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When should kids start working independently and do they really need to?


Jeanne in MN
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We had a new hs mom at our hs meeting this week. Her middle school on up kids pretty much all work independently and are done by noon. They use Abeka inclusively. I want my kids to work independently like that on one hand, but on the other hand, I think, "how boring!" I like working on science and history and such as a family. I want us to enjoy our learning together. But how long should one do that? Perhaps, I need to be making my 8th grader learn how to work more on her own??

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My 4th grader Is almost completely independent. It certainly has it's perks! ;) I would think by 8th grade they should be able to complete their assignments without much help from you. I just guide him when he needs me but allow him to do independently whatever he is capable of--just like any other aspect of his life. I believe that once they can do something efficiently (tie shoes, for example) that should then become the expectation. To do for them what they themselves can do robs them from the satisfaction and self-confidence they would otherwise gain.

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I have a couple topics I teach or discuss with my oldest, the rest she does independently. That said I still do a family history, science and read aloud time (dh actually does the RA). I plan to continue indefinitely. I just also assign her additional reading to go more in depth.

 

Heather

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I think you should just play this by ear and do what works for you and your daughter!

 

If you ENJOY working on science and history with her, and she enjoys having you do so- by all means, continue as long as you want!! There's nothing that says you EVER have to stop. It's a great time for bonding and continuing to foster a close relationship with her. She'll be grown and gone before you know it, and I highly doubt when that time comes that you'll ever say, "Darn, I wish I hadn't spent so much time with her!" :)

 

On the other hand, if there are things that aren't of as much interest to you and that she feels fine with doing on her own (after you discuss the assignment to your satisfaction and hers), then by all means leave her to it and go do your own thing for a while.

 

I don't think you need to turn it into a "should I make her do this, should she be doing that" kind of thing, just keep on doing what works and what's enjoyable. That's what's great about homeschooling!

 

My daughter is 10 and in 5th grade and I hang out with her for most of her school assignments, especially the more 'major' ones.

 

Math she's doing more independently with TT now as of this year. Spelling review is usually independent. She has some silent reading time on her own. Once a week, she'll work on a cursive workbook for a bit on her own. If she's drawing a picture or some such, I'll go off and do something else while she's done.

 

But pretty much everything else (nearly all language arts, all science, all social studies, some reading and so on) we do together or I at least keep her company while she does it. She likes it that way, and I don't mind it. It keeps her on track and focused, it helps keep us close, and I even find myself learning (or re-learning) something all the time, which is a nice plus.

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I think it's very important for kids to be able to work independently - certainly by middle school. However, learning also happens through interaction - for some kids (and moms) I think it's probably more essential than for others. I would say push independence where it works for you (but do push it somewhere) and do things together if it works for you in other areas.

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I wish I could do all our subjects all together but unfortunately Little Miss Screamsalot (2yo) has to have her sisters take turns occupying her so the others can get a little one on one with me.

 

I think it really depends on the child too. Dd12 has decided that she prefers to do a lot of her work on her own...in fact now that I think about it the only thing I do with her is help her when she has a question about something or when we do a science experiment (along with dd11). Now, dd11 on the other hand definitely has subjects that she does not feel comfortable working alone in. She works independently in everything except math and science. I don't give her the answers or anything but I will offer re-direction when she gets off track and act as cheerleader when she perseveres. Dd7 is just starting to realize she can do things without me. She told me today that I could go away while she was doing her grammar lesson. She said she was more than capable of reading the sentences and filling in the blank with a pronoun. "You know I can read now, mom!" It makes me kind of sad.

 

I think at a certain age (that will be different for every child) you should encourage independence in things they are capable of doing alone and slowly over the years increasing that independence, but I think there is still a place for working together even when they are in highschool. It may not be academically necessary but it sure does wonders for your relationship with your dc. Assuming everyone is having a good time of coarse!

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It really depends on your child. My son (almost 13) is someone who learns through discussion and doing...which gets really boring when done by yourself ;) I don't do his homework for him, but I am there to discuss and dialogue with him, as well as to edit, be a sounding board for ideas, and give advice where needed. I can't really think of much that he does completely independently, but he does various aspects of each subject independently.

 

Does that make sense?

