s/o administrators' salaries: How much should teachers be paid?

[jld]

What should a teacher pay scale look like? What should an administrator pay scale look like? If you could give reasons, that would be helpful in understanding your pov.

[Hannah C.]

Teacher salaries vary, I believe, partly depending on whether the state is a union or non-union state. I live in a non-union state. A beginning teacher salary, first year no experience, here is about $45k -- I live in a major metropolitan area. The minimum salary allowed by the state is something along the lines of $27k, which is closer to what a teacher would probably get in a more rural area, from what I've been given to understand in teacher preparation classes. (I started the teacher certification program at my college and may or may not finish it at a later time.)

 

I honestly don't have an idea of what teachers "should" be paid, because I don't have a good handle on what a "good" salary is or should be. I do want to say, though, that teachers do a *lot* of work, including a lot of stuff that happens outside "official" work hours. So they deserve to be paid well, whatever that means -- and what it means will vary from place to place.

[jld]

Teacher salaries vary, I believe, partly depending on whether the state is a union or non-union state. I live in a non-union state. A beginning teacher salary, first year no experience, here is about $45k -- I live in a major metropolitan area. The minimum salary allowed by the state is something along the lines of $27k, which is closer to what a teacher would probably get in a more rural area, from what I've been given to understand in teacher preparation classes. (I started the teacher certification program at my college and may or may not finish it at a later time.)

 

I honestly don't have an idea of what teachers "should" be paid, because I don't have a good handle on what a "good" salary is or should be. I do want to say, though, that teachers do a *lot* of work, including a lot of stuff that happens outside "official" work hours. So they deserve to be paid well, whatever that means -- and what it means will vary from place to place.

 

Teaching is a ton of work, Hannah. I was exhausted long before Friday when I was working. And it's thankless, and stressful.

 

I don't have a lot of sympathy for administrators, though I don't want to say that on the other thread, lol. My husband runs a factory in India (talk about stress!) and he doesn't make $248k a year, and if he didn't bring results, he probably wouldn't even have his job! I really don't think an administrator should make more than twice what the highest paid teacher makes, if that. And I do think they should lead by example; my dh certainly does!

 

I guess the problem is that it's hard to judge teacher effectiveness, and the unions do protect everyone, good or bad. I don't really know how I feel about unions. There isn't a union protecting my dh, that's for sure. But he is French, and works for a French company, so a lot of social protection is just automatically in his job, for which I'm grateful. I think Americans get ripped off in so many ways, but they accept it, so what can you really do?

[fhjmom]

I am a former high school teacher. Teachers just graduating tend to make a pretty decent salary compared to other recent grads with a 4-year degree. I think the disparity comes when there is really not a *huge* difference in the salary of a "novice" teacher and that of a master teacher that has been teaching for 20+ years. If you look at those same graduates down the line, the other professions offer much more opportunity for salary increases. It is not uncommon for teachers burn out after 7-10 years then go into more lucrative professions where they can attain a much higher salary than if they stayed in the classroom.

 

My personal opinion is to find a way to reward really good master teachers to stay in the classroom instead of the only alternative for them to really make the "good money" is to either pursue administrative positions or leave education.

 

It was no secret here that districts will more often than non hire a fresh-out-of-college teacher over a teacher with many years experience because the teacher with no experience costs less. :P

 

There is no easy answer though because it is hard to say what makes a master teacher. I don't really agree with automatic pay raises based on "time served", but I also strongly disagree with teacher salaries being tied to student performance (there is just too many other factors that affect student performance that a teacher has absolutely no control over).

[jvenice]

I am assuming you are talking about a private school. When I was an administrator in a private school, we paid our teachers according to the local public school scale commensurate with their years of service and education. As far as administrators in private school, they tend to be underpaid. If the school is accredited, many accrediting bodies require that the Head Master or Principal (if there is no HM) must be the highest paid on the payroll.

For the most part, teachers are simply underpaid and administrators work more hours than teachers (most are teachers who have truly wanted to make a difference for other teachers by taking on an administrative role)--at least that was my experience.

 

I hope this helps.

Edited December 22, 2010 by jvenice

[sbgrace]

Ideally, education would be a position with respect and pay that draws the best. Clearly we can't afford that however.

 

I've been out of teaching since my boys were born so I don't have a handle on current salaries. I always felt I was paid adequately though. At every point I earned more than my CPA husband though he works for the state in public accounting. Private accounting would pay much more. We are in a very rural area. No security guards.

 

Teaching is a tough job in many ways with lots of "overtime" though I think most who do it are "born teachers" and wouldn't do anything else. There is a lot broken in education but by and large I don't think the individual teachers are the broken parts. They are doing the best they can in a broken system.

[Mama Geek]

i would say that they should be paid what a private school teacher in their area is paid. For however reliable about.com is, private school teachers make on average $10000-$15000 less than public school teachers. I am sure the benefits are scaled back as well.

