If you are vegetarian for ethical reasons...

[StaceyinLA]

Do you not feel the same ethical issues regarding the dairy industry?

 

I have been mostly vegan for a few months. I teeter on the brink because we have access to good, clean, truly free-range beef and chicken.

 

My problem is that I think the dairy industry is more cruel, even when it is "clean," due to the excess breeding of animals in order to induce milk production. Even having our own milk goats I realize that we will have to produce more animals to get our does back "in milk."

 

In a factory farm situation, I certainly believe the dairy industry is worse due to the fact that the animals are pushed to their maximum, then still wind up destroyed for meat. The thought truly sickens me to no end. I just cannot STAND animal suffering of any kind!!!

 

So, what's a person to do if they don't technically want to be vegan, but can't deal with these issues???

[OrganicAnn]

We are not strict vegetarians. We eat very few meals that are based around meat. We bought 1/2 an organic grass fed cow this year. We occasionally buy organic chickens. We buy local eggs. We do it for a variety of reasons. Just like we eat our own grown organic vegetables, but we occasionally buy non-organic vegetables or organic vegetables from the store. We do our best. We buy organic milk, cheese etc. I'm rather afraid to find out more - like the milk industry. I don't want to be milking a goat every morning. :)

[gaillardia]

:lurk5: I hear ya. It's pretty horrifying what is done to the animals.

I am horrified also by hormonal helps for menopause, pregnant horse urine. Okay, somebody will probably slap me for that, but last I read and heard and the reason why some of my friends quite taking it was because they found out what it is, and how the horses are treated. Okay, I'm ready, slaughter me.:tongue_smilie:

[LauraGB]

As far as I have observed, the local organic farms are not the same beast. Do you have access to a good organic dairy farm? Can you literally get a guided tour of the place? There, you can get your milk. Making your own cheese is not hard - just a lot of patience required. Yogurt, cottage cheese, soured cream, etc., isn't all that hard, either. And often, they will have classes about those things, or at least information, at a local organic farm.

 

I agree, though. Factory farming in and of itself, and everything that comes with it is highly disturbing, to say the least.

[amy g.]

I don't think it is inhumane to breed a goat to kid every year, particularly if it is fed well, and not over crowded.

 

Any kids that are not sold into show homes will be butchered here at the only home they have ever had. That is more loving, from my perspective than selling to a pet home where they are unlikely to get the care they need for a happy life.

 

Miss Good's mentor has 17 and 18 year old goats that look GREAT. You can tell they have not been pushed for production just by looking at them.

 

It is a difficult thing to do, and people think it is cruel and gruesome, but not as cruel as buying factory farmed meat and dairy.

 

Maybe you can find someone who would sell you dairy products from happy healthy animals.

[JeneralMom]

I refuse to buy factory farmed milk and eggs. I have a personal relationship with the people who supple me with farm fresh eggs and raw milk (how many people can say that the cow who supplied their milk walked over and stuck her head in the car while you were packing milk into it.)

 

I was a very strict vegetarian for 15 years and still would be if it were not for some health issues. I tried being vegan and lasted for a few months but there are just too many things with forms of egg and milk in them. We do not wear leather or fur or real feathers, either.

[Parrothead]

I haven't looked into it and I should, but I by only from the local dairy and local eggs.

 

I can give up the meat, but not so much the real butter, eggs, cream and milk.

[FunnyFarmMom]

I'm not sure that you really understand that of which you speak! Have you been to a modern dairy farm? Spoken to a farmer? I can only tell you that our lives revolve around the comfort of our cows. This is both because we truly love cows and like to see them happy and because contented cows make more milk, thus more money. I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have! :)

[StaceyinLA]

I don't think the average dairy farm that is pumping cows full of hormones, milking them til they can't be milked, then hauling them off for slaughter is something I want to support. TOO many dairy farms ARE run like that.

 

If there is something different and LOTS better, I'd like to hear more about it.

