Amazon controversy

[Greta]

For some of us, a book promoting such a disgusting act is a worthy cause. This doesn't mean there are not many other worthy causes in the world, simply because we choose to fight one. I do not understand why this fact is so foreign to many of you and worthy of mockery. Feel free to purchase away, but I'll draw my lines in the sand where I see fit, and toss back the starfish as I see them, knowing I can't save them all.

 

I've done little to be part of the solution in this world, I admit. I give to charities that are near and dear to my heart, and ones that were important to my grandparents, may their memory be eternal. With my daughter's Girl Scout troop, we go caroling at nursing homes at Christmas, we package food at a local food bank, make scarves and send them to disadvantaged children overseas. It's pitifully little, honestly. We have so much more of our time and money that we could give. What we have done is just a drop in the ocean. There is so much heartache and suffering in the world, that I can see how someone could look at what I've done to make the world a better place and laugh or shake her head in disgust.

 

But. Still. I will continue to try, and I will continue to teach my daughter that even a tiny little bit of good brought into this world counts. Even one act of evil opposed counts.

 

Thanks for sharing the starfish story. I heard it years ago but had forgotten it.

[NanceXToo]

I've done little to be part of the solution in this world, I admit. I give to charities that are near and dear to my heart, and ones that were important to my grandparents, may their memory be eternal. With my daughter's Girl Scout troop, we go caroling at nursing homes at Christmas, we package food at a local food bank, make scarves and send them to disadvantaged children overseas. It's pitifully little, honestly. We have so much more of our time and money that we could give. What we have done is just a drop in the ocean. There is so much heartache and suffering in the world, that I can see how someone could look at what I've done to make the world a better place and laugh or shake her head in disgust.

 

But. Still. I will continue to try, and I will continue to teach my daughter that even a tiny little bit of good brought into this world counts. Even one act of evil opposed counts.

 

Thanks for sharing the starfish story. I heard it years ago but had forgotten it.

 

EXACTLY.

 

I try to give to various charities here and there.

 

I donate blood regularly.

 

I do (and involve my children in) various community service type projects here and there- we've done Earth Day cleanups, we recycle, we've sent care packages to deployed soldiers, my daughter's scout group has visited nursing homes, we do what we can.

 

Is it just a drop in a bucket? Of course. But it's SOMETHING.

 

And so is taking a stance about material like this being so easily provided to the child molesters at large. Maybe easily accessing a book like that would make just one child molester out there who was previously too wary too cross a line, confident enough to cross it. Maybe he'd cross it with my child. Or yours. Or someone I never heard of or met and never will.

 

Regardless, if taking a stance against filth like this and lending your voice to the many others that DID SUCCEED in causing Amazon to drop this book... if that helps even ONE child SOMEWHERE out there NOT be molested?

 

That's freaking fantastic.

 

But to turn around and say "if you're going to do this, or take a stand against that, you should do this, this and that, too" is just being argumentative and unrealistic. Nobody can do it all. And WHY anybody would want to take that stance on an issue like THIS? A how to guide for child molesters of all things? Is just beyond me.

[HRAAB]

I have a good used book store, and a really good used book store, in my general area of town. And I've also purchased old books from ebay and alibris.

 

 

 

 

Amazon's website is not the only one that uses this technique. Barnes & Noble, Borders, and Book Depository all use this same technique on their websites.

 

 

 

I don't own a Kindle. I just plain don't care.

 

I'm not sure why you keep insisting that Amazon is the be all and end all of book stores. It just ain't so.

 

I buy a lot of books (just ask my dh), but I rarely, if ever, buy from Amazon. I got very upset with them some years ago over a book they were selling. Believe me, you can find all the books you'll ever want and not have to send any money to Amazon. I think the only way to make these companies change is to hit them in the wallet. Some things I can overlook. This type of thing I cannot overlook. My conscience won't let me.

[Happy2BaMom]

It's pitifully little, honestly. We have so much more of our time and money that we could give. What we have done is just a drop in the ocean. There is so much heartache and suffering in the world, that I can see how someone could look at what I've done to make the world a better place and laugh or shake her head in disgust.

 

But. Still. I will continue to try, and I will continue to teach my daughter that even a tiny little bit of good brought into this world counts. Even one act of evil opposed counts.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

You said it far better than I ever could. Bless you. You're in my prayers.

 

And I, after reading this thread, have made my last purchase from Amazon.

 

I have fostered children who have been repeatedly raped. They never recover, really. Every effort must be made to stop those who write child pornography or about molestation, publish it, and sell it. We're not talking consenting adults here and tastes in reading material. We're talking true victimization of small human beings too powerless to stop these actions.

[kwickimom]

:001_huh:

 

Seriously, many people do consider such things every day, and as much as we'd love to save the world from all evil by every step we make, it's just not going to happen. However, there is the story of the starfish to consider:

 

 

Once upon a time, there was a wise man who used to go to the ocean to do his writing. He had a habit of walking on the beach before he began his work.

 

 

 

One day, as he was walking along the shore, he looked down the beach and saw a human figure moving like a dancer. He smiled to himself at the thought of someone who would dance to the day, and so, he walked faster to catch up.

 

 

 

As he got closer, he noticed that the figure was that of a young man, and that what he was doing was not dancing at all. The young man was reaching down to the shore, picking up small objects, and throwing them into the ocean.

