When teachers cheat....

[pqr]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/11/education/11cheat.html?

[Mejane]

Can I just say how little this surprises me? :glare:

[Anne in CA]

Before NCLB I suspect that lots of teachers did the opposite and made their students look bad on purpose. I have a relative that teaches and in the preNCLB years she did not teach her students how to test, or give them pointers on how to test because she didn't want them to have high test scores. You may be surprised at this, but she teaches in a school with mostly Latino students and the other teachers there get very defensive if one teacher has students with test scores that are too good. She told me that any teacher that does a really good job in that school "suffers terribly."

 

The first year after NCLB she was almost fired when her students didn't test well. She started to properly prepare her students and after two years her students did so well that she was promoted to special reading teacher.

 

It is sad to me that her original students were denied the test scores that they could have had, and probably could have used, because of the situation in her school. I do not have an idea if this is common or not, but I would not be surprised if it was.

[amy g.]

I live outside of Houston, and have been aware of teacher's cheating on standardized tests for at least 10 years now. It is so sad when the students are also brought into the crime.

 

One friend actually moved out of state because this was so upsetting for her child.

[Cinder]

Well, I live in GA so this isn't new to me.

 

It's sad, really.

 

 

Cinder

[Willow]

It is only to be expected. In the UK about 120 years ago they had 'payment by results' for school teachers. The inspector would arrive and orally drill the kids. If the kids did not perform the teacher would not get paid. So, obviously, they cheated! the teachers had hand signals etc for the kids. It was abolished as it was so obviously stupid.

 

Lets think this through. First you have to test kids...we know this does not help with their education, how can it...teaching to the test, discouraging creativity, emphasising conformity and safe answers etc, and we know that kids can perform differently on different days (oh, do we know this ;))

 

Now consider being a teacher. You know what the economy is like, you know if your kids don't perform you will lose your job. You are the only breadwinner in your house, you have a mortgage, 3 kids and a dog to support.

 

The test bar gets ever higher...you MUST show progress, a bright class is a nightmare, because next years class may be average.

 

So what do you do?

 

Society has backed good people who only want to do their best for kids into impossible corners and then act surprised when they crack under the pressure.

 

These teachers need our support and sympathy, and the system stinks. Look back at the early years of American education. No tests, no SATS, no impossible hurdles, just teachers left to teach. And an educated populous.

[dansamy]

Our schools here teach to the test. It's common knowledge. The study guides they send home can only be described as miniature versions of the tests. I'm not surprised that teachers are doing this.

[athena1277]

 

Look back at the early years of American education. No tests, no SATS, no impossible hurdles, just teachers left to teach. And an educated populous.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. If they would just let teachers do their jobs, quit worrying about standardized tests and teaching social skills, and put the focus back on LEARNING, children would be so much better off.

[lovemyboys]

It is only to be expected.

 

.......

 

Now consider being a teacher. You know what the economy is like, you know if your kids don't perform you will lose your job. You are the only breadwinner in your house, you have a mortgage, 3 kids and a dog to support.

 

The test bar gets ever higher...you MUST show progress, a bright class is a nightmare, because next years class may be average.

 

So what do you do?

 

 

 

I understand the pressure. Just not sure I agree with the conclusion that it's justified to give up your ethics and integrity ... that cheating is the answer.

 

It's such a sad situation for the students.

[Willow]

I understand the pressure. Just not sure I agree with the conclusion that it's justified to give up your ethics and integrity ... that cheating is the answer.

 

It's such a sad situation for the students.

 

I agree but think about this hypothetical situation.

 

You have a bright class of 30 kids. Just by chance 8 are gifted and 2 are profoundly gifted. Also, just by chance there are almost no LD kids, just say, a couple of bright dyslexics.

 

You are a keen teacher who wants to take this class as far as it can go. But your advice (from the head teacher) is to hold them back as the next class along is different. No gifted kids, a high percentage of LD kids. Your whole school is worried and you are in a terrible bind. Do you teach your bright class, or do you deliberately hold them back.

 

The bright class will pass the test whatever happens, but if you make the teaching monotonous, refuse to offer extension activities etc they will get bored and disruptive and not do all THAT well. Then there will not be such a gap between them and the next class.

