S/O what is wrong with formality?

[IsabelC]

It's pretty clear even from the responses above that there is a lot of variation due to context, whether geographical, cultural or socio-economic.

 

Just as an example, many people feel that being called Title Lastname signifies good manners and respect. In contrast, I find being addressed as 'Mrs Lastname' to be not only disrespectful, but also insincere, because 99% of the people who do this are salespeople from call centers who are only doing it because their script so instructs. (This is a generalization, though. If the person is elderly and conservative, or from another culture, I would assume that they are simply saying what is appropriate and polite for them.) If any person in the caring professions addressed me as Mrs I would feel that they were being cold and unfriendly. And an envelope addressed to 'Mrs Husband's-first-name Lastname' will be consigned to the fire while the steam comes out of my ears!

 

I do try to avoid offending other people unnecessarily too, though. So if I ever make it to the US I will be sure to Sir and Ma'am and Mr and Mrs everybody unless advised otherwise.

 

Btw what's with the thing about pyjamas? Is this some new trend that has yet to make it over here? I thought I was ultra feral letting my kids go out in bare feet, but I wouldn't dream of going out in pyjamas.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Hotdrink

[Haiku]

Btw what's with the thing about pyjamas?

 

Apparently it's cool to show how laid-back and relaxed you are to go out and about in your pajama pants and slippers. My dd15 tried this once. (Once!) She didn't even make it across the threshold.

 

I think these people look like idiots.

 

I was in a store and one of the check-out girls was wearing her pajama pants. I asked her if she forgot to get dressed before she came to work. She had no idea what to say.

 

Tara

[Danestress]

It doesn't seem formal to me to call someone by their last name. However, not doing so doesn't seem like "fake intimacy." It just seems like a cultural difference. No one in America seems to agree on what our "culture" dictates as the rules. It's like we each have our own culture:)

 

Being polite - responding to invitations, writing thank you notes, etc, doesn't really seem "formal" to me. Almost all Americans use casual note cards to do these things. In my family, we definitely write thank you notes, but I would not call them formal. They are just notes.

 

I think Californians are less "formal" than maybe people in the South where I live because social climbing works differently. This is just my impression, and I could be all wrong - and things are changing. But it seems to me that in some places, you can get social status by making a huge amount of money. Regardless of your family background, money talks.

 

In other places, "new money" has a lot less impact. My sister asked a friend's new bride recently how many people live in her Southern city (correct answer, 800,000). Her answer? "Well, there are about 30 families that really matter."

 

You can be pretty sure that making a lot of money in your sheet metal business isn't going get you promoted into being one of those families, lol (and I say that as the daughter and grand daughter of metal workers). I think in places like this, people are more motivated to develop really nice "formal" manners because it helps them appear to have some breeding and to hide their middle or lower class roots. Isn't that how etiquette books really became popular? Finishing school graduates already knew how to address envelopes and set a table properly. It was the middle class women who wanted to appear a bit more refned who had to study up.

[FaithManor]

I agree with Chucki and especially about the baggy, waggy pants. I have always wanted to carry a bucket of spackle with me to the mall and threaten kids with having their "crack" filled if they refuse to hike those jeans up! But, of course, this would be inappropriate contact and since I believe in manners, that means I can't voice my opinion to them. But, I'd like to know where these kids are going to get jobs if this is the reputation they carve out for themselves.

 

My dad recently interviewed two men - one was a younger adult but still should have had a little man sense. The thirty-something fellow immediately started off the interview calling dad by his first name and acting like he owned the place...very assuming. He didn't get the job. The second guy wore b*tt crack pants and a stained tee-shirt. He referred to dad as, "Pops"! No job for him either.

 

Something needs to be done about the lack of propriety. DD has EMT friends that can't get hired even though there are job openings. She's tried to convince them that they need to leave their cleavage where it belongs for the interview, speak professionally, and dress up for the interview - show that it is really important to them. They don't get it! Honestly, it just doesn't occur to them that they would be representing a medical response company and the university hospital. As first responders, they will be the FIRST impression of those facilities. That means, take it seriously and be professional! She feels like she bangs her head against the wall. Of course, they just don't get why it is that she's already guaranteed a job and isn't even out of paramedic school yet. Hmmm...could it be that she wears professional clothing to every class, studies to get the top grades, speaks very respectfully to everyone whether they deserve that respect or not, is careful of what she says and how she says it, and is the first to volunteer for every opportunity for extra training?

