Shocking Blog Post Concerning New Airport Security...

[stephanier.1765]

The thing is that if terrorists are motivated enough they will find a way. If they are scanning and patting down women and children because they feel terrorists will use them as an end to a means, then the terrorists will absolutely use ways that even those methods can't detect, such as implants. I'm sure they can make fake boobs, testicles, even knees that can explode and, if they can't yet, they will. What will we have to go through then when that happens?

[TN Mama]

Well, in our area, there are going to be some pretty major lawsuits on this. Yesterday, a Detroit radio station (well, I think it was Detroit, I'd have to ask my dad because I don't remember the call numbers) did a call in program and had a few "frequent flyers" on the show and a few disgusting situations were discussed.

 

One was the lack of female TSA agents at several airports. Two women have filed suit against the TSA for being patted down by male agents. The younger of the two, a women in her early 30's, was groped so hard in her genital area that she had to stand on her tip-toes trying to keep from losing her balance. Other passengers were so outraged, oh yeah this was done in the passenger screening area in front of everyone, that after they went through their scans, they approached her and told her they hoped she sued and they would be willing to testify as witnesses! That's how bad it was.

 

Another caller was furious because his 24 month old daughter, who was terrified to walk through the scanner by herself and the agents refused to let her be walked through by mum or dad, was taken aside and in full view of everyone, had her diaper removed and the agent, without gloves, fingered her vaginal area! Seriously, if that is my kid, someone is going to jail for molestation!!!!!

 

Another guy, traveling with a letter from his doctor about his prostetic knees, still had to have the full pat down because his knees triggered the scanner. The letter was legit, on the doctor's office stationary, signed, and listed the doctor's phone number plus the orthopedic surgeon's as well in case there should be any questions. Nope, not good enough and according to him, the genital grope was hard enough to be uncomfortable.

 

So, all in all, I truly believe that in the name of security, we are being groomed by our government to be legally molested and have all our liberties taken away "for our own good".

 

Dh and I were going to take ds, nearly 14, to Germany. He's been begging to go and we told him we'd consider it if he got two full years of German under his belt and practiced with a tutor. We also told ds 12, that if he mastered enough Danish, we'd take him to Denmark to meet dh's cousins. Both of those trips are now off the table as long as this is the security we have to deal with.

 

Oh, and at some airports, even if you agree to be scanned, you can end up still enduring the pat-down as well because they are randomly patting down a certain percentage of travelers in those higher risk locations.

 

We need to profile, based on behavioral studies (just like the FBI teaches at Quantico and just like the Israeli's) and stop all of this nonsense. Criminals and murderers are just that....not law abiding citizens and hence, will always work to use technology to overcome our security while innocent travelers get abused in the name of safety.

 

Faith

 

Wow... just... WOW! I'd be in jail right now if this happened to my child.

[Gratia271]

Well, in our area, there are going to be some pretty major lawsuits on this. Yesterday, a Detroit radio station (well, I think it was Detroit, I'd have to ask my dad because I don't remember the call numbers) did a call in program and had a few "frequent flyers" on the show and a few disgusting situations were discussed.

 

One was the lack of female TSA agents at several airports. Two women have filed suit against the TSA for being patted down by male agents. The younger of the two, a women in her early 30's, was groped so hard in her genital area that she had to stand on her tip-toes trying to keep from losing her balance. Other passengers were so outraged, oh yeah this was done in the passenger screening area in front of everyone, that after they went through their scans, they approached her and told her they hoped she sued and they would be willing to testify as witnesses! That's how bad it was.

 

Another caller was furious because his 24 month old daughter, who was terrified to walk through the scanner by herself and the agents refused to let her be walked through by mum or dad, was taken aside and in full view of everyone, had her diaper removed and the agent, without gloves, fingered her vaginal area! Seriously, if that is my kid, someone is going to jail for molestation!!!!!

 

Another guy, traveling with a letter from his doctor about his prostetic knees, still had to have the full pat down because his knees triggered the scanner. The letter was legit, on the doctor's office stationary, signed, and listed the doctor's phone number plus the orthopedic surgeon's as well in case there should be any questions. Nope, not good enough and according to him, the genital grope was hard enough to be uncomfortable.

 

So, all in all, I truly believe that in the name of security, we are being groomed by our government to be legally molested and have all our liberties taken away "for our own good".

 

Dh and I were going to take ds, nearly 14, to Germany. He's been begging to go and we told him we'd consider it if he got two full years of German under his belt and practiced with a tutor. We also told ds 12, that if he mastered enough Danish, we'd take him to Denmark to meet dh's cousins. Both of those trips are now off the table as long as this is the security we have to deal with.

 

Oh, and at some airports, even if you agree to be scanned, you can end up still enduring the pat-down as well because they are randomly patting down a certain percentage of travelers in those higher risk locations.

 

We need to profile, based on behavioral studies (just like the FBI teaches at Quantico and just like the Israeli's) and stop all of this nonsense. Criminals and murderers are just that....not law abiding citizens and hence, will always work to use technology to overcome our security while innocent travelers get abused in the name of safety.

 

Faith

 

How degrading! This is beyond disgusting. :mad:

[TN Mama]

Next time I fly, I'm just going to wear a hijab. That way, no one can touch my boobs.