 

So do you follow advice and teach this class poorly, and save the schools reputation (and do a major disservice to the kids) or do you teach them to the best of your and their ability, and risk the whole school (and your job in particular as it would be your class that bombed) next year?

 

What would you do?

[StephanieZ]

There is no excuse for this kind of behavior. Personally, I think there should be criminal statutes that should be enforced. We all have lots of pressures in life. Many people have livelihoods that could be secured or improved via cheating. There is no excuse.

 

If they are going to test (which I do believe is appropriate so long as it is not taking up an inordinate amount of time and resources). . .then they should

 

1) create a cheat-resistant system such as having outside staff proctor exams and have a more cheat-proof systems in place. Surely this can be done.

 

2) teachers and admin should be monitored for cheating. . . and punished severely when they do it.

[lovemyboys]

I agree but think about this hypothetical situation.

 

You have a bright class of 30 kids. Just by chance 8 are gifted and 2 are profoundly gifted. Also, just by chance there are almost no LD kids, just say, a couple of bright dyslexics.

 

You are a keen teacher who wants to take this class as far as it can go. But your advice (from the head teacher) is to hold them back as the next class along is different. No gifted kids, a high percentage of LD kids. Your whole school is worried and you are in a terrible bind. Do you teach your bright class, or do you deliberately hold them back.

 

The bright class will pass the test whatever happens, but if you make the teaching monotonous, refuse to offer extension activities etc they will get bored and disruptive and not do all THAT well. Then there will not be such a gap between them and the next class.

 

So do you follow advice and teach this class poorly, and save the schools reputation (and do a major disservice to the kids) or do you teach them to the best of your and their ability, and risk the whole school (and your job in particular as it would be your class that bombed) next year?

 

What would you do?

 

The system is heavy on the testing right now, to be sure, but it is quite disheartening to view the population of teachers, principals and administrators as being devoid of any other answers or methods except for cheating or otherwise gaming the system.

 

Talk about low expectations.

 

And of course the students and what's best for them is a minor factor at best when this is the focus.

 

Like I said, very sad.

[pqr]

Our schools here teach to the test. It's common knowledge. The study guides they send home can only be described as miniature versions of the tests. I'm not surprised that teachers are doing this.

 

 

Even with these "study guides" the children are still failing the tests. This raises the question on just what the kids are actually doing in school.

[Pajama Mama]

Even with these "study guides" the children are still failing the tests. This raises the question on just what the kids are actually doing in school.

 

At the local school here, they have movie day, bring your DS(hand-held video game)to school day and other pointless events. Last week, it was the last day of school. The kids got picked up at 8:30 and the buses started dropping them off at 10:30. It was a 2 hour filler day.

[JudoMom]

My next door neighbor is a PE teacher at a low-income school (she's told me that she's had kids show up in pjs because their parents are too hung over/high to get them dressed). She's a sweet lady, and she does care about the kids and doesn't like the bureaucracy of the school system. Last summer we were talking and she told me that they were confused at her school because of test scores.

 

A 5th grade boy's score was particular confounding. He scored well in reading. The problem according to my neighbor? Everyone knows he can't read.

 

Three major problems there. A 5th grader who can't read, teachers who know it and haven't helped him, and an appearance of cheating on the test.

[Willow]

There is of course another point.

 

The tests are pointless. And teachers treat them with the contempt they deserve!

 

This however is my own opinion and i am not a teacher, (only a homeschool facilitator) most teachers I know are trying to do the best they can for the kids despite the tests. If I was a teacher I think I would treat them as the irrelevance they are.

 

there is so much research to show that grades, tests and the like hold kids back, discourage risk taking and original thinking and result in identical students who have no interest in learning but only in how to pass the test.

 

And for those who are going to say a low grade spurs one to greater efforts...imagine being graded on your supper making abilities every day. Unless you are amazingly talented in this area, how long before your Low B's C's and D's make you hate cooking. And how long before you give up all together. For the cooks and chefs amongst you insert whatever you are not talented at.

 

Of course grades and tests are great for the 10% who are good at them. They get positive feedback and soon get even further ahead.

 

As for compromising ones integrity. Isn't asking teachers to implement tests they believe to be harmful to the students in their care asking them to do just that?

 

And yes they can resign, and yes, every year gifted and honest teachers do just that. And who loses?

