Puppy "breeder" question - there was an

[yarrow]

ad for a mixed breed puppy that I called about yesterday. The woman explained what types of dogs the parents were, told me how old the puppies were, shot information, etc. The thing that was odd was that she said she had the puppies and the puppies belonged to her but she didn't have the parents. She told me that she's had the puppies for 2 weeks which means they left their mother at 4 weeks. Isn't that too early? Also, when asked why she had the puppies when she didn't own either parent, she said she took them for a friend who couldn't keep them.

 

It just seems really odd to me. What should I be concerned about? Should I even go look?

[Caitilin]

Don't go look. She's lying to you.

[yarrow]

Lying about what? Their parentage? Owning them?

[Caitilin]

Their origins, potentially their breed, etc. Why would anyone reputable own 4 week-old pups without their mother, kwim? This is someone out to make a quick buck, IMO.

[Lolly]

It is possible that she has a friend who kicked the puppies out at 4 weeks. Personally, I would not take a puppy who had been taken from its mother that young. Yes, it is too young.

 

Other possibility is that she is lying and does have the parents, but doesn't want you to see them for some reason.

[Guest janainaz]

The parents should be on site. The puppies should be with their mom for at least 6 weeks. I would not consider buying a puppy from her.

[ValRN]

Puppies should be with their moms at least 7-8 weeks. When they are taken from their moms too early, they develop social problems...one of them being developing no bite inhibition.

[hornblower]

Ding ding ding - RED FLAG!

 

That's the classic signs of a broker.

 

A broker takes dogs from a puppy mill or a byb (back yard breeder) and sells them. Brokers are usually living in nicer houses than the byb & can put on a "better show" for the buyers.

 

Have a look at the No Puppy Mills website as it explains what a byb is & how to spot them & what a reputable breeder looks like.

http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/

 

BTW, there are no reputable mutt breeders in my books. It's an oxymoron. I'd consider an ooopsie litter (didn't spay fast enough) but that's about it. & then they should be honest about it: "fluffy wasn't spayed & we accidentally let her get out & the neighbour's dog got at her. We're spaying her after she's finished nursing the pups." Hmmmm. I'd still want to whack them on the head but honesty & trying to make the best of a situation goes a long way.

 

Reputable breeders btw may not always have both parents on site. Many reputable purebred dog breeders will have their ***** flown across the country to be bred to a champion dog there. Or they might have frozen semen shipped & will inseminate. Reputable breeders are breeding for good genetics, not just because they have this female & this male handy.

 

If you want a mutt, look at www.petfinder.org

 

If you want purebred, look at www.petfinder.org

 

If you want a puppy, look at www.petfinder.org

 

If you want a small dog, look at www.petfinder.org

 

If you want a large dog, look at www.petfinder.org

 

:D

 

Yup, there's a pattern LOL. They're all out there, puppies, purebred, mixed, small, large. you might need to wait a few weeks, you might need to be a bit patient.

 

But please, adopt, don't buy & if you must, definitely not from a person like this.

[kwickimom]

No way would I buy from there. Parents should be on site or at least the female if she was sent off to breed (which obviously not the case), but then she should have all info and pics of the male. 4 weeks is WAY too early to wean a puppy if you want optimal health. If its an "oopsy" litter she should still have the mama around if the pups are that young.

 

ETA- there is NOTHING wrong with buying a dog from a reputable breeder. If you are looking for a mixed breed, then by all means adopt. If you are looking for a certain breed puppy for a specific fit for you and your famliy you can find many good breeders. Reputable breeders are working hard to have good traits bred into their puppies.

Edited August 20, 2010 by kwickimom

[patchfire]

Yup, there's a pattern LOL. They're all out there, puppies, purebred, mixed, small, large. you might need to wait a few weeks, you might need to be a bit patient.

