Lost Talk (there may be spoilers if you haven't watched episode 15)

[Karenciavo]

I have more sympathy for MIB/FLoke after last night. What a whiner Jacob was, Waaah! "I don't want to." Was that simply bad acting or what? And don't get me started on the Latin, could Allison Janney have sounded any more wooden as she spoke it.

[ChristusG]

Wow, that episode was SOOO good! I loved learning the back story to Jacob and the MIB.....which, they never even said his name! UGH!

[Moxie]

Wow, that episode was SOOO good! I loved learning the back story to Jacob and the MIB.....which, they never even said his name! UGH!

 

 

I agree! I thought it was awesome and answered lots of questions. I feel so bad for MIB. So since the MIB isn't actually the devil or some other kind of evil, do you think he can be reformed?

[TXMary2]

I like that we know they are brothers and that we know for sure who Adam and Eve are. However, there are now still more questions! What is that light? How did it turn him into the smoke monster? Is MIB the good one and Jacob bad? I am still LOST. lol

[Surlygirlie]

Yes, that episode was a disappointment. I think that when you get down to the nitty gritty of attempting to explain WHY, things can go very, very wrong with a show like this.

 

The only thing that I outright HATED about the episode was the heavy-handed use of the season 1 flashback in the cave when Jack and Kate found "Adam and Eve." I mean, c'mon, for a show that has a fanbase that is used to ferreting out clues and making connections, why oh why did the show have to basically kick us in the face with that scene? I pretty much figured out--before they showed that scene---that MIB and his mother were obviously going to be the two skeletons in the cave. Bleh.

 

I can't remember the exact wording, but didn't Alison Janney's character say something along the lines of "every question I answer will lead to another question," I think that was the writers little in joke that we just have to sit back and take what they dish out and stop expecting everything to be clear and understandable. On one hand I get it--there is no way that every element of mystery will be explained. Frankly, after this episode, the less they explain, the better it might be. :lol:

 

The only redeeming thing? Titus Welliver. Deep voice and piercing eyes? Yes, please. [/shallow]:D

 

I think I've said it before, I just am trying to get through the season for closure. Only two more weeks. Yay!

[elegantlion]

Not one of my favorite episodes. I wonder if this story was written when the series started or put together over the years. I did tear up when they had the flashbacks at the end.

 

I like the idea, and yes I think Jacob was whiny. I mean you think the island is IT, what else are you going to do?

 

What are the comparisons of Jacob & MIB to other sibling rivalry stories? Jacob & Esau, Cain & Abel, Romulus & Remus?

 

I guess I was expecting more story about our core Losties, not backstory. It was interesting to find the origin of it all, but it's really late in the game. I want to see more of the people I've grown to care about.

[TXMary2]

So Jacob killed MIB.....then the scene on the beach where MIB tells Jacob how badly he wants to kill him must have been before that. I wish that was explained more.

[kmacnchs]

So Jacob killed MIB.....then the scene on the beach where MIB tells Jacob how badly he wants to kill him must have been before that. I wish that was explained more.

 

I thought about that too...

 

Another thing - so when he had the talk w/Kate about a boy being raised by a crazy mother vs. a sane one, I always assumed he was the one who was raised by a crazy mother and Jacob was the one raised by a sane one...

 

You could argue the opposite or that they were BOTH raised by a crazy mother since he didn't leave until he was 13...hmm

[Moxie]

I like that we know they are brothers and that we know for sure who Adam and Eve are. However, there are now still more questions! What is that light? How did it turn him into the smoke monster? Is MIB the good one and Jacob bad? I am still LOST. lol

 

 

I don't think you'll get answers to these questions. They don't want it to be a sci-fi show but a character-driven show. We just have to accept that there is a beautiful light that is the source of the islands power.

[Chris in VA]

So Jacob killed MIB.....then the scene on the beach where MIB tells Jacob how badly he wants to kill him must have been before that. I wish that was explained more.

 

Yeah, that was weird. Allison Janey/Mom said she had made it that they couldn't hurt each other. Guess she meant itin the essence/spiritual sense, because Jacob sure did a number on his bro by shoving him "into the light." Maybe he just made MIB's body uninhabitable somehow. Weird.