[edithcrawley]

I agree but think about this hypothetical situation.

 

You have a bright class of 30 kids. Just by chance 8 are gifted and 2 are profoundly gifted. Also, just by chance there are almost no LD kids, just say, a couple of bright dyslexics.

 

You are a keen teacher who wants to take this class as far as it can go. But your advice (from the head teacher) is to hold them back as the next class along is different. No gifted kids, a high percentage of LD kids. Your whole school is worried and you are in a terrible bind. Do you teach your bright class, or do you deliberately hold them back.

 

The bright class will pass the test whatever happens, but if you make the teaching monotonous, refuse to offer extension activities etc they will get bored and disruptive and not do all THAT well. Then there will not be such a gap between them and the next class.

 

So do you follow advice and teach this class poorly, and save the schools reputation (and do a major disservice to the kids) or do you teach them to the best of your and their ability, and risk the whole school (and your job in particular as it would be your class that bombed) next year?

 

What would you do?

 

 

That's why I wish that the testing didn't judge each class of kids against each other (i.e. kids that were 3rd graders in 2008 have their pass/fail rate scores compared with the 3rd graders of 2009). It would make a lot more sense if they would compare the same grade throughout their schooling years (example: 60% of the 2006 3rd graders pass the 3rd grade test, and the next year, 65% of the same kids pass the 4th grade test.) Comparing one group of kids to another doesn't make a whole lot of sense because of the problems you mentioned.

[pqr]

There is of course another point.

 

The tests are pointless. And teachers treat them with the contempt they deserve!

 

If I was a teacher I think I would treat them as the irrelevance they are.

 

As for compromising ones integrity. Isn't asking teachers to implement tests they believe to be harmful to the students in their care asking them to do just that?

 

And yes they can resign, and yes, every year gifted and honest teachers do just that. And who loses?

 

They are cheating. I care not a whit what their feelings are about a test, they are paid to teach kids and administer tests. Failure to do this is unacceptable.

 

If you treated them as irrelevent then you would not be doing your job and should be fired. One can not pick and choose where to dsiplay integrity.

 

No one has yet ever been able to explain how "teaching to the test" for a subject such as mathematics does not also mean teaching mathematics. If the test will ask about multiplying three digit numbers and little Johnny can do that then he can also multiply. All for the better as far as I can see.

Edited June 13, 2010 by pqr

[Mejane]

They are cheating. I care not a whit what their feelings are about a test, they are paid to teach kids and administer tests. Failure to do this is unacceptable.

 

 

 

It sounds as though the only real motivation was the bonus and better performance reviews: greed, pure and simple.

[Willow]

They are cheating. I care not a whit what their feelings are about a test, they are paid to teach kids and administer tests. Failure to do this is unacceptable.

 

If you treated them as irrelevent then you would not be doing your job and should be fired.

 

 

 

 

Yes, sadly, my dear friend's husband was in agreement with you. So he resigned, despite the children at the school begging him not to, to say nothing of the principal. He believed the tests were damaging to the kids.

 

For one example only, what happens when johnny cannot multiply 3 digit numbers, he just needs more time. But now he, and all his mates and all his mates parents know he is 'behind' and 'stupid' and they don't want their kids to play with johnny, but only with billy who got good test scores.

 

Good teachers leave the profession because of impossible situations.

 

I think we should stop vilifying teachers and start looking at what makes conscientious and committed people act in this way. If one starts from the assumption that all teachers are stupid and lazy then yes, this is cheating and wrong. But what happens if one assumes teachers are conscientious, hardworking and committed to the best for their kids. Then why did they cheat? What makes good people act in bad ways? Possibly they are in a situation where there is no 'right'.

 

Or maybe ALL teachers should simply resign! ;)

[pqr]

For one example only, what happens when johnny cannot multiply 3 digit numbers, he just needs more time.

 

Not necessarily, perhaps he is stupid; some people are. If he is not stupid then he certainly is behind in the ability to take tests and operate under pressure and time limits.

[TracyR]

Personally the whole test taking this is a shear waste of learning time. I feel for these teachers I really do. I've been cyberschooling for a while now and my daughters just don't test well. They are not stupid by any means. I actually get many compliments at how smart my children are. I personally don't need a test to tell me that for one.

