Classical Conversations--conservative bias?

[Dreamdog]

Hi,

 

I just read an old thread about Classical Conversations for a non-Christian family. My question is slightly different. A local group is starting near me, and I was pretty enthusiastic until I saw some of the sample flashcards in the CC store.

 

In response to the prompt, "Tell me about the end of the Cold War," one card says, "In the 1980s, British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and U.S. President Ronald Reagan worked together to end the Cold War, lessen big government, and strengthen the conservative movement."

 

This is skewed in a way that is diametrically opposed to our family's political leanings (and my memory of the time--I spent years in the UK during Thatcher's time in office). While I appreciate that it is extremely difficult to present history--especially in bite-sized pieces--in any kind of objective way, is there a lot of that sort of "Go, heroes of the conservative movement" cheerleading?

 

Thanks!

 

Amanda

[lauracolumbus]

You came across what I would consider the most conservative card there is. In fact I was rather shocked that the program would be that blatantly conservative. However, I do believe that there is a mildly conservative bent throughout most of the curriculum despite some obvious attempts to remain neutral. We're conservative, so it works for us.

[katilac]

While I appreciate that it is extremely difficult to present history--especially in bite-sized pieces--in any kind of objective way, is there a lot of that sort of "Go, heroes of the conservative movement" cheerleading? Amanda

 

I would imagine there is; it is not a secular program, but one that clearly states its intent to help parents teach a Biblically-based worldview.

[Dreamdog]

We are Christians, just not conservatives when it comes to politics.

 

Laura, thanks for letting me know that the card I saw is not entirely typical; as I said, it's hard to be neutral about history (especially recent history), so I generally expect a bias one way or the other, but that card just seemed over-the-top.

[imhim]

If it wasn't for Thatcher and President Ronald Reagan who knows when and if I would be out today from that awful communist country I was born in. Thank God for them.

[Debbie in OR]

Although my guess would be that CC leans conservative (although that is truly a guess...I have no idea), I read that as a statement of fact, not an attempt to sway one's politics or to assess it as "what they did was good" or "what they did was bad."

 

That was exactly what happened during RR's terms as President: he and Thatcher did work together to end the Cold War; RR and Thatcher both wanted to lessen big government and strengthen the conservative movement. To write anything else about their impact on history would be inaccurate.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Debbie in OR

[Dreamdog]

Hey, folks, I didn't want this to turn into a political debate and won't post further.

 

I would not have had a problem with the question card if it had asked about the impact of the two leaders.

 

Thanks for your thoughts,

 

Amanda

[Smithie]

In my area, CC teaches that the earth is 6,000 years old and that "tremendous pressure" makes rocks seem older than they really are. And this was in a "Science" tutorial!!!! It's appalling.

 

BUT, I know people who are doing CC in other areas of the country, and they've dealt with no such craziness and really love what the pedagogical approach is doing for their kids. I think it very much depends on the outlook and worldview of the people running the individual franchise.

[Superfly]

I don't know anything about CC, but in regards to the answer card the OP presented: my college level Foreign Policy class(in a very liberal area) presented that information in the exact same manner. It was presented as a statement of fact, not as a means of swaying any opinion.

[kalanamak]

In my area, CC teaches that the earth is 6,000 years old and that "tremendous pressure" makes rocks seem older than they really are.

 

:lol: So that is what is happening to my face!!

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I suspect that you are misunderstanding the card or history.

 

The card asks about the end of the Cold War, not Reagan or Thatcher's domestic policies, not collapse of the Soviet Union, not the end of communism in Eastern Europe...

 

Nor did the card do anything but present some of their common objectives as fact. And those common objectives brought about the end of the Cold War. It does ask about their impact as leaders, just in a backward way by putting the results as the question rather than the answer.

 

Also-it is my understanding that in programs like CC the fact represented on the flash cards is one important fact as relates to that moment in history (or any other topic) that is intended to trigger your memory and allow you to then bring in other facts, assessments and pertinent information about the topic. It is not necessarily the one and only fact you should know about a topic.

 

I have never been a participant in CC but I do know that it is very difficult to pull one tool from a curriculum and try to assess that program without knowing how that tool is actually used. Especially when it is a tool designed for group use and in light of a much broader context.

[Guest CarolineUK]

:lol: So that is what is happening to my face!!

 

:lol:

 

Oh, you made laugh! I had to read it twice before I realised what you meant. Same here too :D.

