Please talk to me about student loans! This does not make sense to me!

[ereks mom]

ER talked with the Financial Aid office at his college today. In his financial aid package, he was "awarded" a Stafford subsidized loan, a Stafford unsubsidized loan, and a Parent Plus loan. If he HAS to have student loans, I would be willing for him to do the Stafford loans, but dh & I absolutely can NOT afford to borrow money to pay for his college, so the Parent Plus loan is not a possibility. However, the Financial Aid officer says that we have to apply for all of the aforementioned loans, one once approved, dh & I can decline the Parent Plus loan. Is this correct? If so, WHY??? The officer also told ER that the only way he can be approved for more student loan dollars than what is in his financial aid package is for dh & me to apply for the Parent Plus loan and be rejected, and then ER will be able to request more loan money. What??? Can someone please explain this stuff to me??? :confused:

 

ETA: He's a good student too: he's a junior with 76 total credits and a 3.75 GPA.

Edited August 12, 2010 by ereks mom

[anotherbrother]

I don't know the particulars, but parental income applies well into your twenties unless you are married or have your own dependents. (I think) I hope someone else can answer this for you.

 

We're still knee deep in several loans. My husband is one year away from completing his PhD.

[LibraryLover]

Ah. Welcome to CrazyTown.

Edited August 12, 2010 by LibraryLover

[KidsHappen]

Uh yep. My hubby just left for GA this morning to deal with financial aid for my dd. She did all the work to take the SAT, placement and entrance exams and get accepted but she has made zero progress with the financial aid office and she can't register for classes until her finacial aid is in place. Honestly, they have been no help at all. Our plans were for her to take a student loan. Turns out she can't do that this year because she isn't 18 yet and I can't even begin to understand why a parent would be required to contribute to college costs once their child is 18 and legally an adult anyhow. What if a parent didn't want to? Does that mean that the child wouldn't be able to go to college until they were 25? How is it that a child can go off to war at 18 but not be responsible for their own college costs? It makes no sense what-so-ever. I had to get a letter from my dad saying that he no longer provided for me so that I could get my own finacial aid and I was married and had children at the time. :001_huh:

[Pamela H in Texas]

ummmm, my daughter gets financial aid and loans though she's not yet 18. She's starting her 3rd full time semester (and 5th total). Our income is figured in for grants, of course; but not for loans, nor were we offered any additional loans in our names.

 

We have had so much easier a time with financial aid. The only time it's been an issue has been special circumstances with hubby losing his job; but that was more just a headache of paperwork and a committee that meets once a week.

 

I'm sorry y'all (and it seems a lot of people) have so much trouble with this process. We'll be thankful things have been pretty easy for us :)

[Jane in NC]

As I understand things, Stafford loans (either subsidized or unsubsidized--depending on income) are offered to any student who has filled out the FAFSA. But there is a limit on these amounts--they are certainly insufficient to fund a year of college at most schools except perhaps a CC.

 

Parents are expected to contribute a portion of savings and earnings to a child's education. (And as we have discussed many times on the College Board, the Expected Family Contribution or EFC is not always what a family believes it can contribute!) PLUS loans are available to parents of undergrads who lack the savings to pay their EFC. But I will admit that I have never heard of anyone being obligated to apply for them.

 

I would caution you about one thing though. PLUS loans may be a better alternative to private loans, another option.

 

Of course, grant money would be a much nicer option. Any chance??

 

It surprises me that students are going to the wire in working out these financial details. My son's college has been very clear on our obligation and various paths to manage it. Since you are being asked to assume some financial liability, I would not hesitate to pick up the phone and ask questions.

 

Jane

[ereks mom]

ummmm, my daughter gets financial aid and loans though she's not yet 18. She's starting her 3rd full time semester (and 5th total). Our income is figured in for grants, of course; but not for loans, nor were we offered any additional loans in our names.