 

He has independent work each day, but we sort of rotate the subjects. For example, one day history will be read-aloud and discussion (he's very auditory and verbal, so this helps him get the big picture on what we're studying). The next day, I'll assign him research on sites that I've already reviewed, answering questions we talked about the day before. The third day, we'll discuss what he learned and agree on the scope of a project that he'll complete (be it a paper, a research project, or something hands-on). The fourth day, we'll discuss the various components of whatever he's chosen to work on, with me acting as more of a sounding board. And the list goes on.

 

Yes, I could make him work independently...but to me, it's more important that he truly learns. He's going into a field that encourages collaborative work, and honestly learns better when he has someone to work with.

 

Each child is different. I personally don't see the point of making a child work independently just because they've reached such-and-such an age, so they ought to be able to do so...we homeschool our kids so that they'll get an excellent education. If independent learning is the best way for them to do that, great! If not, IMO we need to be there to work with them - not to do the work for them, but to facilitate the learning environment that they need.

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Well, my kids started doing some independent work around 6 or 7 years old. Now, they are in 5th and 3rd grade and I spend about an hour going over their new lessons with them individually and then they are off with their checklists. I am still around to answer questions that come up and to help, but really, I'm not sure how a lot of the curriculum I'm using (R&S Math, CLE Math, Saxon Grammar, A Reason for Handwriting) could be used in a non-independent way.

 

I do also spend about an hour a day reading to my kids. We use SL. So, it really does not get boring. I think using SL keeps us all connected and discussing things and balances out some of the workbook curriculum. Somehow, I usually don't have time to get much else other than school, breakfast, the dishes, a load of laundry and a shower done in the mornings.

 

Lisa

Edited by LisaTheresa
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I know one case of a mom who does not want her dc to work independently because she feels as though her dc do not get enough out of their curriculum without her involvement. However, her life has become very chaotic at times and weeks go by, or even months, without any work getting done. Fortunately, the dc are very bright and have no learning issues so they manage in this situation. For me, though, I need to know that my dc will be able to manage even if there is illness in the family or something else comes up and I can't run the show every minute. I wouldn't expect them to do everything independently because I know that some things just work better together or that the real benefit of a particular subject comes through discussion, but I would need to know that the basics that their future education depends on are getting done no matter what. I also have a larger family so it's imperative that a big chunk of their work gets done independently even if I'm right there in the room with them. I think some independent work even at an early age can foster a sense of responsibility and self-discipline.

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It's about balance. There are certain skills that cannot be taught in isolation, and dc who are working completely independently will not master them. Likewise, our dc do need to learn how to learn on their own. As soon as someone says they do things completely one way, they lose me. :001_smile: Some people have life circumstances that force them to have their dc do all of their work independently, but that doesn't mean that it is ideal, imho. My dc could do all of their work independently, if I chose different materials, but that is not even a goal of mine.

 

Classical education, especially at the logic and rhetoric levels, requires a lot of interaction. A Beka can be done independently, but a Great Books or classical education cannot. If you use a lot of workbooks and textbooks that teach dirrectly to the student, you could get away with it, but that's not how classical education works.

 

I don't go by personality. Everyone in our house has to participate in discussion and group work. I know one of my dds would love to just get a stack of curriculum and go off to her corner, but that is not what I think is best for her.

 

Practically, in our home, this is what it looks like:

 

Elementary (K-4 or so): I teach each subject and then (for most) give some independent work to follow up on the skill taught. I teach the 3Rs, and we read a lot of books together and do many field trips for history and science.

 

Middle years (6-8 or so): I start changing over to our high school methods through a gradual process.

 

High school: Independent work is to be completed before class time for some subjects and after for others. I either teach or use an outside source for each area. For example, math and science are with DVD programs, so they watch and read a lesson, we talk about it briefly, and they complete the assignment. I think those two areas need less discussion and more straight explanation, so I don't mind partially outsourcing to the DVD teacher (VTI and DIVE Bio.) For history, literature, and Latin, they have reading assignments before "class time," we have the discussion and I teach, and then they have follow-up assignments: exercises or questions to answer or papers to write. Most subjects are taught once or twice a week, like in college, with work in between. I don't check in with those subject daily, but they are prepared with their work done the next time we meet.