[kalanamak]

I don't know anything about CC, but in regards to the answer card the OP presented: my college level Foreign Policy class(in a very liberal area) presented that information in the exact same manner. It was presented as a statement of fact, not as a means of swaying any opinion.

 

 

And the end of the Cold War and smaller government is linked in series in a sentence because.....

 

(I'm trying to see how they are so closely linked.)

[Superfly]

And the end of the Cold War and smaller government is linked in series in a sentence because.....

 

(I'm trying to see how they are so closely linked.)

 

I just want to mention again that I can't speak to the agenda of CC.

 

My class was a study of foriegn policy and its impact. The agenda of the Reagan admin was to end communism because it opposes capitalism. Ending the Cold War was a part of a larger movement towards conservative capitalist values. Free markets mean less government, less regulation of import/exports, etc. So yes, the two are linked in terms of policy and outcomes.

[kalanamak]

I just want to mention again that I can't speak to the agenda of CC.

 

My class was a study of foriegn policy and its impact. The agenda of the Reagan admin was to end communism because it opposes capitalism. Ending the Cold War was a part of a larger movement towards conservative capitalist values. Free markets mean less government, less regulation of import/exports, etc. So yes, the two are linked in terms of policy and outcomes.

 

A bit subtle for a 14 year old, unless this was not their first time around on the subject. Make the subject of the card Reagan-Thatcher, and the answer is fine, but to make it about the Cold War seems imprecise, unless it was, say, in the last chapter of a book about the the relationships you mention. Items in a series should be understandably related, and for the general teenage audience, these aren't, unless, as I said, they had already covered the topic.

 

If you read The Core, it is clear the author has strong opinions on her values. I got a belly laugh over how she danced around some topics to make the book more palatable to the general public. She is lucky she only had boys, so she didn't have to give examples of what I suspect is her opinion of what she expects from daughters (to be SAHM and not have a career). The book, also, is very personalized, and rather short on meat, so I encourage all but CC enthusiasts to get it from the library.

[LND1218]

Hi,

 

I just read an old thread about Classical Conversations for a non-Christian family. My question is slightly different. A local group is starting near me, and I was pretty enthusiastic until I saw some of the sample flashcards in the CC store.

 

In response to the prompt, "Tell me about the end of the Cold War," one card says, "In the 1980s, British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and U.S. President Ronald Reagan worked together to end the Cold War, lessen big government, and strengthen the conservative movement."

 

This is skewed in a way that is diametrically opposed to our family's political leanings (and my memory of the time--I spent years in the UK during Thatcher's time in office). While I appreciate that it is extremely difficult to present history--especially in bite-sized pieces--in any kind of objective way, is there a lot of that sort of "Go, heroes of the conservative movement" cheerleading?

 

Thanks!

 

Amanda

 

I agree with those who posted that this is just a history fact - it's just a piece of information. It's not intended to sway. There are others that seem on the other side of things in history.

 

As far as "the Cold War" it's a recall prompt pulled from a piece of the sentence. In other words when you are memorizing things, you need something to recall it with.

 

Like tell me the 12's for recalling multiplication facts - or tell me about frogs. It's just a phrasing someone choose. It may not be the best, but it is what it is.

 

Look over the guide and look at all the facts and prompts and decide from there.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Steph

[ladydusk]

She is lucky she only had boys, so she didn't have to give examples of what I suspect is her opinion of what she expects from daughters (to be SAHM and not have a career).

 

I think that is a mis-representation of Bortins' position. I'm no fan of CC for my family, but I do like Leigh Bortins who holds degrees in engineering and a graduate degree in Education based on her research into Classical Education. I think the only place she emphasizes daughters staying at home is considering them home educating any children they may have in the future, but in this case, she is calling for a deeper education so they're prepared to do the hard work of home educating. I know I wish I had those shoulders to stand on rather than trying to discipline myself and reeducating myself at this late date ... after having a "career" before having children.

[kalanamak]

I think that is a mis-representation of Bortins' position. .

 

Well, I judge only from the book. Perhaps I am mistaken, and instead of hiding her Men lead, Women nurture feelings to appear more mainstream, she is hiding her All Women Must Be Able to Support Their Families from the people she thinks will read her book. :lol:

 

 

Anyway, there was definitely a "tone" in her book, and it was amusing.

[kalanamak]

 

As far as "the Cold War" it's a recall prompt pulled from a piece of the sentence.

 

 

 

Aha! A prompt rather than "state three facts about the Reagan-Thatcher era". The dawn comes up. Thanks.