 

 

 

He came closer still and called out "Good morning! May I ask what it is that you are doing?"

 

 

 

The young man paused, looked up, and replied "Throwing starfish into the ocean."

 

 

 

"I must ask, then, why are you throwing starfish into the ocean?" asked the somewhat startled wise man.

 

 

 

To this, the young man replied, "The sun is up and the tide is going out. If I don't throw them in, they'll die."

 

 

 

Upon hearing this, the wise man commented, "But, young man, do you not realize that there are miles and miles of beach and there are starfish all along every mile? You can't possibly make a difference!"

 

 

 

At this, the young man bent down, picked up yet another starfish, and threw it into the ocean. As it met the water, he said, "It made a difference for that one."

For some of us, a book promoting such a disgusting act is a worthy cause. This doesn't mean there are not many other worthy causes in the world, simply because we choose to fight one. I do not understand why this fact is so foreign to many of you and worthy of mockery. Feel free to purchase away, but I'll draw my lines in the sand where I see fit, and toss back the starfish as I see them, knowing I can't save them all.

 

 

AMEN.

[Greta]

Maybe easily accessing a book like that would make just one child molester out there who was previously too wary too cross a line, confident enough to cross it. Maybe he'd cross it with my child. Or yours. Or someone I never heard of or met and never will.

 

Regardless, if taking a stance against filth like this and lending your voice to the many others that DID SUCCEED in causing Amazon to drop this book... if that helps even ONE child SOMEWHERE out there NOT be molested?

 

That's freaking fantastic.

 

Yes, the stakes are too high to just brush it off.

 

But to turn around and say "if you're going to do this, or take a stand against that, you should do this, this and that, too" is just being argumentative and unrealistic. Nobody can do it all. And WHY anybody would want to take that stance on an issue like THIS? A how to guide for child molesters of all things? Is just beyond me.

 

Agreed.

[Greta]

Bless you. You're in my prayers.

 

Prayers and blessings are always needed and appreciated here. :001_smile: Thank you.

 

I have fostered children who have been repeatedly raped. They never recover, really. Every effort must be made to stop those who write child pornography or about molestation, publish it, and sell it. We're not talking consenting adults here and tastes in reading material. We're talking true victimization of small human beings too powerless to stop these actions.

 

Well said. This isn't about a difference in tastes. It isn't about being adult enough to tolerate something I find questionable, because it is within the realm of other people's valid choices. This is far beyond any of that.

 

It takes a very strong and kind person to foster children, especially those that have been hurt like that or in other abusive ways. I have a friend who does it. She fosters children who have been abused and who have emotional issues. And she is amazing with them. It is incredible to see the way this children change so much, really turn around, after a few months in her home. Some wounds can never be fully healed. But to a child like that, some of them having someone in their life who truly cares about them for the first time, it can make all the difference. You have my respect and appreciation. God bless.

[Greta]

Some things I can overlook. This type of thing I cannot overlook. My conscience won't let me.

 

Yes, that sums it up precisely.

[mcconnellboys]

Half.com has lots of great prices on books!

 

What you mention is what I was trying to get at - if they don't sell things like snuff films, etc. why on earth would they sell anything else that promotes a criminal offense?

[Aubrey]

Just received a reply to my message (requesting a public apology, fwiw):

 

Hello,

 

This book is no longer available for sale.

 

Thank you for your recent inquiry. Did I solve your problem?

 

Since I didn't actually use the name of the book in my email, I know that they a) understood what I was talking about & b) did not address my request at all.

 

I really, really want to keep shopping at Amazon. It's fun, cheap, & convenient. Darn it. I knew it was a long shot that they'd suddenly release a public statement saying something like,

Oh my gosh, what were we thinking, we're SO sorry. We recognize that we've caused immense pain & looked like perverse idiots while doing it. Please, please forgive us. We've turned the author in to the police, & we ourselves are undergoing counseling for the incredible lack of judgment we've shown.

 

But it was worth a try. :tongue_smilie:

[GnomeyNewt]

Amazon is one of the top places I buy from. I live in the same state as their HQ and everything gets to me within 2 days, even with free shipping. I am saddened by their response to the issue when the story first broke.

 

I am glad that it has now been removed, but I have heard that it is still available on other countries websites (I can't confirm this).

 

I will take nothing less than an apology, plus what they plan to say/do about it in the future. I am patiently awaiting this and in the meantime, I will not do business with them.

[trisharog]

Ugh! I never come over to this board..I spend way too much time on the curriculum board. Now the one time I am over here, my conscience is pricked and I have to rethink where I buy gazillions of books not to mention clothes etc.

 

People mentioned other websites such as half.com and BN. How do you know if this is just one book that has been highlighted or if a company such as BN or 1/2 sell illegal filth?

 

Who would be the best alternative company. Ugh..so sad

[justamouse]

OK, I'm going to try this again.

 

There are authors that write ONLY for Kindle and make ALL of their $ from Kindle.

