s/o of overreacting

[OhM]

The rock-jumping thread reminded me of my own "overreacting or not?" issue.

 

Dd came home from the church youth group's annual camping trip last year with a story that next year the leader wants to do this "cool" exercise with them. He wants to take them into the woods after dark, drop each one off by themselves, and leave them to sit absolutely still. The purpose is some sort of sensory deprivation/experiencing nature thing, and I think vaugely some sort of trust thing (though I think mostly it's because he did it as a kid at a school camping trip and thought it was cool ;))

 

We're social friends with the leader (who is a 27yo married father of two young boys), so I casually asked him why he thought this was a good idea. (Real casual, huh?) It ended badly - and I went away feeling that he was completely ignoring and maybe even ridiculing my concerns.

 

So, am I overreacting? I'm a small-town/rural girl, but didn't grow up on a farm or with woods to play in. I like to hike, but I respect and fear the wildlife around me when I do. I think sitting absolutely still at night could set you up for an animal encounter that the typical adult, nevermind teenagers, wouldn't be prepared for.

 

Or am I being fearful and silly?

 

So the camping trip will come up again in August. He's probably forgotten all about it, but unless you talk me down, I might not let my dd's go without a signed, notarized statement that they won't be left to sit alone in the woods after dark.:lol:

 

I should say - I'm normally pretty permissive on the topics that come up here. My kids are moderately free-range, ride bikes around our small town, and heck, I probably wouldn't have batted an eye at the rock-jumping stuff. (But dd wouldn't have been talked into it - she isn't a daredevil by any means.) But something about this terrifys me! So am I overreacting?

[Remudamom]

It sounds stupid (and boring) to me, and I wouldn't make my dd do it. How long are they supposed to sit there?

 

Maybe he thinks if they sit there for a while they'll get in touch with nature or something??? To tell the truth, it sounds like something a city boy would come up with.

[Lolly]

We are a woodsy family. This does not sound like the best idea.

[2cents]

I would have to pass on that exercise. I think it is risky leaving kids in the woods by themselves. What if one get panicky and takes off? If the idea is to experience 'sensory deprivation' then there is a possibility that some won't relate to that. What about wild animal encounters? Not to mention, isn't there some kind of Boy Scout rule that you never go off alone in the forest? I think it is a dumb and irresponsible idea.

[Jan in SC]

Well, it depends...We used to do a similar exercise at a camp with the jr. high campers. They were blindfolded and given a rope to hold and we wound through the woods. They were placed idividually in a safe location and left alone for several minutes. Then they were gathered back for another short walk to the outdoor chapel where the blindfolds were removed and a Eucharist service was held by candlelight.(mostly citronella!)

 

The purpose was to listen for a still small voice, not necessarily nature. It was a favorite activity of campers. There were also lots of counselors and adults around to help and in reality everyone was fairly close together. It was very safe!

[Supertechmom]

We are a woodsy family. This does not sound like the best idea.

 

I would have to pass on that exercise. I think it is risky leaving kids in the woods by themselves. What if one get panicky and takes off? If the idea is to experience 'sensory deprivation' then there is a possibility that some won't relate to that. What about wild animal encounters? Not to mention, isn't there some kind of Boy Scout rule that you never go off alone in the forest? I think it is a dumb and irresponsible idea.

 

 

:iagree:An amazing threat in the woods are ...Tree HOLES! YEp, tree holes. The tree dies, the stump rots and a hole is left. These holes can be big enough for an adult to slide into and disappear. And they are not all that easy to see or notice. I walked around the back of our tent to drive in a tent stake and fell into one. Only one leg went in and it went right up to my pelvis and i couldn't feel any ground under that leg in the hole!!!! Had I stepped right, I would have fallen straight down in the hole for who knows how far. And like a true boy scout, I yelled for help and then used it for a real life example of why you never go off alone in the woods or vary off the track without precautions and preparation. :D

 

parking excited teens in the dark in the woods alone is just not a good idea unless the preparation has been done and is extensive with enough supervision. And those tree holes are sneaky little things!:lol:

[SquirrellyMama]

I've gone on night hikes where the guide had us sit in the dark by ourselves. I do find the exercise to be really cool and fun. You do have to use your other senses. My dd sat with me though so I'm not sure how well she would do on her own but she is only 9. I think older kids should be fine.