[Dreamdog]

I'm sorry, I know I said I wouldn't post anymore, but I have to say I do understand the intended relationship among the three facts. However, I don't think cutting school lunches (part of the "big government" Reagan opposed) brought about the end of the Cold War...neither did all the privatizing of public programs that Thatcher undertook. What a conservative might call "big government," a liberal might call "important social programs."

 

While the three facts might all be related to the leaders' extreme capitalist views, and the fact that they held similar beliefs made them work well together, only one of these three offshoots of their philosophy related to the Cold War itself.

 

I know, I know, it's a prompt...but it's too complicated and subtle and issue to be used as one, imho.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I'm sorry, I know I said I wouldn't post anymore, but I have to say I do understand the intended relationship among the three facts. However, I don't think cutting school lunches (part of the "big government" Reagan opposed) brought about the end of the Cold War...neither did all the privatizing of public programs that Thatcher undertook. What a conservative might call "big government," a liberal might call "important social programs."

 

While the three facts might all be related to the leaders' extreme capitalist views, and the fact that they held similar beliefs made them work well together, only one of these three offshoots of their philosophy related to the Cold War itself.

 

I know, I know, it's a prompt...but it's too complicated and subtle and issue to be used as one, imho.

 

I think you may be confusing your own personal political beliefs with what is intended as a memory prompt about the end of the cold war and government in the west during that era. What in the prompt is untrue? It offers no value judgment. And furthermore, is an important event in 20th century history.

 

You can dislike Reagan and Thatcher all you wish; for that matter you can dislike Cleopatra, Charlemagne, William the Conqueror, Napoleon, Ivan the Terrible and Robespierre. Liking or disliking a leader and their policies doesn't change history.

 

You may choose not to participate in CC but judging based on this one card isn't giving the program a fair chance. As other posters have pointed out you have no idea what this memory prompt is meant to bring out; what other facts it is intended to introduce. One of the great problems of homeschooling is that consumers tend to forget that they can choose not to use any program they wish nor does every program have to be tailored to accommodate all beliefs/opinions/biases. It seems as though you are posting more to bash a curriculum provider based on your opinion of their product/worldview, if so don't bother to veil it as a question.

[Superfly]

I'm sorry, I know I said I wouldn't post anymore, but I have to say I do understand the intended relationship among the three facts. However, I don't think cutting school lunches (part of the "big government" Reagan opposed) brought about the end of the Cold War...neither did all the privatizing of public programs that Thatcher undertook. What a conservative might call "big government," a liberal might call "important social programs."

 

While the three facts might all be related to the leaders' extreme capitalist views, and the fact that they held similar beliefs made them work well together, only one of these three offshoots of their philosophy related to the Cold War itself.

 

I know, I know, it's a prompt...but it's too complicated and subtle and issue to be used as one, imho.

 

It seems to me that you are just looking for others to say, "yes, it is bias." Nothing you have said is relevant to the facts listed on the card(which is obviously taken out of context of the curriculum). The card listed historical fact....not opinion or bias. The facts given relate specifically to foreign policy. Your examples of big government are limited to domestic policy. Maybe this is why you view it as a stretch to link the 2? They are not talking about domestic social programs. I see no reason why it is too complicated of an issue to teach to children. I could probably explain it to my 6yr old if that is what we were studying. Do a quick google search on "Reagan foreign policy." I'm sure there is probably plenty of info out there on how they are related. I don't think it is a far stretch as far as prompts go. I personally have never seen any part of CC, but you cannot judge a curriculum based on the sample you have given. Maybe your own political bias isn't allowing you to judge history objectively? You can always look for a curriculum that has a liberal bias if that is what you want for your family. That why ppl homeschool, right?

Edited November 7, 2010 by Superfly
sp

[Dreamdog]

Sigh. No, actually, I was happy with the answer Laura gave, thanked her, and thought that should be the end of the discussion. It was simple. Others made it more complicated by giving their own interpretations of what is or is not "conservative", arguing that all the facts were true (they are--just not related in the way that *it appears to me* that the card implies), etc. I tried to explain what, to me, made it a "conservative" card.

 

It was a simple question, folks, with no ulterior message intended. I know I can choose what I like. I was asking a question that I thought would help me understand whether I would like this. I'm sorry I allowed some people to drag me into a messy discussion.

 

Carry on, debate away, malign me as you will...I'm done.

[pdalley]

I'm sorry, I know I said I wouldn't post anymore, but I have to say I do understand the intended relationship among the three facts. However, I don't think cutting school lunches (part of the "big government" Reagan opposed) brought about the end of the Cold War...neither did all the privatizing of public programs that Thatcher undertook. What a conservative might call "big government," a liberal might call "important social programs."