 

We have had so much easier a time with financial aid. The only time it's been an issue has been special circumstances with hubby losing his job; but that was more just a headache of paperwork and a committee that meets once a week.

 

I'm sorry y'all (and it seems a lot of people) have so much trouble with this process. We'll be thankful things have been pretty easy for us :)

 

Thing have been pretty easy for us until now. ER is a junior, and his first two years, EVERYTHING--including books, choir uniforms, and even his backpack--was covered by scholarships. BUT his former college decided to eliminate ER's major, putting about 40 students into limbo. He had no choice but to transfer. He attended a private Christian college, and is transferring to another private Christian college (same denomination in the same state). In most respects, the first college and the second college are very similar--size & demographics, belief statements, etc.--yet somehow, ER has been awarded FAR fewer scholarships at the second college. You know what the REALLY sad thing is? College #2 was ER's second choice college back when he was applying to colleges as a high school senior. He participated in their interview process and was awarded a FULL TUITION scholarship, but turned it down to attend College #1, which in turn, eliminated his major when he was halfway through. :confused:

[KidsHappen]

ummmm, my daughter gets financial aid and loans though she's not yet 18. She's starting her 3rd full time semester (and 5th total). Our income is figured in for grants, of course; but not for loans, nor were we offered any additional loans in our names.

 

We have had so much easier a time with financial aid. The only time it's been an issue has been special circumstances with hubby losing his job; but that was more just a headache of paperwork and a committee that meets once a week.

 

I'm sorry y'all (and it seems a lot of people) have so much trouble with this process. We'll be thankful things have been pretty easy for us :)

 

You know, I am hearing this from several people so I am assuming that they college there simply has the incorrect information and hopefully my hubby will be able to straighten this out today.

[bzymom]

We've been doing college financial aid for 5 years, and have never taken the offer to apply for the Parent Plus loans. It has not affected our sons' aid packages.

[Gwenhwyfar]

I can't even begin to understand why a parent would be required to contribute to college costs once their child is 18 and legally an adult anyhow. What if a parent didn't want to? Does that mean that the child wouldn't be able to go to college until they were 25? How is it that a child can go off to war at 18 but not be responsible for their own college costs? It makes no sense what-so-ever.

 

:iagree:

 

What happens to the student whose parents flat out refuse?

 

(I never went to college, but my parents wouldn't have given me a red penny at 18. We didn't exactly get along back then...)

[Jane in NC]

 

What happens to the student whose parents flat out refuse?

 

 

 

Whether you agree with the methodology or not, parental income and savings will be considered by colleges. In my day it was far easier for a student to declare independence from parents so that only the student's assets and income were considered. Much more difficult now.

 

Gone are the days in which students could earn a substantial percentage of their fees during the summer months.

 

Because college is important to us, we have saved since my son's birth for his education. Further, he has saved as well. I view this as our responsibility. It sometimes surprises me when parents state that they do not want their children to assume debt, but then are unwilling to pay. Who then pays? Perhaps we should have a spinoff thread and/or survey.

[Gwenhwyfar]

What happens to the student whose parents flat out refuse?

 

Whether you agree with the methodology or not, parental income and savings will be considered by colleges. In my day it was far easier for a student to declare independence from parents so that only the student's assets and income were considered. Much more difficult now.

 

Gone are the days in which students could earn a substantial percentage of their fees during the summer months.

 

Because college is important to us, we have saved since my son's birth for his education. Further, he has saved as well. I view this as our responsibility. It sometimes surprises me when parents state that they do not want their children to assume debt, but then are unwilling to pay. Who then pays? Perhaps we should have a spinoff thread and/or survey.

 

It sounds a bit as if you think I was talking about myself? I wasn't. :)

 

If our kids decide to go to college, we'll try to help them. I don't know if we'll be able to or not, but we'd certainly try.

 

I was talking about those whose parents refuse - like mine would have done.

 

I do, actually, disagree COMPLETELY with it being "mandatory".