Next its the teachers who are under pressure to preform. If they don't do well then its their job. They aren't going to churn out a bunch of bright kids since they are stuck with at least 30 some kids ( if your a cyberschool teacher try 50 or more).

 

The prep for testing is a joke. It never helped my girls in the slightest. Bascially in the end its a waste of time.

 

Children could be learning so much more in that wasted time.

[Willow]

Not necessarily, perhaps he is stupid; some people are. If he is not stupid then he certainly is behind in the ability to take tests and operate under pressure and time limits.

 

 

In my example he needed more time. Yes some people are stupid. How does making them feel bad about it help anything? Obviously they will not make it into university but destroying them at age 7 seems rather counter productive.

 

 

The reason I have been up in arms about this is that I find the assumption (common in homeschooling in my area) that all teachers, by definition, are bad rather depressing. Some teachers are bad, so are some architects, some accountants.....

 

For one example of this assumption, Mejane said that it seemed the motive was greed pure and simple. This is an assumption based on a newspaper article. Is the author unbiased? Does mejane know the author, the teachers concerned or more about the situation that she has stated? If she does than I apologise, otherwise this is an uninformed opinion, based on one account, that may or may not be biased.

 

I will now resign from this debate, and I will agree that cheating with the motive of self interest is wrong.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Willow

[Jean in Newcastle]

Look back at the early years of American education. No tests, no SATS, no impossible hurdles, just teachers left to teach. And an educated populous.

 

Well, in a way they taught to the test too. Many portions of the curriculum was stuff that had to be learned by rote and recited back. If you were not able to do it perfectly then you were simply not promoted.

[Colleen in SEVA]

In one of my local school districts, teachers were punished for NOT cheating on end of grade tests. The investigation found this going on at numerous schools, and an article in our local paper showed excerpts from middle school level writing samples that were WORD FOR WORD identical (including the spelling errors :001_huh: ).

 

http://www.link757.com/2010/03/norfolk-public-schools-plans-news-conference-230-pm

[Daisy]

I hate these conversations. Most people don't have a CLUE the type of pressure public school teachers are under.

 

Yes, some teachers cheat on tests.

 

No, that isn't right. I've never known a teacher who cheated and wasn't terminated. As a matter of fact they are fired and lose their teaching creditional in CA state. Once that happens forget about teaching anywhere else. Hubby has been in this field for nearly 20 years and seen it happen a few times.

 

But that is just one symptom of a failed educational system.

 

Here's a real life example.

 

School A has excellent students, high parental involvement, and excellent test scores. They make their API scores.

 

The deal with CA and NCLB is that they have to continue to increase their scores a certain percentage point every single year in order to show improvement. If they neglect to do this for 2 years in a row they are put on probation.

 

This isn't a problem for several years. Improvement happens.

 

Then a low-income housing apartment complex is built across from the school. District boundaries are redrawn and the school enrollment increases. The school now has an enrollment of nearly 900 students and supplies for 600 (original # school was built for).

 

The demographics are significantly changed. Where the school was once upper-middle class dual income two parent families with children who grew up in a rich educational environment, it now has a greater english language learners, single parent, low-income, transient population.

 

BUT the rules still apply. The test scores that the school WAS generating still have to met and still have to be improved upon regardless of that HUGE change in demographic.

 

So what happens. Test scores start to drop (duh). Administration of the district comes in and starts chomping on the butt of the principal, threatening all sorts of state-mandated changes.

 

The principal chomps on the butts of the teachers.

 

Scores drop another year.

 

Curriculum is changed. Districts hope they can regulate increases in test scores so they mandate what a teacher even puts on their bulletin board.

 

Economy tanks. More kids and families move into the lower income housing. Two and three families to an apartment.

 

School enrollment increases and funds shrink. All teacher's aides are fired. Librarian fired. Computer technician fired. Counselor fired.

 

The state comes in and tells the teachers that they suck. Tells the teachers they'll be replaced. Tells 30 yr veterans that they don't know what they are doing.

 

Teachers are stressed.

 

Principals are stressed. They tell the teachers to do whatever it takes to bring those scores up.

 

Some teachers cheat.

 

Others refuse.

 

The system is messed up people.

 

Sadly, this isn't EVEN about the poor low-income under-educated kids who need more time, more resources, and more help.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Daisy