 

AND, if you really want to support authors, buy E books. Why? Because authors only receive 2% off that paper book you bought. They might sell out their printings, but those books are far and few between. If they have a kindle copy, the author may get anywhere from 25% to 70%. In other words, They can actually make a LIVING off of kindle sales whereas they can't off of paper books. Most authors have day jobs or bust their rears to be diversified (in genre and platform) and write two to three 350 word books a year (some authors can crank out 6 books a year. Don't ask me how, I don't know that secret code). That SEEMS like a problem everyone wants to have, but it's not. It's an insane pace. If you buy e books, and kindle editions which you can only get at amazon, you are actually putting money into an author's pocket and supporting them.

 

Boycott the author, not Amazon.

Edited November 12, 2010 by justamouse
schpelling

[keptwoman]

OK, I'm going to try this again.

 

There are authors that write ONLY for Kindle and make ALL of their $ from Kindle.

 

AND, if you really want to support authors, buy E books. Why? Because authors only receive 2% off that paper book you bought. They might sell out their printings, but those books are far and few between. If they have a kindle copy, the author may get anywhere from 25% to 70%. In other words, They can actually make a LIVING off of kindle sales whereas they can't off of paper books. Most authors have day jobs or bust their rears to be diversified (in genre and platform) and write two to three 350 word books a year (some authors can crank out 6 books a year. Don't ask me how, I don't know that secret code). That SEEMS like a problem everyone wants to have, but it's not. It's an insane pace. If you buy e books, and kindle editions which you can only get at amazon, you are actually putting money into an author's pocket and supporting them.

 

Boycott the author, not Amazon.

 

Perhaps the authors should look at getting their books published through iBooks etc. Amazon is supporting (by assisting in publication) an author who writes filth that is so disgusting it defies belief. For that support, they get my boycott. I'm sorry for the authors on Kindle exclusively, but my money goes to companies I choose to spend it with, and I don't choose to spend it with companies which support repugnant behaviour. I will not be disuaded from this, much as I'm sorry for the affected authors.

[Rhonda in TX]

There are authors that write ONLY for Kindle and make ALL of their $ from Kindle.

 

So they'll now also start marketing for Nook, or a different e-reader.

 

You should never put all your eggs in one basket and it ridiculous to expect readers to cater to that. What about all the people who buy Nooks, or other e-readers? Do you hold that against them?

 

I don't own a Kindle and have no plans to buy one (or any other type of e-reader), so I guess I don't need to worry about this concern that you have.

[asta]

So, let me get this straight - everyone wants to boycott Amazon NOW because they were selling a "how to" book for pedophiles, but there wasn't a peep to be heard before when they were "just" selling:

 

*Penthouse Letters compilations, Pornography Magazine Subscriptions, et al

*Pretty much any kind of erotica you wanted (homosexual, heterosexual, transgender)

*Guides to masturbation

*Manuals on dominance and submission (not talking biblical here...)

 

With all of the hand flapping and running in circles I see on this board about "this being against god's will" and "that being against god's will" - I would have thought most of the major bookstores would have been banned here long since. A pedophile isn't going to stop being a pedophile because they can't order from Amazon.

 

And consumers have the right to dictate to the seller what is satisfactory and what isn't. It doesn't even matter if boycotts are universally and fairly applied. When consumers are upset about something, businesses are right to answer carefully and wisely.

 

In this case, I think Amazon overstepped its bounds enough to discover that perhaps the more "prudish" consumers are more than just a blip on its screen.

 

I can understand allowing adult and even shocking material to stand uncensored; I cannot understand allowing material to stand that promotes the abuse of children. Whether you think boycotts work or not, my conscience doesn't allow me to support companies who behave in such an egregious fashion.

 

Amazon already does: they sell the Pearl's books.

 

 

 

(JMO - I buy from Alibris)

 

 

a

Edited November 12, 2010 by asta

[keptwoman]

So, let me get this straight - everyone wants to boycott Amazon NOW because they were selling a "how to" book for pedophiles, but there wasn't a peep to be heard before when they were "just" selling:

 

*Penthouse Letters compilations, Pornography Magazine Subscriptions, et al

*Pretty much any kind of erotica you wanted (homosexual, heterosexual, transgender)

*Guides to masturbation

*Manuals on dominance and submission (not talking biblical here...)

 

With all of the hand flapping and running in circles I see on this board about "this being against god's will" and "that being against god's will" - I would have thought most of the major bookstores would have been banned here long since. A pedophile isn't going to stop being a pedophile because they can't order from Amazon.

a

Well I'm not Christian and to me there is no comparison between pornography (much as I choose not to purchase/use these myself) and pedophilia material. All the ones you mentioned are between two consenting adults. Are you seriously telling me they are on the same level to you?

[asta]

Are you seriously telling me they are on the same level to you?

 

I'm saying that, if someone is going to be morally outraged that Amazon is "selling smut", they should be outraged about everything that society normally would consider to fall beneath the "smut umbrella".

 

Additionally, if someone is concerned with the fact that this particular book deals with children (specifically, harming children, and more specifically, illegally harming children), then said moral outrage should be directed at ALL texts that advocate harming children - whatever the original motivation.

 

I personally find the Pearl's and whomever writes tomes such as this book equally sick and twisted.

 

 

a

[MelanieM]

Additionally, if someone is concerned with the fact that this particular book deals with children (specifically, harming children, and more specifically, illegally harming children), then said moral outrage should be directed at ALL texts that advocate harming children - whatever the original motivation.

 

I personally find the Pearl's and whomever writes tomes such as this book equally sick and twisted.