 

From CAIR's website:

 

 

 

 

a

 

:confused: Yet, let's take a diaper off a baby and probe the genital area!

[Elaine]

Next time I fly, I'm just going to wear a hijab. That way, no one can touch my boobs.

 

From CAIR's website:

 

 

 

 

a

 

I said the same thing to my husband the other day. It's abso-freaking-lutely

insane!

[*lifeoftheparty*]

How many flights in America have had terrorists on them? We know the shoe bomber and the underwear bomber. Any others? Seriously, I'm trying to remember, but those are the only two that come to mind. Now, how many flights in Europe have been grounded because of the threat of terrorism? Even the cargo bombs did not originate here.

 

I know it's a PITA. The screenings I went though in Europe were nothing compared to what we go through here and they don't seem to be working as well. You can pat me down (same gender is an option),scan me, search my luggage - as long as it is done to everyone. None of this nonsense of searching 2 yo kids to fulfull a "randomness" requirement.

 

Again, I would like to point out that the SAFEST airport in the WORLD, the Ben Gurion International Airport, in Israel, does NOT use these scanners. THEY PROFILE. They have tons of other security measures in place (that I linked to in my other post on the other thread) but none of them humiliate every flyer who comes through. If someone is suspected, they get asked lots of invasive QUESTIONS and have their stuff done through, but they aren't losing basic rights UNLESS THEIR IS REASONABLE SUSPICION.

 

The thing that bugs me so much is that American people are willing to subject every single flyer who goes through, including innocent women and children, US Soldiers, and government workers with TOP SECRET security clearances to this invasion of privacy, but WILL NOT subject a small portion of people to PROFILING, which involves nothing more than invasive QUESTIONS and search of STUFF. Add to that, that Muslim groups are already trying to get Muslim women excluded from the pat downs (except for head and neck).

 

So, Muslim terrorists try to take down airplanes, and what are the GENIUS Americans going to do? Take away the rights of innocent citizens and soldiers while excluding Muslim women from the screening and not profile the men, b/c it might OFFEND them !?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!? SO, we can offend EVERYONE ELSE and traumatize/feel up 3 yr. olds, but not question the very people who fit the profile of the troublemakers????????

 

Meanwhile, we are NO safer b/c of it.........

 

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone. :confused:

[Ester Maria]

Again, I would like to point out that the SAFEST airport in the WORLD, the Ben Gurion International Airport, in Israel, does NOT use these scanners. THEY PROFILE. They have tons of other security measures in place (that I linked to in my other post on the other thread) but none of them humiliate every flyer who comes through. If someone is suspected, they get asked lots of invasive QUESTIONS and have their stuff done through, but they aren't losing basic rights UNLESS THEIR IS REASONABLE SUSPICION.

Exactly.

[stephanier.1765]

Next time I fly, I'm just going to wear a hijab. That way, no one can touch my boobs.

 

From CAIR's website:

 

 

 

 

a

 

And yet yesterday I saw a picture of a nun going through the fully body check.

[Elaine]

Again, I would like to point out that the SAFEST airport in the WORLD, the Ben Gurion International Airport, in Israel, does NOT use these scanners. THEY PROFILE. They have tons of other security measures in place (that I linked to in my other post on the other thread) but none of them humiliate every flyer who comes through. If someone is suspected, they get asked lots of invasive QUESTIONS and have their stuff done through, but they aren't losing basic rights UNLESS THEIR IS REASONABLE SUSPICION.

 

The thing that bugs me so much is that American people are willing to subject every single flyer who goes through, including innocent women and children, US Soldiers, and government workers with TOP SECRET security clearances to this invasion of privacy, but WILL NOT subject a small portion of people to PROFILING, which involves nothing more than invasive QUESTIONS and search of STUFF. Add to that, that Muslim groups are already trying to get Muslim women excluded from the pat downs (except for head and neck).

 

So, Muslim terrorists try to take down airplanes, and what are the GENIUS Americans going to do? Take away the rights of innocent citizens and soldiers while excluding Muslim women from the screening and not profile the men, b/c it might OFFEND them !?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!? SO, we can offend EVERYONE ELSE and traumatize/feel up 3 yr. olds, but not question the very people who fit the profile of the troublemakers????????

 

Meanwhile, we are NO safer b/c of it.........

 

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone. :confused:

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Elaine]

Here is a link showing the scanner photo and what the TSA sees. Not invasive? Quite the opposite. Also, the images are stored and saved.

 

Diclaimer: The male genitalia can be see quite well. If this offends you, please do not click on the link.

[mommaduck]

Well, in our area, there are going to be some pretty major lawsuits on this. Yesterday, a Detroit radio station (well, I think it was Detroit, I'd have to ask my dad because I don't remember the call numbers) did a call in program and had a few "frequent flyers" on the show and a few disgusting situations were discussed.

 

One was the lack of female TSA agents at several airports. Two women have filed suit against the TSA for being patted down by male agents. The younger of the two, a women in her early 30's, was groped so hard in her genital area that she had to stand on her tip-toes trying to keep from losing her balance. Other passengers were so outraged, oh yeah this was done in the passenger screening area in front of everyone, that after they went through their scans, they approached her and told her they hoped she sued and they would be willing to testify as witnesses! That's how bad it was.