[Parrothead]

Nah, I'd have to let dd pass on this one. Sitting alone in the woods around here might net a close up and personal encounter with a bear.

[MelanieM]

I think it depends on how it's all set up. Take a kid into the woods and drop him off in a random spot and leave him there alone? Not such a great idea. Take a kid into the woods to an area that has been pre-selected, drop him off and walk just out of sight and wait quietly for him to have his experience before going to get him again? Sure, if the kid is willing, I'd be ok with that.

[Murphy101]

It sounds stupid (and boring) to me, and I wouldn't make my dd do it. How long are they supposed to sit there?

 

Maybe he thinks if they sit there for a while they'll get in touch with nature or something??? To tell the truth, it sounds like something a city boy would come up with.

 

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Nicole M]

It sounds stupid (and boring) to me, and I wouldn't make my dd do it. How long are they supposed to sit there?

 

 

 

It wouldn't be boring if you were texting your friends or listening to your iPod. :D And you know these kids would sneak in their devices.

[Carol in Cal.]

It's a common routine in nature awareness classes to have a 'sit spot' where you contemplate nature, pray, journal, sketch--ideally you do this every day, in the same place, observing the changes with the seasons and such. It's significantly salutary.

 

But it's essential to have someone else within at least shouting distance.

 

And at night? Nope, never. Too dangerous. You may be sensorily deprived, but predators are not, and that is not a good combo.

[OhM]

Well, it depends...We used to do a similar exercise at a camp with the jr. high campers. They were blindfolded and given a rope to hold and we wound through the woods. They were placed idividually in a safe location and left alone for several minutes. Then they were gathered back for another short walk to the outdoor chapel where the blindfolds were removed and a Eucharist service was held by candlelight.(mostly citronella!)

 

The purpose was to listen for a still small voice, not necessarily nature. It was a favorite activity of campers. There were also lots of counselors and adults around to help and in reality everyone was fairly close together. It was very safe!

 

This sounds like the experience he had as a jr. high student. Now as the leader, I don't think he has a fully realized plan of how this is carried out safely.

 

Thanks for all the comments. I'll probably bring it up to find out if he's planning to do it, and ask for details of how it will be carried out.

 

My main concern is what another poster mentioned - these are high school aged students - and many of them have a pretty ornery streak. I'm certain they'd find it funny to "disappear" on him.

 

Safety really comes down to a good imagination, doesn't it? You sit back and say, "Okay, what could go horribly wrong with this plan?"

[hillfarm]

I absolutely adore being alone in the woods at night. But alas, I usually have to hurry on some errand or have a very talkative dd or dh with me. On the rare occasions that I have time to actually go out and sit quietly in the woods at night, it is very beautiful, although usually not quiet with all the insect noise, croaking bullfrogs, and night bird calls.

 

My first question would be where are the woods? Are there actually any large predators there, such as bears or mountain lions? If not, then I would scratch that worry. Smaller wildlife generally tends to avoid humans at all costs, although they might gather round and yell/snort at you for invading their territory or their favorite feeding grounds, trying to make you move on.

 

Secondly, I would question the purpose of the activity. What exactly are the kids supposed to gain from this? Perhaps just the challenge of being alone with one's thoughts. If that's the case and you are still not comfortable with the woods thing, possibly your dd can go sit by herself in a more "civilized" area of the camp where there will be no light or activity at night. If this is the stated purpose, then I would question the validity of putting kids in a novel situation to do so. You can't focus on listening for God or your own thoughts if you are terrified by all the night sounds around you or afraid of being attacked.

 

I agree that just dropping kids in random locations is not a good idea, but placing them in specifically designated locations could work fine. I would also ask if the kids could be given a panic button of sorts, perhaps one of those cheapie air horns or something, so that they could call for help if they got in trouble. (Personally, I consider this overkill, but if I were responsible for other people's children, and I didn't know how they would react, then I would probably go to this extent.)