 

Did anyone see the sneak peek? Jacob apparently needs the ashes from Hurley (that he took from Ileana's dead body). Maybe he needs them to reanimate his body or something.

 

Weird.

[ChristusG]

I actually liked that they flashed back to the scene in the cave with Jack and Kate. I can't remember all the episodes from all the seasons so I like when they help us along a bit. But when I saw it, I definitely remembered it.

[SproutMamaK]

No, the scene with the MIB & Jacob was when he was brining the Black Rock to the island (remember seeing the ship in the background?), which was after all this. My guess is that MIB is dead - but the smoke monster can make himself appear to be the MIB (and inherit that person's memories) the same way he can any other dead person on the island, a la Locke, Christian, Isabelle, etc.

[Chris in VA]

No, the scene with the MIB & Jacob was when he was brining the Black Rock to the island (remember seeing the ship in the background?), which was after all this. My guess is that MIB is dead - but the smoke monster can make himself appear to be the MIB (and inherit that person's memories) the same way he can any other dead person on the island, a la Locke, Christian, Isabelle, etc.

 

Ah, now that's interesting!

[Jkodman]

No, the scene with the MIB & Jacob was when he was brining the Black Rock to the island (remember seeing the ship in the background?), which was after all this. My guess is that MIB is dead - but the smoke monster can make himself appear to be the MIB (and inherit that person's memories) the same way he can any other dead person on the island, a la Locke, Christian, Isabelle, etc.

 

 

I agree with you. That would also explain why he has no name. He takes over the body of dead people so he is really not a "person". He is a creature created or let lose by the MIB entering of the cave. He then just took over the MIB's body and changes to various dead people.

[MelanieM]

I loved this episode!

 

So what time period were they originally from? The game was Senet, which was played in ancient Egypt, and the birth mother's hair was styled in an ancient Egyptian fashion (though that was typically a wig over a shaven head). Also, the mother appeared to be threading her legs when Jacob came back from visiting his brother. I can't find anything that says this was an ancient Egyptian practice... it appears to have started in India?

 

ETA: Ok, it was not ancient hair removal, but ancient yarn spinning! Which makes soooo much more sense! lol!

Edited May 12, 2010 by MelanieM

[BikeBookBread]

Regarding sane vs. crazy moms... Claire is crazy, Kate (as "adopted" Mom of Aaron) is sane. Sun is sane - is Sun's Mom crazy? Wasn't Jack's mom kind of crazy, or at least really, really needy? Hurley's Mom is sane.

[KidsHappen]

The things that worries me is that it seems like Jacob has done everything that he has without really knowing why. That means since he is the oldest character there and he doesn't have the answers to all the questions, we may not ever get the answers either because there is no one inside the story that knows them and can give them to us. That would NOT be a satisfactory ending.

[Surlygirlie]

The things that worries me is that it seems like Jacob has done everything that he has without really knowing why. That means since he is the oldest character there and he doesn't have the answers to all the questions, we may not ever get the answers either because there is no one inside the story that knows them and can give them to us. That would NOT be a satisfactory ending.

 

On one hand, I do agree that not having a kind of certainty to the Lost-verse would be a let down, but I do think that one of the numerous themes has been centered on faith. Perhaps it is enough that Jacob took his responsibility just as he did--who knows?

 

My biggest worry is about the core characters--the character arcs are my biggest love here--and what their ultimate fates will be. I was disappointed in the deaths of Sun/Jin so soon after reuniting, but I am not sure that a fitting tribute would be for them to somehow live on in the alternative universe either. Those two characters are Sun/Jin in certain respects, but not the characters that worked through their issues on the island. I guess I am saying that I don't feel as connected to these stand ins and my biggest worry is that the alternative-verse is going to be the final vision of these characters. Then again, practically everyone still on the island is dead, wounded, or discouraged--not much hope there either.

 

Maybe I don't know what I want. LOL.

[LynnG in Arizona]

No, the scene with the MIB & Jacob was when he was brining the Black Rock to the island (remember seeing the ship in the background?), which was after all this. My guess is that MIB is dead - but the smoke monster can make himself appear to be the MIB (and inherit that person's memories) the same way he can any other dead person on the island, a la Locke, Christian, Isabelle, etc.