 

The problems of propriety are absolutely GLARING in an economy in which the job market is this tight. Employers do not have to settle for whom ever they can get. There is a plethora of qualified applicants and so those with the most common sense (which a lot of manners/propriety is attributed to good ole fashioned c.s.) will get the prize.

 

Faith

[simka2]

I just believe in natural consequence...If a telemarketer calls me and attempts to call me by my first name...there not going to make a sale! I think it's more disrespectful to keep hounding me when I say.."No, I'm not interested." I get really upset by this, and even thoough I know they are following a prompted screen...I figure the more upset more of us get eventually the compnaies will have to take a little notice! :)

 

Other than that I'm pretty casual...my mother is more casual than I am. So for everyone who thinks it's just generational it's not. The last time my mom wore a dress was to my wedding 11 yrs ago!

[coralloyd]

Apparently it's cool to show how laid-back and relaxed you are to go out and about in your pajama pants and slippers. My dd15 tried this once. (Once!) She didn't even make it across the threshold.

 

I think these people look like idiots.

 

I was in a store and one of the check-out girls was wearing her pajama pants. I asked her if she forgot to get dressed before she came to work. She had no idea what to say.

 

Tara

 

I don't know a gentle way to say this. So here it goes.

I think the attitude that people have toward people that are casual (pjs , baggy pants) is the rude thing, not the wearing of such things. I would rather have a girl in her pjs check me out than hear someone say this to her. She is just wear the pjs as a style or for comforts sake. She is not out to offend others. You were out to offend her. Manners are way more than outward trappings IMO.

[Haiku]

I think the attitude that people have toward people that are casual (pjs , baggy pants) is the rude thing, not the wearing of such things.

 

Ok. :)

 

But when I go to a store and spend my money, I want the people who work there to at least act like they give a cr@p, even if they don't. I can't believe that the manager of an establishment would allow an employee to wear pajamas to work.

 

And I wasn't out to offend her. I was out to let her know how her clothing (or lack thereof) came across to people. I didn't snarl at her. I smiled and had a bit of a laugh in my voice, but I think I got my message across anyway. :)

 

Tara

[Guest]

...I love dresses and would love to wear the dresses of a couple of hundred years ago, gloves, parasols. So romantic! Although I dress like everyone else today I think our clothes today are generally ugly and boring.

 

I think we should all start wearing these types of dresses... they are so pretty! Glad I'm not the only one who has thought this. :)

[Mejane]

And I wasn't out to offend her. I was out to let her know how her clothing (or lack thereof) came across to people. I didn't snarl at her. I smiled and had a bit of a laugh in my voice, but I think I got my message across anyway. :)

 

Tara

 

I would venture to say you may have done her a favor. That kind of outfit (and the attitude that goes with it) is not going to help her get ahead in her career, whether at a store or elsewhere. I also wonder about management who allow kids to show up in pj's. What are they thinking?

[brehon]

Something needs to be done about the lack of propriety. DD has EMT friends that can't get hired even though there are job openings. She's tried to convince them that they need to leave their cleavage where it belongs for the interview, speak professionally, and dress up for the interview - show that it is really important to them. They don't get it! Honestly, it just doesn't occur to them that they would be representing a medical response company and the university hospital. As first responders, they will be the FIRST impression of those facilities. That means, take it seriously and be professional! She feels like she bangs her head against the wall. Of course, they just don't get why it is that she's already guaranteed a job and isn't even out of paramedic school yet. Hmmm...could it be that she wears professional clothing to every class, studies to get the top grades, speaks very respectfully to everyone whether they deserve that respect or not, is careful of what she says and how she says it, and is the first to volunteer for every opportunity for extra training?

 

The problems of propriety are absolutely GLARING in an economy in which the job market is this tight. Employers do not have to settle for whom ever they can get. There is a plethora of qualified applicants and so those with the most common sense (which a lot of manners/propriety is attributed to good ole fashioned c.s.) will get the prize.

 

Faith

 

I don't know whether you had a chance to read my post on this thread or not. I'm a paramedic with almost 13 years experience (gah! has it been that long?!) and I'm also an FTO. My post was in regard to one particular experience with my most recent new hire. Over the past several hiring cycles, we (the county agency for which I work) have noticed that a substantial number of applicants who come straight from school have many of the same tendencies as those I bolded above. Most of them also don't receive job offers; unfortunately, some (including the aforementioned new hire) are hired. [Well, he doesn't have the cleavage problem ;)] What we've noticed is that invariably these people are the future problem children of the system -- lack of good customer service and clinical and operational deficiencies which aren't corrected because they refuse to believe that they can improve.