 

:iagree:

We wanted a Siberian Husky. Petfinder let us find the name of the local Husky rescue group. This was back in June. We got the dog this week, on Tuesday, but it was worth it! She's good with the cat, the kids, and is already housebroken. ;)

 

Now to get her used to the clicker... :)

[yarrow]

breeder per se, I think it was an "oops" litter. And she's not trying to put on a show - she lives a in a double-wide in a very rural community with cows in her front yard (no offense at all to people who live in a double-wide - I was just responding that sometimes brokers try to appear more "fancy" than the breeder). And it's not a pure-bred, it's a shepard mix. We tried the shelter but because we won't fence our very, very large property, we weren't approved. Obviously, when the dog is a puppy, he/she is on-lease when outside but after the dog is trained, we allow our dog to run around our land (while we're outside with him) and we call him when he starts to go too far.

 

So, I am alarmed but my naive question is why would it matter to us? Would the puppies development be harmed by being removed from its mother at such an early age? We'll take good care of the puppy. Probably a very stupid question but what would our risks be?

 

karen

[poodlemama]

sounds like a "puppy broker" I say run the other way. Why does this lady have the puppies, where IS the mom? Sounds a little odd.

Lindsey

 

developmentally puppies need to be with mom and little mates for the first 8 weeks. Issues of fear, lack of an dog play behavior, lack of bite inhibition are likely. Also without seeing the mom and dad you don't know the health/ temperament/ treatment of the parents.

Edited August 20, 2010 by poodlemama

[simka2]

If you go to your local...petsmart or petco they have some puppy vitamin gel, that I have used with really young/weakened animals. I would probly do some research in how to care for a small breed puppy...as these can sometimes need added nutrients anyway.

 

I don't like the situation, but these puppies are still going to need a home:glare: Specifically though it's a gamble on their condition...that's why we like to see the parents on site:D Also, you never know what your going to get!!!!

 

Hope that helps!

[lswatson111304]

Maybe she is a reputable breeder that happened across this litter from someone that didn't know how to care for them? I know that if I knew how to properly care for puppies and someone I knew didn't and asked me for help, I would. I could be naive though.

[kwickimom]

breeder per se, I think it was an "oops" litter. And she's not trying to put on a show - she lives a in a double-wide in a very rural community with cows in her front yard (no offense at all to people who live in a double-wide - I was just responding that sometimes brokers try to appear more "fancy" than the breeder). And it's not a pure-bred, it's a shepard mix. We tried the shelter but because we won't fence our very, very large property, we weren't approved. Obviously, when the dog is a puppy, he/she is on-lease when outside but after the dog is trained, we allow our dog to run around our land (while we're outside with him) and we call him when he starts to go too far.

 

So, I am alarmed but my naive question is why would it matter to us? Would the puppies development be harmed by being removed from its mother at such an early age? We'll take good care of the puppy. Probably a very stupid question but what would our risks be?

 

karen

 

RISKS?

 

Its like a preemie baby. They could turn out to be perfectly healthy, it could have health issues for its entire life. My mom found 2 abandoned kittens (one still had the umbilical cord attached) She bottle raised them both. One is extremely healthy, the other has a crooked neck, neurological issues, pees all over the house, sick all the time.....

 

Not knowing what the mother and father were and if they had health issues is a big concern. If the mother was sick...she could have passed on health issues to the puppies. Chances are they would be OK with the help of a vet. But they could also end up being very ill or unhealthy down the road.

 

There are millinos of puppies that need homes adn I would just say go and find one that has been vet checked and is healthy and stable and had a good start in life if you dont want to gamble with health issues on these puppies.

[hornblower]

If you can't see at least the mom, you have no idea of her temperament. I have seen whole litters of fearful, anxious, pups with aggression issues from a fearful, anxious dam.

 

When pups are taken away from mom prematurely, they miss critical learning which only moms can deliver well. There are documented reports of professional trainers raising orphaned pups & the challenges it poses for behaviour, esp bite inhibition. Siblings help with it to an extent, but the dam is really critical. A puppy removed from its dam & littermates before 8 week is at risk of becoming anxious/fearful or a fighter, & lacking good bite inhibition.

 

A lot of reputable breeders are keeping pups longer than the 8 weeks which is common, partly to avoid stressing the pup during the 8-10 week fear impact subperiod. Puppies can develop lifelong fears & phobias from inappropriate exposure to stimuli at this time. If they're with their mom & observe mom not beng fazed, it alleviates this risk tremendously.