 

 

a

 

Along these lines, if it's a matter of whether or not the act is illegal, then I think Canadians should consider boycotting Amazon.ca and Chapters.ca as both sites carry To Train Up a Child which advocates for hitting children under two years of age (illegal here) and for hitting children with things other than your hand (also illegal).

[delaney]

On a side note I had this conspiracy dream last night and I am not so sure that it couldn't be true!

The government hires a convicted pedophile to write the book, markets it for money on the biggest website there is, then tracks purchases to narrow down their list of who to look at! Literally no footwork to compile a list of potential suspects!

[pdalley]

Perhaps the authors should look at getting their books published through iBooks etc. Amazon is supporting (by assisting in publication) an author who writes filth that is so disgusting it defies belief. For that support, they get my boycott. I'm sorry for the authors on Kindle exclusively, but my money goes to companies I choose to spend it with, and I don't choose to spend it with companies which support repugnant behaviour. I will not be disuaded from this, much as I'm sorry for the affected authors.

 

:iagree: I would find another outlet for my ebooks. I wouldn't want my book published alongside a how to manual for evil perverts.

 

There is iBooks and also Nookbook format. TWTM is in both Kindle and Nookbook format.

 

And IMO Amazon looks really strange for going to bat for scum like this author and claiming he has the right to an outlet for his book yet they won't sell any form of legal p___.

 

Nope, no more Amazon here. Plus the 300 plus members of my church, plus the 4,000 plus on the facebook page, plus a lot of people on this board....

 

That's a lot of money for Amazon to lose based on one 5.00 book detailing how to get away with hurting children.

[NanceXToo]

OK, I'm going to try this again.

 

There are authors that write ONLY for Kindle and make ALL of their $ from Kindle.

 

AND, if you really want to support authors, buy E books. Why? Because authors only receive 2% off that paper book you bought. They might sell out their printings, but those books are far and few between. If they have a kindle copy, the author may get anywhere from 25% to 70%. In other words, They can actually make a LIVING off of kindle sales whereas they can't off of paper books. Most authors have day jobs or bust their rears to be diversified (in genre and platform) and write two to three 350 word books a year (some authors can crank out 6 books a year. Don't ask me how, I don't know that secret code). That SEEMS like a problem everyone wants to have, but it's not. It's an insane pace. If you buy e books, and kindle editions which you can only get at amazon, you are actually putting money into an author's pocket and supporting them.

 

Boycott the author, not Amazon.

 

1) The authors can look into publishing elsewhere. Maybe THEY should take a stance when it comes to Amazon selling a how to be a better child molester type book too, and do business with someone else.

 

2) boycotting the author wouldn't have gotten the book removed from Amazon. The book being available on Amazon- available to CHILD MOLESTERS- was dangerous. Sure all of us "normal" people could "boycott the author, not Amazon." But the people who wanted to USE a "guide for pedophiles" would certainly not be boycotting the author- they'd be thankful that Amazon offered such a service, they'd be buying the book, and maybe they'd be learning how to cross a line with a child that they might not have been confident enough to cross before.

 

3) It's not my responsibility to make sure that some authors on Kindle can make a living there. It's my responsibility to make my child's environment as safe as possible. Not having books available to the mainstream public (and by default easily available to every child molester out there) that were written for the purpose of telling them how to be a better pedophile does not make my child's environment safe.

 

I still don't get why you care about this issue so much. But, really, is it relevant now? The "people" have spoken, and it worked. Amazon dropped the book. Many of those "people" will now go back to shopping there. Some won't... but that's their business.

[NanceXToo]

So, let me get this straight - everyone wants to boycott Amazon NOW because they were selling a "how to" book for pedophiles, but there wasn't a peep to be heard before when they were "just" selling:

 

*Penthouse Letters compilations, Pornography Magazine Subscriptions, et al

*Pretty much any kind of erotica you wanted (homosexual, heterosexual, transgender)

*Guides to masturbation

*Manuals on dominance and submission (not talking biblical here...)

 

 

Uh... Yeah? I have nothing against pornography, homosexuality, masturbation, rough sex, or anything else that goes on between CONSENTING ADULTS.

 

But sexual acts with CHILDREN? Uh yes, I have a problem with that.

 

And I'm NOT seeing the comparison.

[justamouse]

First, the ibook suggestion...

 

 

....just forget it. I guess you have no idea unless you've written a book and have to make these decisions. Armchair quarterbacking and all that.

 

 

With all of the hand flapping and running in circles I see on this board about "this being against god's will" and "that being against god's will" - I would have thought most of the major bookstores would have been banned here long since. A pedophile isn't going to stop being a pedophile because they can't order from Amazon.

 

 

 

 

(JMO - I buy from Alibris)

 

 

a

 

 

I *heart* you.

[kwickimom]

So, let me get this straight - everyone wants to boycott Amazon NOW because they were selling a "how to" book for pedophiles, but there wasn't a peep to be heard before when they were "just" selling:

 

*Penthouse Letters compilations, Pornography Magazine Subscriptions, et al

*Pretty much any kind of erotica you wanted (homosexual, heterosexual, transgender)

*Guides to masturbation

*Manuals on dominance and submission (not talking biblical here...)

 

With all of the hand flapping and running in circles I see on this board about "this being against god's will" and "that being against god's will" - I would have thought most of the major bookstores would have been banned here long since. A pedophile isn't going to stop being a pedophile because they can't order from Amazon.

