why the charasmatic denominations are wildly successful here.

 

OK, steering back onto the road... :D

[Ibbygirl]

OK, steering back onto the road... :D

 

One more tiny detour?? Pretty please with a cherry on top? It's just that this is one of my favorite skits ever and I look for any excuse to watch it again.

 

Apparently the "Chinese Method" works for some Westerners too. :D:tongue_smilie:

 

ETA this is purely tongue in cheek and intended for laughs only. :)

[justamouse]

You just aren't trying hard enough to remember! Try harder! :D

 

Let the insults begin!

 

"your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"

 

(highfives Ibby)

[beaners]

Interesting to see Outliers mentioned. The idea of 10,000 hours (I think that's the time frame in the book?) being necessary to become excellent at something flitted through my head as I read about the long practice hours mentioned in the article.

[Ibbygirl]

Let the insults begin!

 

"your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"

 

(highfives Ibby)

 

LOL How perfect, I just posted a Monty Python skit! lol

[justamouse]

Interesting to see Outliers mentioned. The idea of 10,000 hours (I think that's the time frame in the book?) being necessary to become excellent at something flitted through my head as I read about the long practice hours mentioned in the article.

 

 

I thought the same. *g* But the vehicle as to how to get the 10k hours, that's the crux of the biscuit.

[love2read]

We have friends who are asian and their kids shared this with ours. It's a video of two Chinese brothers imitating their parents when looking over the report card. Funny and very true based on what I have seen

 

[laughing lioness]

Excellent question...and this has the possibility of spinning wildly off topic but I believe their commitment to family, community, ancestors and the whole saving face thing, honoring your elders, etc. makes it supremely difficult to evangelize in an asian nation using an apologetics approach and helps explain why the charasmatic denominations are wildly successful here.

 

OK, steering back onto the road... :D

 

This thread has been a family discussion for a couple of days ;) and my oldest dd was sharing how pentacostalism is so prevelant, along with the prosperity gospel among some of the house church movements in China.

[justamouse]

This thread has been a family discussion for a couple of days ;) and my oldest dd was sharing how pentacostalism is so prevelant, along with the prosperity gospel among some of the house church movements in China.

 

Isn't that a natural reaction to being so emotionally restricted? I would think the pendulum would swing that way.

[LibraryLover]

You just aren't trying hard enough to remember! Try harder! :D

 

 

You've hurt me dearly. But.

 

It's just a flesh wound

[LibraryLover]

[

[justamouse]

*snort*

[Ibbygirl]

You've hurt me dearly. But.

 

It's just a flesh wound

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: Bite her legs off! :D hehe

[LibraryLover]

We have friends who are asian and their kids shared this with ours. It's a video of two Chinese brothers imitating their parents when looking over the report card. Funny and very true based on what I have seen

 

 

 

I posted kevin video a zillion pages back. lol

[Ibbygirl]

We have friends who are asian and their kids shared this with ours. It's a video of two Chinese brothers imitating their parents when looking over the report card. Funny and very true based on what I have seen

 

 

The comments under the video were so funny. This one cracked me up...

 

"Asian parents:

 

*Your report card comes home*

 

YOU GOT C?!

 

WHY YOU GET C?!

 

YOU NO C-SIAN,

 

YOU NO B-SIAN,

 

YOU A-SIAN!"

[Heather in Neverland]

One more tiny detour?? Pretty please with a cherry on top? It's just that this is one of my favorite skits ever and I look for any excuse to watch it again.

 

Apparently the "Chinese Method" works for some Westerners too. :D:tongue_smilie:

 

ETA this is purely tongue in cheek and intended for laughs only. :)

 

Now THAT is funny!!!!!!

[Ibbygirl]

Now THAT is funny!!!!!!

 

Yeah, Monty Python rule! Glad you enjoyed it. :)

[Heather in Neverland]

Isn't that a natural reaction to being so emotionally restricted? I would think the pendulum would swing that way.

 

Exactly and because an appeal to them through a logic or apologetics-based manner will earn you nothing. It has to be "miraculous" and there must be LOTS of "prosperity" attached to the religion in order for them to have the courage to turn their back on their ancestors. If they can show that it is a "properous" thing to be a christian there is more chance of relatives accepting it.

 

And now I have officially fallen far off course. Where is my 4-wheel-drive? :D