 

Another caller was furious because his 24 month old daughter, who was terrified to walk through the scanner by herself and the agents refused to let her be walked through by mum or dad, was taken aside and in full view of everyone, had her diaper removed and the agent, without gloves, fingered her vaginal area! Seriously, if that is my kid, someone is going to jail for molestation!!!!!

 

Another guy, traveling with a letter from his doctor about his prostetic knees, still had to have the full pat down because his knees triggered the scanner. The letter was legit, on the doctor's office stationary, signed, and listed the doctor's phone number plus the orthopedic surgeon's as well in case there should be any questions. Nope, not good enough and according to him, the genital grope was hard enough to be uncomfortable.

 

So, all in all, I truly believe that in the name of security, we are being groomed by our government to be legally molested and have all our liberties taken away "for our own good".

 

Dh and I were going to take ds, nearly 14, to Germany. He's been begging to go and we told him we'd consider it if he got two full years of German under his belt and practiced with a tutor. We also told ds 12, that if he mastered enough Danish, we'd take him to Denmark to meet dh's cousins. Both of those trips are now off the table as long as this is the security we have to deal with.

 

Oh, and at some airports, even if you agree to be scanned, you can end up still enduring the pat-down as well because they are randomly patting down a certain percentage of travelers in those higher risk locations.

 

We need to profile, based on behavioral studies (just like the FBI teaches at Quantico and just like the Israeli's) and stop all of this nonsense. Criminals and murderers are just that....not law abiding citizens and hence, will always work to use technology to overcome our security while innocent travelers get abused in the name of safety.

 

Faith

That is all flipping insane! I really do hope that the dad and women sue!

[Spy Car]

Again, I would like to point out that the SAFEST airport in the WORLD, the Ben Gurion International Airport, in Israel, does NOT use these scanners. THEY PROFILE. They have tons of other security measures in place (that I linked to in my other post on the other thread) but none of them humiliate every flyer who comes through.

 

So you want a system where it is OK to humiliate members of one ethnic or religious minority every time they fly? Because that is what happens in Israel.

 

I thank goodness we live in a different kind of society.

 

Bill

[Laurie4b]

This is apparently even worse of a nightmare for medically challenged people. Somewhere online last night, I read through a comments section following a news article posting this man's experience. It was full of medically challenged people for whom security was a nightmare: people with feeding tubes afraid TSA would pull them out, a diabetic with an insulin pump forced to walk through the metal detector (i think that was it); he said it would kill his device and they made him do it anyway, so he was then allowed to fly, but without a working pump; anyone with knee replacements, etc. HAS to do the scanner or the pat-down because they have metal in their bodies (so lots of older folk) ; people in wheelchairs forced to walk; people with doctor's explanations of what their implants, devices, etc. were having those documents ignored, etc. etc.

 

From the comments, a huge part of the problem is "attitude" on the part of TSA workers, who don't show much intelligence and apparently have poor training, but do like to wield power. Several comments said exactly the same "pat downs" were done respectfully and professionally in Europe and select US airports. I think it's the combination of arrogant & dumb that is making this so invasive for many travelers.

 

Once you are in security, you can't walk out. You are forced through the procedures. The reason for that is that you could be a terrorist aborting a mission. If terrorists can just retry until they don't get randomly selected, and walk away if they do, then they can carry out their mission.

 

What a mess.

Edited November 16, 2010 by Laurie4b

[Lorien]

:iagree: That this is a violation of our rights, and it is molestation, pornography.......

 

If anyone is flying on 11/24 or knows someone who will be flying. . . . just stand away at the back of the line so hopefully by the time the TSA get to you they'll be well and truly sick and tired of patting people down! :001_smile:

 

To the brave - thanks! :patriot:

[Mejane]

So you want a system where it is OK to humiliate members of one ethnic or religious minority every time they fly? Because that is what happens in Israel.

 

I thank goodness we live in a different kind of society.

 

Bill

 

We are not Israel, Bill. We can take the good and leave the bad. We're talking about behavioral profiling, not racial profiling. Neither the shoe bomber nor the underwear bomber were of a certain ethnic minority.

[Aggie]

nm

Edited November 16, 2010 by Aggie

[Abigail4476]

IMO, the most important objection raised is that in normal law enforcement, you have to have reasonable "suspicion" as John Tyner said, in order to do searches. The TSA is trying to do away with this aspect, and up security on regular citizens without good reason.

 

NO ONE is going to do a full body search or full body scan on my children. If we have to wait until we can afford to charter a private plane or just drive, then that's what we'll do. If hundreds of thousands of other Americans would simply take their business elsewhere, the TSA would realize the *importance* of its security measures very quickly. When the government OR businesses overstep boundaries, the citizens show them where those boundaries are by using the almighty dollar to their advantage. It's a power play.

 

It's a sad day when people are so unconcerned about their personal rights and boundaries that they don't care when a stranger either sees them naked or touches them all over without any good reason at all. Obviously a lot of Americans have already drank the kool-aid, and don't even know what their rights should be.

[Joanne]

About 5 years ago, my oldest was traveling to Florida "unattended" to spend a week with his Aunt.

 

He was randomly selected for a "full screen". He was old enough to travel solo, but young enough to need some kind of coaching, information and help through the higher screening.