[Renee in NC]

A fresh out of college teacher makes about $30K here (so $36K equivalent, since they work 196 days a year.) That really isn't bad, considering the area! In comparison, a just out of school accountant would make $27K (anybody wonder why I am leaving here?!?!?!) Salaries are just really, really low here without the benefit of a low cost of living.:glare:

 

The pay doesn't get much better as you go up, though. Pay is also not based on merit as in most other jobs - there really isn't an incentive to go above and beyond, is there?

 

I couldn't be a teacher. I don't like other people's kids.:tongue_smilie: I don't like teaching, either. And there is no way I would do what they do for the money they do it for, even if I did.

[Mama Geek]

A fresh out of college teacher makes about $30K here (so $36K equivalent, since they work 196 days a year.) That really isn't bad, considering the area! In comparison, a just out of school accountant would make $27K (anybody wonder why I am leaving here?!?!?!) Salaries are just really, really low here without the benefit of a low cost of living.:glare:

 

The pay doesn't get much better as you go up, though. Pay is also not based on merit as in most other jobs - there really isn't an incentive to go above and beyond, is there?

 

I couldn't be a teacher. I don't like other people's kids.:tongue_smilie: I don't like teaching, either. And there is no way I would do what they do for the money they do it for, even if I did.

 

Florida and (if I remember right that you are in Daytona) Daytona Beach are pretty low cost of living areas in comparison to a lot of the country. You could buy my $300000 house in VA for about 100000 in that area. If my house would sell, we would be buying a house in that area of Florida. Gas is cheaper, food is cheaper and can be found fresh. Taxes are cheaper. I am sure there are places that have a lower cost of living, but I wouldn't consider Daytona a high cost of living area.

 

If you are in Ft Lauderdale or Miami then this post doesn't apply.

[LisaKinVA]

Here in our area, a starting teacher (just out of college) should probably make around $30,000/yr.

 

But, I will also say, I think our state has a ridculous amount of required "extras." Yes, I want our teachers to continue to learn, and improve -- but every friend I have that teaches has trouble fitting in vacations due to all of the symposiums, continued ed, etc. they *must* attend. The teachers I know may get a "break" from teaching... but they pretty much "work" all. summer. long. However, they also only get "paid" during the school year. They have routinely been cutting "in-service" days. This past year, the "official" back to school day was Monday (the first day they would actually get paid), and the Back to School night was Tuesday. They expected the teacher's would show up the week before, without pay, on their own time, to get the classrooms ready for Back to School night.

 

Great teachers don't treat their position as a 9-5 job. They bring work home, they work on weekends... they don't simply "punch a clock."

 

I think that most of the mandated state testing is pathetic, and would rather see some sort of adaptive test (like the computer-based scantron), which measures pupil knowledge in core areas at the beginning of the year... and then again at the end of the year.

 

It's such a quagmire, I don't know where I would start... but definitely need to change the advancement from teacher to administrator. When my dh went to high school, he had a Principal and a VP. Today, in the same high school... that has fewer students than when DH attended, they have a Principal and THREE VPs. Of course, that state had something like 3 administrators for every teacher...:tongue_smilie:

[Jamee]

Ideally, education would be a position with respect and pay that draws the best. Clearly we can't afford that however.

 

 

Teaching is a tough job in many ways with lots of "overtime" though I think most who do it are "born teachers" and wouldn't do anything else. There is a lot broken in education but by and large I don't think the individual teachers are the broken parts. They are doing the best they can in a broken system.

 

 

:iagree:It would be nice if teaching was given more "respect." My Turkish students many years ago, said that in Turkey, teaching is the highest profession one can have. Since without teachers, there'd be no one else. That makes a lot of sense. DH is a public school teacher and we just wish teachers were paid enough to support a family and put something away from savings, not have to work second jobs. If we went back to the states, I seriously doubt DH would be still be in the profession which is a real shame since he's good at it and loves to teach. He just didn't make enough to support us and pay the bills.

[Renee in NC]

Florida and (if I remember right that you are in Daytona) Daytona Beach are pretty low cost of living areas in comparison to a lot of the country. You could buy my $300000 house in VA for about 100000 in that area. If my house would sell, we would be buying a house in that area of Florida. Gas is cheaper, food is cheaper and can be found fresh. Taxes are cheaper. I am sure there are places that have a lower cost of living, but I wouldn't consider Daytona a high cost of living area.

 

If you are in Ft Lauderdale or Miami then this post doesn't apply.

 

It isn't a high cost of living area, but if you take the cost of living and compare it to average salaries, you would understand where I am coming from. Lots of people come from the NE because they can sell their houses there and buy a house here for cash (or close to cash.) The taxes and expenses are lower than there, sure. If your dh makes a decent salary and is willing to commute to Orlando, then this area might be great for you.