 

You're absolutely right that, at least in EMS/hospital jobs (especially in my area), there are plenty of qualified candidates. It really sounds like your dd is someone my system would LOVE to hire -- hard working and willing to learn. Tell her -- from one perhaps-slightly-more-than-a-little-jaded medic -- to keep up the good work and good luck with her future plans!

[Rosie_0801]

Ok, here's one. The workman from the body corporate just arrived. I'm fine being greeted with "Hiya Love." I'm not fine with being greeted with a cigarette at my door.

 

:ack2:

 

Rosie

[Mrs Mungo]

I think we should all start wearing these types of dresses... they are so pretty! Glad I'm not the only one who has thought this. :)

 

I think we should all dress in costume all of the time. I want to be a pirate though, I don't want to wear a frilly dress.

[sagira]

You know I read somewhere that one of the main reasons Americans don't have help (housekeeping/cook/butler) is because it was so undemocratic to have it. American housewives could take care of all that on their own.

 

I wonder if we can bring back some level of formality that we can bring back household help as the norm with it. :lol::lol:

 

ETA: Making household help the norm again could help with the high unemployment.

 

Amen to that! I need household help badly! (Up all night thinking of strategies on how to get the house enough in order so the help can come in and clean.)

 

In regards to formality, my mom is always wondering how come there is so much formalwear on sale but people dress way too casually most of the time, even for more formal occasions. I don't mind dressing up for an occasion, but I wouldn't want to dress up every day. I like being a homeschool teacher very much for this reason too.

 

I, too, detest pantyhose! Ugh, I like it as much as corsets bleh.

Edited June 23, 2010 by sagira

[Elinor Everywhere]

 

At a formal dinner party, you do *not* bring food (wine or chocolates to be consumed at your hostess's leisure is oK -- a dessert or other dish for that night would actually be very rude) -- you bring a hostess *gift*, but NOT something that you expect to be consumed that day/night. . . and the hostess serves, cleans up, etc.

 

 

 

We have dinner parties (like you describe) several times a year, and then we also have a ton of casual entertaining around the pool or fireplace or boat (whatever the season/locale).

 

On the formal side, I agree about bringing food/wine - I always feel like we're offending the person *bringing* the wine, but my dh is quite the gourmet cook & part of the fun (and yumminess) is pairing his foods to a specific wine. If someone brings wine (and they usually do), we will thank them, but set it in our wine rack or on a side table. Also, we eat in the dining room and do the dishes after everyone has left - although I must admit to saving wine glasses & other breakables until the next day... ;)

 

For the more casual dinners, everybody congregates in the kitchen & has a glass of wine, munches appetizers, and talks to each other and my dh while he cooks. We often set up a buffet on the kitchen table, so everybody can fill their plate and sit where they like - outside by the pool or indoors in the living room or dining room. Both ways work well for us - just depends on our mood, our guests, & the type of food my dh feels like making.

[elegantlion]

I think we should all dress in costume all of the time. I want to be a pirate though, I don't want to wear a frilly dress.

 

I just spit on my computer...so I had to find a picture. Unfortunately you have to be very careful when you google "kitten" and "Pirate costume" at the same time. :lol:

 

 

 

 

[katemary63]

I think we should all dress in costume all of the time. I want to be a pirate though, I don't want to wear a frilly dress.

 

:lol::lol: I don't own a dress and don't care to. I've got scratched up, bruised up legs all the time (farmer!) and have vowed never to wear another pair of panyhose in my life. So that leaves me with dress pants. I have exactly ONE pair that I wear to weddings AND funerals with a button down blouse and flats. The rest of the time I am in jeans and cowboy boots or tanks and shorts because it is so dang hot in AR in the summer. (When it's 105 degrees and 90% humidity, I don't care who sees my scratches or bruises! LOL)

 

I personally can't stand formality for formality's sake. Sure, there is a time and place, but in my life, those times and places are few and far between THANK GOODNESS! In addition, I don't think respect has anything to do with formality. I will say, "Yes, Sir/ Ma'am." and display good manners no matter how I'm dressed and so do my kids.