 

I mean we DO have something fairly local that is better, but I can milk my goats if I want to perpetuate animal breeding. What I really want to know is how others have reconciled these things??

[phathui5]

When I wasn't eating meat because of the factory farming issues, I dropped dairy also and was vegan for about six years.

 

I am now comfortable eating organic (free range) meat and dairy, but won't buy its conventional counterpart.

[FunnyFarmMom]

Sounds like you've got your mind pretty made up about dairy farming. Sorry you're not open to more discussion. I think we just have very different ideas about the purpose of animals in our world. While we won't stand for cruelty to animals in any way, we do believe that God provided them for our use. With that comes a responsibility to care for them - which we do to the best of our ability. Still, if you have any questions about what we really do on our farm and why, I'd be happy to answer.

[StaceyinLA]

I mentioned that in my post. I'd love to hear something positive about large-scale dairy farming.

 

I also believe God gave us animals to use (to a degree), but He also told us to be kind to our beasts. Factory farming is NOT kind.

 

I am certainly not lumping you into that category, as I don't know you personally nor do I know what your standards are.

 

What I do believe is that dairy calves are not raised by momma cows, cows are pushed to milk a HUGE amount of milk and thus "worn out" at an early age only to then be slaughtered for ground meat, and most are given antibiotics through the whole process to stave off the illnesses that they are prone to due to the lifestyle forced upon them. This is not what I desire for any animal.

 

If you have a better scenario for me (heck, for most of us who think this way), please tell me about it. I would LOVE to know that not all dairy animals are treated like machines.

[Peela]

Hi Stacey- I really understand your dilemma- not sure there is an easy answer except to be vegan. My body is not ready to be vegan, so I eat organic raw milk from pastured cows (which is actually normal still here in Australia) and I eat some meat when I crave it- ideally from organic free range animals but in reality, it's not always. We have a great organic shop quite close to home and it has made picking up the raw milk or the organic meat much easier- it is expensive though!

 

Dh is strictly vegetarian but digs his head in the sand when it comes to dairy. He won't drink my raw milk, but is happy with normal pasteurised milk, cheese etc.

 

I just try to base my diet on fruit and vegetables, mostly raw but more cooked in winter, and keep meat and dairy to "extras" rather than staples. But, if my system handled being vegan, I think its a great way to go.

If you are managing being vegan but feel like you may not be getting enough nutrients, I can recommend about 10gms of spirulina a day. I can go much longer without meat if I keep up my spirulina intake.

[ktgrok]

It's my understanding that you have to keep breeding the cows to keep them in milk. But there is no need for male calves, so they are sold to the veal industry. I cannot ethically support the veal industry, so therefore I can't support the dairy industry. Also, as posted above, taking away a baby from it's mother so that we can have the milk instead...that doesn't sit right with me.

[Margaret in GA]

It's my understanding that you have to keep breeding the cows to keep them in milk. But there is no need for male calves, so they are sold to the veal industry. I cannot ethically support the veal industry, so therefore I can't support the dairy industry. Also, as posted above, taking away a baby from it's mother so that we can have the milk instead...that doesn't sit right with me.

 

This is one of my issues, too. I grew up on a dairy farm- not huge, but 100 milking cows can be considered by some too large scale. I used to cry when I was little when the trailer would carry away the calves from their mamas, who you could hear calling to them. It affected me deeply and I should stress that this was a well-run farm where we bottled our own milk to sell to the public directly. In other words, very transparent and very humane by all standards.

 

I don't do dairy today because I found that I feel so much better and have far more energy without it. I think we can all agree that most people can't tolerate and shouldn't have dairy (at least the type of milk we are mostly producing today) and for me the reason is less about the ethical treatment of animals and more about health. But, when I buy dairy for the rest of the family I choose local and organic. It's expensive. And it's not perfect, but I can't seem to convince anyone else in the family (except ds 10 who also cannot tolerate milk) to give it up. And I am too lazy to milk my own cow/ goat. I do eat some meat (again, rasied locally and mostly organically and above all, ethically) but see the day that I will be all vegan. I am convinced that its our healthiest option for our bodies and our planet.

