Has anyone surrendered and stopped trying to guide their dc who do not want to be

[rookie]

guided? I think I have just snapped today. I feel like I am done. Two of my dc have me spent. I spend more time on managing them than on the rest of the family/home/and chores combined. I spend hours reading on how to parent them. And they are constantly at it with DH and I or with each other. DD spent hours today telling me everything she hates about me and her father and her brother and her life. I listened calmly and wrote it all down. She has said numerous times that I do not listen and do not understand. So I sat to listen and understand. Then she said that she cannot tell me how to understand her point of view because she does not know her own point of view but I still should know her point of view. Okay, when I do try to say "I think that you are feeling or thinking xyz" she then gets mad at me and tells me that I have no idea what she is thinking or feeling. I wrote down 6 legal pages worth of notes while she was speaking. After each note I asked her if I had correctly recorded her thoughts or feelings. She said yes and then I proceeded. When we got to the end she started crying and saying that the notes did not accurately reflect her thoughts and feelings. :001_huh: She wanted to tear up the notes. I said no calmly. For three hours I had been listening intently and confirming my notes to make sure that I was understanding.

 

Lest you say "she's 12" this has been an ongoing issue for many many years. Her brother acts this way too. The other two children are not like this at all. Easygoing, content, cheerful, helpful, etc. These two are also big liars. They try to cheat, sneak, tell half truths, and outright lie pretty regularly in spite of our many, many conversations, encouragements, and both positive and negative consequences, etc.

 

No matter what we do (activities, nice home, lots of attention and time with both parents, rewards for good behaviors, talking about actions, negative consequences for bad choices, etc.) they are dissatisfied with us, cannot stand each other, and cause chaos in our home. They suck all of our attention and energy while the other two wait patiently for us to be available.

 

I just feel like not parenting them anymore - at least not the way I have been. I feel like just leaving them to their own devices. Go ahead do not study, be nasty to each other, don't shower, don't participate in chores, be annoying to others until they do not want to be around you......... I will not correct you or scream or dole out consequences. No more trying to get them to do school or chores, no explaining the rules over and over, no anything. No stopping bickering, no stopping arguments between siblings, no asking for help. Again, nothing.

 

And focusing all of my energy and attention on the dc who do not think I am an ogre and actually enjoy my company and teaching.

 

Maybe it I just let them be the way they want to be it will turn out all right in the end. Or maybe they will be monsters but it does not seem that our efforts are making a difference.

[specialmama]

:grouphug: Drastic times do call for drastic measures. Perhaps it's time for a strike? Maybe mom needs a vacation and the 2 troubled ones can go visit family for a few weeks? :grouphug:

[Rosie_0801]

Maybe something like "So I don't understand you, right? And you don't understand you, right? Well then I guess we're doomed! How about we agree that we will both do our best and agree that we will try to believe that each other is doing their best even if it looks like we're doing a crappy job? Does that sound better than just being doomed?"

 

If she can agree to that:

"Ok, so your job is to try and figure out what your feelings are without accusing me of being evil incarnate. My job is to try and be patient and try to help you work through your thoughts without hitting you over the head with a brick. As much as you might think it sucks, it is my job to parent you. The next thing you need to learn is appropriate ways of expressing frustration." Presumably you have something you don't mind hearing. A general "I hate everyone and everything and I need to go sulk in my room!" is better than "Mum, you suck in every way and I know you are out to get me." Or maybe you don't think "I hate everyone and everything" is suitable, but it's the line I use when I'm in a mood and dh doesn't mind because it's pretty obvious that it's not personally aimed at anyone, especially him. ;) If you can have an agreed on phrase, the next time she starts accusing you of being Cruella DeVille, you can simply ask if she really means "I hate everyone and everything and I'm going to go sulk in my room for a while."

 

Hormones suck :grouphug:

 

Rosie

Edited May 29, 2010 by Rosie_0801

[Diane in CO]

My job is to try and be patient and try to help you work through your thoughts without hitting you over the head with a brick.

 

Rosie

 

I like that part best :D I will be using that when my boys get into their teens!

 

Diane

[Rosie_0801]

You can probably guess where I learned the variety of phrases that indicated desire to hit people over the head with bricks. On ya Mum ;)

 

Rosie

[Mommyfaithe]

Maybe something like "So I don't understand you, right? And you don't understand you, right? Well then I guess we're doomed! How about we agree that we will both do our best and agree that we will try to believe that each other is doing their best even if it looks like we're doing a crappy job? Does that sound better than just being doomed?"