 

 

 

Amazon already does: they sell the Pearl's books.

 

 

 

(JMO - I buy from Alibris)

 

 

a

 

 

ARE YOU SERIOUS????

 

R*ping a child is in no way, shape or form ANYTHING like an adult buying porn, and definitely has nothing to do with masturbation. I am against many things like porn and homosexuality. These things are LEGAL and a choice. NOT a crime or a violent act against an INNOCENT child that will do serious harm to them for life.

 

We need to protect our children and I cannot understand for the life of me why you are so against people trying to save a child. You would rather argue about authors not getting their money???????????? purely ridicuous IMO.

[lionfamily1999]

The "people" have spoken, and it worked. Amazon dropped the book. Many of those "people" will now go back to shopping there. Some won't... but that's their business.

That's a relief. I've never been so happy to come late to a thread.

[clementine]

......to me there is no comparison between pornography (much as I choose not to purchase/use these myself) and pedophilia material. All the ones you mentioned are between two consenting adults. Are you seriously telling me they are on the same level to you?

 

:iagree::iagree: Big difference!!!

[katemary63]

I just closed my account. If I hear that certain people are fired over this, I may open it again.

[Mom-ninja.]

Asta, those topics you listed do not in any way compare to sexual abuse against children. Not at all.

[Debbie in OR]

ARE YOU SERIOUS????

 

R*ping a child is in no way, shape or form ANYTHING like an adult buying porn, and definitely has nothing to do with masturbation. I am against many things like porn and homosexuality. These things are LEGAL and a choice. NOT a crime or a violent act against an INNOCENT child that will do serious harm to them for life.

 

We need to protect our children and I cannot understand for the life of me why you are so against people trying to save a child. You would rather argue about authors not getting their money???????????? purely ridicuous IMO.

 

I was thinking something very similar....

[pdalley]

First, the ibook suggestion...

 

 

....just forget it. I guess you have no idea unless you've written a book and have to make these decisions. Armchair quarterbacking and all that.

 

 

.

 

Not any worse than trying to dictate my comfort levels, thanks.

 

Sorry, I refuse to buy from a store than sanctions a book that details how to break laws and get away with it when it comes to harming children.

 

This isn't a religious issue with me. This is a common decency issue. You don't get lower than child molestation as far as I'm concerned. And I'm the one who has to live in my head and I couldn't if I knew I was contributing to a company that was aiding and abetting child molestation.

 

I'm the one who has to see the face of Shaniya Davis and wonder if some other child might be harmed in that manner because I'm contributing to a storefront that allows a how to manual on how to get away with child rape to be sold. If one can live with that - fine. I don't care. That's not my head. I don't live there.

 

But this is beyond religion. This is beyond prudish. The book is detailing illegal activity and the most vile perverted illegal activity at that.

[sparrow]

So, let me get this straight - everyone wants to boycott Amazon NOW because they were selling a "how to" book for pedophiles, but there wasn't a peep to be heard before when they were "just" selling:

 

*Penthouse Letters compilations, Pornography Magazine Subscriptions, et al

*Pretty much any kind of erotica you wanted (homosexual, heterosexual, transgender)

*Guides to masturbation

*Manuals on dominance and submission (not talking biblical here...)

 

With all of the hand flapping and running in circles I see on this board about "this being against god's will" and "that being against god's will" - I would have thought most of the major bookstores would have been banned here long since. A pedophile isn't going to stop being a pedophile because they can't order from Amazon.

 

 

 

Amazon already does: they sell the Pearl's books.

 

 

 

(JMO - I buy from Alibris)

 

 

a

 

 

:001_huh: Wow. Child rape is not comparable to what may transpire among consenting adults. NOT. EVEN. CLOSE.

 

 

Uh... Yeah? I have nothing against pornography, homosexuality, masturbation, rough sex, or anything else that goes on between CONSENTING ADULTS.

 

But sexual acts with CHILDREN? Uh yes, I have a problem with that.

 

And I'm NOT seeing the comparison.

 

:iagree:100%

[lionfamily1999]

:001_huh: Wow. Child rape is not comparable to what may transpire among consenting adults. NOT. EVEN. CLOSE.

 

 

It depends on your perspective. If, for instance, you said that they should not sell the pedophile book because it is an afront against God, then you should include all the other immoral books they sell.

 

If, however, your stance is purely, this is unacceptable because it poses a threat against our children and gives clues on how to get away with an illegal act, then those other things do not matter.

 

ETA, having finally read Asta's original post. If this is unacceptable because it promotes an abuse of children, then the same hoopla should have been risen when they started selling the Pearl's books (which many here would say is encouraging and teaching child abuse).

[asta]

It depends on your perspective. If, for instance, you said that they should not sell the pedophile book because it is an afront against God, then you should include all the other immoral books they sell.

 

If, however, your stance is purely, this is unacceptable because it poses a threat against our children and gives clues on how to get away with an illegal act, then those other things do not matter.

 

ETA, having finally read Asta's original post. If this is unacceptable because it promotes an abuse of children, then the same hoopla should have been risen when they started selling the Pearl's books (which many here would say is encouraging and teaching child abuse).

 

That would be what I was sayin'...