Edited December 22, 2010 by Renee in FL

[angela in ohio]

I think the teachers' and administrators' unions should be dissolved, and teachers and administrators should be paid individually based on performance. Bad teachers should be paid little and good teachers should be paid a comparable salary to what they could make in the private sector. Then the bad teachers would leave and the good teachers could do their jobs without a lot of rules and regulations designed (necessarily) to protect students from bad teachers.

 

My dh is an "upper level administrator." I wish he could negotiate his own salaary, instead of being tied to the union scale. He would do much better, because he is a smart hard worker. I wished the same thing when he was a teacher; there is no incentive to work hard or be an effective teacher, just to "put in the years." The ones who are good are good because they love the job, but they shouldn't have to get burned out working with bad teachers who make the same pay.

Edited December 22, 2010 by angela in ohio

[Renee in NC]

NM

Edited December 22, 2010 by Renee in FL

[DawnM]

Teachers should be paid a wage to support their families. This will vary by area.

 

But I know that all of that is subjective. What some consider a good wage, others will feel is not enough.

 

The benefits package is CRITICAL though.

 

I worked for 16+ years teaching high school and then 4 of those were spent as a high school counselor. I felt I got a decent wage for that. I also got full benefits included for the entire family. Retirement was decent as well. This was in CA.

 

Here in NC, I could NOT support my family well or at all, even with the experience I have. They do not provide adequate benefits (retirement or health insurance) and it would have to come out of pocket, which is HUGE in my opinion. My salary here would be about 40% of my CA salary.

[DawnM]

Florida is horrible to their teachers, at least from the things I have read. They also front load the pay to draw in teachers, but don't compensate veteran teachers at all.

 

Does it include health benefits for the entire family? If not, take about $7K or more out of that $30K. Then you pay about $7K or so in taxes.

 

$16K left to live on......definitely not enough to feed and house a family.

 

Dawn

 

A fresh out of college teacher makes about $30K here (so $36K equivalent, since they work 196 days a year.) That really isn't bad, considering the area! In comparison, a just out of school accountant would make $27K (anybody wonder why I am leaving here?!?!?!) Salaries are just really, really low here without the benefit of a low cost of living.:glare:

 

The pay doesn't get much better as you go up, though. Pay is also not based on merit as in most other jobs - there really isn't an incentive to go above and beyond, is there?

 

I couldn't be a teacher. I don't like other people's kids.:tongue_smilie: I don't like teaching, either. And there is no way I would do what they do for the money they do it for, even if I did.

[DawnM]

He would not necessarily do better. What if they decided that they would cap out at the same place anyway? What if the school board got some goon in there who had a beef with your DH and decided to try to drop his reputation?

 

And how do you rate teachers? WHO rates teachers?

 

Test scores are only part of the puzzle, never mind HOW do you rate special education, elective class teachers, PE teachers, ESL teachers, and the list goes on.

 

Dawn

 

I think the teachers' and administrators' unions should be dissolved, and teachers and administrators should be paid individually based on performance. Bad teachers should be paid little and good teachers should be paid a comparable salary to what they could make in the private sector. Then the bad teachers would leave and the good teachers could do their jobs without a lot of rules and regulations designed (necessarily) to protect students from bad teachers.

 

My dh is an "upper level administrator." I wish he could negotiate his own salaary, instead of being tied to the union scale. He would do much better, because he is a smart hard worker. I wished the same thing when he was a teacher; there is no incentive to work hard or be an effective teacher, just to "put in the years."

[DawnM]

It is too bad. I find teaching to be a good 2nd income for families, but it can rarely be the primary income. If something happened to DH and I had to go back to teaching or counseling, it would be a tough transition financially.

 

Dawn

 

 

:iagree:It would be nice if teaching was given more "respect." My Turkish students many years ago, said that in Turkey, teaching is the highest profession one can have. Since without teachers, there'd be no one else. That makes a lot of sense. DH is a public school teacher and we just wish teachers were paid enough to support a family and put something away from savings, not have to work second jobs. If we went back to the states, I seriously doubt DH would be still be in the profession which is a real shame since he's good at it and loves to teach. He just didn't make enough to support us and pay the bills.

[jld]

I think the teachers' and administrators' unions should be dissolved

 

Maybe your state is taking steps toward this . . .

 

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2010/12/21/collective-bargaining-is-target-of-next-ohio-senate.html?sid=101

[Karen in CO]

I think teachers should be paid a competitive wage so that the profession attracts the best and brightest, not just people who are "called" to teaching.

 

My brother and I went to the same college, have the same degree and make shockingly different salaries. He is a teacher, and I work for a "major corporation." If teaching paid more, we would have a better quality of teachers and perhaps even be a competitive field. I also think they should get merit pay (bonuses). When my company is doing well and I perform well, I get a bonus. Why not reward teachers that are doing a good job. It must be disheartening to never get that kind of reward no matter how hard you work.

 

I think it would help improve the education system.