 

If she can agree to that:

"Ok, so your job is to try and figure out what your feelings are without accusing me of being evil incarnate. My job is to try and be patient and try to help you work through your thoughts without hitting you over the head with a brick. As much as you might think it sucks, it is my job to parent you. The next thing you need to learn is appropriate ways of expressing frustration." Presumably you have something you don't mind hearing. A general "I hate everyone and everything and I need to go sulk in my room!" is better than "Mum, you suck in every way and I know you are out to get me." Or maybe you don't think "I hate everyone and everything" isn't suitable, but it's the line I use when I'm in a mood and dh doesn't mind because it's pretty obvious that it's not personally aimed at anyone, especially him. ;) If you can have an agreed on phrase, the next time she starts accusing you of being Cruella DeVille, you can simply ask if she really means "I hate everyone and everything and I'm going to go sulk in my room for a while."

 

Hormones suck :grouphug:

 

Rosie

 

:iagree: and Rosie said it much better than I ever could...right down to the brick!

 

Faithe

[keptwoman]

I do absolutely agree with Rosie. But I wondered if you had considered a family therapist. Sometimes when we are mired in these situations, we are in too deep to be able to get a good overview. Someone outside the situation can provide that overview, and a map to get out of it.

[Danestress]

When you take six pages of notes on why a 12 year old hates you, you are sending a message that you deeply care about why she hates you and you deeply want to change whatever is bothering her. Why not just say, "Yeah, I remember feeling that way about my parents when I was your age. Anyway, that garbage isn't going to take itself out, so hop on it and then finish your math." Shrug. You are giving her complaints too much validity.

 

You have a life. Model that to these children. I can't imagine indulging a 12 year old's drama enough listen to 3 hours of talk and take notes unless we were in a counseling session. Yes, make them do what they have to do and make them do their school work. It's worth fighting for. But it's not worth 3 hours of conversation, and it sounds like you think talking (and listening) solves problems. Talking (whether it's you or your daughter) doesn't always solve problems. As an experiment, try reducing the talking you do with the child by half. Don't try to convince her of things. Just tell her "this is the way I want this to happen." Pick your battles, but win the battles you pick.

 

I had one who was more this way - he took so much energy and would just nag and harass me to tears. But it really did get better when I chose not to engage. Honestly, I found that just having a really good book helped. I just let him know how much more interested I was in the book than in arguing with him.

[fairfarmhand]

:grouphug: I have a 12 year old girl too.

 

 

I like the idea of taking the whole family on vacation and leaving them at home. Tell them you're sick of being around them, so they get to stay at Grandmas

 

Seriously, the Kevin Leman Book, Have a New Kid by Friday really helped my family.

 

And I do think she is trying to manipulate you with her emotions.

 

Perhaps she can write YOU a letter to explain herself.

[Mothersweets]

When you take six pages of notes on why a 12 year old hates you, you are sending a message that you deeply care about why she hates you and you deeply want to change whatever is bothering her. Why not just say, "Yeah, I remember feeling that way about my parents when I was your age. Anyway, that garbage isn't going to take itself out, so hop on it and then finish your math." Shrug. You are giving her complaints too much validity.

 

You have a life. Model that to these children. I can't imagine indulging a 12 year old's drama enough listen to 3 hours of talk and take notes unless we were in a counseling session. Yes, make them do what they have to do and make them do their school work. It's worth fighting for. But it's not worth 3 hours of conversation, and it sounds like you think talking (and listening) solves problems. Talking (whether it's you or your daughter) doesn't always solve problems. As an experiment, try reducing the talking you do with the child by half. Don't try to convince her of things. Just tell her "this is the way I want this to happen." Pick your battles, but win the battles you pick.

 

I had one who was more this way - he took so much energy and would just nag and harass me to tears. But it really did get better when I chose not to engage. Honestly, I found that just having a really good book helped. I just let him know how much more interested I was in the book than in arguing with him.

 

:iagree: Hang in there, mama!

[Lovedtodeath]

I do absolutely agree with Rosie. But I wondered if you had considered a family therapist. Sometimes when we are mired in these situations, we are in too deep to be able to get a good overview. Someone outside the situation can provide that overview, and a map to get out of it.