 

I'd strongly suggest you fence a smaller portion of your property if you can't do the whole thing. Any puppy needs offleash play & their recall will not be solid for some time. You need a safe, fenced area for games of fetch etc.

 

Many rescues & shelters will adopt out to people with no fences (& those living in apartments) if they can indicate that they have made plans for how they will exercise the dog (regular on leash walks several times a day, visits to the dog park etc.)

[DarlaS]

:iagree:

We wanted a Siberian Husky. Petfinder let us find the name of the local Husky rescue group. This was back in June. We got the dog this week, on Tuesday, but it was worth it! She's good with the cat, the kids, and is already housebroken. ;)

 

Now to get her used to the clicker... :)

 

You've probably already been told this, but a husky is really more of a cat in a dog suit. :tongue_smilie:

 

Ours will be six years old this fall. She's not like a typical dog at all--not a cuddler, and not particularly eager to please. (Fine with me--I would be annoyed by a dog that couldn't get enough of me.)

 

They are great dogs, and very trainable, but definitely different than something like a lab.

 

Enjoy your new girl!

 

 

Oh, and most importantly, do you have pics? :D

[ktgrok]

breeder per se, I think it was an "oops" litter. And she's not trying to put on a show - she lives a in a double-wide in a very rural community with cows in her front yard (no offense at all to people who live in a double-wide - I was just responding that sometimes brokers try to appear more "fancy" than the breeder). And it's not a pure-bred, it's a shepard mix. We tried the shelter but because we won't fence our very, very large property, we weren't approved. Obviously, when the dog is a puppy, he/she is on-lease when outside but after the dog is trained, we allow our dog to run around our land (while we're outside with him) and we call him when he starts to go too far.

 

So, I am alarmed but my naive question is why would it matter to us? Would the puppies development be harmed by being removed from its mother at such an early age? We'll take good care of the puppy. Probably a very stupid question but what would our risks be?

 

karen

its a broker. I'd bet money on it. The mom is in a filthy cage somewhere. These puppies will not have the proper socialization and are bite risks. Don't do it.

[vettechmomof2]

breeder per se, I think it was an "oops" litter. And she's not trying to put on a show - she lives a in a double-wide in a very rural community with cows in her front yard (no offense at all to people who live in a double-wide - I was just responding that sometimes brokers try to appear more "fancy" than the breeder). And it's not a pure-bred, it's a shepard mix. We tried the shelter but because we won't fence our very, very large property, we weren't approved. Obviously, when the dog is a puppy, he/she is on-lease when outside but after the dog is trained, we allow our dog to run around our land (while we're outside with him) and we call him when he starts to go too far.

 

So, I am alarmed but my naive question is why would it matter to us? Would the puppies development be harmed by being removed from its mother at such an early age? We'll take good care of the puppy. Probably a very stupid question but what would our risks be?

 

karen

The natural socialization that the puppy would receive from the mother would be missing. Some of it will still be there if it at least stayed with the other pups but you could be increasing your risks of biting problems, fearfulness, aggression issues and socialization problems.

Those are just some of the problems.

If this was an oops litter then I would be asking for the pup for free or paying for vaccinations if they started the series but I would want proof from a vet! not there word for it.

The only other reason why they might be seperated would be if the mother died and they had to hand rear but I believe they would have told you that if it was the case.

Personally and professionally I would keep looking or at least not offer any money for one of these pups.

[unsinkable]

its a broker. I'd bet money on it. The mom is in a filthy cage somewhere. These puppies will not have the proper socialization and are bite risks. Don't do it.

 

:crying::(

[LauraGB]

A puppy removed from its dam & littermates before 8 week is at risk of becoming anxious/fearful or a fighter, & lacking good bite inhibition.

 

 

 

My dog was the last of two (of an oops litter) and we ended up taking them both home. I called the next day to find out the birthdate - he gave me a date he "thought" it was, and I pointed out that that was only 5 weeks ago. He thought a little harder and gave me a date of 4 weeks prior instead. I was pretty p.o.'d. And my two were the last two.

 

Anyway, my dog does have anxious/fearful behavior to the point where I think she might be crazy (I've posted here about her before).