 

I would not get too bent out of shape about this activity for a 15yo dd. I would stress to the camp leadership that I expected this and all camp activities to have a valid purpose, and not just be silliness for the sake of a thrill/chill. I would let them know I expect it to be orderly and well-organized, with safety considerations properly addressed. I would also privately equip dd with a strong pepper spray, not for the wild animals which generally have the good sense to stay away from humans, but to deal with any two-legged predators who might think to take advantage of this situation.

 

It sounds to me like one of those trumped up thrill sessions, talked up so much as to make it a big, hairy deal, when in actuality it would be a whole lot of nothing. Your dd's biggest threat in reality would most likely be bug bites or falling asleep of boredom and falling off the log she was sitting on. Other than providing the kids with a novel location for their introspection, it sounds like the kind of thing that could be just as easily accomplished by having them sit in separate classrooms to be alone with their thoughts. IMO, sitting alone in the dark woods is not a big deal, but it would cause me to carefully examine whether the camp was 1)safety conscious enough across the board, and 2)whether there were enough activities with a point to offset the rather pointless ones.

Edited June 17, 2010 by hillfarm

[StephanieZ]

An Eagle Scout friend of mine (15 yo) recently did some supersecretOrderoftheArrow thing that involved being silent for 24 hours while doing service work outside at a BS camp (individually) and during that time camping out (as a "surprise") alone overnight w/ no supplies other than the clothes on his back. Apparently is a tradition over many years. I don't necc. get it but apparently hasn't/doesn't harm these kids.

[Carol in Cal.]

An Eagle Scout friend of mine (15 yo) recently did some supersecretOrderoftheArrow thing that involved being silent for 24 hours while doing service work outside at a BS camp (individually) and during that time camping out (as a "surprise") alone overnight w/ no supplies other than the clothes on his back. Apparently is a tradition over many years. I don't necc. get it but apparently hasn't/doesn't harm these kids.

 

They have been preparing for YEARS. They know survival skills.

 

In my DD's nature awareness group, an 18 YO recently went through a rite of passage that included an overnight camp out in a shelter that he built himself. The group sang to him to send him on his way, around dusk. He went and built the shelter and slept there, and came back the next morning, to be greeted by the group again. It was very cool, but it was planned. He had already practiced, and in his practices, there was someone who was assigned to check on him every hour or so until he went to sleep. There was a SYSTEM.

 

The plan for these kids just sounds foolish. The mention of sensory deprivation is what caught my attention--that implies deep darkness to me. If there was a system, and someone was in charge, and someone was checking on the kids or at least there was a fallback emergency arrangement, that would be different. The plan as presented reminds me of 'back to the land' people who don't have any idea how to farm, who don't research it, and who just 'trust' that the land will provide, and last at most through one summer.

 

Nature exposure is a wonderfully spiritual thing, but it's not something to be foolish about. A little preparation goes a long way.

[hillfarm]

Just wanted to add that there is NOTHING in this experience that makes me think of sensory deprivation. The night woods are full of sounds, odors, and sights. And anyone who was not familiar with being there would be hyper aware of their surroundings, not cut off from them.

 

True sensory deprivation involves the complete absence of sensory input. This can occasionally be mimicked by placing someone in a situation that they are so familiar with that it does not register in their conscious mind (driving that same stretch of road for the ten thousandth time). But it never comes from being in a new and possibly frightening place, particularly one filled with strange noises.

 

I would also be a bit concerned about the kids that the op says might want to sneak away from their designated spot. Camp pranks abound and they might think to sneak up on other participants to scare them. I would certainly expect supervision for these kids and I would counsel my dd that she would have my full support and permission to pepper spray and knock flat anyone who tried to sneak up on her. We don't play that game. Ever. And I'd suggest she let all the other kids know before hand that she was not to be disturbed without consequences.

[Jana]

When I was in college (at the age of 19) the student leaders did a pack backing trip that involved two nights and three days of solo. We had a designated spot, we were given a book, access to water and a small amount of food (snacks mostly). No sleeping bag, no tarp. The leadership kept an eye on us, but we weren't to make contact with anyone, except for an emergency (for which, we were given a whistle).