[sparrow]

It depends on your perspective. If, for instance, you said that they should not sell the pedophile book because it is an afront against God, then you should include all the other immoral books they sell.

 

If, however, your stance is purely, this is unacceptable because it poses a threat against our children and gives clues on how to get away with an illegal act, then those other things do not matter.

 

ETA, having finally read Asta's original post. If this is unacceptable because it promotes an abuse of children, then the same hoopla should have been risen when they started selling the Pearl's books (which many here would say is encouraging and teaching child abuse).

 

 

Yes, I get that. I fall in the latter camp. Who are "the Pearl's"? Believe it, or not, I haven't had the opportunity to read every book that Amazon sells. I am sure there are other unsavory books on Amazon that would entice me to boycott them. *This* particular book happened to be brought to my attention by the media. I hadn't recently done a search on "pedophilia" to find it :glare:.

[Greta]

So, let me get this straight - everyone wants to boycott Amazon NOW because they were selling a "how to" book for pedophiles, but there wasn't a peep to be heard before when they were "just" selling:

 

*Penthouse Letters compilations, Pornography Magazine Subscriptions, et al

*Pretty much any kind of erotica you wanted (homosexual, heterosexual, transgender)

*Guides to masturbation

*Manuals on dominance and submission (not talking biblical here...)

 

Simple answer. None of us are putting sexual acts between consenting adults in the same category as molesting innocent and non-consenting children. Only you are.

 

Amazon already does: they sell the Pearl's books.

 

Good point. I wrote a scathing review of that book to try to discourage people from buying it. And I wrote Amazon a letter encouraging them to please drop the book. But this was a couple of years ago now. They still sell the book and I have still been shopping with them. As horrid as the Pearls are, they did not seem as shocking or disgusting to me as a man who would openly advocate molesting children, and instruct people to do it in ways that would result in lighter sentences if they get caught. Both are pretty bad, but the pedophile is just so far outside of my realm of comprehension and tolerance that it provoked me to more serious action.

[Greta]

OK, I'm going to try this again.

 

There are authors that write ONLY for Kindle and make ALL of their $ from Kindle.

 

Okay, I'll try once more as well. Lots of people out there make lots of products and offer lots of services that I have no interest in purchasing. I realize that is how they make their living, but I am simply not capable of financially supporting everyone who is trying to make a living, and I have no intention of wasting my limited income on products I don't want or need. My husband bought me an iPad for mother's day this year. Any e-books I buy are going to be in that format. I don't own a Kindle. I have no intention of owning a Kindle. I wish Kindle authors all the best, but since I was not going to buy their products anyway, this is no reason not to boycott Amazon.

[asta]

:: facepalm ::

 

it hadn't even occurred to me that people wouldn't equate a parent "beating their child into submission" as a means of "love" with an adult who views having sex with a child as an acceptable form of physical intimacy.

 

Stupid, stupid me.

[NanceXToo]

Yes, I get that. I fall in the latter camp. Who are "the Pearl's"? Believe it, or not, I haven't had the opportunity to read every book that Amazon sells. I am sure there are other unsavory books on Amazon that would entice me to boycott them. *This* particular book happened to be brought to my attention by the media. I hadn't recently done a search on "pedophilia" to find it :glare:.

 

I DO know who the Pearls are and they DO make me sick. Truthfully, I was not even aware that Amazon carried that book (or some of the others that recent events have brought to light).

 

Like Sparrow said, I haven't had the opportunity to read every book that Amazon sells.

 

When I go on Amazon, it's to search for a VERY specific book that I want/need.

 

Then recommendations are made for me based on the books I've searched and/or purchased.

 

Until all this stuff about the pedophile guide came to light, it never crossed my mind to wonder what types of things Amazon was selling that I HADN'T been looking for.

 

If someone had told me Amazon had a porn section, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. I couldn't care less if adults want to buy porn depicting things that go on between consenting adults.

 

It wasn't until somebody told me that Amazon was selling a how to guide for pedophiles that I got upset.

 

And I said that I would not buy from Amazon again unless they dropped that book.

 

They dropped the book- but you know what? I probably STILL won't use Amazon again regardless because now I've found out that they also were willing (at least temporarily) to sell a video game that promoted raping a mother and her daughters, that they were and presumably still are willing to sell the Pearls' book on how to beat your babies, they're still carrying that other 2002 title mentioned herein that also pertains to pedophiles, and other things I've heard in the past couple of days that I found really disturbing.

 

My stance on the pedophile book but not other horrid books like those wasn't being a hypocrite. It was being uninformed. Asta, I agree with you on the Pearls thing being comparable as I do consider that child abuse promotion as well. I still DISagree with you on the other things (i.e. homosexuality, porn, masturbation and so on).

Edited November 12, 2010 by NanceXToo

[hillfarm]

Amazon is not a publisher, merely a seller. They make choices every day to determine which things they will carry. Someone there approved offering the book in question. As I have repeatedly told my 12yo dd, actions have consequences. Amazon chooses to offer such materials, which is within their rights, I have an equal right to choose to take my business elsewhere.

 

This is not the first time I have become familiar with them making unwise choices of what to offer. During the swine flu scare, there were some offerings of hand sanitizer at over 10 times the regular price. I reported it to the Federal Trade Commission. Price gouging in times of emergency is illegal, whether at the local gas station or local book/stuff store.