 

Here's another thing I hate about formality. It costs too much money! I am a practical, frugal person. When I buy anything, there had better be a darn good reason for it. Personally, I can't find any good reason for dressing up regularily. I consider dressy clothes a waste of money. I don't have that much of it and I've got to be very choosy on how I spend it. If I bought fancy clothes for church, I wouldn't be able to afford my spurs and boots! LOL. Everyone's got to have their priorities and one of mine is the quality family time we spend on our horse hobby. It's much more important to me then having a certain appearance or worrying about what other's think.

 

Sorry if this all has been discussed, I didn't read the whole thread.

[LibraryLover]

I think we should all start wearing these types of dresses... they are so pretty! Glad I'm not the only one who has thought this. :)

 

OK, but not the undies, the corsetts etc etc...am I the only one who watched 1920's House on PBS, or who reads period lit? I would not want to deal with all of that. Pretty or not.

 

Says LL as she types in a little sport skirt ( black with silver swirls pattern) and a really cute sticked/gathered black GAP tank, with comfy Keens on her feet. It's absolutely sweltering here and no way is she up to peeling off layers...

[3lilreds in NC]

I just spit on my computer...so I had to find a picture. Unfortunately you have to be very careful when you google "kitten" and "Pirate costume" at the same time. :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

THAT IS SO CUTE!!!!!

 

(I don't wear my pajamas in public.)

[jazzyfizzle]

I think we should all dress in costume all of the time. I want to be a pirate though, I don't want to wear a frilly dress.

 

:lol::lol::lol: Wouldn't that be a riot?

[jazzyfizzle]

Apparently it's cool to show how laid-back and relaxed you are to go out and about in your pajama pants ..

 

I was in a store and one of the check-out girls was wearing her pajama pants. I asked her if she forgot to get dressed before she came to work. She had no idea what to say.

 

Tara

 

 

Good for you :thumbup1:

[3littlekeets]

Apparently it's cool to show how laid-back and relaxed you are to go out and about in your pajama pants and slippers. My dd15 tried this once. (Once!) She didn't even make it across the threshold.

 

I think these people look like idiots.

 

I was in a store and one of the check-out girls was wearing her pajama pants. I asked her if she forgot to get dressed before she came to work. She had no idea what to say.

 

Tara

 

Tara, I think I'd love you in real life :-), so I have to ask the question just to pick your brain -- NOT to critique. How is wearing pjs-- a form of pants with two legs, less "pant like" and acceptable for you than other pants, when you fight socially constructed notions such as shaving legs?

 

They both seem to be social constraints decided by others who control our behaviors? And, in some ways, it could be argued that many people (men and women) would find a woman in pjs more acceptable than a woman in nice dress with hairy legs.

 

So, how do "we" in the "royal" we sense decide what is formal, what is acceptable, what is oppressive, etc?

Edited June 24, 2010 by 3littlekeets

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

Tara, I think I'd love you in real life :-), so I have to ask the question just to pick your brain -- NOT to critique. How is wearing pjs-- a form of pants with two legs, less "pant like" and acceptable for you than other pants, when you fight socially constructed notions such as shaving legs?

 

They both seem to be social constraints decided by others who control our behaviors? And, in some ways, it could be argued that many people (men and women) would find a woman in pjs more acceptable than a woman in nice dress with hairy legs.

 

So, how do "we" in the "royal" we sense decide what is formal, what is acceptable, what is oppressive, etc?

Well, I'm obviously not Tara, but I just wanted to say I wear sundresses and capris all the time and I don't shave my legs.

 

I'm not sure if people notice or not, but I'm happily attached and not on the market - so to heck with anyone who has a problem with it.:lol:

[Haiku]

Tara, I think I'd love you in real life :-), so I have to ask the question just to pick your brain -- NOT to critique. How is wearing pjs-- a form of pants with two legs, less "pant like" and acceptable for you than other pants, when you fight socially constructed notions such as shaving legs?

 

If I go to a store and encounter someone who is paid to assist me, I'd rather not be treated like the person could hardly be bothered to get out of bed to do so. Pajamas are for bed or lounging the way bikinis are for swimming, and acting like your job is equivalent to sleeping or lounging (or swimming) is not good customer service.