 

You know, I agree with you overall. This is how I interpreted last night's episode.

 

However . . . if Smoky (which is evil "personified") did simply take the *form* of man-in-black, and if MIB was really and truly dead, then why did Jacob continue to interact with him? Why did they still sit around and play their senet game? And why are there so many similarities between Smoky and Man-in-black?

 

For instance, MIB was obsessed with getting off the island. So is Smoky. Also, Jacob/MIB's mother stated something very similar to MIB when she said, "They always come to the island and it always ends the same way . . ." Was it mere coincidence that MIB (who now appears to be Smoky just taking the form of MIB) echoed her statement almost word for word in his conversation with Jacob on the beach?

 

I'm confused. As usual, when it comes to LOST. ;)

[LynnG in Arizona]

Also, didn't MIB/Smoky say a few episodes ago that Jacob "made him that way"? That he was once a normal man?

 

But if Smoky is just taking the form of MIB, and MIB is really and truly dead, than those statements just make no sense.

[LynnG in Arizona]

Also, do you think they made Jacob/MIB's mom purposefully not age at all? I guess that makes sense; Jacob sure hasn't aged since drinking momma's special wine. ;)

[Chris in VA]

I think the explanation is this--MIB is most definitely Smokey--he has already self-defined as such. Smokey simply took the form of his own body, as he can appear as any dead body. But it isn't the same, of course--He lost the total integration with mind/body/spirit that humans enjoy (and often take for granted) when he became the Smoke Monster, which is his "true form" now. It is only the appearance of the body he takes, not the actual body.

[LynnG in Arizona]

I think the explanation is this--MIB is most definitely Smokey--he has already self-defined as such. Smokey simply took the form of his own body, as he can appear as any dead body. But it isn't the same, of course--He lost the total integration with mind/body/spirit that humans enjoy (and often take for granted) when he became the Smoke Monster, which is his "true form" now. It is only the appearance of the body he takes, not the actual body.

 

Well, we know that the entity who currently looks like John Locke (aka "Flocke") has defined himself as Smokey.

 

But is that the same entity who was originally Jacob's brother/MIB?

 

Or is MIB really and truly dead (just as John Locke is really and truly dead), and Smoky has simply taken the form of these two people?

 

See the difference . . . ?

[elegantlion]

Well, we know that the entity who currently looks like John Locke (aka "Flocke") has defined himself as Smokey.

 

But is that the same entity who was originally Jacob's brother/MIB?

 

Or is MIB really and truly dead (just as John Locke is really and truly dead), and Smoky has simply taken the form of these two people?

 

See the difference . . . ?

 

IMO he has taken their form and maybe their "light". It seems someone must be physically dead for him to claim them. But if it was the same MIB then his bones wouldn't have been found by Kate and Jack.

 

Maybe Jacob continues to treat Smokey as his brother because he had no one else for so long?

[Chris in VA]

I think, when Jacob put MIB's body in the light cave, the MIB's body died, and his spirit changed form. Smokey is MIB in the sense that he is still MIB w/o the body, but with a difference that only being in the cave could grant him--

Smokey/MIB does not reanimate a dead body (Locke is still buried) but assumes the form of the dead.

I don't think Jacob simply released an entity that was there in the cave, or that something TOTALLY new was created, but I do think something somewhat new was made--Smokey may now be a totally evil MIB. Maybe being in the cave strips one of any light/good, and kills the body. What is left is the dark side w/o a body.

 

IDK, but I guess we'll find out!

 

Well, maybe! lol

[stripe]

When was it supposedly set that people spoke Latin to each other?

 

I loved Claudia's dress and hair, but hated Mother's string thing on her hair. I was way too distracted by the way Claudia's tummy stayed the SAME SIZE before and after birth -- come on, not even a little bit of a reduction?

[MelanieM]

Here's my take on this whole island, MIB, smokey situation...