 

Do you know what it's like to have a 10 year old look, scared, while a random "official" stranger feels his scrotum? "Mommy why is he feeling my balls?" :confused: The TSA staff was not happy as I verbally coached him.:001_huh:

 

The full screening took up so much time that he had to board as soon as we got to the gate. I wasn't able to process the issue with him.

 

I posted about it here, in outrage, and got *reamed* by some posters about the need for security, blah......blah............blah. Oh, and the posters who talked about how "they'd never let their child fly a plane unattended".

 

Fortunately:

 

1) I called my sister and prepped her so she could process it with him.

2) He had a great time with his Aunt (who happens to live near Orlando, Fl ;)).

[Mama Geek]

.

 

Dh and I were going to take ds, nearly 14, to Germany. He's been begging to go and we told him we'd consider it if he got two full years of German under his belt and practiced with a tutor. We also told ds 12, that if he mastered enough Danish, we'd take him to Denmark to meet dh's cousins. Both of those trips are now off the table as long as this is the security we have to deal with.

 

Faith

 

I don't know where you are but is it possible for your family to fly from Canada?

[mommaduck]

We are not Israel, Bill. We can take the good and leave the bad. We're talking about behavioral profiling, not racial profiling. Neither the shoe bomber nor the underwear bomber were of a certain ethnic minority.

Precisely.

[Kates]

So you want a system where it is OK to humiliate members of one ethnic or religious minority every time they fly? Because that is what happens in Israel.

 

I thank goodness we live in a different kind of society.

 

Bill

 

Sorry, but there's a reason for it there. Good grief, the babies along the West Bank have their own gas masks. Residents of the area take their lives in their hands by sending their kids to school or stopping for a coffee at a cafe.

 

Scanning and groping, but refusing to profile here is asinine. Good grief, I've seen little old ladies and young children (all white, by the way) pulled aside for "random scanning" but a Muslim man who's 6'2" and 240 waved through because they're scared to pull him. If that isn't racist, I don't know what is.

 

Yes, the fact that my family and I are much more likely to be pulled aside because we're white and Christian, and loyal Americans to boot, scares the carp out of me. It already is happening in American, it's been happening for years - just to the wrong ethnicity.

 

Do I think they should pull aside every Muslim? Of course not...that would be stupid. This isn't Palestine. It just seems pretty stupid that a) our government would be adverse to stationing profilers in airports, since it's proven to be effective and b) TSA scanners would either bypass a Muslim person or subject them to a less effective (read: humiliating) scan, solely because they're Muslim. As far as I've seen, the only people who have attacked planes in this way over the last decade have been fanatic Muslims. Either make the scanning truly random (or scan every single person the same), or back it down and have profilers. (The second choice, IMO, makes a LOT more sense.)

 

If you're going to have security measures in place, make them effective. The current ones are just a misplaced abuse of power.

Edited November 16, 2010 by Kates

[LizzyBee]

Have any planes in American blown up? Have any people died as a result of a terrorist attack since 9/11? Of course there have been incidents, but there hasn't been a deadly incident in 9 years. NINE years!

 

I know there is a boatload of bureaucracy carp that exists - but we have made it this far without the terrorists being successful even once. I'd say something is working.

 

:iagree: What's working is the boring, tedious investigative work that we never see, not airport theatrics.

[Spy Car]

Actually they are using a system that checks for body cues based on flashed images. People willing to kill others come in many races and even multiple religions (for those who have a short historical memory). Radical jihadist Muslims are not the only people who hate Americans.

 

I am friends with multiple families who are either Isreali Arabs with Israeli and American citizenship, or Palestinians married to Israeli Arabs, and I can tell you the women they get pulled aside for humiliating "body cavity" searches every time they fly into Ben Gurion airport when visiting family. It is a disgusting system.

 

Bill

[Sophia]

The thing that bugs me so much is that American people are willing to subject every single flyer who goes through, including innocent women and children, US Soldiers, and government workers with TOP SECRET security clearances to this invasion of privacy, but WILL NOT subject a small portion of people to PROFILING, which involves nothing more than invasive QUESTIONS and search of STUFF. Add to that, that Muslim groups are already trying to get Muslim women excluded from the pat downs (except for head and neck).

 

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone. :confused:

 

:iagree:

[FaithManor]

Ester Maria,

 

I am not joking, I did not hear it wrong, and there were many, many witnesses to the event. This man literally grabbed his child away from the agent and told a law enforcement official nearby that he would be filing charges of sexual molestation on behalf of his child. The TSA agent did not wear gloves and according to witnesses, was fingering her genitalia and "taking his merry time" which caused the father to grab his child. The father, according to the local TSA office, could conceivably be charged for refusing to submit his daughter to the rest of the pat-down and for attempting to leave the area to find a federal marshal or sheriff's deputy to demand action.

 

I haven't heard anymore...if there was a federal marshal or sheriff's deputy in the building, I certainly hope they did their job, marched down there, and arrested the guy for committing a criminal sexual act - there were plenty of witnesses to the felony in process. Alas, I am however skeptical and expect that the TSA and Feds will protect the agent from reprocussions. I do think that the sheriff's department would react strongly in favor of the dad. Michigan Sheriff's departments are known for being on the side of their law abiding citizens!