 

 

 

I have a question though. Everyone says to not get the pup. What will happen if no one takes the pups this woman has? And, if OP can give this pup a loving home, shouldn't she? I'm in no way, shape or form endorsing the seller here (of course!), but she *does* have these pups - that's a fact. And removing the pups from her care/house can't be a bad thing, can it? I don't know how much she is asking for these pups, but if it's nominal, what's to stop her from "getting rid" of them on her own when they're bloated with worms and pooping all over her yard?? What if she still has them when the first one goes into heat and the siblings are still there? I ask because this was a big reason we took both our pups home that day (and found a loving home on our own for the other one).

[RobinF]

breeder per se, I think it was an "oops" litter. And she's not trying to put on a show - she lives a in a double-wide in a very rural community with cows in her front yard (no offense at all to people who live in a double-wide - I was just responding that sometimes brokers try to appear more "fancy" than the breeder). And it's not a pure-bred, it's a shepard mix. We tried the shelter but because we won't fence our very, very large property, we weren't approved. Obviously, when the dog is a puppy, he/she is on-lease when outside but after the dog is trained, we allow our dog to run around our land (while we're outside with him) and we call him when he starts to go too far.

 

So, I am alarmed but my naive question is why would it matter to us? Would the puppies development be harmed by being removed from its mother at such an early age? We'll take good care of the puppy. Probably a very stupid question but what would our risks be?

 

karen

 

 

Just another issue, you may not get the mix breed that you want. We took a free puppy that was "1/2 lab". Now that she is 3 years old, I highly doubt that she is 1/2 lab. I do think she is a mixed breed just not lab. We don't care. She is a great dog and we love her but it just shows that puppies (esp mixed) sometimes look like a breed they aren't. Ours looked like a lab mix puppy until she got a little older.

[jazzyfizzle]

 

When pups are taken away from mom prematurely, they miss critical learning which only moms can deliver well. ... A puppy removed from its dam & littermates before 8 week is at risk of becoming anxious/fearful or a fighter, & lacking good bite inhibition.

 

A lot of reputable breeders are keeping pups longer than the 8 weeks which is common, partly to avoid stressing the pup during the 8-10 week fear impact subperiod....

 

 

Yep and :iagree: Avoid them.

[jazzyfizzle]

 

I have a question though. Everyone says to not get the pup. What will happen if no one takes the pups this woman has? And, if OP can give this pup a loving home, shouldn't she? I'm in no way, shape or form endorsing the seller here (of course!), but she *does* have these pups - that's a fact. And removing the pups from her care/house can't be a bad thing, can it? I don't know how much she is asking for these pups, but if it's nominal, what's to stop her from "getting rid" of them on her own...

 

I completely understand your reasoning. Unfortunately, *typically* if these people make any kind of money, they continue doing this. The same reasoning for a pet store puppy. Many people want to 'save' the puppy, and I have to fight the urge to do the same. But the store only sees a certain breed of puppy sold and the profit from that, it increases the chance they will 'order' even more. It is heartwrenching.

[hornblower]

I have a question though. Everyone says to not get the pup. What will happen if no one takes the pups this woman has?

 

You know what - this IS a hard issue.

 

I would never support pet store pup, (people sometimes call that rescueing - as in "I rescued this poor puppy from the store!") a byb or a puppy mill.

 

Hwvr, rescues have taken in dogs from puppy mill busts. I think it's different in that case because the miller is being shut down, sometimes charged etc. If the miller is not being shut down, then rescues are just enabling that person to move some stock & to get back in business; bad thing.

 

I think the big problem here is you take them off her hands & she'll turn around to get more. And more. It's easy money for her. One of the ways to break the cycle is to make it very difficult to sell pups like this because nobody will take them.

 

If someone DOES want to take them on (& it would have to be for free, as in this person would just give them away & not charge anything for them - which she shouldn't be anyway since I doubt they've had any vet care), well you really have to know what you're getting into.

 

It could be years of very intensive behaviour modification down the line; someone would need tons of info about dog behaviour and a pretty good sense of how to go about fixing things (& it can't be info from tv shows ;))

 

It's tough, I know. These pups are here in front of you, what do you do? BUT if you take them, that mom in the cage will be bred again & again & again. You rescue one but sentence a bunch more to misery.