 

Although Amazon responded by eventually removing both questionable offerings, the fact that sticks with me is that they made the decision to offer them in the first place. I don't like doing business with companies that have a track record of skating so close to the edge of illegal activity.

[Spy Car]

Amazon is not a publisher, merely a seller.

 

In this age of e-books do you think that line gets a little blurry, especially when it come to "self-publishers" who distribute through Amazon, as in the case here?

 

Bill

[Greta]

:: facepalm ::

 

it hadn't even occurred to me that people wouldn't equate a parent "beating their child into submission" as a means of "love" with an adult who views having sex with a child as an acceptable form of physical intimacy.

 

Stupid, stupid me.

 

I did respond in both cases, as I said. Both are inexcusable. Both are harmful and destructive. But I admit that one caused a more visceral and extreme reaction for me than the other did. Maybe that was wrong of me. Maybe I can't logically explain it. Maybe it is just because I personally know people who have been affected by one, but not the other, and so one "hits home" more than the other, even though it shouldn't. But there it is, and I admit it. I will mention *both* books in my letter to Amazon. As I said, I complained about TTUAC to them before, and now we have an established pattern of them carrying books which advocate harming children, so that's an even more powerful argument for a boycott. Maybe you see it as too little too late, and maybe you're right. To me, it's better late than never, because that is all I can do at this point.

Edited November 12, 2010 by GretaLynne
grammar

[pdalley]

I DO know who the Pearls are and they DO make me sick. Truthfully, I was not even aware that Amazon carried that book (or some of the others that recent events have brought to light).

 

Like Sparrow said, I haven't had the opportunity to read every book that Amazon sells.

 

When I go on Amazon, it's to search for a VERY specific book that I want/need.

 

Then recommendations are made for me based on the books I've searched and/or purchased.

 

Until all this stuff about the pedophile guide came to light, it never crossed my mind to wonder what types of things Amazon was selling that I HADN'T been looking for.

 

If someone had told me Amazon had a porn section, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. I couldn't care less if adults want to buy porn depicting things that go on between consenting adults.

 

It wasn't until somebody told me that Amazon was selling a how to guide for pedophiles that I got upset.

 

And I said that I would not buy from Amazon again unless they dropped that book.

 

They dropped the book- but you know what? I probably STILL won't use Amazon again regardless because now I've found out that they also were willing (at least temporarily) to sell a video game that promoted raping a mother and her daughters, that they were and presumably still are willing to sell the Pearls' book on how to beat your babies, they're still carrying that other 2002 title mentioned herein that also pertains to pedophiles, and other things I've heard in the past couple of days that I found really disturbing.

 

My stance on the pedophile book but not other horrid books like those wasn't being a hypocrite. It was being uninformed. Asta, I agree with you on the Pearls thing being comparable as I do consider that child abuse promotion as well. I still DISagree with you on the other things (i.e. homosexuality, porn, masturbation and so on).

 

 

:iagree:I had no idea they carried The Pearls. I know who they are - could not disagree with them more on their child rearing philosophy so I do not seek them out. Now that I'm aware Amazon also sells their books this gives me yet another reason why I will not do further business with them. Child abuse is also illegal and I equate the way discipline is used in those books as abuse.

 

Their judgment in what to sell is suspect and since they pick and choose what bad things they will and will not sell they can't blame it on a blanket policy. Goodbye Amazon.

[lionfamily1999]

That would be what I was sayin'...

What can I say? I actually understood what you were going for, woohoo me :p

Yes, I get that. I fall in the latter camp. Who are "the Pearl's"? Believe it, or not, I haven't had the opportunity to read every book that Amazon sells. I am sure there are other unsavory books on Amazon that would entice me to boycott them. *This* particular book happened to be brought to my attention by the media. I hadn't recently done a search on "pedophilia" to find it :glare:.

Re "the Pearls" it's a can of worms that is not worth opening. First of all, you'll hate them (I know this, I'm psychic like that). Second of all, not everyone does and those that don't are probably tired of that horse being beaten.

 

I just wanted people to see that Asta was NOT equating homosexuality or pornography with pedophilia. She was making the point to those that decried this book because it was against God's will that there is a lot more to dislike on Amazon alongside that book. She was making a point to those that pointed out that this book teaches abuse against children that the Pearls (trust me on this, you would hate them) are sold on Amazon, without the hurrahs and cries for boycotting.

 

The point is if we're all climbing onto moral high horses, then we should actually look beyond this ONE book and look at the other things that Amazon has to offer. Like another poster mentioned, no one here does searches on 'how to be a pedophile.' That's understandable, BUT perhaps we should. Perhaps we should be more careful where we spend our money, perhaps we should start RESEARCHING these things BEFORE the s--- hits the fan.

 

Apparently Asta did, she doesn't shop at Amazon.

[Greta]

I just wanted people to see that Asta was NOT equating homosexuality or pornography with pedophilia. She was making the point to those that decried this book because it was against God's will that there is a lot more to dislike on Amazon alongside that book.

 

I still really don't get the argument, though. I am a religious person, and I'm sure that much of what Amazon sells would be objectionable to me personally on religious grounds. So what? I recognize the rights of other people to follow Christian standards or not as they choose. But this book has tremendous potential to result in children having their rights taken away from them by a predator. See the difference? Amazon making it easier for adults to choose to commit sin of their own free will is one thing. Them making it easier for children to have their rights violated, to have their choices taken away from them - that's just not even in the same ball park. So I still don't see why the two are being lumped together.