 

Faith

[naturegirl7]

I dunno, maybe I'm in the minority here but I feel more comfortable the higher the security measures. The patdowns don't bother me. It would be uncomfortable from a mental standpoint but I'm willing to do that. I'd also feel better know my fellow passengers were deemed safer as well. Once you're up in the air, there is pretty much no turning back. I'll give up a few of my rights (it really is questionable in this case-airlines are private companies) to feel safer in the air.

 

I totally agree! I don't like the scanners or the bioeffects they can cause. BUT there is a way to opt out. If it means a general pat down - so be it. It may not be comfortably but is NOT being groped. There is a big difference IMO.

People who intend to cause harm, will go to any lengths to do so. They will put explosive inside baby diapers and clothing or strapped to the baby itself or strap it to children on the streets and send them to the soldiers....I don't want that getting on MY plane.

 

I would also EXPECT officials to take it seriously and investigate someone who refuses to undergo the basic, well known, security measures. It is a HUGE red flag to expect to fly and yet refuse to undergo standard security means. The metal detector is simply not as effective as the other measures. Sorry but that is just the way it is. If the metal detectors were effective 9/11 would never have happened. Either submit to the scanners, opt out and get the patdown, or find a difference method of transport.

 

Having lived outside the City when this was happening may color my feeling on this one - not knowing if friends, family, or the parents of the children in my care were alive is something I will NEVER forget. I don't want that to happen again. I don't want to breath the air that has been polluted with horrific chemicals due to buildings burning and collasping...

I don't want to fly on a plane that may be used to cause more tragedy.

 

You're right to not have your "junk" possibly brushed during a patdown does NOT trump the right of the other passengers and staff to fly safely. Period.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

So you want a system where it is OK to humiliate members of one ethnic or religious minority every time they fly? Because that is what happens in Israel.

 

I thank goodness we live in a different kind of society.

 

Bill

 

I don't think asking invasive QUESTIONS is as humiliating as groping someone; I don't think it's humiliating at all, actually. I had to do it to get my security clearance. If every person who tried to bomb a plane was named Sue, and my name was Sue, I would expect to be questioned and just deal with it. I would not expect to be strip searched unless my name was Sue, AND I was a member of a known hate group, AND I was acting nervous.

 

Again, Ben Gurion is the most targeted airport and El Al is the most targeted airline, YET they are the safest. You can disagree all you want, but the FACT is, what they are doing is working. All of the attempted bombers here have made it on the plane DESPITE the ridiculous measures we are taking.

 

Yeah, the kind of society that gropes small children? The kind of society that gives up all their rights like sheep to the slaughter? Okey Dokey then, you drink that Kool-Aid.

[FaithManor]

Bill,

 

I understand what you are saying but to be honest with you...I think the American public is desperate for some sanity here. I, for one, am not willing to surrender the liberty to the privacy of my genitalia to the groping of a stranger in the name of "not profiling" or for the sake of "randomness". I am certainly not going to submit my children to this. I have one son who would be VERY emotionally scarred since he had a horrible experience with a pediatrician that we FIRED because he felt the need to check ds for sexual abuse because in his mind, "all homeschoolers do so in order to hide their abuse". Ds would come unglued now if some TSA agent grabbed him in that area. We'll be lucky to ever get this kid in to see a urologist if he ever needed one!

 

Faith

[asta]

I am friends with multiple families who are either Isreali Arabs with Israeli and American citizenship, or Palestinians married to Israeli Arabs, and I can tell you the women they get pulled aside for humiliating "body cavity" searches every time they fly into Ben Gurion airport when visiting family. It is a disgusting system.

 

Bill

 

And yet, no successful hijackings since 1968.

 

What a sorry record, eh?

 

Here's the thing - security at BG doesn't just work that way. You have to have certain visas in your passport from certain countries that are known origins of problems, or be on a list as a known problem yourself. Or, there is a terrible case of misidentification that needs to be cleared up. Which one would think a person would investigate doing if that happened to them every time they flew into a country.

 

Someone isn't giving you the whole story, Bill; profiling doesn't work that way, and neither does Israeli security.

 

 

asta

[mommaduck]

I totally agree! I don't like the scanners or the bioeffects they can cause. BUT there is a way to opt out. If it means a general pat down - so be it. It may not be comfortably but is NOT being groped. There is a big difference IMO.

People who intend to cause harm, will go to any lengths to do so. They will put explosive inside baby diapers and clothing or strapped to the baby itself or strap it to children on the streets and send them to the soldiers....I don't want that getting on MY plane.

 

I would also EXPECT officials to take it seriously and investigate someone who refuses to undergo the basic, well known, security measures. It is a HUGE red flag to expect to fly and yet refuse to undergo standard security means. The metal detector is simply not as effective as the other measures. Sorry but that is just the way it is. If the metal detectors were effective 9/11 would never have happened. Either submit to the scanners, opt out and get the patdown, or find a difference method of transport.

 

Having lived outside the City when this was happening may color my feeling on this one - not knowing if friends, family, or the parents of the children in my care were alive is something I will NEVER forget. I don't want that to happen again. I don't want to breath the air that has been polluted with horrific chemicals due to buildings burning and collasping...