[jld]

:iagree:It would be nice if teaching was given more "respect." My Turkish students many years ago, said that in Turkey, teaching is the highest profession one can have.

 

 

http://www.annenberginstitute.org/vue/summer09/Darling.php

 

The above talks about how teachers in Finland are respected and are given a rather free hand in how and maybe even what they teach (not quite sure about the what). There is a big emphasis in Finland, it seems, on nurturing each individual student. There is not a big emphasis on testing.

 

I've been trying to get together with my Finnish neighbor to talk about the recent PISA scores, and education in her country. I'll keep trying to catch her at home . . .

[jld]

I think teachers should be paid a competitive wage so that the profession attracts the best and brightest, not just people who are "called" to teaching.

 

My brother and I went to the same college, have the same degree and make shockingly different salaries. He is a teacher, and I work for a "major corporation." If teaching paid more, we would have a better quality of teachers and perhaps even be a competitive field. I also think they should get merit pay (bonuses). When my company is doing well and I perform well, I get a bonus. Why not reward teachers that are doing a good job. It must be disheartening to never get that kind of reward no matter how hard you work.

 

I think it would help improve the education system.

 

When I first met my dh, we exchanged salary info, and honestly, I was offended to hear how much more he made than I did. I thought I was doing important work, too, teaching kids Spanish! He didn't disagree, and told me that it's not the work itself that sets the pay, but the supply of people to do it.

 

You know, he has never belittled my contribution to our life as a wife and mother in any way. He respects mothers tremendously, even if society doesn't, and is so grateful I am willing to be home and homeschool the kids.

[angela in ohio]

He would not necessarily do better. What if they decided that they would cap out at the same place anyway? What if the school board got some goon in there who had a beef with your DH and decided to try to drop his reputation?

 

And how do you rate teachers? WHO rates teachers?

 

Test scores are only part of the puzzle, never mind HOW do you rate special education, elective class teachers, PE teachers, ESL teachers, and the list goes on.

 

Dawn

 

Even with the risks, it would still be better than the current system.

 

As far as evaluating teachers: Their bosses would evaluate them, just like in the private sector. The administrators know who the good teachers are, and each teacher already gets an evaulation of their performace, not based on student performance but on their competence at their job. The unions want everyone to think that you'd have to use test scores and that would be unfair. But in many professions, employees are evaulated and their pay based on that, and it works out just fine.

[DawnM]

Well, if they would really base it on admin performance reviews I would be much more on board with that. My reviews were always high. Of course, I worked in an a VERY inner city school and I was considered an excellent teacher pretty much because I showed up to work on time, managed my classroom well, didn't send out kids, and didn't rock the boat or complain! :D

 

They did care what the kids were learning, but it was quite secondary to classroom management. I guess noone learns in a bad classroom management classroom though.

 

Dawn

 

Even with the risks, it would still be better than the current system.

 

As far as evaluating teachers: Their bosses would evaluate them, just like in the private sector. The administrators know who the good teachers are, and each teacher already gets an evaulation of their performace, not based on student performance but on their competence at their job. The unions want everyone to think that you'd have to use test scores and that would be unfair. But in many professions, employees are evaulated and their pay based on that, and it works out just fine.

[jld]

I live in NY as well and previously I lived in CT. Teachers are generally well paid in both states. I really don't think they can complain that hard about it.

 

I have a friend in Mass who teaches high school math. She is paid around 80K, yet she complains it is not enough and thinks she should make far more. I don't know if I agree. My husband doesn't make that (with a higher level of education) and he doesn't get several weeks off a year. On the other hand she does live in a very expensive area. So I guess that amount of money doesn't go so far.

 

It's hard to compare, isn't it? It's not like people don't value teachers, or administrators, for that matter, but the reality is that tax revenues are down, and we will have to make some hard choices. I just hope we all feel good about the choices that we end up making.

[jld]

I only know that NY spends more per student than just about any other state and they absolutely don't have the results to show for it. How much more money can they ask for? Ya know?

 

I don't say that is the fault of teachers. I think even a so so teacher could probably do the job with the right materials, attitude, and support. Part of the problem could be the overall attitude towards education and academics. A lot of people just don't value it much. Maybe it isn't even realistic to think we are going to make everyone value it either.

 

I hear you. I'm from a high tax state, too. And we have had how many superintendents over the course of the nearly two decades we have lived/owned property in our city in America! And despite all the money spent, and all the new programs tried, and the supposedly great new administrators we've hired, things always seem . . . the same.

 

I'm really attracted to the idea of cutting admin money and putting it into more teachers, but I doubt that would ever happen. And really, how much can teachers do when, like you've said, education isn't supported at home? It's really the parents' job to educate the kids, or make them educable (shoot, is that even a word?:lol:). But society suffers when kids aren't educated, so you've got to have a kid safety net, and the schools are it.

 

What to do, what to do?

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I realize the discussion centers on elementary through high school ed but here's an example from my life.