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

Whether you agree with the methodology or not, parental income and savings will be considered by colleges. In my day it was far easier for a student to declare independence from parents so that only the student's assets and income were considered. Much more difficult now.

 

Yes. That happened right around 1992.

 

:rant:

 

I had researched my financial aid options like crazy and learned that if I declared myself independent for tax purposes and was not claimed on my parents' return, I would receive financial aid based on my income alone. So, for that year, that's what I did and my mother made me pay her what she lost on her tax return!!! I mean, are you kidding me?!?! But my parents hadn't saved a dime for my education and were not prepared to help me at all, so I knew it would be worth it. Whoopsy! What's that? The law changed? Yep. The law changed that year and they considered my parents' income regardless of my claiming myself independent. They calculated my financial aid based on my parents' substantial income and, in the end, that one change in the law cost me thousands of dollars.

 

Gone are the days in which students could earn a substantial percentage of their fees during the summer months.

 

I'm hopeful that it still depends on where you go but I fear you are right. I did work and pay, work and pay at a fairly-priced state college for my first two years. It was the transfer to a private (expensive) college in 1992 that cost me. Memory fails but I don't even know if I was considered independent by the 1994-1995 school year, when I started graduate school. Somehow, I kind of doubt it, which is ridiculous.

 

Because college is important to us, we have saved since my son's birth for his education. Further, he has saved as well. I view this as our responsibility. It sometimes surprises me when parents state that they do not want their children to assume debt, but then are unwilling to pay. Who then pays? Perhaps we should have a spinoff thread and/or survey.

 

Yep, we're saving. I will not have my kids start off in life the way I did.

[Jane in NC]

It sounds a bit as if you think I was talking about myself? I wasn't. :)

 

If our kids decide to go to college, we'll try to help them. I don't know if we'll be able to or not, but we'd certainly try.

 

I was talking about those whose parents refuse - like mine would have done.

 

I do, actually, disagree COMPLETELY with it being "mandatory".

 

My musings were inspired by your post but not completely directed at you or any individual. This is just something that I have noticed in conversations about college, something that I have been unable to understand.

 

That said, I see you are new here so let me welcome you.

 

Jane

[kpnick in nc]

It's been 15 years since I graduated college, so this may have changed. I remember, when completing the FAFSA, there was a place where you indicated which forms of aid you were considering. I distinctly remember indicating that I was not interested in any type of Parent loans, as that was not possible for my parents either. Again, that was a while back, and you're past that point now. Something to look for next year. :001_smile:

[msrift]

It's been 10+ years since working in financial aid, so I'm not up on the latest, but I'm sure some things are still the same. I worked at a public university, so some things might be different for a private college.

 

The student is considered dependent, and therefore the parent's info is needed, unless one of 6 conditions are met: 23 years old, married, has a dependent that the student is 50% responsible for, is in graduate school, is an orphan/ward of the court, or is a veteran. Unless you fall into one of these categories, it is nearly impossible to be declared independent. (We once had a student whose parents were both in prison, but she had a grandparent guardian and therefore was not considered independent.)

 

If you apply for aid, the university will provide an aid package to make up the difference between cost of attendance (tuition, room, board, fees, books, misc expenses) and your EFC. This package can be made up of scholarships, grants, work study, subsidized student loans, unsubsidized student loans, and parent loans, generally in that order. There is a finite amount of grant and work study money available to be awarded, and once it is gone, you're out of luck. That's one of the reasons it is so important to apply early.

 

There is a limit on the amount of loans the student can be awarded, which generally increases slightly based on class (seniors are eligible for more than freshman).

 

The parent loan has the least restrictions, and so tends to be the biggest variable in the award. If there is no other money available to award, the package might very well consist of the maximum student loans, with the balance in parent loans. IIRC, if you apply for the parent loan and are denied, the student is eligible for higher amounts of the unsubsidized student loans.

[Impish]

Is it just me, or is the government reaching into your pocket and deciding how much of your money you have to contribute a wee bit nuts?