 

When you take six pages of notes on why a 12 year old hates you, you are sending a message that you deeply care about why she hates you and you deeply want to change whatever is bothering her. Why not just say, "Yeah, I remember feeling that way about my parents when I was your age. Anyway, that garbage isn't going to take itself out, so hop on it and then finish your math." Shrug. You are giving her complaints too much validity.

 

You have a life. Model that to these children. I can't imagine indulging a 12 year old's drama enough listen to 3 hours of talk and take notes unless we were in a counseling session. Yes, make them do what they have to do and make them do their school work. It's worth fighting for. But it's not worth 3 hours of conversation, and it sounds like you think talking (and listening) solves problems. Talking (whether it's you or your daughter) doesn't always solve problems. As an experiment, try reducing the talking you do with the child by half. Don't try to convince her of things. Just tell her "this is the way I want this to happen." Pick your battles, but win the battles you pick.

 

I had one who was more this way - he took so much energy and would just nag and harass me to tears. But it really did get better when I chose not to engage. Honestly, I found that just having a really good book helped. I just let him know how much more interested I was in the book than in arguing with him.

I can see validity in both of these posts. Kids can have emotional health problems too. No one understands me either if I don't take my anti-depressant. DD is an energy sucker and I have found that I have to just distract her instead of trying to talk things out, which almost always makes things worse.

[Parrothead]

How about journaling? She (and he) can write down their thouhts, read them, edit them, get some kind of handle on all the thoughts that are running through their heads.

 

Have you had their IQ's tested? Sometimes the ones with the high IQ's can't shut off the thoughts. Once you figure out where they are coming from you'll better be able to help them.

 

I'd find some kind of outlet for the thoughts and feelings. And I would absolutely insist on respect of the house, people in the house and the family unit. Yes, they may despise every member of the family, but there will be no yelling, throwing, breaking, hitting, etc. Those behaviors get swift and immediate consequences.

 

And as hard as it can be not to, don't react to the drama. "Oh, poor me. No one understands me. Woe is me," gets met with a blank stare or a "Yes, honey, I know."

[keptwoman]

I can see validity in both of these posts. Kids can have emotional health problems too. No one understands me either if I don't take my anti-depressant. DD is an energy sucker and I have found that I have to just distract her instead of trying to talk things out, which almost always makes things worse.

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting so much that the child has emotional problems. Just that sometimes someone outside the situation can see clearly through the emotional stuff that has us hog-tied and blinded, and provide a way out of the mire.

 

When we had major issues (which seemed like big emotional deals) with our DS, the therapist mostly worked on our parenting of the situation, the solution looked a lot like what Danestress is suggesting. What fixed the entire situation, including his very strong emotive responses, was very firm boundaries.

 

But I'm not necessarily suggesting this because I do believe that the solution varies from family to family. It's just that an impartial person can help find that solution much quicker than trying to muddle through yourself when you feel frustrated and spent.

[Pippen]

Lest you say "she's 12" this has been an ongoing issue for many many years. Her brother acts this way too.

 

If this has been going on for years then I really think you need to be looking towards getting some professional help. A good book towards looking to which direction to go with that is:

 

"What Your Explosive Child Is Trying to Tell You: Discovering the Pathway from Symptoms to Solutions" by Dr. Douglas Riley

[lllll]

..

[nevergiveup]

Could be hormonal imbalance. I was a bear to be around at that age and I am sure that is what is was for me. You could try supplimenting with fish oil, chasteberry, vitamine D3. Couldn't hurt, might help. Depression sometimes manifests itself as anger, also.

[Oak Knoll Mom]

When you take six pages of notes on why a 12 year old hates you, you are sending a message that you deeply care about why she hates you and you deeply want to change whatever is bothering her. Why not just say, "Yeah, I remember feeling that way about my parents when I was your age. Anyway, that garbage isn't going to take itself out, so hop on it and then finish your math." Shrug. You are giving her complaints too much validity.

 

You have a life. Model that to these children. I can't imagine indulging a 12 year old's drama enough listen to 3 hours of talk and take notes unless we were in a counseling session. Yes, make them do what they have to do and make them do their school work. It's worth fighting for. But it's not worth 3 hours of conversation, and it sounds like you think talking (and listening) solves problems. Talking (whether it's you or your daughter) doesn't always solve problems. As an experiment, try reducing the talking you do with the child by half. Don't try to convince her of things. Just tell her "this is the way I want this to happen." Pick your battles, but win the battles you pick.