 

I teach as an adjunct for the local community college. A master's degree is required for my position. I am paid by the credit hour (usually 3) and not by student count. My classes typically have 28-32 students. I am required to have 3 hours of office time a week per course. Add in class time, prep time, and grading time (I assign papers, homework assignments, etc) I can spend anywhere from 15-20 hours per week per course.

When my classes are full and my work load is heavier, requiring more hours, I make less than $10 an hour. If I have fewer students and therefore put in fewer hours I can make $13 an hour.

 

I make less than many of my students.

 

I know a number of adjuncts who try to decrease their work load by using only multiple choice scantron tests, do not assign any papers or homework and cut short their office hours (if students don't stop by in the first hour they leave).

 

Full time instructors at the CC make about $35,000-$40,000 a year.

 

Edited to add: Adjuncts can only teach 3 courses per term. I know adjuncts who are working at two or three different community colleges in an effort to make a decent living. One lady, who shares an office with me, works 80+ hours a week, teaching 8 classes at three different schools.

Edited December 22, 2010 by The Dragon Academy

[Unicorn.]

Current teacher salaries are posted on the internet on sites like seethroughNY.com

 

In my area, a teacher 15 years on the job makes app $85K with no add'l responsibilities than on day 1. By contract they work less than 8 hrs per day. This is far better than any other job with similar educational skills and responsibility in the area even with Fortune 50 companies.

 

It's a big country though, so compensation varies greatly as does a teacher's job responsibilities.

 

I guarantee those teachers have more responsibilities than what you "see" listed. I promise you they work extra days that aren't listed for public view, and NO teacher puts in ONLY an 8 hour day. There is a lot of work that isn't "seen" by the public eye, or put into writing.

[pqr]

I guarantee those teachers have more responsibilities than what you "see" listed. I promise you they work extra days that aren't listed for public view, and NO teacher puts in ONLY an 8 hour day. There is a lot of work that isn't "seen" by the public eye, or put into writing.

 

 

....but they do have a great deal of time off. Further in some districts they do work less than 8 hrs a day. Ask yourself this, if the contract stipulates 8 hrs or less per day, do you think the union would stand by and see them work more? Honestly now can you see a union doing this?

 

Teacher pay should be directly tied to performance. The fact is that if a teacher is not performing then they are getting paid far too much.

[Hannah C.]

....but they do have a great deal of time off. Further in some districts they do work less than 8 hrs a day. Ask yourself this, if the contract stipulates 8 hrs or less per day, do you think the union would stand by and see them work more? Honestly now can you see a union doing this?

 

Teacher pay should be directly tied to performance. The fact is that if a teacher is not performing then they are getting paid far too much.

 

I do not live in a union state, but the teachers I have observed and known do *not* have a great deal of time off. State law requires that all teachers have at least one 50-minute conference period every day. That conference period is not "time off." And any teacher will be taking papers and other student work home to grade, and grading it at home, "off the clock."

 

My problem with teacher pay being directly tied to performance is that student performance is measured by standardized tests. And there are so, so many mitigating circumstances when it comes to students and tests. In the area where I live, the "best" schools on paper are the ones in the richest areas of town. The "okay" schools are in the areas of town with a large Hispanic population, with a large poor population, with a large other-minority population, etc. The rich school is already being rewarded for its good performance by its high rating, but that school has no special ed students to speak of, no disadvantaged students at all. If the schools were being rewarded based on "performance" then the rich school would receive more money, when the okay schools could benefit from that money much more. Not only teachers, but entire schools would be judged on performance, and in some cases this already happens.

 

The way progress is measured needs work. The problem is, how do you change the system? What we have needs work, definitely, but trying to come up with something else that would be better is just as difficult. And often what people think would work better to evaluate teachers are methods that would cost a lot more to put into practice, because they don't rely on a test, they rely on a lot of observation, for example...

Edited December 22, 2010 by Hannah C.

[pqr]

I do not live in a union state, but the teachers I have observed and known do *not* have a great deal of time off. State law requires that all teachers have at least one 50-minute conference period every day. That conference period is not "time off." And any teacher will be taking papers and other student work home to grade, and grading it at home, "off the clock."

 

.

 

Most states still have Summer vacation, Christamas vacation and Spring break. While some teachers work through Spring break the other vacations equal a great deal of time off. I know very few people who get 2 months off every year, other than teachers.

[DawnM]

I have taught adult school at a community college. The pay was a little better than you quoted, but no benefits, no perks, etc....but I was not adjunct.

 

Here I have been offered a position at the community college teaching ESL part time (I have an MA in TESOL). I turned it down. The pay is low and I have young children at home and cannot pay a babysitter and actually make it worth my while!

 

Dawn

 

I realize the discussion centers on elementary through high school ed but here's an example from my life.