 

I am in contact with them for each and every subject, except things they have decided to learn on their own (Greek, for example.) I have always been very, very hands-on with their education, and they have a great drive to learn and are not passive learners who cannot think for themselves. ;)

 

Just because something is a goal (dc who can learn on their own,) it doesn't mean that it has to happen right away. There is a gradual process, building skills and adding responsibility each year.

Edited by angela in ohio
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Like others I believe this really depends on the child, mom as a teacher, family and your philosophical view of schooling.

 

I have 4 children to school. Three of them enjoy working with me (although each of them do have independent work appropriate for their age and ability). One of them does much better doing his work independently (and it's NOT my oldest!) It just fits his learning style and personality better if HE's the one telling himself what to do! ;) So, I'm working to enable him to be more independent.

 

I feel I'd be doing my children a disservice if I did not work them toward independence throughout their schooling. How that will happen and when they will be truly independent... I can't say and may be different for each child. That's okay. As long as I've prepared them by the end of their schooling with me to learn on their own I'm good with whatever route that takes.

 

I'm starting to plan my upcoming 5th grader's year next year and I've already told him he will do much more work on his own. He's fine with that and we're going to ease him into it over the 2nd half of his 4th grade year. I would not expect my 5th grader to be completely independent though. There are still many new skills he needs to learn to become equipped to learn on his own. However, we'll be taking significant steps toward this.

 

Everything is a process... it's a different process per family and per child.... another beautiful thing about homeschooling. We don't all have to do it the same! :D

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My ds is moving toward independence. He's a delayed reader so this is one of the first years I've been able to assign him subject reading and have him do it on his own. He also has the personality that likes to have someone near while he is working, so even when he is working independently I'm still accessible.

 

We probably will never reach a point where he does EVERY subject independently, that's not what I envision for his education.

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I haven't read the previous responses, so I'm probably repeating something.

 

It's of utmost importance to treasure intellectual independence - of working on one's own, taking as little or as much time as needed, of thinking through things on one's own or completing assignments that way.

However, the independent learning is only part of the picture. Great parts of learning require guided discussion or just free interaction, putting into practice what one has learned, facing a devil's advocate, testing one's position, and getting a sort of feedback. I think that even when kids are technically capable of being fully independent, there are areas in which the quality of learning goes up a few times if there is an element of interaction, particularly in humanities.

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But what exactly is independent work? What does it look like in your homeschool? Please share :)

 

I'm a first-year homeschooler with a 5th grader. We will only be homeschooling until high school, as we do have very good high school choices (charter and affordable privates) here. As I have two older kids in two different high schools, I do know what is expected for an entering intelligent/accelerated/gifted ninth-grader.

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Have you listened to SWB's MP3 about WOrking Towards Independence? My friend and I were just discussing this. My 5th grader isn't very independent. I'm not mom at elbow but more like mom roaming around the house and checking in. He certainly stays more focused the closer I am. RIght now his only truely independent subject is RS Geometric Approach. It's written to the student and it is Dr. Cotter's intention that it be done independently. I check that the work is done and am there when he's having a problem. Everything else is discussion. Particularly in math, I want to know his thought process in completing the problem, not just that he got the correct answer. SWB says that by high school you're a manager, only keeping track of courses for transcripts. I would think that high school is a time where discussion is important. But perhaps she is assuming DC is taking co-op courses, community college courses and getting that discussion in those arenas. But I look forward to having those discussions about the Great Books and really going deep into science. My son thrives on discussion. He likes working in groups on projects etc.

 

For my kids, we go over the math lesson and then I leave them to completing the assignment. All of our LA (MCT) is based on discussion. I'm going to give him more independence w/ history this year by trying History Odyssey.

 

I had posted about this and got various responses. I think what I meant rather than independence was ownership. i want to move my kids to ownership over their education. So rather than having them come to for what they need to do, they will plan w/ my help, know what they need to be doing and when, and then seek me out for subjects that require my presence.

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Quote: But what exactly is independent work? What does it look like in your homeschool? Please share

 

I see learning take 3 distinct forms at my house:

 

1. Mom is pushing child thru the subject(s). At my house, math facts lately is like this. *I'm* the one skip counting with the kids, *I'm* the one flipping flashcards in front of their noses, and *I'm* the one super frustrated that the facts don't seem to be sinking in. This takes a lot of my time and energy. This would be known as one-on-one time and is not independent at all. Now, if I handed them a stack of flashcards or a math fact sheet and sent them away to do it alone, that would be independent.