 

While the three facts might all be related to the leaders' extreme capitalist views, and the fact that they held similar beliefs made them work well together, only one of these three offshoots of their philosophy related to the Cold War itself.

 

I know, I know, it's a prompt...but it's too complicated and subtle and issue to be used as one, imho.

 

There are plenty of us that don't use every one of the time line cards in the series. I don't see how it would be a problem to either skip that card or substitute a prompt of your own if you wish.

 

And it sounds like it could be a spring board to a good discussion about your own beliefs and how you arrived at them based on your life experience. That's what I do when a particular product might have a leaning that isn't my own. We use Hakim's Story of US and she speaks highly of things I don't personally believe in. Still, they are good books and we do use them. I don't expect everything I read in any curriculum to go along with my personal beliefs.

 

I clearly remember the Regan/Thatcher years and the Carter years before them. My life experiences were different - obviously - because free and reduced lunch wasn't eliminated here where I live. I know this because I benefited from both programs in my public school career.

 

Of course the events that led to the end of the Cold War are much more complex than what is on that card. But for the purpose of the program I don't have a problem with it stating that two of the main players were also into smaller government and conservatism. Cause they were.

[nancyb]

This is my first year with CC but I have noticed several of the history and other sentences feel crammed. It’s obvious they are trying to get as many facts in a year as they can. I have also found that the facts almost come straight from the Scholastic Everything You Need to Know About World History book. I haven’t looked at the American history sentences but I bet they come from the Scholastic book on American history. What I love about CC is that they give you a sentence like that with no teaching behind it. You can leave it as it is or go home and flesh it out with your personal beliefs. I don’t see how being conservative or liberal would be a problem unless you just felt like you didn’t fit in with your local group. That would be a shame. I believe Christians should focus on what unites us not what divides us.

[grace'smom]

There are a couple of cards that I have a serious problem with in the Classical Conversations timeline, but I don't let that stop my family from using the co op. I know where those cards are in the timeline and I have no problem explaining to my daughter that it is one interpretation of events but that we believe differently (and why). I love the co op and what it's doing for our family. They don't teach the info from the cards in class- it's up to you to review the information with your child. That makes it very easy to discuss different worldviews and gives children a chance to see the diversity of opinions that can be related to one single event. I feel that's a good learning experience and I hope it will help my daughter develop an open minded, accepting attitude towards those who may not believe the same things as our family.

So if you are interested in Classical Conversations it might be helpful to just go and visit with the knowledge that you are in the driver's seat as far as how those cards are taught to your children. Each co op is different, so you may or may not feel your local group is too conservative. Ours has been very accepting and friendly towards my family and we love it, but I have heard of other groups that are much different so there's no way to tell without an actual visit.

[Hedgehogs4]

never mind. don't want to jump in here...water's a little chilly.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Hedgehogs4
deleted post.

[Debbie in OR]

I have no problem explaining to my daughter that it is one interpretation of events but that we believe differently (and why). That makes it very easy to discuss different worldviews and gives children a chance to see the diversity of opinions that can be related to one single event.

 

Would you help me understand what you are saying here? Are you teaching the information as an "interpretation of events" or teaching it as fact, followed by discussion of your worldview regarding that information?

[Penelope]

I have also found that the facts almost come straight from the Scholastic Everything You Need to Know About World History book.

 

Wow. Have they acknowledged that? I would be concerned if they were plagiarizing. CC is becoming huge and somebody is making a lot of money off the whole enterprise.

[angela in ohio]

Wow. Have they acknowledged that? I would be concerned if they were plagiarizing. CC is becoming huge and somebody is making a lot of money off the whole enterprise.

 

Yes, they acknowledge it; that's the point of the sentences. They used to sell the Scholastic books to give more information about each sentence, until they went OOP.

[kalanamak]

OOP.

 

OOP? Did you say OOP? Amazon will now register a blip. How appropriate that OOP is so like oops.:D

[angela in ohio]

OOP? Did you say OOP? Amazon will now register a blip. How appropriate that OOP is so like oops.:D

 

:confused:

 

(Must be from hanging out in my online class all week doing a project with people who can't write a complete sentence, but my brain has turned to mush apparently, and I have no idea what you are saying?)

[Beth in SW WA]

Wow. Have they acknowledged that? I would be concerned if they were plagiarizing. CC is becoming huge and somebody is making a lot of money off the whole enterprise.