 

I was never scared--because I knew there were people "around." But if I was, I knew I could use my whistle to get help.

 

I still remember that experience--it was so outside anything I've ever done. I was cold, hungry and very bored. How often do we allow ourselves to experience such feelings? It was good for me. When faced with something hard I still say, "I've done two nights of solo in the woods, I can do this!"

 

A couple things to think about:

 

You presume that woods are more dangerous at night than the day, are you sure that's true?

 

How much supervision will the kids have? How often will someone check on them? Will they have a whistle?

 

How does your daughter feel about the experience?

[RoughCollie]

Nah, I'd have to let dd pass on this one. Sitting alone in the woods around here might net a close up and personal encounter with a bear.

 

Yup. I agree. Risks outweigh benefits, and frankly, I don't see any benefits.

[Tess in the Burbs]

depends. when I did Outward Bound we had a full 48 hours alone in the woods at a set spot spread out from each other. We had food we had to ration and a small tarp for shelter and our sleeping bag. We were to write in our journal and think. No watch. Just sit and try not to eat all your food up ;-)

 

So what ages is he doing this with?

 

Is there a way to make sure you are ok? We had a rock system at the trail. I had to walk to the trail at morning and knock down my pile of rocks(maybe 3 high...very small, lol). the leaders came by later and stacked them back up. I was to knock them down at some point in the afternoon. I could leave a note if I wanted for someone and they would deliver it. So if I hadn't knocked down my rocks they would hike in and check on me.

 

I will say it was scary. The first night I heard something running in the woods. I heard my closest neighbor scream and I heard the 'animal' running again toward me. it missed my camp, lol. BUT I didn't sleep much that night. It was spooky and I had grown up camping.

 

So yes, you have valid concerns and it might not be the right thing for youth group.

[SilverMoon]

I would pass. There are too many things that can go wrong, and I can't see how it would accomplish his goal.

 

As a scout mom who's been hauled camping in all sorts of forests, I'm convinced there isn't a possibility to be sensory deprived out there. There have been countless times I've wanted to tell the frogs, coyotes or other random animal to shoosh in the middle of the night so I could sleep. :tongue_smilie:

 

Unless it's one of the previously mentioned activities that one of the well-prepared older boys participate in, it is against BSA rules to send scouts into the forest without a buddy companion and a leader knowing exactly where they intend to go. Furthermore a scout wouldn't wander off trail as that goes against the Leave No Trace they're taught at all levels. :001_smile:

[OhM]

You presume that woods are more dangerous at night than the day, are you sure that's true?

 

See, that's the thing - I really have no idea, and I'm not sure anyone else involved does, either! That's kind of what I'm trying to ascertain here - is my ignorance fueling unnecessary fear, or am I right to be cautious?

 

My first question would be where are the woods? Are there actually any large predators there, such as bears or mountain lions?

 

 

There have been an increasing number of bear sightings (though still rare) in the area they'll be staying. There are a good number of wolves.

 

It sounds to me like one of those trumped up thrill sessions, talked up so much as to make it a big, hairy deal, when in actuality it would be a whole lot of nothing.

 

Ha - I think you hit the nail on the head. But as someone else says, the benefits don't seem to outweigh the risks. With such an ill-defined purpose and no soothing words letting me know that this is well-planned, I'll likely stick to the mama bear act on this one.:D

[mommytobees]

I think that sounds flat out stupid.

 

I grew up in an area and we (myself, my friends, most kids I knew) used to spend hours in the woods. Alone. With friends. You name it.

 

I would NOT be having my child do this. My children aren't accustomed to being in the woods. Okay, my kids are younger than your daughter, but taht doesn't change my mind. Unless your child is accustomed to the particulars to the woods they are being "left", I do NOT find it safe.

 

You want local opinion... call up your local Boy Scout community. Ask to speak with someone familiar with camping in the area. Once you find someone, tell him what this youth leader wants to do. See what the BSA leader says.

 

Kris, who spent from age 7 through 15 in the woods, from age 15 through age 16 in the desert, and then 16 through 18 in the woods.... when I realized I hated camping and only hike now as an adult within walking distance of my house or car.