I don't want to fly on a plane that may be used to cause more tragedy.

 

You're right to not have your "junk" possibly brushed during a patdown does NOT trump the right of the other passengers and staff to fly safely. Period.

Please go back and read the last several pages, particularly the posts by FaithManor. This isn't just "patting down"...it isn't even "just" groping. It's gone beyond that.

[Spy Car]

I don't think asking invasive QUESTIONS is as humiliating as groping someone; I don't think it's humiliating at all, actually. I had to do it to get my security clearance. If every person who tried to bomb a plane was named Sue, and my name was Sue, I would expect to be questioned and just deal with it. I would not expect to be strip searched unless my name was Sue, AND I was a member of a known hate group, AND I was acting nervous.

 

Again, Ben Gurion is the most targeted airport and El Al is the most targeted airline, YET they are the safest. You can disagree all you want, but the FACT is, what they are doing is working. All of the attempted bombers here have made it on the plane DESPITE the ridiculous measures we are taking.

 

Yeah, the kind of society that gropes small children? The kind of society that gives up all their rights like sheep to the slaughter? Okey Dokey then, you drink that Kool-Aid.

 

The humiliation goes WAY BEYOND asking humiliating questions. Women I know personally (close friends) are subjected to cavity searches every time they fly into Ben Gurion. And these are lovely well-educated people (who incidentally don't wear hijabs, not that it should matter) who do speak Hebrew, and are no threat to anyone.

 

That is "profiling" Israeli style.

 

Bill

[Murphy101]

Wait for the law suits to start rolling in from women who are very early pregnant and "forced" to go through the scanner.

 

 

Thank you! I have asked repeatedly about this and not once have a been given a decent answer. Yet when I injured my ankle, the hospital staff was very upset about taking an xray of just my ankle even with several lead blankets draped over me.

 

:iagree: That this is a violation of our rights, and it is molestation, pornography.......

 

If anyone is flying on 11/24 or knows someone who will be flying. . . . just stand away at the back of the line so hopefully by the time the TSA get to you they'll be well and truly sick and tired of patting people down! :001_smile:

 

To the brave - thanks! :patriot:

 

Actually, I've been hearing on the radio and news that people are encouraging everyone to boycott the scanners and the pat downs on that day to send a message to the TSA and airlines. I hope they do and in large numbers!

[mommaduck]

 

Actually, I've been hearing on the radio and news that people are encouraging everyone to boycott the scanners and the pat downs on that day to send a message to the TSA and airlines. I hope they do and in large numbers!

:iagree: To be a fly on the wall when that would happen! You want to talk about backed up holiday traffic at the airport ;)

[Spy Car]

 

Someone isn't giving you the whole story, Bill; profiling doesn't work that way, and neither does Israeli security.

 

 

asta

 

I'm sorry Astra you are wrong about this. The humiliations happen constantly. It even extends to getting a visa in the first place, as the consulate here denies them every year and relents only after legal proceedings are started (and expenses are incurred). It is a disgusting system.

 

Bill

[Lorien]

Thank you! I have asked repeatedly about this and not once have a been given a decent answer. Yet when I injured my ankle, the hospital staff was very upset about taking an xray of just my ankle even with several lead blankets draped over me.

 

 

 

Actually, I've been hearing on the radio and news that people are encouraging everyone to boycott the scanners and the pat downs on that day to send a message to the TSA and airlines. I hope they do and in large numbers!

 

Okay, that's even better than I heard! I heard that it was just an opt out of the scanner. . .but a total boycott is even better!

 

I did read just a moment ago that airports - by law - can get private security. I don't know if that would change their having to use the scanners and give pat downs, but apparently security doesn't have to be done by TSA. In my experience, private contractors are usually a little more concerned about their own job security, so they might think twice before subjecting anyone to an invasive "measures" in case their company gets sued. Maybe it wouldn't be any better, but it might be.

[Elaine]

Sorry, but there's a reason for it there. Good grief, the babies along the West Bank have their own gas masks. Residents of the area take their lives in their hands by sending their kids to school or stopping for a coffee at a cafe.

 

Scanning and groping, but refusing to profile here is asinine. Good grief, I've seen little old ladies and young children (all white, by the way) pulled aside for "random scanning" but a Muslim man who's 6'2" and 240 waved through because they're scared to pull him. If that isn't racist, I don't know what is.

 

Yes, the fact that my family and I are much more likely to be pulled aside because we're white and Christian, and loyal Americans to boot, scares the carp out of me. It already is happening in American, it's been happening for years - just to the wrong ethnicity.

 

Do I think they should pull aside every Muslim? Of course not...that would be stupid. This isn't Palestine. It just seems pretty stupid that a) our government would be adverse to stationing profilers in airports, since it's proven to be effective and b) TSA scanners would either bypass a Muslim person or subject them to a less effective (read: humiliating) scan, solely because they're Muslim. As far as I've seen, the only people who have attacked planes in this way over the last decade have been fanatic Muslims. Either make the scanning truly random (or scan every single person the same), or back it down and have profilers. (The second choice, IMO, makes a LOT more sense.)

 

If you're going to have security measures in place, make them effective. The current ones are just a misplaced abuse of power.

 

Fantastic post.