 

I have no problem contributing to that enterprise. CC is awesome and a wonderful homeschooling resource, imho. Our girls love it. It's a delightful way to spend our Wed mornings.

 

CC is a business like any other -- and yes, it is huge - and in high demand in many areas. CC communities are starting up all over the country due to a desire for this type of educational enrichment. I thoroughly enjoy our new group.

 

As for the sentence in question, I absolutely agree with it, although I will be concluding it with my own perspective: "...after decades of liberal progressivism resulting in bloated government expansion."

 

"Tell me about the end of the Cold War,"

 

"In the 1980s, British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and U.S. President Ronald Reagan worked together to end the Cold War, lessen big government, and strengthen the conservative movement."

 

I appreciate the sentiment/perspective of the Veritas Press cards and the CC history sentences.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Beth in SW WA
typo

[Susan in KY]

If it wasn't for Thatcher and President Ronald Reagan who knows when and if I would be out today from that awful communist country I was born in. Thank God for them.

 

I was going to suggest asking the folks under communism what they thought. Thanks for the input! :001_smile:

[kalanamak]

:confused:

 

(Must be from hanging out in my online class all week doing a project with people who can't write a complete sentence, but my brain has turned to mush apparently, and I have no idea what you are saying?)

 

You said "until they went OOP". To me, OOP means out of print. It is noted here that once a resource goes OOP the price goes up, people get nervous about not getting it any more, and there is a "rush". E.g. the CWP of SM...I think RR was a bit overwhelmed by the response. So, once something goes OOP, anyone who was considering it RUNS to google and tries to see if they can get it at a reasonable price now.

After I posted I went to Amazon, and I don't see that it is OOP, so we may have started a false rumor. :)

Clear as mud?

[angela in ohio]

You said "until they went OOP". To me, OOP means out of print. It is noted here that once a resource goes OOP the price goes up, people get nervous about not getting it any more, and there is a "rush". E.g. the CWP of SM...I think RR was a bit overwhelmed by the response. So, once something goes OOP, anyone who was considering it RUNS to google and tries to see if they can get it at a reasonable price now.

After I posted I went to Amazon, and I don't see that it is OOP, so we may have started a false rumor. :)

Clear as mud?

 

Ahhhh....

 

I'm glad I asked; that's funny. :D My tired brain went to the rainforest instead of the bookseller. :001_huh:

 

The ones at Amazon are the new edition, though if you search, you can see the old ones (from the 90s.) The newer edition was not an acceptable substitute. CC bought up a bunch of the previous edition, but once they were gone, they stopped carrying them.

 

They are actually a hot item like the OOP Kingfishers, because as homeschoolers we must of course have every possible piece of a curriculum as written. :D I have a set of each of the series, not just history, because the old ones were great resources, but I have also found a few at library sales and made a tidy profit selling them. :001_smile:

[kalanamak]

Ahhhh....

 

I'm glad I asked; that's funny. :D My tired brain went to the rainforest instead of the bookseller. :001_huh:

 

 

Ahhhh, not even the one in the used catagory from 1997 with a different cover?

 

If you mention Amazon, my son thinks: Penthesilea.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Sigh. No, actually, I was happy with the answer Laura gave, thanked her, and thought that should be the end of the discussion. It was simple. Others made it more complicated by giving their own interpretations of what is or is not "conservative", arguing that all the facts were true (they are--just not related in the way that *it appears to me* that the card implies), etc. I tried to explain what, to me, made it a "conservative" card.

 

It was a simple question, folks, with no ulterior message intended. I know I can choose what I like. I was asking a question that I thought would help me understand whether I would like this. I'm sorry I allowed some people to drag me into a messy discussion.

 

Carry on, debate away, malign me as you will...I'm done.

 

Dreamdog,

Welcome to the boards. This is an interesting topic. What you've probably noticed is that while your question was answered, it elicited other thoughts, questions and answers, which in turn prompted still other thoughts, questions and answers.

 

This process happens in many threads, where they turn in a direction that is far from the original question. Sometimes the thread gets a little out of hand, but more often, it inspires inquiry and explanation of topics that people hadn't considered before.

[ktgrok]

for the record, I think it is very biased for the same reasons you do. Calling something Big Government is inheritly biased. How big is big? What makes government big? Is it social programs, financial oversight, what? Its a value judgement once you use that term and that is the problem. Apparently no one sees "big government" as a value judgement, which means they probably use the term too.

[QuirkyKapers]

:lol: So that is what is happening to my face!!

 

 

O my gosh! You are too funny :)