Margaret

[Alicia64]

I know the dairy industry is monstrously inhumane. What they do alone to male baby calves after birth is awful.

 

But I do give my kids milk.

 

I am an admitted hypocrite. I don't drink milk (love almond and soy) and I buy the freest hens' eggs I can (even though I heard that's a joke too unless you're buying straight from an ethical farmer), but I do have cheese on pizza.

 

Dh has real concerns about nutrition and vegan kids and, in the end, I respected that. I don't know if he's right or wrong. With twins, I was too overwhelmed to research the matter.

 

Now one boy has chosen on his own to be veggie -- NO push from me. A fellow hs friend was veggie and he admired the reasons. My other son eats some meat and doesn't feel the ethical pull.

 

Good for you for all you're doing.

 

Alley

[MomOfOneFunOne]

Do you not feel the same ethical issues regarding the dairy industry?

 

I have been mostly vegan for a few months. I teeter on the brink because we have access to good, clean, truly free-range beef and chicken.

 

My problem is that I think the dairy industry is more cruel, even when it is "clean," due to the excess breeding of animals in order to induce milk production. Even having our own milk goats I realize that we will have to produce more animals to get our does back "in milk."

 

In a factory farm situation, I certainly believe the dairy industry is worse due to the fact that the animals are pushed to their maximum, then still wind up destroyed for meat. The thought truly sickens me to no end. I just cannot STAND animal suffering of any kind!!!

 

So, what's a person to do if they don't technically want to be vegan, but can't deal with these issues???

 

Wow, interesting to meet someone in almost exactly the same boat!

 

I'm a looooong time vegetarian. For many of those years I was vegan. If I knew the chicken and the cow and felt comfortable with how they were treated, I'd feel comfortable eating the eggs and drinking the milk, eating the cheese. Corporate farming what it is in America now . . . I don't feel comfortable eating/drinking the above.

 

My girl was about 2 when I stopped being vegan. Silly as it sounds, the reason I stopped was that there were a number of traditions that I enjoyed very, very, much as a kid that she wouln't ever enjoy the way I did and it made me sad. I really wanted my girl to have homemade peach ice cream on a summer night while watching fireflies. Dumb I know especially since we could make a (not so great but better than nothing) soy version. Still, I just wanted her to be able to enjoy some of those food related traditions I had enjoyed so much.

 

So, I started seeking out humane alternatives. I was never really convinced on the eggs but would occassionally buy so-called free-range, et c. eggs and milk that was labled hormone-free, et c. Still, I just wasn't convinced.

 

I started looking for truly local, transparent farms. There is a dairy near enough by but we haven't gone out to see about it. We like soy milk. It tastes good to us so we weren't really driven. Lately, however, we want to drink less soy so we're thinking about trying that dairy. Eggs . . . well, we got chickens. They don't lay yet, though.

 

I think I know exactly how you feel. I don't feel the same ethical/moral/whatever qualm about consuming dairy and eggs that I do about consuming meat but I do feel the same moral compunction about corporate farming practices. it's that kind of treatment of animals and the food they produce that I find repugnant and that keeps me from choosing to consume the dairy and eggs. Given a situation in which I can know and feel comfortable with the farming practice of the folks involved, I would feel comfortable consuming the eggs/milk.

 

So, we're seeking out those things. We got our own chickens and we're going to the dairy for the first time later this week. Their milk is raw; I'm still a little nervous about that.

[Haiku]

 

So, what's a person to do if they don't technically want to be vegan, but can't deal with these issues???

 

I can't answer that because I had to be vegetarian for sixteen years before I went vegan. All that time I was just certain that being vegan would never work for me, but then one day it was time. And I'm amazed how smooth the transition was.