[FaithManor]

So, here's a nasty question...if the airlines go bankrupt because people just get sick of it and stop flying, do we the taxpayers, have to pay them bailouts on top of everything else????

 

I have met so many people who say they will fly no longer. I do think this is going to be a problem.

 

As for business travelers, it is going to make it very, very easy for companies to choose to do everything by conference call and internet. Dh already coordinates meetings betweeen individuals from eleven countries at one time all from the safety of our home. I can see a time coming when there won't be any business flyers and the average American may well decide that they are not going to put themselves through this for "pleasure" travel.

 

Faith

[brightside]

You're right to not have your "junk" possibly brushed during a patdown does NOT trump the right of the other passengers and staff to fly safely. Period.

 

Well I am afraid someone might bring a bomb to a shopping mall or the grocery store, so these scanners and pat-downs should be forced on everyone before they are allowed to leave their house.

[asta]

I don't want to fly on a plane that may be used to cause more tragedy.

 

 

So how is irradiating and patting down people going to stop someone from using the plane?

 

Seriously.

 

The plane itself is the weapon.

 

Well, that and fear. And the fear part has already been accomplished. Why do you think it is called terrorism?

 

UBL et al aren't stupid. These are university educated, well read individuals. Who happen to be willing to send minions to die for the establishment of the Caliphate.

 

Yep, I said it. We've had exactly ONE non-muslim terrorist in recent memory - Timothy McVeigh. Everyone else has ascribed to Islam. And before anyone starts tossing "moderate Muslims" and "religion of peace" at me, go read the Koran. It is meant to be read sequentially (says so, right inside). All of those soft fluffy bunny suras you hear repeated ad nauseam about peace and harmony are at the BEGINNING. The kill all of the infidels stuff comes later. And guess what? If you're not Muslim, you're an infidel.

 

Well, here's my take on it - I will not submit.

[Gratia271]

So, here's a nasty question...if the airlines go bankrupt because people just get sick of it and stop flying, do we the taxpayers, have to pay them bailouts on top of everything else????

Isn't this the American way nowadays?

 

I have met so many people who say they will fly no longer. I do think this is going to be a problem.

 

I know many also!

 

As for business travelers, it is going to make it very, very easy for companies to choose to do everything by conference call and internet. Dh already coordinates meetings betweeen individuals from eleven countries at one time all from the safety of our home. I can see a time coming when there won't be any business flyers and the average American may well decide that they are not going to put themselves through this for "pleasure" travel.

 

What a delightful way to usher in our Christmas holidays! :mad:

 

Faith

 

Fortunately, technology allows alternatives for at least some business people.

[Gratia271]

So how is irradiating and patting down people going to stop someone from using the plane?

 

Seriously.

 

The plane itself is the weapon.

 

Well, that and fear. And the fear part has already been accomplished. Why do you think it is called terrorism?

 

UBL et al aren't stupid. These are university educated, well read individuals. Who happen to be willing to send minions to die for the establishment of the Caliphate.

 

Yep, I said it. We've had exactly ONE non-muslim terrorist in recent memory - Timothy McVeigh. Everyone else has ascribed to Islam. And before anyone starts tossing "moderate Muslims" and "religion of peace" at me, go read the Koran. It is meant to be read sequentially (says so, right inside). All of those soft fluffy bunny suras you hear repeated ad nauseam about peace and harmony are at the BEGINNING. The kill all of the infidels stuff comes later. And guess what? If you're not Muslim, you're an infidel.

 

Well, here's my take on it - I will not submit.

 

Thank you for saying this.

[Spy Car]

Bill,

 

I understand what you are saying but to be honest with you...I think the American public is desperate for some sanity here. I, for one, am not willing to surrender the liberty to the privacy of my genitalia to the groping of a stranger in the name of "not profiling" or for the sake of "randomness". I am certainly not going to submit my children to this. I have one son who would be VERY emotionally scarred since he had a horrible experience with a pediatrician that we FIRED because he felt the need to check ds for sexual abuse because in his mind, "all homeschoolers do so in order to hide their abuse". Ds would come unglued now if some TSA agent grabbed him in that area. We'll be lucky to ever get this kid in to see a urologist if he ever needed one!

 

Faith

 

I understand the sense of frustration with the new rules. But is the answer to allow humiliation for "the other" while exempting ourselves? Is that the Golden Rule?

 

What if the TSA decides to "profile" and they (to avoid appearances of being strictly racial/religious) decided to focus on any people associated with activities that included a fair number of extremists and anti-government types? Are you seeing where I'm going here?

 

Homeschoolers. There are certainly more than enough nutters to make homeschoolers a suspect class. You all good with invase questions about your unconventional life-styles? And being segregated out for strip searches Israeli style so the rest of us can pass freely?

 

Bill

[Elaine]

So how is irradiating and patting down people going to stop someone from using the plane?

 

Seriously.

 

The plane itself is the weapon.

 

Well, that and fear. And the fear part has already been accomplished. Why do you think it is called terrorism?

 

UBL et al aren't stupid. These are university educated, well read individuals. Who happen to be willing to send minions to die for the establishment of the Caliphate.