 

2. Mom is introducing the lesson, and then (hopefully) leaving them to practice the assignment independently. BJU Math and English workbooks do this at my house: I teach the lesson, explain each kind of problem, maybe complete a few on the first page for an example, and then let them go at it. I'm around to answer questions if they get stuck.

 

3. Kids decide they really want to do something and do it on their own. This year, my 7yo is fascinated with evolution (we're Christians, lol - but evolution doesn't bother me, I count it as a possible theory). She naturally finds resources with evolution in it, reads it on her own...I try to dig up some resources that she might find interesting. I don't push it, I just leave it lying around and they are welcome to pick it up whenever they have free time.

 

I really see #3 as the most productive form of learning. Methods 1 & 2 tend to leave me wondering what we're actually accomplishing. But if we only did #3, then the kids would not learn those less fun skills (math facts, argh). For example, if I hadn't forced learning to read upon them, they wouldn't be able to read the books that interest them. I'll add a #4, although it doesn't happen at my house:

 

4. Lesson is written to the child, child is able to read, follow along on their own without assistance from the parent. Computer based learning, DVDs, and some workbooks are set up like this (SOS, Alpha Omega, ACE Paces, Teaching Textbooks, etc.)

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In our house there is a big difference between "independence" and "responsibility".

 

I would eventually like my kids to be 100% responsible for thier schooling. My sophmore is very much there (maybe like 90% if you include planning and choosing her subjects- but 100% in day to day work).

 

100% independence isn't a goal. In fact I think the independence of homeschooling is one of the places where it lacks being the best education. I can't wait until my oldest takes a few community college classes in the next couple years and can join a group to learn.

 

For us that means she has a schedule that she keeps on top of. She has the year long planning sheets that I made mostly on my own (one of the small areas she isn't all responsible), but she is very involved in making her weekly plans and making sure she is staying on goal with the yearly plans.

 

She is responsible for getting the work done every day, knowing what to do on her own if I can't work with her, being cheerfully ready to work on subjects we do together when I have the time, getting her own supplies and books, and getting this weeks work done (and checked/approved by me). About half of her subjects are done independantly and about half we do together. I wish we could do more together, but things are how they are.

 

Now there are a couple subjects that even my 9yo can do independently. But he wasn't responsible for them (or at least very rarely). I mean I call him to the table, get out the books, talk about the lesson, show him where to stop, and then he can work independently on the assingment. Then for the next subject it is the same thing all over.

 

My 11yo has taken a few small steps toward being responsible. For instance, I don't have to wrangle him back to the table everytime. Usually when he completes a subject he shows me and asks what to do next (okay, okay, what he really asks is "Am I done?"- but what I am trying to say is he doesn't sneak away every time he has the chance ;)).

 

I think there is too big a push for independence while I am more focused on responsibility.

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My son (13) can do all of it by himself (if he has to) but we've been working on this skill since he was 6 so it does take time. Sometimes I am out of town so I just make a list on the board and he does it on his own schedule.

 

We do spelling (of course) and science labs together all the time. He likes it when I do math with him because I keep him on track and he gets done faster. But other than that he's all about the independent method.

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My older son has worked independently since about 4th grade. He has been able to read his work figure out what he needs to do and then do the work and I just check what he has done. Some work has gotten much harder and he needs my help in understanding the lessons, but he really does it on his own.

 

My younger son can do some work independently, but he does struggle some.

 

I must share that I want them to depend on me less and less for figuring out how to do their work. When I was in college, I waffled very badly because I could not figure out how to do work on my own. I should not have been learning independent skills in college. I should have known them by then. I feel that it is very important that children learn independent skills. If they are learning a new concept, I have them read about it on their own. I do not explain it to them anymore. If they do not understand or get a lot wrong in the exercises, then I help them to clarify any confusion. This is how it would work in a university environment. I would get a college textbook. I would read it and learn the information. I go to the lectures and take notes. I study and learn from my notes and readings. Then I get a test. I want the children to know how to master information without my help unless a dire need. That is why professors have office hours.