 

The woman that raised the boys was the keeper of the light. She found this other woman about to give birth, and she knew the baby was going to be her replacement to carry on caring for the island. (I think she was doing it for a very long time, which is why she thanked MIB when he stabbed her and released her from her "duties".) Then the baby turns out to be *two* babies, and those two boys split the role of keeper into two parts.

 

In other words, I think the woman was the smoke monster until MIB killed her (how else did she destroy everything while he was knocked out?), which he could do because he was a candidate. (Was Ben a candidate at any point? Wondering about the connection with him stabbing Jacob.) Then Jacob pushed him into the light which killed his body while integrating his soul into the smoke monster entity.

 

I think the resolution might be re-integrating smokey and the keeper of the island into one entity... perhaps putting the smoke monster back into the light... returning to peace?

[LynnG in Arizona]

Here's my take on this whole island, MIB, smokey situation...

 

The woman that raised the boys was the keeper of the light. She found this other woman about to give birth, and she knew the baby was going to be her replacement to carry on caring for the island. (I think she was doing it for a very long time, which is why she thanked MIB when he stabbed her and released her from her "duties".) Then the baby turns out to be *two* babies, and those two boys split the role of keeper into two parts.

 

In other words, I think the woman was the smoke monster until MIB killed her (how else did she destroy everything while he was knocked out?), which he could do because he was a candidate. (Was Ben a candidate at any point? Wondering about the connection with him stabbing Jacob.) Then Jacob pushed him into the light which killed his body while integrating his soul into the smoke monster entity.

 

I think the resolution might be re-integrating smokey and the keeper of the island into one entity... perhaps putting the smoke monster back into the light... returning to peace?

 

 

You make an excellent point. All of the humans were killed before we saw the smoke monster exit the light area.

 

It makes sense in some ways that Jacob's adopted mom was Smokey all along. But if Smokey is evil encarnate (as the producers have pretty much said), I'm not sure that fits. Sure, Jacob's adopted mom did a pretty evil thing in killing his biological mom. But she also clearly had plenty of good in her and was mostly a good mom to the two boys. Pondering . . .

[TXMary2]

Hahaha! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DcnB_WLXWo&feature=player_embedded

[teamturner]

Cute!!

[KidsHappen]

But she also clearly had plenty of good in her

 

OMG, I don't see that at all. :001_huh:

[Forget-Me-Not]

The only redeeming thing? Titus Welliver. Deep voice and piercing eyes? Yes, please. [/shallow]:D

 

Joining you in the shallow end of the pool!

 

I think the smoke monster pre-dated MIB and just took his form when Jacob shoved dead/unconscious MIB into the cave. I think the 'mother' was the smoke monster until MIB killed her.

 

And yeah, the pregnant belly thing bugged me too. But the whole birth scene bugged me. Pretty unlikely that Claudia would have CHOSEN the litho position to birth her babies given that she had complete freedom to move around and no medical team to put her feet in stirrups and pull a light down from the ceiling :glare: Claire's birth bugged me too. But I suppose I should be happy that they at least concede that women can safely give birth outside a hospital without a doctor yelling "Push! Push!" <----- tangent alert. I'll stop now :D

[LynnG in Arizona]

OMG, I don't see that at all. :001_huh:

 

Well, maybe you're right. I guess I was referring to the fact that she seemed to clearly love her sons.

 

But she really did some pretty heinous things last night:

 

 

• kill a woman after she just delivered twins

• severely injured her adoptive son with a rock

• wiped out an entire village for no apparent reason

 

Maybe the actress just seemed to invest a lot of humanity in the character. But you're right; I can't really think of why I necessarily thought she was good. Maybe I took her statements about wanting to protect the light at face value? Maybe she seemed genuinely remorseful before her terrible acts of violence? Or maybe that actress just somehow made her sympathetic to me . . . hmmm, more pondering.

[Karenciavo]

Hahaha! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DcnB_WLXWo&feature=player_embedded

 

:lol: That's funny. Jimmy Kimmel's love affair with Lost has led to many funny skits. I definitely plan on following up the Finale with Jimmy Kimmel Live.

[Dooley]

OK, no one has mentioned this - you know how Jacob and MIB always referred to each other as "brother"? Is there some relation to Desmond always using that word????