 

Yep, I said it. We've had exactly ONE non-muslim terrorist in recent memory - Timothy McVeigh. Everyone else has ascribed to Islam. And before anyone starts tossing "moderate Muslims" and "religion of peace" at me, go read the Koran. It is meant to be read sequentially (says so, right inside). All of those soft fluffy bunny suras you hear repeated ad nauseam about peace and harmony are at the BEGINNING. The kill all of the infidels stuff comes later. And guess what? If you're not Muslim, you're an infidel.

 

Well, here's my take on it - I will not submit.

 

Thank-you for saying it, Asta. I could.not.agree.more.

[mommaduck]

Bill, I can't speak for nor against you or Asta on the BG issue. But we are speaking about HERE. Question: do you not agree with BEHAVIORAL profiling? (aka, not based on ethnicity)

[Abigail4476]

I understand the sense of frustration with the new rules. But is the answer to allow humiliation for "the other" while exempting ourselves? Is that the Golden Rule?

 

What if the TSA decides to "profile" and they (to avoid appearances of being strictly racial/religious) decided to focus on any people associated with activities that included a fair number of extremists and anti-government types? Are you seeing where I'm going here?

 

Homeschoolers. There are certainly more than enough nutters to make homeschoolers a suspect class. You all good with invase questions about your unconventional life-styles? And being segregated out for strip searches Israeli style so the rest of us can pass freely?

 

Bill

 

When homeschoolers start strapping on bombs and blowing up restaurants or taking over planes, I will expect my family's lifestyle to come under scrutiny.

[Elaine]

I understand the sense of frustration with the new rules. But is the answer to allow humiliation for "the other" while exempting ourselves? Is that the Golden Rule?

 

What if the TSA decides to "profile" and they (to avoid appearances of being strictly racial/religious) decided to focus on any people associated with activities that included a fair number of extremists and anti-government types? Are you seeing where I'm going here?

 

Homeschoolers. There are certainly more than enough nutters to make homeschoolers a suspect class. You all good with invase questions about your unconventional life-styles? And being segregated out for strip searches Israeli style so the rest of us can pass freely?

 

Bill

 

 

Yes, because we all know that home schoolers are the ones blowing up planes and setting off roadside bombs. :001_rolleyes:

 

They profile people who have been known to participate in a certain activity.

[Aggie]

So how is irradiating and patting down people going to stop someone from using the plane?

 

Seriously.

 

The plane itself is the weapon.

 

Well, that and fear. And the fear part has already been accomplished. Why do you think it is called terrorism?

 

UBL et al aren't stupid. These are university educated, well read individuals. Who happen to be willing to send minions to die for the establishment of the Caliphate.

 

Yep, I said it. We've had exactly ONE non-muslim terrorist in recent memory - Timothy McVeigh. Everyone else has ascribed to Islam. And before anyone starts tossing "moderate Muslims" and "religion of peace" at me, go read the Koran. It is meant to be read sequentially (says so, right inside). All of those soft fluffy bunny suras you hear repeated ad nauseam about peace and harmony are at the BEGINNING. The kill all of the infidels stuff comes later. And guess what? If you're not Muslim, you're an infidel.

 

Well, here's my take on it - I will not submit.

 

Yup.

[Spy Car]

Bill, I can't speak for nor against you or Asta on the BG issue. But we are speaking about HERE. Question: do you not agree with BEHAVIORAL profiling? (aka, not based on ethnicity)

 

If people are acting strangely, have purchased their tickets with cash, don't have luggage, or a return trip, appear stressed when questioned, or give any of a number of the behavior or transactional cues that they might warrant special attention, then it would be fool-hearty to ignore such things, and TBS officials should be well trained and vigilant in such situation (much like the border agent who found the bombs being smuggled in from Canada).

 

But when the Israel system is offered as a model, people really need to know what they are talking about.

 

Bill

[ChrisOR]

I just heard of a pregnant woman who was told to go through the body scanner, while her husband was not forced to. She questioned its safety but her concerns were ignored.

 

In the spring, my husband flew with his 85 year old grandfather, wearing his WWII veteran's cap, who was made to walk without his cane, remove his shoes, belt, suspenders, stand for over 10 minutes while they searched him, patted him down, asked what metal he might still have on or in his person (to which he replied "I don't know, I may have some shrapnel left from WWII.") At the end of all of it, my husband's grandfather was so weak from standing, he couldn't even put his own shoes or belt back on. My husband had to do it for him.

 

The "random" searches are ridiculous ... they are profiling in reverse, picking the most unlikely people just to prove they don't profile.

[Barry Goldwater]

I understand the sense of frustration with the new rules. But is the answer to allow humiliation for "the other" while exempting ourselves? Is that the Golden Rule?

 

What if the TSA decides to "profile" and they (to avoid appearances of being strictly racial/religious) decided to focus on any people associated with activities that included a fair number of extremists and anti-government types? Are you seeing where I'm going here?

 

Homeschoolers. There are certainly more than enough nutters to make homeschoolers a suspect class. You all good with invase questions about your unconventional life-styles? And being segregated out for strip searches Israeli style so the rest of us can pass freely?

 

Bill

 

:lol::lol::lol: OMG...so predictable...:lol::lol::lol: Oh, yes, "Certainly More...":lol:

 

They might terrorize the plane by reciting Paul Revere's Ride from memory...