[LibraryLover]

A lot of these young adults may have been declared financially 'independent'. That is, the child is financially cut off from the parents. The parent does not claim the child on their income tax, and the offspring does not live at the same address as their parents. Technically, this means no financial contact at all. This is a pretty big deal, but I have heard stories of families doing this so their child could get better/more FA. Is it right? No. But that is one reason parents are held so accountable these days.

 

:iagree:

 

What happens to the student whose parents flat out refuse?

 

(I never went to college, but my parents wouldn't have given me a red penny at 18. We didn't exactly get along back then...)

Edited August 12, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Joker]

I found this on the FAFSA website about how to determine independent status. I didn't realise it had become so difficult.

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

A lot of these young adults are declared financially 'independent'. That is, the child is financially cut off from the parents. The parent does not claim the child on their income tax, and the offspring does not live at the same address as their parents. Technically, this means no financial contact at all.

 

It used to be that this would help you. It changed. I received no financial support from my parents, didn't live at home, was not claimed by my parents' taxes and it didn't matter one iota.

[LibraryLover]

Now, now. All you libertarians out there...Do parents not have a greater responsibility towards their children than the government?

 

If you want a free or less expensive college education, you have to move to a socilaist country. Like Finland or Scotland....or Canada. Or some other country that has universal health care.

 

Or stick to state schools and live at home. Take one class at a time over time at a CC. Or save up. Or be an elite athlete (much more money available). Or fill out the forms and cross your fingers.

 

You could also be wealthy. Boston Universtity even has luxury dorms.

Edited August 12, 2010 by LibraryLover

[6packofun]

 

Yep, we're saving. I will not have my kids start off in life the way I did.

 

Similar situation here, so...how are you saving? I've heard time and again that parents should put all of their savings into retirement which you can borrow against without penalty for your child's education--unless you won't be old enough to do that (like us) when your first child goes to college. LOL So much for that plan!

[LibraryLover]

It used to be that this would help you. It changed. I received no financial support from my parents, didn't live at home, was not claimed by my parents' taxes and it didn't matter one iota.

 

It's very difficult these days to be declared independent. However, it does allow for more FA.

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

Similar situation here, so...how are you saving? I've heard time and again that parents should put all of their savings into retirement which you can borrow against without penalty for your child's education--unless you won't be old enough to do that (like us) when your first child goes to college. LOL So much for that plan!

 

Well, we are very lucky that DH will have a considerable military retirement starting well before the kids are college-bound. We have planned for it to cover our necessary living expenses (mortgage, insurance, utilities, etc.). He will simultaneously be earning in whatever civilian job he moves into after he gets out. That is what allows us to save a bit more generously than we would otherwise be able to do. Also, he should be able to pass down some benefits of his G.I. Bill to at least one of the kids.

 

For our oldest, we have done our state's guaranteed tuition plan. (His birth month was the last month it was offered or I would have done it for all. I might not have done it if I lived anywhere else but I liked the TX plan and our state is big enough that there are plenty of excellent options for using the plan). The tuition portion of his education will be completely paid for 4 years from this month. Otherwise, we are just plugging away at saving.

[LibraryLover]

Similar situation here, so...how are you saving? I've heard time and again that parents should put all of their savings into retirement which you can borrow against without penalty for your child's education--unless you won't be old enough to do that (like us) when your first child goes to college. LOL So much for that plan!

 

 

We save/ed. My oldest is a worker bee and has not been without some sort of work since he was about 11.

 

The amount needed for multiple children is staggering. We are trying to be as creative as we can, and we love state schools. :) I have one who wants to live at home, and I am all !!Yes! I loved my college experience, but I think living at home at first is a beautiful thing in this economy.

[Dana]

 

What happens to the student whose parents flat out refuse?