 

This is just my thoughts.

 

Sincerely,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

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Testimony - How does your DC handle literary discussion? Is it all done through writing essays? Is there discussion with you about literary devices or do they read it all on their own and do it on their own? I find the fun stuff is finding out how my DC think about something or how they arrived at the answer, not necessarily what the answer was. I recall lots of discussion in my college classes, particularly my upper level classes. It wasn't just read the textbook, regurgitate on the test. There were lectures, there was discussion. Questions were asked to help us refine our thinking. You don't get that from reading a textbook. Sure there were classes where the prof just went right from the book and there was no point going to the lecture but those were lower level classes.

 

Capt_Uhura

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We had a new hs mom at our hs meeting this week. Her middle school on up kids pretty much all work independently and are done by noon. They use Abeka inclusively. I want my kids to work independently like that on one hand, but on the other hand, I think, "how boring!" I like working on science and history and such as a family. I want us to enjoy our learning together. But how long should one do that? Perhaps, I need to be making my 8th grader learn how to work more on her own??

 

My response is like several others. If independent work is defined by completing everything on their own, than I don't ever reach there with any grade level nor do I want to.

 

This topic is actually one that I am quite passionate about. :D But, I don't have time to type out my thoughts. So, here are a couple of threads from the past on this topic:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1476186&highlight=independent'>http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1476186&highlight=independent'>http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1476186&highlight=independent'>http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1476186&highlight=independent

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1476186&highlight=independent

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Well, all I can say is... it's certainly not in 1st and 2nd grade, lol. I sat with my kids today as they did their seat work. They were finished by 10:00am. Granted, we did take it a little easy today - didn't do FLL or WWE (they're not scheduled for 5 days a week), but yesterday I let DS1 do it on his own, he finally wound up his seatwork by 4:00pm. It killed me. ANyhow, I am hoping that by 4th or 5th grade they'll be able to do a lot of their work alone, but I do want to be involved in history and science because I love those subjects and I think they can get more out of them if they are parent lead. Plus, by the time the boys are that age, I'll have to be spending a lot more time with DD as she'll be just learning to read by then.

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I believe that some level of indepedence is the goal, just so that I don't get burned out. I love being with the kids. I love learning with, and teaching them. But I also need a bit of time for me. I have projects and goals that I want to accomplish at the same time they are accomplishing theirs. Not just home making, but me making, if that makes sense. I am willing to prioritize but if I didn't think a time would come when they could do some things on their own, I don't think I could actually home educate.

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For the past 5 years I've been taking the odd community college class here and there, mostly in the sciences, but some in the arts as well. I've always done well in my online classes, but I've always enjoyed *being in class* more. It's so helpful to have an instructor boil down the most important points; discussion of material is helpful too. With my own experiences in mind, I will always try to be knowledgeable about what my ds (11) is learning, pre-read what he's reading and be able to discuss and guide his learning.

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Testimony - How does your DC handle literary discussion? Is it all done through writing essays? Is there discussion with you about literary devices or do they read it all on their own and do it on their own? I find the fun stuff is finding out how my DC think about something or how they arrived at the answer, not necessarily what the answer was. I recall lots of discussion in my college classes, particularly my upper level classes. It wasn't just read the textbook, regurgitate on the test. There were lectures, there was discussion. Questions were asked to help us refine our thinking. You don't get that from reading a textbook. Sure there were classes where the prof just went right from the book and there was no point going to the lecture but those were lower level classes.

 

Capt_Uhura

 

We do literary discussions two ways. We do them orally or written depending on my mood. :lol:

 

I want to tell you that I cannot get over last year's discussion with my older son about some books he read. He decided to compare Tom Sawyer, Kim, and Oliver Twist. He chose those books on his own to do his literary comparision. They were all books he read last year or two years ago (sorry last year was Lord of the Rings). He chose those books to do his comparison because they were all orphaned. All had different circumstances and all with different ending, yet similar in many respects. He wrote these books as summarizations first. Then he and I had a very long discussion on Tom Sawyer's behaviors versus Kim's and Oliver Twist. He felt strongly that Tom Sawyer had it better than the rest because he had family who always loved him. The others did not have any family and behaved better. Yes, we have had some amazing literary discussions. I think that it is wrong to think that independent means hands off. I still check their work and keep on top of them for deadlines, but they needs to learn to make their own schedule and gage their own time frame. They have to do it some time because the professors are not doing that for them in college, even the most nuturing college is not spelling out how to monitor your time. Isn't great life skill to have anyway?