 

However, my hairy legs make no statement about the relative importance of my job and the people I'm paid to assist. Unless, I guess, I am a porn star or an underwear model. :D

 

Tara

[Mrs Mungo]

I just spit on my computer...so I had to find a picture. Unfortunately you have to be very careful when you google "kitten" and "Pirate costume" at the same time. :lol:

 

Awwwwwwwww!! And I'm sure that would be an undertaking fraught with danger. :lol:

[Parrothead]

Tara, I think I'd love you in real life :-), so I have to ask the question just to pick your brain -- NOT to critique. How is wearing pjs-- a form of pants with two legs, less "pant like" and acceptable for you than other pants, when you fight socially constructed notions such as shaving legs?

 

They both seem to be social constraints decided by others who control our behaviors? And, in some ways, it could be argued that many people (men and women) would find a woman in pjs more acceptable than a woman in nice dress with hairy legs.

 

So, how do "we" in the "royal" we sense decide what is formal, what is acceptable, what is oppressive, etc?

If you think about it, pretty much everything we do is controlled by others. Picking one's nose in public is not socially acceptable. Why?

There are social norms that keep us from living in chaos. And for the most part it takes a long time for change to happen.

 

Look at hippies. 40 years later and people still get worked up about that lifestyle.

[Parrothead]

I don't know a gentle way to say this. So here it goes.

I think the attitude that people have toward people that are casual (pjs , baggy pants) is the rude thing, not the wearing of such things. I would rather have a girl in her pjs check me out than hear someone say this to her. She is just wear the pjs as a style or for comforts sake. She is not out to offend others. You were out to offend her. Manners are way more than outward trappings IMO.

I think there is casual and there is thumbing one's nose at society's rules.

[Parrothead]

Amen to that! I need household help badly! (Up all night thinking of strategies on how to get the house enough in order so the help can come in and clean.)

 

In regards to formality, my mom is always wondering how come there is so much formalwear on sale but people dress way too casually most of the time, even for more formal occasions. I don't mind dressing up for an occasion, but I wouldn't want to dress up every day. I like being a homeschool teacher very much for this reason too.

 

I, too, detest pantyhose! Ugh, I like it as much as corsets bleh.

I'd wear a corset before I wear pantyhose again. And strangely enough I like tights well enough to wear.

[mommabird]

I hate seeing people in the museums in their pajamas. I've really seen this and I cannot fathom what would posses a person to dress like that out in public.

 

 

It seems to be a new trend around here to go out in public in your pajamas. I guess I am old school - raised by depression kids - I'm not always dressed up but I am when it is appropriate - like church, out of respect.

It never occurred to me some people think I am being a snob.

[Mrs Mungo]

It seems to be a new trend around here to go out in public in your pajamas. I guess I am old school - raised by depression kids - I'm not always dressed up but I am when it is appropriate - like church, out of respect.

It never occurred to me some people think I am being a snob.

 

I was raised by young hippies (my parents graduated high school in '69 and '71) and I don't think wearing your PJs in public is okay at all.

[helena]

I do not prefer the "new casualness", although I am far from formal. I think a lot of people find this kind of casual very uncomfortable, especially if your world goes beyond American culture.

 

I was raised by very young parents, and our lives though not so abnormal for the times, was free and hippyish. We are also from So. California.

I think they were torn between tradition and formalities, and forging what they thought was new territory, rejecting their parents uptight and rigid "rules".

I know they were torn, because I was raised thoroughly in both realities. At the end of the day our culture was a rock, and there were always formalities that were practiced there.

 

As an adult and parent, I think I still walk the line, with a dash conservative and tripper. :) Being comfortable is ...well comfortable, but formalities can allow everyone to be comfortable, not just me. I like how I feel when I observe social graces, it's an elevating experience.

I've also had many incredible experiences and opportunities because of my (imperfect) efforts. People notice, and will not only comment or appreciate, but will also bring you into the folds of their world.

 

It's more than obvious that I wasn't raised in an American upper class home, I'm not the most articulate, and gentle person. I don't pretend to be. I just try. I make a sincere effort to do my part, I read books on formalities, I raise my girls the same.

 

I also feel that my faith expects me to follow certain formalities and tradition. None of which are without purpose. I do all of this with a happy and humble heart.

 

ps

We really dress up when we go to the theater. I feel like it's a chance to immerse yourself in the thrill of it all and adds to the excitement of the evening. I think it also shows respect to the performers.

Edited June 24, 2010 by helena