 

We drink almond milk and use nutritional yeast or avocados for cheese substitutes. 4/5 of the family is vegan.

 

Tara

[hornblower]

It's my understanding that you have to keep breeding the cows to keep them in milk. But there is no need for male calves, so they are sold to the veal industry. I cannot ethically support the veal industry, so therefore I can't support the dairy industry. Also, as posted above, taking away a baby from it's mother so that we can have the milk instead...that doesn't sit right with me.

 

I agree that this is the conventional wisdom & it's the reason I am not happy with dairy either.

 

BUT - I have to say that I question this to an extent. I agree that it does happen like this in large scale commercial ops and it seems to be the norm in even smaller ops but I don't think it has to be like this, for one simple reason.

 

Animals CAN continue making milk long after babies have gone & there are a fair # of reports of animals lactating spontaneously (ie, with no pregnancy).

 

I'm an IBCLC so most of my reading is about human lactation. And while the current protocols for adoptive moms involve hormonal simulation of pregnancy (& would that not be a better option for the cow/goat?), some women do bring on a milk supply with no hormonally simulated pregnancy.

 

Also, women can keep on giving milk for years. Reports from the time when wet nursing was common indicate it's not unusual for some women to have a large milk supply for years and years & in sufficient quantities for several babies.

 

After the hormonal push, milk supply is largely governed by demand. The more you demand (by milking or feeding a baby) the more is created.

 

Many cows have actually been bred & selected over generations to produce tons more milk than a calf can consume (which is another reason I hear that the babies are taken away :glare:) so I don't actually see why one breeding would not produce an abundant supply for many years. Well, abundant for the small scale family/farmer who's just looking at having a bit of milk on the table - probably not abundant enough for a commercial producer looking at maximizing profits.

 

I have read of dairy cows & nanny goats continuing to produce large amounts of milk for years even without a breeding so I know it's not impossible.

 

Also, even if you do have to breed, there exists now the technology of gender selection so you could choose to birth females for the herd rather than the males of which only few are needed. BTW, this issue of "excess" males plagues the egg industry as well. When eggs are hatched for battery hens, the males are not wanted. I read in Diet for a New America that they're just smothered in garbage bags after hatching. :-(

 

I don't know. It's all so ugly when you think about it too much.

 

I wish I had the time & space to try out having a nanny goat & seeing how much milk can be taken in a truly humane fashion & without numerous breedings but it's hard to sneak something like this into a suburban garden :)

[FunnyFarmMom]

You are right, in order to produce milk, cows do have to have calves. And since we only need a very limited number of bulls, most of the male calves are raised to be eaten in some way - whether beef or veal. We also only keep those cows which are making enough milk during the year to be financially profitable. The rest are sold for beef. That is true for all dairy farms across the country, organic or conventional, large or small. Those are just the realities of agriculture. If those things are beyond what your conscience can stand, then you certainly have the choice of going completely vegan.

 

On the other hand, if you can accept these agricultural realities, you can be assured that the vast majority of dairy cows are well taken care of during their lives. I wrote a lot more about that on this thread. We do this for profit of course, we have families to provide for. But we also do it because we LOVE cows - it would be difficult to farm if we didn't! :001_smile: There is nothing as rewarding as a live, healthy calf after a difficult calving or watching a long line of healthy cows digging into their feed with relish, throwing it around a little as happy cows do. I like to drive slowly past the lots, watching the cows act like cows. This is a deeply satisfying life.

 

I have a question for all of you. I see the term "factory farm" in this thread many times. Obviously, I'm familiar with the phrase, but I'm wondering what you mean by it. What, exactly, makes a dairy farm a "factory farm"?

[hornblower]

This is one of my issues, too. I grew up on a dairy farm- not huge, but 100 milking cows can be considered by some too large scale. I used to cry when I was little when the trailer would carry away the calves from their mamas, who you could hear calling to them. It affected me deeply and I should stress that this was a well-run farm where we bottled our own milk to sell to the public directly. In other words, very transparent and very humane by all standards.