 

 

Dh worked to make up his parents expected contribution as well as his own. Each year he was supposed to contribute more since he had earned more. :glare:

 

He graduated in a bit of debt although we did manage to get it paid off in the 10 years, so that was good. He also was at a state university so tuition wasn't as bad - and this was before textbooks were so expensive. The most I paid for a text was $80 and that included software. The calculus text was only $50.

[KS_]

I've been out of college awhile now, and was independent when I went, so my loan process was a little different, but one thing that amazed me was how they really threw all this loan money at me, but *never* once outlined how much it would cost to pay back each month when I got done. I tried to be conservative in what I borrowed and didn't take all the money they offered, but it still made for a considerable payment when I got done with school. My cousin, though, was not as conservative, and ended up with a huge loan payment each month and I'm not sure she was able to pay it.

[LibraryLover]

I am always floored by stories of people who borrow without knowing what they are borrowing. Although, I admit these packages can seem confusing, and the costs are excessive. 45-55k for *one* year at private college? Insanity.

Edited August 12, 2010 by LibraryLover

[KidsHappen]

Yes. That happened right around 1992.

 

I went to college in the eighties and I had problems then. As I mentioned, I was already married and had two children and I still had to get a letter from my father stating that I was no longer his dependent. Back then the age of independancy was 25. That's enough time to finish both a Bachelor's and Master's degree.

[KidsHappen]

We save/ed. My oldest is a worker bee and has not been without some sort of work since he was about 11.

 

The amount needed for multiple children is staggering. We are trying to be as creative as we can, and we love state schools. :) I have one who wants to live at home, and I am all !!Yes! I loved my college experience, but I think living at home at first is a beautiful thing in this economy.

 

My dd is going to a state school but she is going as an non-resident which means she might as well be going to a private U. The difference in prices is shocking. She is currently living with her sister but intends to make GA her permenant state of residence. Luckily, from what we have been able to figure out, after the first year, if she meets certain requirements to show her intent to do so, they will change her status.

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

one thing that amazed me was how they really threw all this loan money at me, but *never* once outlined how much it would cost to pay back each month when I got done.

 

When I was in school (92-95 was the period for which I got loans), we had to attend a loan class and funds were not disbursed until we went. That was the one thing that was right about the process. I hope they still do that.

[Oakblossoms]

:iagree:

 

What happens to the student whose parents flat out refuse?

 

(I never went to college, but my parents wouldn't have given me a red penny at 18. We didn't exactly get along back then...)

 

Children can apply as independent students. That makes them responsible. But, it might , also, affect their insurance status.

[LibraryLover]

My dd is going to a state school but she is going as an non-resident which means she might as well be going to a private U. The difference in prices is shocking. She is currently living with her sister but intends to make GA her permenant state of residence. Luckily, from what we have been able to figure out, after the first year, if she meets certain requirements to show her intent to do so, they will change her status.

 

We did that for grad school. I think it's great your kids are going to be near each other this way. Now we just have to figure out how to get you there. :001_smile:

[KidsHappen]

Now, now. All you libertarians out there...Do parents not have a greater responsibility towards their children than the government?

 

If you want a free or less expensive college education, you have to move to a socilaist country. Like Finland or Scotland....or Canada. Or some other country that has universal health care.

 

Or stick to state schools and live at home. Take one class at a time over time at a CC. Or save up. Or be an elite athlete (much more money available). Or fill out the forms and cross your fingers.

 

You could also be wealthy. Boston Universtity even has luxury dorms.

 

I am a Libertarian. I do not expect the government to pay for my child's college but nor do I believe that they should actually be an impediment either. In all other cases, a child is considered a legal, independent adult at age 18. At that point, the parent is no longer financially responsible for the child. If the child wants to go to college and is willing to assume the debt to do so then they should not be prevented from doing so nor should the parents be forced to pay for the college for whatever reason. As far as I can tell, the only reason for this is to lower the financial aid available to each student. This is always a burden to the student as no matter how much money the parents make, they can simply refuse to contribute to college. It is also a burden to any student and/or parent who wishes to contribute but is unable to do so for some reason.