[MelanieM]

It makes sense in some ways that Jacob's adopted mom was Smokey all along. But if Smokey is evil encarnate (as the producers have pretty much said), I'm not sure that fits. Sure, Jacob's adopted mom did a pretty evil thing in killing his biological mom. But she also clearly had plenty of good in her and was mostly a good mom to the two boys. Pondering . . .

 

I think their mother embodied both the Jacob aspect and the Smokey aspect, and then the boys split those roles into two.

 

I think the writers are making the point that there is no such thing as good and evil, and that light and dark are naturally a part of all things. This is why someone can be seen as bad and yet do loving things (kill the boys' mother and yet raise them as her own, lovingly) and be seen as good and yet do bad things (grow up the boy who can't lie and who sticks by his mother no matter what, and then kills his brother in a fit of rage).

 

The spirit of the island is the spark that is at the heart of life. It contains the beautiful, glowing light... and the dark monster.

[stripe]

But I suppose I should be happy that they at least concede that women can safely give birth outside a hospital without a doctor yelling "Push! Push!" <----- tangent alert. I'll stop now :D

Yeah, who needs a doctor yelling "Push!" when you have a homicidal maniac yelling "Push!" -- one who won't even let the woman see her own kids before bashing her on the head. Sheesh. Hospitals look gentle by comparison! But hey, at least she died in the gorgeous dress! (snort)

[Jkodman]

OK, no one has mentioned this - you know how Jacob and MIB always referred to each other as "brother"? Is there some relation to Desmond always using that word????

 

 

Wow! Never thought of that. You make a good point.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Desmond also says, "See ya in another life, Brutha" . . . with a charming Scottish accent. :D

[Surlygirlie]

Desmond also says, "See ya in another life, Brutha" . . . with a charming Scottish accent. :D

LOL. Yes, it's the little things.

 

I saw this posted on a different site. It was in regards to growing feelings of disappointment with the show. I thought it was too funny not to share.

 

Yeesh. This is the episode where i'm really beginning to doubt that they know what they are doing. Well, 3 1/2 hours left, let's see what they can do with that.

 

My experience with LOST goes something like this....

 

.

 

LOST: So there's this Island, and it's special, see. Time travel, polar bears, whispers, smoke monsters...

 

ME: Tell me more.

 

LOST: Let's ask the Dharma Initiative! Mysterious group of scientists, led by Alvar Hanso, searching for some unfathomable secret, with all their cool, 1970s-era technology. Cool, right?

 

ME: Yes! But what is the secret they are after?

 

LOST: You should ask the Others, they know. The Others have been around forever. At first they looked like savages, but -- surprise! They have modern ways and means. New Otherton, Mittelos Biotech... yes, sir, the Others are where it's at. Ben is the leader and he knows everything.

 

ME: Great... so what does Ben know?

 

LOST: Huh? Ben? He's actually pretty in the dark. The real big dogs here are Widmore and Eloise! They have all the answers!

 

ME: Super. Let's have more Widmore and Eloise, then!

 

LOST: Sorry, no time for that. We're going back to the '70s, when the Dharma Initiative was still around. Neat, right?

 

ME: Very. So the Dharma Initiative, they were...

 

LOST: Uhhh... just some scientists, i guess. They wanted to harness the electromagnetic energy for research, time travel, that sort of thing. Anyway, they are scientists, based in Ann Arbor. That's about it.

 

ME: Oh.... so what about Alvar Hanso? He must have some grand design, right?

 

LOST: Who? Alvar what-now? Nah, look, i've just been messing with you. Let's cut to the chase, time is running out. It's all about Jacob and his brother, Smokey. They are immortal! They play an epic game! There are rules, candidates, loopholes! Everything that has happened so far is because of them! Jacob and Smokey!

 

ME: Great! Let's learn about them!

 

LOST: Well... Jacob is just doing what his mother told him to do. He doesn't know why, really. His mother's dead. Smokey wants to leave the Island. That's about it.

 

ME: That's it?

 

LOST: Well, there's this light, see, this golden light underground. It's all the goodness in the world. But it turns people bad. It kills you, or makes you live forever. Something. It must be forever guarded but never used. It's inside everyone but can't be touched. Light! Light! Pretty light!