 

I teach as an adjunct for the local community college. A master's degree is required for my position. I am paid by the credit hour (usually 3) and not by student count. My classes typically have 28-32 students. I am required to have 3 hours of office time a week per course. Add in class time, prep time, and grading time (I assign papers, homework assignments, etc) I can spend anywhere from 15-20 hours per week per course.

When my classes are full and my work load is heavier, requiring more hours, I make less than $10 an hour. If I have fewer students and therefore put in fewer hours I can make $13 an hour.

 

I make less than many of my students.

 

I know a number of adjuncts who try to decrease their work load by using only multiple choice scantron tests, do not assign any papers or homework and cut short their office hours (if students don't stop by in the first hour they leave).

 

Full time instructors at the CC make about $35,000-$40,000 a year.

 

Edited to add: Adjuncts can only teach 3 courses per term. I know adjuncts who are working at two or three different community colleges in an effort to make a decent living. One lady, who shares an office with me, works 80+ hours a week, teaching 8 classes at three different schools.

[Hannah C.]

Most states still have Summer vacation, Christamas vacation and Spring break. While some teachers work through Spring break the other vacations equal a great deal of time off. I know very few people who get 2 months off every year, other than teachers.

 

The teachers I know work through Christmas and spring break, for sure. Christmas break is 2 weeks and spring break is one week. Summer break varies on how much teachers work. Some teachers teach summer school. Others coach Academic Decathlon teams, or do other school-related things. All of them will be preparing. And none of them get paid for those two months, as far as I know -- I believe in TX teachers can choose to have their salary spread out over the year so it seems like they're getting paid for those months, but they aren't. They get paid a salary and it's how they choose to have it distributed out. I have a relative who teaches Head Start in CA and for some odd reason she has to go on unemployment every summer -- she's not getting paid by Head Start for those two months either.

[pqr]

My problem with teacher pay being directly tied to performance is that student performance is measured by standardized tests. And there are so, so many mitigating circumstances when it comes to students and tests. In the area where I live, the "best" schools on paper are the ones in the richest areas of town. The "okay" schools are in the areas of town with a large Hispanic population, with a large poor population, with a large other-minority population, etc. The rich school is already being rewarded for its good performance by its high rating, but that school has no special ed students to speak of, no disadvantaged students at all. If the schools were being rewarded based on "performance" then the rich school would receive more money, when the okay schools could benefit from that money much more. Not only teachers, but entire schools would be judged on performance, and in some cases this already happens.

 

The way progress is measured needs work. The problem is, how do you change the system? What we have needs work, definitely, but trying to come up with something else that would be better is just as difficult. And often what people think would work better to evaluate teachers are methods that would cost a lot more to put into practice, because they don't rely on a test, they rely on a lot of observation, for example...

 

 

One can debate performance issues in many ways, and make a good argument. How about this one..teacher testing. I have had teachers who simply did not know their subject. Why do the unions fight so hard against this, unless it is because they know full well that there are many sub-par teachers out there.

[Mama Geek]

I agree that teacher pay should be paid directly to performance. This probably won't happen unless the teacher's union is dissolved.

 

People will never be satisfied with what they are paid and a lot of people will always spend more than they make no matter how much they make.

 

I looked up teachers salaries where I own my house in VA. They make an average of close to $55,000. After 10 years of working in engineering (this was the major engineering employer in the area) in that area I was only making $60,000 and starting salaries for engineers is about $43,000. I didn't have near the benefits or the time off that teachers get.

 

Back to private schools, they get much less per student, the teachers are paid less and the kids come out of the schools being educated. If I can send a kid to a private tutoring center like Sylvan for a few months and they can get caught up a grade level or 2, then how come the public schools can't do this?

 

I have known some good teachers and I have known some horrible teachers. The schools being run by the state or federal governments and the unions aren't working.

 

I will vote no on any issue having to do with funding schools or teachers. Throwing money at these aren't going to fix the problems.

[Hannah C.]

One can debate performance issues in many ways, and make a good argument. How about this one..teacher testing. I have had teachers who simply did not know their subject. Why do the unions fight so hard against this, unless it is because they know full well that there are many sub-par teachers out there.

 

This is the problem with all the performance issues, and standardized testing for students, and trying to measure "progress" and "whether things are getting done" and all of that. I personally believe that standardized testing has the potential to completely stifle good teaching. I also have seen standardized test results and I've had to take standardized tests. The fact that anyone fails the TAKS test is sad and wrong. No one should be failing that test...but people do. :confused:

 

I don't know why unions would fight teacher testing..but what kind of testing are you referring to? The teacher testing I will have to do as part of the certification process consists of two multiple choice tests -- one on my content area and one on "pedagogy and professional responsibilities." Both tests are completely multiple-choice, and I think they're both around 80 questions. These tests should weed out those people who don't have a clue. I haven't taken the tests yet, but I don't think they're going to ensure that anyone really *knows* their subject. Any teacher will still have to do research and get prepared before teaching a class in order to fully know their subject. I think this kind of testing is considered normal at this point. Now, if you're talking about tests that teachers have to take periodically to make sure they still know their subject, that might be overkill. Then again, as far as I know teachers have to complete some type of continuing education over a period of time in order to remain certified, and this could include taking more tests. I'm sure it varies from state to state though.