[KS_]

When I was in school (92-95 was the period for which I got loans), we had to attend a loan class and funds were not disbursed until we went. That was the one thing that was right about the process. I hope they still do that.

 

I had to go to a similar class (a one-time thing) - but I don't remember them ever going through how much the monthly payments would be, only that with a certain loan it would be $50 a month (just one particular loan). I was in school from 93-97.

[Brilliant]

I imagine the reason it's so hard to exclude parental income is because if it were easier, EVERY student would declare independence even if it weren't true. If family means were ignored, every 18yo in America would be eligible for full-ride need-based scholarships. How tempting it would be for every parent to declare, "You're cut off! Wink-wink, nudge-nudge," and let the student get the scholarships.

 

I don't know what the solution is, but I guess the PTB decided it was better to stop fraud by making it very difficult, even knowing that there are some 18-23 year olds who would fall through the financial aid cracks because of their family's refusal to help despite the means to do so.

[Renee in NC]

Is it just me, or is the government reaching into your pocket and deciding how much of your money you have to contribute a wee bit nuts?

 

The gov't isn't telling you that. It is telling you how much the *gov't* is willing to pay/subsudize. The gov't does not require a parent to pay for college. If it were possible to be considered "independent" at 18, then the gov't would be paying for everyone to go to college.

 

In European and Asian countries, the gov't pays for the education, but that right is earned, is it not? There are only a certain number of "spots" and the top students get those, right?

 

Here in the US, *anyone* can go to college as long as they can pay for it.

[LibraryLover]

College costs can be a huge burden.

 

I am a Libertarian. I do not expect the government to pay for my child's college but nor do I believe that they should actually be an impediment either. In all other cases, a child is considered a legal, independent adult at age 18. At that point, the parent is no longer financially responsible for the child. If the child wants to go to college and is willing to assume the debt to do so then they should not be prevented from doing so nor should the parents be forced to pay for the college for whatever reason. As far as I can tell, the only reason for this is to lower the financial aid available to each student. This is always a burden to the student as no matter how much money the parents make, they can simply refuse to contribute to college. It is also a burden to any student and/or parent who wishes to contribute but is unable to do so for some reason.

[LibraryLover]

I know our rmiddle class elatives in their corner of Europe have not had any issues getting into various colleges. The gap between the best and the 'worst' schools is typically not huge. European young people are pretty much the same as North American young people. Some are very serious about school, and some are not. It's not any more difficult for the average person to go to college in much of Europe than it is in the states. (enormous personal cost/student debt burden, of course). If you are talking about South Korea or Japan, that is something very different.

 

The gov't isn't telling you that. It is telling you how much the *gov't* is willing to pay/subsudize. The gov't does not require a parent to pay for college. If it were possible to be considered "independent" at 18, then the gov't would be paying for everyone to go to college.

 

In European and Asian countries, the gov't pays for the education, but that right is earned, is it not? There are only a certain number of "spots" and the top students get those, right?

 

Here in the US, *anyone* can go to college as long as they can pay for it.

Edited August 12, 2010 by LibraryLover

[KidsHappen]

We did that for grad school. I think it's great your kids are going to be near each other this way. Now we just have to figure out how to get you there. :001_smile:

 

If only. All of my girls are together in one place. The house next door to them is still available. I love the house and of course the location is perfect and that would solve the residency problem but unfortunately it's just not going to happen. Due to the market we are currently upside down on our house (Although not as bad as some people. Our market is doing a little better than the national market.) My hubby really doesn't want to leave here. Finally we have been here 7 years. The yougest two barely remember living anywhere else. They are both in middle school, involved in sports and have tons of friends so I think I am stuck until they both graduate. It would be a lot easier to take if the perfect house wasn't available right next door to her.

[Onceuponatime]

ummmm, my daughter gets financial aid and loans though she's not yet 18. She's starting her 3rd full time semester (and 5th total). Our income is figured in for grants, of course; but not for loans, nor were we offered any additional loans in our names.