[simka2]

You know what - this IS a hard issue.

 

I would never support pet store pup, (people sometimes call that rescueing - as in "I rescued this poor puppy from the store!") a byb or a puppy mill.

 

Hwvr, rescues have taken in dogs from puppy mill busts. I think it's different in that case because the miller is being shut down, sometimes charged etc. If the miller is not being shut down, then rescues are just enabling that person to move some stock & to get back in business; bad thing.

 

I think the big problem here is you take them off her hands & she'll turn around to get more. And more. It's easy money for her. One of the ways to break the cycle is to make it very difficult to sell pups like this because nobody will take them.

 

If someone DOES want to take them on (& it would have to be for free, as in this person would just give them away & not charge anything for them - which she shouldn't be anyway since I doubt they've had any vet care), well you really have to know what you're getting into.

 

It could be years of very intensive behaviour modification down the line; someone would need tons of info about dog behaviour and a pretty good sense of how to go about fixing things (& it can't be info from tv shows ;))

 

It's tough, I know. These pups are here in front of you, what do you do? BUT if you take them, that mom in the cage will be bred again & again & again. You rescue one but sentence a bunch more to misery.

 

Great points! I wouldn't pay any money in this situation...I would offer to adopt the puppy. If she has documention of shots (which @ that age I don't think so, but maybe) I would reimburse the costs...but I wouldn't want to support that market!

[Amber in AUS]

I'll put my hand up and say we were stung in a situation like this 4 or so years ago. We bought what we thought was a pure breed beagle puppy from what we now know to be a broker and it was the worst decision ever. The dog ended up being cross staffy, an escape artist and a generally horrible, disobedient dog. Eventually we had to rehome her because we just couldn't take her anymore despite 2 years of VERY hard work.

 

We now have 2 beautiful dogs with excellent temperaments which we acquired from reputable breeders. I would never buy a puppy from the paper again. It was a truly horrible 2 years and in the end we were all devastated it didn't work out.

[yarrow]

NOT to go see them. I called her again and she said that it was an oops litter and the people who had the parents were just going to dump the puppies so she took them. She said she breeds a different type of dog and so the woman asked her if she would take the pups before her husband "disposed" of them. She gave me her vets name & phone number and I was almost convinced to go see them since it sounded like it wasn't her fault and her fee was very small ($100) so she wasn't making lots of money off this "mistake". But, the vet wasn't open today & the puppies "were going fast - you'll want to come today" and, if she was a breeder, I *think* I would be able to find her online. I searched & searched, her phone number, name, etc. and nothing.

 

So, we didn't go. And the dog search goes on. The local humane society will not allow anyone to adopt a dog without a fenced area in our yard and that's nothing something we want to do right now.

 

Thank you all for your feedback. It was very helpful.

[unsinkable]

I rescued a pup once. The litter had been abandoned at 3 weeks (mom was roaming and got picked up and the jerk was too cheap to bail her out of doggie jail over T'giving.) And then the guy was dumping the puppies at 5 weeks (he also dumped two litters of kittens and over 50 domestic rabbits--the coyotes were well fed for awhile). We had the dog for over a year and a half and I still don't think she ever knew her name! She was clueless at herding, though she came out of herding stock on both sides. She kept picking fights with the other dogs and almost killed our other Border Collie. She got her down on the ice and if I hadn't driven up right then, that would have been it. It took an adult with a large stick to separate the dogs. I finally got her off that last time and she tore to the barn and just started ripping chickens to shreds! It was like something switched in her brain that day. The vet referred to her as criminally insane... I had small children at home and we couldn't risk rehoming her. It was hard to put her down. If you've ever seen a child with RAD, that was that dog. I'll never take another dog younger than 8 weeks and one day old. Guide Dogs for the Blind found that they have to place a dog at 8 weeks and one day old and 8 weeks and 6 days old, or the dog will not make it as a GDB. They spay them and give them away...

 

What a heart-wrenching story.

 

In regard to the Guide dogs --- I didn't realize that they were that precise! It's incredible.