[pqr]

 

People will never be satisfied with what they are paid and a lot of people will always spend more than they make no matter how much they make.

 

I looked up teachers salaries where I own my house in VA. They make an average of close to $55,000. After 10 years of working in engineering (this was the major engineering employer in the area) in that area I was only making $60,000 and starting salaries for engineers is about $43,000. I didn't have near the benefits or the time off that teachers get.

 

.....

 

I will vote no on any issue having to do with funding schools or teachers. Throwing money at these aren't going to fix the problems.

 

Exactly.

[pqr]

I don't know why unions would fight teacher testing..but what kind of testing are you referring to? The teacher testing I will have to do as part of the certification process consists of two multiple choice tests -- one on my content area and one on "pedagogy and professional responsibilities." Both tests are completely multiple-choice, and I think they're both around 80 questions. These tests should weed out those people who don't have a clue. I haven't taken the tests yet, but I don't think they're going to ensure that anyone really *knows* their subject. Any teacher will still have to do research and get prepared before teaching a class in order to fully know their subject. I think this kind of testing is considered normal at this point. Now, if you're talking about tests that teachers have to take periodically to make sure they still know their subject, that might be overkill. Then again, as far as I know teachers have to complete some type of continuing education over a period of time in order to remain certified, and this could include taking more tests. I'm sure it varies from state to state though.

 

 

I am talking about periodic testing to ensure that they know their subject. A pilot goes through an annual flight check to ensure that he can fly and deal with emergencies. Why should a teacher not have an annual test to ensure that they still know their subject? Where is the overkill?

 

I have had teachers who do not know their subject, I have acquaintances who are teachers and are, frankly, "dumb as rocks." An old report card that I received has spelling errors! Teachers are a large part of the problem. When the teachers admit this and start to get rid of the chaff then I may listen to their complaints, currently the teacher's main job seems to be the same as the politician's, "come back next year".

[Snickerdoodle]

I agree that teacher pay should be paid directly to performance.

 

 

Do the teachers get to choose the curriculum and materials they are using?

 

I'm wary of tying teacher pay to performance if they don't have any latitude in the classroom to shake things up that are not working.

[Hannah C.]

I am talking about periodic testing to ensure that they know their subject. A pilot goes through an annual flight check to ensure that he can fly and deal with emergencies. Why should a teacher not have an annual test to ensure that they still know their subject? Where is the overkill?

 

I have had teachers who do not know their subject, I have acquaintances who are teachers and are, frankly, "dumb as rocks." An old report card that I received has spelling errors! Teachers are a large part of the problem. When the teachers admit this and start to get rid of the chaff then I may listen to their complaints, currently the teacher's main job seems to be the same as the politician's, "come back next year".

 

It seems to me like you have known quite a few bad teachers, and I have known mostly good teachers and some wonderful teachers.

 

I can see the logic behind an annual test making sure a teacher still knows their subject. Again, though, I think any test that would end up being given would be one which would only weed out those people who were just truly bad. It won't weed out the mediocre teachers. It won't weed out the teachers who know their subject backwards and forwards but can't teach. So other methods of evaluation would be needed. Do you think that such an annual test would have weeded out the bad teachers you knew?

 

I think, also, this varies from state to state. Most of the stories I've heard or read about in the news about teachers being impossible to fire are from states with unions. Texas is a right to work state. I believe the longest contract a teacher actually gets is two years, and after that two years the school district can choose to renew the contract or not. So my guess is that it's much easier to fire a teacher here than in a union state.

[Hannah C.]

Do the teachers get to choose the curriculum and materials they are using?

 

I'm wary of tying teacher pay to performance if they don't have any latitude in the classroom to shake things up that are not working.

 

In Texas, at least, the state has a list of approved curricula and the school districts pick from that. The teacher can theoretically pick anything from that approved by the state list, but whether or not the district will buy the curricula is another question. The teachers don't have very much latitude.

[DawnM]

I have a couple of questions about this.

 

I certainly don't mind testing, and most teachers do pass several tests to become certified, however, I don't think that is what you are referring to.

 

Are you talking about yearly testing? Are you talking about content area only?

 

The other question has to do with high need areas. Unfortunately, in many areas, particularly inner city areas, there just aren't enough teachers for specific content instruction. Math and Science come to mind as well as Special Ed and ESL. Often schools are given special permission to allow someone NOT of that content area to teach if they have a certain number of college credit hours in the field because there is just noone else to do it.