 

We have had so much easier a time with financial aid. The only time it's been an issue has been special circumstances with hubby losing his job; but that was more just a headache of paperwork and a committee that meets once a week.

 

I'm sorry y'all (and it seems a lot of people) have so much trouble with this process. We'll be thankful things have been pretty easy for us :)

 

Same here. My son started school at 17 and we've never had to sign for any loans. We've never applied for parent loans either.

[Renee in NC]

I know our rmiddle class elatives in Europe have not had any issues getting into various colleges. The gap between the best and the 'worst' schools is also not typically huge. European young people are pretty much the same as North American young people. Some are very serious about school, and some are not. It's not any more difficult for the average person to go to college in much of Europe than it is in the states.

 

So everyone in Europe goes to college for free? Even the slackers? Or are they tracked into other options? So, for example, if British students don't work hard and get those AP equivalents (A levels?) they can still go to college?

[LibraryLover]

So everyone in Europe goes to college for free? Even the slackers? Or are they tracked into other options? So, for example, if British students don't work hard and get those AP equivalents (A levels?) they can still go to college?

 

I wasn't thinking about UK. I always forget UK is part of Europe. ;) My relatives are not in UK.

 

But yes, even slackers can go to college. I have one dear, but slacker nephew, who managed to graduate. lol No debt. Not free, but easily managed on a middle class family salary.

 

A great place to go to college is Finland. It's free. To anyone. If you are from another country and are admitted to a college in Finland, you can go. (You'll need a place to live, but tution is covered).

Edited August 12, 2010 by LibraryLover

[edithcrawley]

I imagine the reason it's so hard to exclude parental income is because if it were easier, EVERY student would declare independence even if it weren't true. If family means were ignored, every 18yo in America would be eligible for full-ride need-based scholarships. How tempting it would be for every parent to declare, "You're cut off! Wink-wink, nudge-nudge," and let the student get the scholarships.

 

I don't know what the solution is, but I guess the PTB decided it was better to stop fraud by making it very difficult, even knowing that there are some 18-23 year olds who would fall through the financial aid cracks because of their family's refusal to help despite the means to do so.

 

 

:iagree: By requiring people to either be married or have kids, it makes it harder for people to commit fraud with the FAFSA. I'm not saying that there aren't people who still do try to commit fraud, I imagine some people get "married" at age 18 so they are independent for FAFSA purposes.

[Renee in NC]

I wasn't thinking bout UK. I always forget UK is part of Europe. ;) My relatives are not in UK.

 

But yes, even slackers can go to college. I have one dear, but slacker nephew, who managed to graduate. lol

 

So how does the gov't pay for all the students who want to go, to go? That doesn't make sense to me - the cost here would be astronomical if the gov't paid for college for everyone.

 

I just did a search on Germany college attendance and it seems it is very difficult if you don't get into gymnasium at a younger age. That matches what my German cousin told me in the 80s.

[LibraryLover]

I am not up on every European country's requirements.

 

Oh, and t looks like Finland is going to be charging fees to international students.

 

http://universityusability.wordpress.com/2008/08/22/finland-likely-to-charge-tuition-fees-to-international-students-in-2010/

 

Believe me, knowing the low tuition my Euro relatives have paid out in college costs for their kids is a tough nut to swallow. I'm jealous. One would like to think the education is poor, or that the schools have impossible entry requirements...only because it seems so...unfair... but the fact is there are places in the world where regular young people can attend excellent colleges and unis without their families having to mortgage their homes, or without young people burdened with enormous debt.

 

We could argue alll day about socialist systems and how they are all going to hell in a handbasket ...but then ... some would say the same about the US. I wish college was not so crazy- expensive for so many people.

 

 

So how does the gov't pay for all the students who want to go, to go? That doesn't make sense to me - the cost here would be astronomical if the gov't paid for college for everyone.