 

I forgot: I do Charlotte Mason Approach which is narrations after every reading. I don't do straight summarizing the story. We talk about the characters. I'm an amateur writer so, I ask them questions like whose point of view is the story being told. I have not done any formal literary discussion. We love the book comparison thing. My younger son compared Island of the Blue Dolphins with Robinson Crusoe. It was neat how he was able to figure out the common enemies in the two books. The conflict in the stories and how it was resolved, they made you think it was the same story. We've had so much fun with literature.

 

Blessings,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

Edited by Testimony
I forgot
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Last year we reached a point that the big boys were extremely independent. They had the list and they knew how to do it. If there were questions, they came to me but they could handle it. Then I realized they were just going through the motions. It was rote and dull. The retention was low and the "care" was lower. They finished everything and read everything but it didn't "live" for them.

 

I began being more involved with the teaching and conversation and school became much better. I'm not hovering or at-their-elbow. I'm creating more of a Socratic Method way of instruction. We discuss what's new or challenging about a lesson and then I set them off to finish the actual work themselves. Questions and answers, back and forth...the exchange and discussion makes it much more memorable and interesting. I would NOT enjoy school if it were just all books and dry textbooks. The exchange is a big ingredient to me.

 

But that's just me.

 

As someone else said, independence probably means something different to me than what might be the OP intention. I'd say the boys are independent but not alone.

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Thank you all so much!! I learned that my eighth grader would benefit from doing some of her work independently and I can see where it would be excellent for her maturity, sense of responsibility, etc.

 

I'm also grateful to hear many of you say how a classical education or using great books is not a hands off approach to learning. We don't have to go completely independent. It's ok to be involved in my maturing teen's daily work as well as her working independently. I like the idea of balancing them both.

 

Thank you all so much for your wisdom, insight and experience. It really cleared my thinking and gave me new direction.

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As someone else said, independence probably means something different to me than what might be the OP intention. I'd say the boys are independent but not alone.

 

I love this!

 

Just yesterday my son was working on his math. He had all the correct answers but he missed the instructions which suggested which mental math strategies to use. He was using the same strategy for all the problems. If I had been just checking for right answers and not stopping by to ask questions about his thought process, he would have missed the point of the lesson while still getting the correct answers.

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Thanks for the elaboration. I had quite a different picture based on your earlier post!

 

Capt_Uhura

 

We do literary discussions two ways. We do them orally or written depending on my mood. :lol:

 

I want to tell you that I cannot get over last year's discussion with my older son about some books he read. He decided to compare Tom Sawyer, Kim, and Oliver Twist. He chose those books on his own to do his literary comparision. They were all books he read last year or two years ago (sorry last year was Lord of the Rings). He chose those books to do his comparison because they were all orphaned. All had different circumstances and all with different ending, yet similar in many respects. He wrote these books as summarizations first. Then he and I had a very long discussion on Tom Sawyer's behaviors versus Kim's and Oliver Twist. He felt strongly that Tom Sawyer had it better than the rest because he had family who always loved him. The others did not have any family and behaved better. Yes, we have had some amazing literary discussions. I think that it is wrong to think that independent means hands off. I still check their work and keep on top of them for deadlines, but they needs to learn to make their own schedule and gage their own time frame. They have to do it some time because the professors are not doing that for them in college, even the most nuturing college is not spelling out how to monitor your time. Isn't great life skill to have anyway?

 

I forgot: I do Charlotte Mason Approach which is narrations after every reading. I don't do straight summarizing the story. We talk about the characters. I'm an amateur writer so, I ask them questions like whose point of view is the story being told. I have not done any formal literary discussion. We love the book comparison thing. My younger son compared Island of the Blue Dolphins with Robinson Crusoe. It was neat how he was able to figure out the common enemies in the two books. The conflict in the stories and how it was resolved, they made you think it was the same story. We've had so much fun with literature.

 

Blessings,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

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