 

ME: .....this is getting lame.

 

LOST: LOL, PARALLELUNIVERSE! EVERYTHING DIFFERENT! WHAT IF LOCKE HAD HIS DAD BUT HIS DAD WAS RETARDED? WHAT IF CHARLIE STILL DID DRUGS? HOW IS JACK'S BABY FORMED?

 

ME: >__<

[Mejane]

I think the writers are making the point that there is no such thing as good and evil, and that light and dark are naturally a part of all things. This is why someone can be seen as bad and yet do loving things (kill the boys' mother and yet raise them as her own, lovingly) and be seen as good and yet do bad things (grow up the boy who can't lie and who sticks by his mother no matter what, and then kills his brother in a fit of rage).

 

The spirit of the island is the spark that is at the heart of life. It contains the beautiful, glowing light... and the dark monster.

 

Nicely put. I agree.

[Lynn in WI]

Sadly, I think the writers have bitten off more than they can chew. The parody quoted a few posts up rings true--we've all experienced whiplash trying to keep our eyes on the moving target of who's important, who's got the answers, who's really in charge. I was looking forward to watching the older seasons again after the finale but now I'm wondering if it will even interest me.

 

I'd be nice to hear some Sawyer-isms again, I suppose.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Lynn in WI

[elegantlion]

Desmond also says, "See ya in another life, Brutha" . . . with a charming Scottish accent. :D

 

Yes.he.does!:D

 

After reading the skit I now have Bug's Life going through my head, "Don't look at the light!" :lol:

[staceyobu]

LOL. Yes, it's the little things.

 

I saw this posted on a different site. It was in regards to growing feelings of disappointment with the show. I thought it was too funny not to share.

 

 

I looooooove it! That is so how I am feeling right now!!!

[KidsHappen]

I have been incredibly disappointed in LOST this season. There is no character developement, no forward movement, no answers, nothing. Just more questions. We are running out of time and I just don't see how they are going to wrap it up to everyone's satisfaction. Very frustating. :glare:

[LynnG in Arizona]

I have been incredibly disappointed in LOST this season. There is no character developement, no forward movement, no answers, nothing. Just more questions. We are running out of time and I just don't see how they are going to wrap it up to everyone's satisfaction. Very frustating. :glare:

 

I agree to a large extent. I know the producers are taking a perverse pride in "not answering all the questions", and leaving some ambiguity . . . but if they do it too much, I really will feel like it was a cop-out in many ways.

 

Since Season 1, my worst fear all along was that LOST would end up with an utterly incomprehensible nonsensical ending like Twin Peaks. :(

[stripe]

Since Season 1, my worst fear all along was that LOST would end up with an utterly incomprehensible nonsensical ending like Twin Peaks. :(

I am so glad someone else mentioned Twin Peaks.

[LynnG in Arizona]

I am so glad someone else mentioned Twin Peaks.

 

Yeah, I don't think we're there yet . . . surely nothing could be that bad . . . but I am somewhat disappointed in all the dropped plots, false leads, etc.

 

I do still truly enjoy the show, and am hoping it will absolutely dazzle us during its final 3.5 hours.

[happyhomemaker25]

I think their mother embodied both the Jacob aspect and the Smokey aspect, and then the boys split those roles into two.

 

I think the writers are making the point that there is no such thing as good and evil, and that light and dark are naturally a part of all things. This is why someone can be seen as bad and yet do loving things (kill the boys' mother and yet raise them as her own, lovingly) and be seen as good and yet do bad things (grow up the boy who can't lie and who sticks by his mother no matter what, and then kills his brother in a fit of rage).

 

The spirit of the island is the spark that is at the heart of life. It contains the beautiful, glowing light... and the dark monster.

 

 

This makes sense when you think of the current characters. Most of them are good people who have done "bad" things either on purpose or on accident. They have light and dark in them.

[staceyobu]

Okay... DH was reading to me last night a theory that JACOB is 100% evil. He killed his brother. He brings people to the island and allows them to die. I don't think I buy that... but thought it was interesting.

 

Where's Ben at?