 

The point is if we're all climbing onto moral high horses, then we should actually look beyond this ONE book and look at the other things that Amazon has to offer. Like another poster mentioned, no one here does searches on 'how to be a pedophile.' That's understandable, BUT perhaps we should. Perhaps we should be more careful where we spend our money, perhaps we should start RESEARCHING these things BEFORE the s--- hits the fan.

 

Well, someone DID do the research, and spread the information to those who hadn't. Why is that a bad thing? Maybe all of the attention drawn to this one book will result in people taking stock about other horrible things Amazon carries like the Pearls and making a more educated shopping decision. Why is that a bad thing?

 

Not directed to you, lionfam, but I think I need to stop checking this thread. I'm having a really hard time understanding why people are so upset by this boycott. I never would have imagined that taking a stand against a book encouraging the molestation of children would have resulted in being accused of being holier-than-thou and self-righteous and hypocritical. Gosh, sometimes you really can't win. :sad:

[lionfamily1999]

:: facepalm ::

 

it hadn't even occurred to me that people wouldn't equate a parent "beating their child into submission" as a means of "love" with an adult who views having sex with a child as an acceptable form of physical intimacy.

 

Stupid, stupid me.

Now you know Asta, go sit in a corner and ruminate on it.

I still really don't get the argument, though. I am a religious person, and I'm sure that much of what Amazon sells would be objectionable to me personally on religious grounds. So what? I recognize the rights of other people to follow Christian standards or not as they choose. But this book has tremendous potential to result in children having their rights taken away from them by a predator. See the difference? Amazon making it easier for adults to choose to commit sin of their own free will is one thing. Them making it easier for children to have their rights violated, to have their choices taken away from them - that's just not even in the same ball park. So I still don't see why the two are being lumped together.

 

If you're blasting the book because it is an affront to God, then there are plenty of other books available on Amazon that are an affront to God. You aren't, though, are you? You're blasting the book because it goes to far or whatever, right? Then that doesn't apply to you, does it? You're looking at this book and its secular implications, regarding secular laws, right?

 

However, if your dislike of this book was based on how it flew in the face of God, then you should extend that dislike to all the other books that Amazon sells that do the same thing.

Well, someone DID do the research, and spread the information to those who hadn't. Why is that a bad thing? Maybe all of the attention drawn to this one book will result in people taking stock about other horrible things Amazon carries like the Pearls and making a more educated shopping decision. Why is that a bad thing?

 

Not directed to you, lionfam, but I think I need to stop checking this thread. I'm having a really hard time understanding why people are so upset by this boycott. I never would have imagined that taking a stand against a book encouraging the molestation of children would have resulted in being accused of being holier-than-thou and self-righteous and hypocritical. Gosh, sometimes you really can't win. :sad:

I'm not saying it is a bad thing, what I am saying is that we need to stop sitting on our butts and letting things like this 'pop up out of nowhere.'

 

I'm not upset about the boycott, I think it was a great thing. I think it's WONDERFUL that the book was removed. I also agree with what I believe Asta was implying. If we allow our outrage to die because this one book was over and we go back to trusting Amazon to have our best interests (or God's or our children's) then the boycott was hardly worth anything at all.

 

ETA, if those concerned about the sorts of books being sold let this rest then it would be the equivalent of the bus driver letting Parks ride wherever she wanted (but not changing their policies) and everyone calling it good.

Edited November 12, 2010 by lionfamily1999

[keptwoman]

First, the ibook suggestion...

 

 

....just forget it. I guess you have no idea unless you've written a book and have to make these decisions. Armchair quarterbacking and all that.

 

 

 

 

I *heart* you.

?? You are getting angry because people are boycotting Amazon, then you heart someone who doesn't buy from them because of other stuff they sell? (well that's the way I read Asta's post)

[keptwoman]

I'm not upset about the boycott, I think it was a great thing. I think it's WONDERFUL that the book was removed. I also agree with what I believe Asta was implying. If we allow our outrage to die because this one book was over and we go back to trusting Amazon to have our best interests (or God's or our children's) then the boycott was hardly worth anything at all.

:iagree:

I'm just trying to work out how to close my Amazon account.

[Aubrey]

I've been holding out--hoping for a public apology. It looks unlikely at best:

 

Here's where they apologized for remote-deleting copies of 1984 (that, I believe, were illegally downloaded):

http://www.fsf.org/news/amazon-apologizes

 

Here's where they apologized for miscategorizing over 50,000 books, incl some gay & lesbian titles:

http://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-reverses-course-apologizes-for-embarrassing-and-ham-fisted-gay-book-blacklist-2009-4

 

Both apologies were praised for being quick & self-effacing.

 

Looks like the tie between the kindle & the nook has really, truly been broken. But my sis, bro, & I just gave Mom a kindle for her b'day a few weeks ago, & I *don't* have the heart to tell her!

[Elizabeth in MN]

I am truly struggling with the question of supporting Amazon anymore. Between their late response to the pedophelia book and the whole GLBT book debacle I wonder how much of this is really just a mistake. I have been a customer of their for maybe fifteen years and this is just plain wrong.