 

I just did a search on Germany college attendance and it seems it is very difficult if you don't get into gymnasium at a younger age. That matches what my German cousin told me in the 80s.

Edited August 12, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Renee in NC]

I am not up on every European country's requirements.

 

Oh, and t looks like Finland is going to be charging fees to international students.

 

http://universityusability.wordpress.com/2008/08/22/finland-likely-to-charge-tuition-fees-to-international-students-in-2010/

 

I see. I only know of the UK and Germany, so I (wrongly) assumed that most of Europe was the same way.

 

As far as I know, China and India are that way as well - at least from what I have read (entrance based on high stakes testing.)

 

ETA: It seems to get into colleges in Finland, you have to pass an entrance exam, which for most programs is only in Finnish or Swedish. Even IB students have to pass the exam.

 

ETA AGAIN (cause you keep editing your post): I am not arguing against "socialist" institutions at all. I actually think it is a wonderful idea that college is free. However, I don't think it can be free and be available to all, which is what I thought it was like in Europe. Basic education? Yes. Free university for everyone? I don't think it can work that way. It *is* like health care - it has to be rationed. In other countries where the gov't foots the bill, it is rationed by availability. Here in the US, it is rationed by either who can afford to pay or who is truly destitute enough to get the gov't to pay for it. The middle struggles the hardest. Same for college.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Renee in FL

[Gwenhwyfar]

.

 

The student is considered dependent, and therefore the parent's info is needed, unless one of 6 conditions are met: 23 years old, married, has a dependent that the student is 50% responsible for, is in graduate school, is an orphan/ward of the court, or is a veteran. Unless you fall into one of these categories, it is nearly impossible to be declared independent.

 

23?!

 

So someone who is 20, living in their own apartment, working, not the least bit financially supported by his/her parents --- would be considered "dependent" ?

 

That's nuts. :001_huh:

[distancia]

ER is a junior, and his first two years, EVERYTHING--including books, choir uniforms, and even his backpack--was covered by scholarships....He had no choice but to transfer. He attended a private Christian college, and is transferring to another private Christian college (same denomination in the same state)...yet somehow, ER has been awarded FAR fewer scholarships at the second college.

 

Recently I learned (we have been touring colleges) that the majority of schools give the most generous scholarships to incoming freshmen. These are seen as "enticements" to obtain--and retain--the best freshmen. Yes, the scholarships last for 4 years, but they are primarily awarded to freshmen ONLY.

 

Unfortunately, transfer students lose out on many of these scholarships. Ther just aren't as many available to (transfer) upperclassmen.

 

IMHO it is a very befuddled way of thinking. If I ran a college, I would want to expend my funds on tried-and-true upperclassmen and transfer students. I wouldn't want to put out all that funding for freshmen, who typically bomb out at a higher rate than established, motivated, upperclassmen.

[Renee in NC]

Recently I learned (we have been touring colleges) that the majority of schools give the most generous scholarships to incoming freshmen. These are seen as "enticements" to obtain--and retain--the best freshmen. Yes, the scholarships last for 4 years, but they are primarily awarded to freshmen ONLY.

 

Unfortunately, transfer students lose out on many of these scholarships. Ther just aren't as many available to (transfer) upperclassmen.

 

IMHO it is a very befuddled way of thinking. If I ran a college, I would want to expend my funds on tried-and-true upperclassmen and transfer students. I wouldn't want to put out all that funding for freshmen, who typically bomb out at a higher rate than established, motivated, upperclassmen.

 

By offering full scholarships to the highest academic achievers they can attract, they can raise their freshman profile. By doing so, they attract even higher caliber students (who may have more money.) The school I went into the mid-90s offered me a full tution scholarship because of my SAT score - I was a high school drop out with my GED, but my SAT score was *much* higer than their average at the time.

 

If I were applying today, as the same student I was then, I probably wouldn't get in, much less get a full scholarship!

 

ETA: And tuition is more than twice what it was when I attended 15 years ago.