 

I had one who was more this way - he took so much energy and would just nag and harass me to tears. But it really did get better when I chose not to engage. Honestly, I found that just having a really good book helped. I just let him know how much more interested I was in the book than in arguing with him.

 

:iagree:

[KidsHappen]

Whenever we reach an impasse like this, I tell me children that I am doing the best that I can do and I can't do anymore than that. And then I ask them if they are doing the same. Finally, I ask them for what they think the solution would be and we agree to work on it together. I have had some major success with this method. Now, if I could just remember to use it more often. By the way, it was our counselor that taught us this and helped mediate the first few sessions.

[MorganClassicalPrep]

Just wondering if you had considered counseling. As a family and individual for the children who are having trouble.

 

I'm bipolar. NOT suggesting your daughter is, but sometimes it feels like I don't know my own opinion, don't understand even myself, and it frustrates me so much that I blow up on everyone else. I've gotten much more control over it as I've matured, but puberty and the teen years were ROUGH. I told everyone that I hated them, but really I hated myself. She could be suffering from depression.

 

Then again, it could just be teen angst, and they could be particularly tough children. Counseling could help that also, and at least rule out emotional disorders. Having a third party who isn't emotionally invested sounds like the best option at this point.

 

:grouphug: I hope you find a solution that works for everyone.

[Laurie4b]

guided? I think I have just snapped today. I feel like I am done. Two of my dc have me spent. I spend more time on managing them than on the rest of the family/home/and chores combined. I spend hours reading on how to parent them. And they are constantly at it with DH and I or with each other. DD spent hours today telling me everything she hates about me and her father and her brother and her life. I listened calmly and wrote it all down. She has said numerous times that I do not listen and do not understand. So I sat to listen and understand. Then she said that she cannot tell me how to understand her point of view because she does not know her own point of view but I still should know her point of view. Okay, when I do try to say "I think that you are feeling or thinking xyz" she then gets mad at me and tells me that I have no idea what she is thinking or feeling. I wrote down 6 legal pages worth of notes while she was speaking. After each note I asked her if I had correctly recorded her thoughts or feelings. She said yes and then I proceeded. When we got to the end she started crying and saying that the notes did not accurately reflect her thoughts and feelings. :001_huh: She wanted to tear up the notes. I said no calmly. For three hours I had been listening intently and confirming my notes to make sure that I was understanding.

 

Lest you say "she's 12" this has been an ongoing issue for many many years. Her brother acts this way too. The other two children are not like this at all. Easygoing, content, cheerful, helpful, etc. These two are also big liars. They try to cheat, sneak, tell half truths, and outright lie pretty regularly in spite of our many, many conversations, encouragements, and both positive and negative consequences, etc.

 

No matter what we do (activities, nice home, lots of attention and time with both parents, rewards for good behaviors, talking about actions, negative consequences for bad choices, etc.) they are dissatisfied with us, cannot stand each other, and cause chaos in our home. They suck all of our attention and energy while the other two wait patiently for us to be available.

 

I just feel like not parenting them anymore - at least not the way I have been. I feel like just leaving them to their own devices. Go ahead do not study, be nasty to each other, don't shower, don't participate in chores, be annoying to others until they do not want to be around you......... I will not correct you or scream or dole out consequences. No more trying to get them to do school or chores, no explaining the rules over and over, no anything. No stopping bickering, no stopping arguments between siblings, no asking for help. Again, nothing.

 

And focusing all of my energy and attention on the dc who do not think I am an ogre and actually enjoy my company and teaching.

 

Maybe it I just let them be the way they want to be it will turn out all right in the end. Or maybe they will be monsters but it does not seem that our efforts are making a difference.

 

I think you have the right general direction, but probably don't want to be that drastic as you're feeling right now of course.

 

I think you are correct: you should be spending more time with the kids who are rewarding your time and spend more time ignoring the kids who are not rewarding the time you put in.

 

I also think that at this point, it would be helpful to get family counseling. You've got two different kids doing this, two kids you feel like you're ignoring, and one parent at the end of her rope. I think having someone who is used to guiding families through change help you all do it.

[mcconnellboys]

I agree.