 

Also, I KNOW that many feel bad teachers should be fired. I am not disagreeing, really, so don't take this as a disagreement.....but do you think there will be enough teachers left and/or replacements if we got rid of say 25%-35% of the teaching staff. I may be overestimating slacking teachers, but I don't think I am.....(although they may straiten up if they know termination is coming!)

 

Dawn

 

One can debate performance issues in many ways, and make a good argument. How about this one..teacher testing. I have had teachers who simply did not know their subject. Why do the unions fight so hard against this, unless it is because they know full well that there are many sub-par teachers out there.

[pqr]

I have a couple of questions about this.

 

I certainly don't mind testing, and most teachers do pass several tests to become certified, however, I don't think that is what you are referring to.

 

Are you talking about yearly testing? Are you talking about content area only?

 

The other question has to do with high need areas. Unfortunately, in many areas, particularly inner city areas, there just aren't enough teachers for specific content instruction. Math and Science come to mind as well as Special Ed and ESL. Often schools are given special permission to allow someone NOT of that content area to teach if they have a certain number of college credit hours in the field because there is just noone else to do it.

 

Also, I KNOW that many feel bad teachers should be fired. I am not disagreeing, really, so don't take this as a disagreement.....but do you think there will be enough teachers left and/or replacements if we got rid of say 25%-35% of the teaching staff. I may be overestimating slacking teachers, but I don't think I am.....(although they may straiten up if they know termination is coming!)

 

Dawn

 

Friends in CT sent me this link.

 

http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_update_02-11-10_5HHDMPV_v52.398afed.html

 

apparently the teachers were not fired, but when it looked like they would be there were roughly 10 applicants for every position that would have become vacant. With 10% percent unemployment in our nation I suspect that replacement teachers could be found, and the truth be told they would be hard pressed to perform in a manner any worse than the current stock of teachers, I suspect that they would be far better. In much of our ps school system there remains only one direction to go and that is up.

[Mama Geek]

When I first got married my dh looked for a teaching job for either math or science. He had a BA in Physics at the time and could not find a job in his field. He applied to several school districts that were supposedly screaming for teachers. They wouldn't even talk to him. I am sure that he knew more about physics, calculus, chemistry, and algebra than the majority of the ps teachers teaching those subjects.

 

I think good teachers could be found if the bad ones were fired and the unions didn't have any input.

[Joker]

Florida is horrible to their teachers, at least from the things I have read. They also front load the pay to draw in teachers, but don't compensate veteran teachers at all.

 

Does it include health benefits for the entire family? If not, take about $7K or more out of that $30K. Then you pay about $7K or so in taxes.

 

$16K left to live on......definitely not enough to feed and house a family.

 

Dawn

 

I'm in FL as well and in our district they also make teachers pay for before and afterschool care. They just take it out of their paychecks. The kids aren't allowed to be in the classroom before and after so the teachers have no choice. In TX my siblings are teachers and they can keep their kids in the room with them before and after class.

[DawnM]

In NC this is true as well. They do give 50% discount to teachers who work in the same district.

 

I wouldn't have been able to have my kids come to my class anyway as I taught high school and they are in the elem. school (or were.)

 

In CA after school care was FREE!

 

Dawn

 

I'm in FL as well and in our district they also make teachers pay for before and afterschool care. They just take it out of their paychecks. The kids aren't allowed to be in the classroom before and after so the teachers have no choice. In TX my siblings are teachers and they can keep their kids in the room with them before and after class.

[DawnM]

Yes, but that is a relatively small group, firing 75 is nothing really when you look at districts like NY and LA, where masses and masses would face the chopping block if they really wanted to enforce things.

 

My guess is that it would never come to that and I don't see unions backing down or being forced to change any time soon, so it is probably not worth worrying about too much, but it would be interesting to see what would happen if massive layoffs/firing were to happen across the USA.

 

By the way, have you read or heard of Michelle Rhee? I was very impressed with her and her ideas on reforming education.

 

Dawn

 

Friends in CT sent me this link.

 

http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_update_02-11-10_5HHDMPV_v52.398afed.html

 

apparently the teachers were not fired, but when it looked like they would be there were roughly 10 applicants for every position that would have become vacant. With 10% percent unemployment in our nation I suspect that replacement teachers could be found, and the truth be told they would be hard pressed to perform in a manner any worse than the current stock of teachers, I suspect that they would be far better. In much of our ps school system there remains only one direction to go and that is up.

[pqr]

By the way, have you read or heard of Michelle Rhee? I was very impressed with her and her ideas on reforming education.

 

Dawn

 

She impressed me as well.

[Mejane]

Friends in CT sent me this link.

 

http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_update_02-11-10_5HHDMPV_v52.398afed.html

 

 

 

I don't think any of Sup't. Gallo's requirements are unreasonable. These teachers are making almost $80K per year. As you said, they can either go along or let someone else do the job. I believe the days of union stranglehold on the education system are over.

[pqr]

I believe the days of union stranglehold on the education system are over.

 

 

I do hope that you are right.