 

Thank you for sharing this.

[FunnyFarmMom]

Animals CAN continue making milk long after babies have gone & there are a fair # of reports of animals lactating spontaneously (ie, with no pregnancy).

 

I'm an IBCLC so most of my reading is about human lactation. And while the current protocols for adoptive moms involve hormonal simulation of pregnancy (& would that not be a better option for the cow/goat?), some women do bring on a milk supply with no hormonally simulated pregnancy.

 

After the hormonal push, milk supply is largely governed by demand. The more you demand (by milking or feeding a baby) the more is created.

 

Many cows have actually been bred & selected over generations to produce tons more milk than a calf can consume (which is another reason I hear that the babies are taken away :glare:) so I don't actually see why one breeding would not produce an abundant supply for many years. Well, abundant for the small scale family/farmer who's just looking at having a bit of milk on the table - probably not abundant enough for a commercial producer looking at maximizing profits.

 

I have read of dairy cows & nanny goats continuing to produce large amounts of milk for years even without a breeding so I know it's not impossible.

 

Yep - you're absolutely right. A backyard cow could probably provide for a family for a couple of years without having another calf. My son's dairy goat would come back into milk if she simply thought about a kid! But the reality of our modern life is that most people don't have the ability or desire to own a cow and milk it twice a day, every day. Thus, you have us - dairy farmers. Milk is cheap and margins are very slim (actually, right now we're all losing money and have been for a year, but that's a different topic!) Financially, we have to be extremely efficient, and unfortunately, a cow only making enough milk for one or 2 families is not going to be paying her keep. Environmentally also, efficient dairy production uses fewer resources.

 

Also, even if you do have to breed, there exists now the technology of gender selection so you could choose to birth females for the herd rather than the males of which only few are needed.

 

Sexed semen is not quite that simple. It is pretty new to our industry and improving, but not perfect. First, it costs much more than normal. And in a time when most of us are struggling to pay the feed and vet bills - it just doesn't make financial sense. Second, the separation process leaves the semen less fertile. For this reason, it is only financially viable on young cows (like women, younger cows get pregnant much, much more easily!) Finally, the process is only 90% effective - we still have too many bull calves.

 

I don't know. It's all so ugly when you think about it too much.

 

I wish I had the time & space to try out having a nanny goat & seeing how much milk can be taken in a truly humane fashion & without numerous breedings but it's hard to sneak something like this into a suburban garden

 

:)

 

LOL - I know you wouldn't be able to sneak our goats in anywhere, they're much too vocal and friendly!

[StaceyinLA]

almost 3 years without being rebred. Of course, this was after I sold her to a close friend of mine. :001_huh: I surely wish that I would've tried that myself. In addition, you can milk her once a day and get nearly a gallon of milk. Of course, she is an exception...

 

I think that we have a very humane setup. I don't take the babies from the momma. For the first 3 weeks or so, they nurse constantly. After that, I start separating them for a few hours then milk the doe before I put them back together. The older they get and the more they are eating other things (hay, grains, etc), the longer I separate them until they are separated all night. I milk in the morning then put her back with the kids til that night. If I need to take a trip, be gone for the weekend, or just want a day off of milking, I just leave the kids with her.

 

This has worked for me for years, but I still have that dilemma about what to do with all those babies...

[Daisy]

I hate the dairy farms around here. Sorry, but even children can see how horrible it is.

 

Thousands upon thousands of miserable cows standing around in dirt lots in 110 degree weather with only about 25% of them able to fit under the metal pole sheds at one time. The stench is overwhelming. Pools of waste. Flies. Uugh.

 

Welcome to the San Joaquin Valley of California. California does not have happy cows (unlike what the commercial will tell you).

 

I was raised around family cows. We ate turkey that we shot and plucked ourselves. I'm not squeamish. I'm not anti-meat or anti-dairy, but there is no way you would get me to drink the milk that comes from those cows.